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Thread split from 'will to power': God's will, predestination, et al

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#51
Re: Enlightenment & The Will to Power

You said that only God knows whom (*glances over at Bronto*) he chooses.

Then you said that you know you have been chosen.

This means that you are either contradicting yourself, or you believe you are God.

If God has purposefully left the majority in dark and given a select few the ability to help them see the light, then quite frankly, God is an asshole and I want no part in his silly game of enlightenment.

Apatheism all the way. ^^
Well, you probably MISSED the CONTEXT.

Absurdity said:

I genuinely do not understand what the point of preaching to those who have not been so similarly chosen is.
To which, I responded:

God knows who he chose from before time began, but WE don't.

If we knew exactly who God chose, we would only preach to them. But God has NOT revealed that to us.

God says to preach the Gospel to all men everywhere. And those who are CHOSEN will believe, in due time.

Everyone else will not.

It's that simple.

Nobody was a BELIEVER straight out of the WOMB.

Anyone who comes to faith does so IN TIME, as the Gospel is REVEALED to them IN GOD'S WORD.
Now does that make more sense?


And I also said:

Yes. I DO know that I've been chosen.

I BELIEVE in Jesus Christ, and BELIEVE the Word of God, which CLEARLY says that BELIEVERS were CHOSEN in Christ from eternity.

Here's just a handful of Scriptures that declare this truth:


Rom 8:29-30
For whom He foreknew, He also predestinedto be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
NKJV

2 Thess 2:13
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
(NIV)

Eph 1:3-6
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace
NKJV

Eph 1:11
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will
NKJV
 

Grayman

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#52
@hawkeye

It depends on the person but many believe we are all given a choice to follow him and that Jesus died for all our sins, not just Wonk's sins. The bible does say that he gave his only son to the world and not to "Wonk and his followers".
 
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#53
@hawkeye

It depends on the person but many believe we are all given a choice to follow him and that Jesus died for all our sins, not just Wonk's sins. The bible does say that he gave his only son to the world and not to "Wonk and his followers".
You're wrong. Dead wrong.

If Christ died for ALL, yet SOME end up in hell, then that would make Christ a FAILURE. And that's IMPOSSIBLE.

You're just twisting the Scriptures.

For example, John 3:16 says:

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Now, that may APPEAR to YOU to say that Christ died for ALL. But then what do you do with passages like THIS:

In John 10:11, Jesus said:
“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
Then, in Verses 24-30, we read:
Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe.

The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.”
Now, does that sound like ALL are his sheep?

NO.

And if he lay down his life for the sheep, and NOT ALL are his sheep, then he DID NOT lay down his life FOR ALL MEN.

Case CLOSED.

And he didn't say "You are not my sheep because you don't believe."

He said "You don't believe because you are not my sheep."

The fact that they are NOT HIS SHEEP comes FIRST.

They were not ELECTED and PREDESTINATED to believe on him, THEREFORE they do not believe.

And that applies to ALL who DO NOT come to faith in Christ in this life--they are REVEALED to be REPROBATE, and NOT the ELECT.

FURTHERMORE, if a man came to God on his own merits, by his own wisdom and prudence, then God would NOT receive ALL the glory for that man's salvation. He'd have to SHARE the glory with that man.

And salvation would NOT be of GRACE, it would be of WORKS.

And the Scriptures plainly declare to believers:
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
ONLY those to whom GOD has CALLED out of DARKNESS will come to Christ and be saved.

Christ said, in John 6:37
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me,

and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
Therefore, if a man does NOT come to him, then it's absolutely clear that that man was NOT GIVEN to Christ by the Father.

And that's only a SMALL PORTION of Scriptures that proclaim this truth.
 
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#54
Ah, silly me. Yeah that makes more sense now. ^^

@hawkeye

It depends on the person but many believe we are all given a choice to follow him and that Jesus died for all our sins, not just Wonk's sins. The bible does say that he gave his only son to the world and not to "Wonk and his followers".
It's not really a choice though is it? If I choose not to follow it doesn't stop there. I will forever be pestered into changing my mind or face spending the rest of eternity in hell.

It's biased nonsense.

Preachers are like spoilt kids who can't take no for an answer. If Mum says "no", they'll go around them and ask their Dad instead.
 

Puffy

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#55
Ehh, the reason I don't like these fundamentalist strands is for reasons I was hinting at in PM.

God doesn't love you, He loves Himself and that which He makes like Himself. If He could see you He'd wish you dead as you're abominable to Him, thankfully(?) when He looks at you He's arranged means so that He can see Christ instead. He doesn't love any will or traits that originated in yourself, that which you could distinctly call "me" as opposed to "God." There is no such thing as love in this worldview, outside God's own self-love.

In any other situation we'd call a "personality" that operated by such means an abusive lover. I.e. someone who constructs their own ideal of the other and slowly breaks this person down over years, whittling all sense of self-respect until all semblance of their prior personality is gone. Abusive lovers don't love the other, they love the mould they push them through, getting them to conform to their plans. They breed self-hatred in their victims to make them do what they want.

Maybe this doesn't apply to all denominations of Christianity, I'm not anti-religious, but it's how I'd personally describe all of those I've encountered.
 
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#57
Ehh, the reason I don't like these fundamentalist strands is for reasons I was hinting at in PM.

God doesn't love you, He loves Himself and that which He makes like Himself. If He could see you He'd wish you dead as you're abominable to Him, thankfully(?) when He looks at you He's arranged means so that He can see Christ instead. He doesn't love any will or traits that originated in yourself, that which you could distinctly call "me" as opposed to "God." There is no such thing as love in this worldview, outside God's own self-love.

In any other situation we'd call a "personality" that operated by such means an abusive lover. I.e. someone who constructs their own ideal of the other and slowly breaks this person down over years, whittling all sense of self-respect until all semblance of their prior personality is gone. Abusive lovers don't love the other, they love the mould they push them through, getting them to conform to their plans. They breed self-hatred in their victims to make them do what they want.

Maybe this doesn't apply to all denominations of Christianity, I'm not anti-religious, but it's how I'd personally describe all of those I've encountered.
Puffy, what you're not getting is that the believer IS still a distinct personality from God. He DOES retain his INDIVIDUALITY. He is NOT an AUTOMATON.

The believer actually POSSESSES a NEW HEART which ACTUALLY LOVES GOD.

He LOVES God FROM the HEART, and is NOURISHED and PROTECTED and LOVED BY GOD in return.

It's a MARRIAGE.

God actually WOOS the believer.

Look at the story of Jacob and Rachel.

Look at at the Psalms.

Look at Song of Solomon, its a PICTURE of CHRIST and his CHURCH!

He's RAVISHED by his CHURCH! It amazing.

The believer is NOT BEATEN into submission, the believer is "drawn by cords of love, the Scriptures say. The believer FALLS in LOVE with the Savior, and WILLINGLY submits to him, just like a woman WILLINGLY takes a man as her husband.

You seem to take a very cold and mechanistic look at this covenant between God and his people which is simply NOT TRUE.

Believers dont just "dissolve" into God. They remain distinct persons.

You just don't get it.

Open your eyes.

Read the Scriptures and ask God for understanding.

He won't turn away ANYONE who comes to him for understanding.

And he won't turn away ANYONE who comes to him for mercy.

Jesus said, in John 6:37:

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me,

and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
 
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#58
Wonkavision is ESSENTIALLY conceding that, by our STANDARDS, God is a complete DICK. It is what IT is. There's no where ELSE to go with the DISCUSSION.

:rip:

(Did I do the CAPITALIZATION thing right?)
NO, I am NOT conceding anything of the sort. I am DECLARING that GOD is RIGHTEOUS.


And NO, you are NOT emphasizing the right words. ;)

It should have been:

"Wonkavision is essentially conceding that, by OUR standards, GOD IS a COMPLETE DICK. It IS what IT IS. There's NOWHERE ELSE to GO with the discussion."

lol. :D
 

Jennywocky

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#59
Hey, awesome, this thread just got real!

... I'll post more after I read it all. :cool:
 
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#60
Hey, awesome, this thread just got real!

... I'll post more after I read it all. :cool:
Alright Jenny,

Well, as I said to others in this thread:

Don't EXPECT me to READ or RESPOND to everything you post.

I've got a wife and three kids, and a full-time job and other responsibilities, so I will ONLY RESPOND WHEN and IF I have the time.

I will only respond to posts that I PERSONALLY DEEM WORTHY of responding to. That's my RIGHT.

If that's not acceptable to you, TOO BAD.

I've given you fair warning.

Proceed.
 

Jennywocky

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#61
Alright Jenny,

Well, as I said to others in this thread:

Don't EXPECT me to READ or RESPOND to everything you post.

I've got a wife and three kids, and a full-time job and other responsibilities, so I will ONLY RESPOND WHEN and IF I have the time.

I will only respond to posts that I PERSONALLY DEEM WORTHY of responding to. That's my RIGHT.

If that's not acceptable to you, TOO BAD.

I've given you fair warning.

Proceed.
Uh.... wth, dude?!

Why are you being such a creep to me, and you don't even know what I was going to post, or whether or not it would even be addressed to you? Take a chill.

TBH, about the only thing I thought of concerning you so far was, "I wish he'd stop SHOUTING by using CAPS all the TIME in his POSTS."

There. I hope that was short enough for you to devote a little energy to reading and that it didn't distract you from your family.

Couldn't it be that he just created a deterministic universe? If that where the case he hasn't willed anything apart from initial creation, though he would still be directly responsible for rape, murder, etc. assuming he is able to deduce from initial conditions. But rape, murder etc. are of minor importance, aren't they? I mean, seen in the context of the entire universe, stepping aside from our anthropocentrism, murder and rape is laughable. Yes, things that live die, and they do so in different ways, most of them unpleasant. Assuming that such things are bad is only us imposing our own value system to let it speak against god. Who are we to guess and/or to judge gods ethics, if he even have any such thing?
Consider the universe as a large painting, every single atom being the stroke of god. In this grand painting we occupy an infinitesimally small area, and from our perspective we sometimes don't like the looks of it (we see rape etc.) and we complain to god saying that something is wrong, that it simply "doesn't look right", but who are we to judge the painting? We have no access to the viewpoint by which we could judge the whole aesthetic of the picture. Perhaps these shades of grey and blue, revolting as they appear to us, are, all things considered, necessary elements in a picture nothing short of cosmic beauty.
 
Yes, where I identify with that is the sheer enormity of the universe, so that humanity is but a blip in the cosmic consciousness. Even on that level alone, it seems pretty incredible that violation of particular human statutes would result in something as incredibly insane as eternal suffering/damnation for much of a species.... although again, in the face of what goes on in the universe, perhaps that also is not much of a blip.
 
And no, we don't have a way to stand outside of any of it to observe.
 
Could one create life without death, and would that in any way be any 'better'? Could one create life without pain? Could one create life without suffering?
 
If a god exists, then by definition the universe could have been created in any such way. So why was this way chosen at all? What purpose does it serve? Is it possible to reach the desired outcome without death or suffering? What values did "god" prioritize?
 
But it is definitely begging the question, to assume that god exists and that god is sentient, so therefore there must be a "reason" behind the world being what it is.
 
Assuming that death is required, pain seems a necessity because it's the means by which we avoid things that prematurely ends our lives.
Agreed, it's a warning signal that contributes to maintaining life. It's interesting that death is inevitable, yet we have functionality to prevent us from dying as long as possible. If that's a matter of design, it seems that pain (with potential threat of death) is the sculpting force coloring life.
 
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#62
Uh.... wth, dude?!

Why are you being such a creep to me, and you don't even know what I was going to post, or whether or not it would even be addressed to you? Take a chill.

TBH, about the only thing I thought of concerning you so far was, "I wish he'd stop SHOUTING by using CAPS all the TIME in his POSTS."

There. I hope that was short enough for you to devote a little energy to reading and that it didn't distract you from your family.
It was just a general warning. As I said: I told everyone in the thread the same thing.

And besides, it was for the benefit of OTHERS that I said it. I could have just NOT said it, and it would have been no problem for me.

So I really don't know why you're taking it so personal. Except that it's probably your Inferior Fe taking over. No big deal. ;) We're still PALS. lol. :D
 

Grayman

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#63
Ehh, the reason I don't like these fundamentalist strands is for reasons I was hinting at in PM.

God doesn't love you, He loves Himself and that which He makes like Himself. If He could see you He'd wish you dead as you're abominable to Him, thankfully(?) when He looks at you He's arranged means so that He can see Christ instead. He doesn't love any will or traits that originated in yourself, that which you could distinctly call "me" as opposed to "God." There is no such thing as love in this worldview, outside God's own self-love.

In any other situation we'd call a "personality" that operated by such means an abusive lover. I.e. someone who constructs their own ideal of the other and slowly breaks this person down over years, whittling all sense of self-respect until all semblance of their prior personality is gone. Abusive lovers don't love the other, they love the mould they push them through, getting them to conform to their plans. They breed self-hatred in their victims to make them do what they want.

Maybe this doesn't apply to all denominations of Christianity, I'm not anti-religious, but it's how I'd personally describe all of those I've encountered.
I agree, so how should we deal with people who suffer from religious Stockholm syndrome? Reasoning with them goes nowhere. How do we stop their suffering and show them what real love and compassion is?
 

Jennywocky

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#64
So I really don't know why you're taking it so personal. Except that it's probably your Inferior Fe taking over. No big deal. ;) We're still PALS. lol. :D
1. If you have no idea why what you said such a dick move to me, and
2. how unwarranted and shocking your explosion was to me, and
3. now how doubly shitty your essentially blaming me / gaslighting me for your behavior is, and
4. how smileys don't make shitty comments any more palatable,

then your Fe doesn't even exist.

It's also laughable that you're even preaching about God and who will and won't go to hell, when your own treatment of others is so schizophrenic. If anything undermines your case, well, that's a great start.

No, we're not pals; and no, you don't need to continue the conversation.
 
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#65
I agree, so how should we deal with people who suffer from religious Stockholm syndrome? Reasoning with them goes nowhere. How do we stop their suffering and show them what real love and compassion is?
"religious Stockholm Syndrome"

That's clever.

But it seems that you are in denial about the fact that you are in bondage to sin and death. That you SYMPATHIZE with the DEVIL. That you defend your MASTER the DEVIL.

That you OPPOSE the Spirit of GOD.

You see,

Death is the wages of sin.

If you were not a sinner, you would not die.

But ALL MEN DIE, BECAUSE they are SINNERS.

And THAT is why Jesus Christ died--NOT because HE HIMSELF was a sinner, but because the sins of his people were made to be his own, by substitution.

And because he bore the wrath of the Father for those sins, the debt has been PAID, and his people are FREE from condemnation.

And as it is with Christ, DEATH CAN NOT HOLD THEM.

They will die, but they will be raised again unto ETERNAL LIFE, BECAUSE of their UNION with Christ.

But those who die without Christ will go to ETERNAL TORMENT.


So, you think you don't need Christ?

Here's a challenge for you: Try not to die.

Try to avoid God's condemnation.

If you can succeed at that WITHOUT CHRIST, then everything the Bible says is UNTRUE.

But if what the Bible says is TRUE, and you go out of this life without Christ, you will spend an eternity in Hell.


Come to Christ, and flee the WRATH of GOD.

Believe on Jesus Christ, and you WILL be saved.

Jesus said:

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out."


(John 6:37)
 
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#66
1. If you have no idea why what you said such a dick move to me, and
2. how unwarranted and shocking your explosion was to me, and
3. now how doubly shitty your essentially blaming me / gaslighting me for your behavior is, and
4. how smileys don't make shitty comments any more palatable,

then your Fe doesn't even exist.

It's also laughable that you're even preaching about God and who will and won't go to hell, when your own treatment of others is so schizophrenic. If anything undermines your case, well, that's a great start.

No, we're not pals; and no, you don't need to continue the conversation.
Jenny, I suggest you calm down.

You're making a fool of yourself.
 

Jennywocky

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#67
My impression of the whole grace vs works thing (since both arguments appear in the scriptures) seems to be that it's an unnecessary human binary equation that popped up in the attempt to rationalize God. If you force things into a binary, then you get rigid arguments that don't address all the issues.

The whole grace argument is that, if people are given the option of "true choice," then God is no longer sovereign and people theoretically can choose to follow God and be good people. If someone is capable of making 100% good choices, they don't need Jesus. But the Bible says all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. In fact, the Bible's promotion of the "fallen nature of man" means that people are tainted and that without God, they cannot be purified. God also cannot bear to be in the presence of sin, based on the old example of the Tabernacle (where those who were in God's presence or touched the ark would die), so therefore there is no way to be with God if you are fallen. Mankind needs to be saved = grace is mandatory.

But then, if that's the case, choice doesn't even really seem to matter much. God loves Jacob and hates Esau; God is picking and has predestinied his children for salvation. The deck is stacked; did you draw a long straw or a short one? Which would seem like a crap deal from a God who is supposedly all-loving, that He would damn any of his children/creation to eternal suffering. The Grace vs Works dichotomy (that either God chooses all those who will be saved and excludes others, vs people can "earn their way to God") makes no sense.

When paradoxes like this arise, the first question I ask is, "Is the binary pair here even accurate?" The contradiction likely comes in the cases themselves and needing to make each case so extreme, either/or in their foundations.

While it's still an assumption on my part, I can't understand relevance of a human life that DOESN'T mirror to some degree any potential "eternal life") (if one exists) and eternal significance. If such a thing does exist, and what you do in this life is relevant on the face of eternity, then shouldn't the principles here in this life reflect the eternal principles "god" would seek to foster?

So then I go back to various types of relationships I experience as a human. (Relationship with parents, relationship with children, relationship with lover, etc.) Obviously all have some degree of flaw in them because people are neither omniscient or omnipotent, but there should still be experiences and principles there that should be useful to parse what a relationship with a RELEVANT divinity should resemble.

It's not really a choice though is it? If I choose not to follow it doesn't stop there. I will forever be pestered into changing my mind or face spending the rest of eternity in hell.
Well, technically, it is a choice. (ha) But it's more like the kind of choice where the bad guy in the movie says, "Give me what I want, and I'll set you up; or you'll pay for defying me." One answer is loaded (serve me and be blessed, or deny me and suffer for eternity). There's obviously a "preferred" answer, and no real benefit choosing the other except to preserve one's integrity as a free agent. People, though, will often feel a compulsion to choose the latter; it's interesting how much human beings despise coercion levied against themselves.

God doesn't love you, He loves Himself and that which He makes like Himself. If He could see you He'd wish you dead as you're abominable to Him, thankfully(?) when He looks at you He's arranged means so that He can see Christ instead. He doesn't love any will or traits that originated in yourself, that which you could distinctly call "me" as opposed to "God." There is no such thing as love in this worldview, outside God's own self-love.
Nice distinction.

Yes, I remember reading it that way too at times. While people claim to have found a "personal God," the very way in the theology that he relates is the impersonal, at least according to salvation -- he sees Jesus, not you, when he looks at you.

Although I guess one can argue that applies just to "sin." When he looks at your "sin," he either sees the equivalent of the Passover blood masking your corruption or he just sees any darkness in you. Can we separate our "moral choices" from who we actually are, though? Don't our choices of priority matter in terms of our individualization?

To drift sideways a bit, this is the deal also with the whole "personal relationship with God" thing so highly touted today in Western culture. The whole theology is impersonal, but the relationship is supposedly personal? I wonder sometimes if it just seems personal because it's all viewed from the internal world of the human being rather than from "God's" perspective or from an external perspective; of course it feels personal, because people of faith automatically personalize their beliefs! They are the ones finding personal meaning in it. It doesn't mean the relationship is fundamentally personal, the human is just investing personally and reading the other person (AKA "god") as personal because of the lens they are using, when maybe there is no personal element.
 
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#69
So, you think you don't need Christ?

Here's a challenge for you: Try not to die.

Try to avoid God's condemnation.

If you can succeed at that WITHOUT CHRIST, then everything the Bible says is UNTRUE.

But if what the Bible says is TRUE, and you go out of this life without Christ, you will spend an eternity in Hell.


Come to Christ, and flee the WRATH of GOD.

Believe on Jesus Christ, and you WILL be saved.

Jesus said:"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out."
This is all relying on one massive assumption and therefore cannot be taken seriously. The bible is riddled with contradictions and much of the stuff written in there is not true. It is after-all a collection of stories that aim to provide a good way of living. The thing is, it is possible live the way the Bible intends without the requirement of a God. The Jefferson Bible removes a lot of the nonsensical bullshit like when Jesus dies, he stays dead.

God was added in as a safety barrier; someone/thing you can rely on always, yet never. People prepare for an afterlife because the thought of ceasing to exist scares them.

Death will eventually be killed off. Until then, people will hope and pray there is something beyond it.
 

Jennywocky

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#70
Couldn't help making that last comment could you? Learn some compassion.
Even just addressing my criticism instead of immediately gaslighting me out of the box would be appreciated. Examine his arguments there.

Apparently it's fine for someone to yell at a number of forum members post after post; but if someone else sounds angry when he erroneously takes a swing at them, it's "being emotional, oh, calm down, you look like a fool."

:confused:
 

Grayman

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#71
"religious Stockholm Syndrome"

That's clever.

But it seems that you are in denial about the fact that you are in bondage to sin and death. That you SYMPATHIZE with the DEVIL. That you defend your MASTER the DEVIL.

That you OPPOSE the Spirit of GOD.

You see,

Death is the wages of sin.

If you were not a sinner, you would not die.

But ALL MEN DIE, BECAUSE they are SINNERS.

And THAT is why Jesus Christ died--NOT because HE HIMSELF was a sinner, but because the sins of his people were made to be his own, by substitution.

And because he bore the wrath of the Father for those sins, the debt has been PIAD, and his people are FREE from condemnation.

And as it is with Christ, DEATH CAN NOT HOLD THEM.

They will die, but they will be raised again unto ETERNAL LIFE, BECAUSE of their UNION with Christ.

But those who die without Christ will go to ETERNAL TORMENT.


So, you think you don't need Christ?
Jesus said:
It's not denial. I was once a good christian and I believed in the same image you do of God. One day I asked myself "why do I believe" and instead simply citing the simple "because god chose me" answer, I dug deep inside and realized that I was driven by self preservation and selfishness. I feared death and suffering. When I realized these are ultimately selfish and impure reasons to love someone I decided to rip out that fear and trust that God would not let me fall in my faith. I trusted that I could love without the force of fear.

Ultimately my eyes had been opened to the fear tactics of the church and I began to see how different those tactics where compared to Jesus' tactics. You see, Jesus was against the same thing the church does today. Jesus promoted passion over the fear of law. Yet today the master of the church is fear. Fear is no longer my master. The church is ruled by pharisees who are blind to Jesus teachings. You are blind my friend. You are blinded by your fear. Let go and find love.

Long story short, your rants of my eternal suffering and death cannot change my heart.
 
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#76
It's not denial. I was once a good christian and I believed in the same image you do of God. One day I asked myself "why do I believe" and instead simply citing the simple "because god chose me" answer, I dug deep inside and realized that I was driven by self preservation and selfishness. I feared death and suffering. When I realized these are ultimately selfish and impure reasons to love someone I decided to rip out that fear and trust that God would not let me fall in my faith. I trusted that I could love without the force of fear.

Ultimately my eyes had been opened to the fear tactics of the church and I began to see how different those tactics where compared to Jesus' tactics. You see, Jesus was against the same thing the church does today. Jesus promoted passion over the fear of law. Yet today the master of the church is fear. Fear is no longer my master. The church is ruled by pharisees who are blind to Jesus teachings. You are blind my friend. You are blinded by your fear. Let go and find love.

Long story short, your rants of my eternal suffering and death cannot change my heart.
No, you did not believe in the same God I believe in. You believed in a God of your own imagination.

I did not write the Bible. I'm just telling you what it says, and that it's the truth.

JESUS does NOT have compassion on ANYONE BUT his people.

Everyone else is under the wrath of God.

Jesus said, John 3:17-18:
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

He who believes in Him is not condemned;

but he who does not believe is condemned already,

because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
JESUS said that. Not me.

And John the Baptist said of Christ, in John 3:35-36:

The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand.

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life;

and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
Isn't that CLEAR?

You THINK you're opposed to ME, but in fact, you're opposed to GOD.

I keep quoting the Word of God, and you keep making up things off the top of your head.

We'll soon find out which is true.

And I hope, for your sake, you come to an understanding before you die.

Otherwise, you will be cast into hell.
 
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#77
Let me know how that kind of behavior goes over with your wife.
She doesn't always like it, and she REALLY didn't like it at first. She resisted for most of our marriage.

But over time she's become aware that I'm looking out for her welfare.

She KNOWS now that I'd lay down my own life for her.

I've PROVEN it to her, over and over again.

That's how love works. my friends.
 
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#78
ha ha! Nice. :)

But really, I'm not talking down to anyone.

I'm simply telling you the truth.

You're just blaming the messenger.


Matter of fact, remember how Willy Wonka was pretty HARSH with Charlie at the end?

What was his motive?:

COMPASSION. LOVE. TENDER MERCY.

Charlie was the "apple of his eye".

THAT is how GOD relates to HIS PEOPLE.

Remember, he gave Charlie the whole factory.


But EVERYONE ELSE goes DOWN the CHUTE, like a BAD EGG.

You're either "Charlie" or "Veruca Salt."

"Charlie" or "Mike Teevee", "Augustus Gloop," etc,


There really is no in-between.


And at the moment, you're all acting like naughty little children.

Wise up, or it's a guarantee, you WILL pay the price.
 
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#80
ha ha! Nice. :)

But really, I'm not talking down to anyone.

I'm simply telling you the truth.

You're just blaming the messenger.
The way you are telling the so called truth is in a highly patronising manor. The blame lies with communication and therefore it is entirely the messenger's fault. ;)

Wise up, or it's a guarantee, you WILL pay the price.
No it isn't a guarantee at all...
 
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#81
The way you are telling the so called truth is in a highly patronising manor. The blame lies with communication and therefore it is entirely the messenger's fault. ;)
If that's the case, then ALL of God's prophets, and ALL of his apostles, and CHRIST HIMSELF, AND the Word of God, are ALL to blame.

After all, I'm just telling you what they said.

And I'm saying it in the MANNER in which they said it.

Read the Bible.

It's not flattering to the human ego in the least.
 
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#82
Does anyone really think they can have a productive discussion here? Wonkavision is just broadcasting. He's not interested in anything anyone has to say to the contrary.
You're right. I'm not the least bit interested.

My interest is in THE TRUTH. I'm not giving you my opinions.

And I'm not the least bit interested in yours.

There is simply TOO MUCH at stake to play games.


The fact is, you ALL have been warned.

And the GOOD NEWS is that some of you MAY YET be saved.
 

Absurdity

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#85
You're right. I'm not the least bit interested.

My interest is in THE TRUTH. I'm not giving you my opinions.

And I'm not the least bit interested in yours.

There is simply TOO MUCH at stake to play games.


The fact is, you ALL have been warned.

And the GOOD NEWS is that some of you MAY YET be saved.
This forum is for discussion. If you want to preach, make a blog.
 

Grayman

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#86
You're right. I'm not the least bit interested.

My interest is in THE TRUTH. I'm not giving you my opinions.

And I'm not the least bit interested in yours.

There is simply TOO MUCH at stake to play games.


The fact is, you ALL have been warned.

And the GOOD NEWS is that some of you MAY YET be saved.

Oh I get it! This is some elaborate joke and you are just mocking Christians with over exaggerated comments.
 
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#87
1 John 4:19

We love because he first loved us.
Right.

But WHO is that speaking about?

BELIEVERS, not UNBELIEVERS.

Look at it again.

It says:

We love Him because He first loved us.
So, do you love him?

If not, then the statement DOES NOT APPLY to you.

That's pretty clear.

You don't love HIM, and he doesn't love YOU.

It's that simple.

Case closed, that is, unless God saves you.

Then it applies.

Now do you see?
 
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