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Thread split from 'will to power': God's will, predestination, et al

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#1
Just checking....

We ARE talking about THE WILL IN GENERAL in this thread, aren't we?

I mean, if we are specifically talking about Nietzsche's conception of the "Will to Power" vs. Buddhist "ego-transcendence", then I don't really have much to say.

But if we're talking about human will vs. some other will, then I have LOTS to say.

I haven't even gotten to the so-called "paradox" of Freedom of the Will vs. Bondage of the Will, and free-will vs. predestination--which really is NO paradox at all.....


Is this getting too THEOLOGICAL?

if so, then I'll just bow out.
 
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#2
Re: Enlightenment & The Will to Power

Allow me to suggest a BIBLICAL example of how these two things can coexist, and in a VERY POWERFUL WAY.
1. GOD is ALL POWERFUL and ACCOMPLISHES ALL that he DESIRES to do.

Which doesn't include, you now, saving children from having their nails torn out and their limbs cut off in war. Nor does he care to prevent imprisonment, rape and abuse of children, babies.

Of course, that's perfectly reasonable. Humans have free will. It's not like, if I were a parent, I would stop my children from bullying other children. Because they have free will, so it would be nonsensical for me to intervene.
 
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#3
Re: Enlightenment & The Will to Power

Which doesn't include, you now, saving children from having their nails torn out and their limbs cut off in war. Nor does he care to prevent imprisonment, rape and abuse of children, babies.

Of course, that's perfectly reasonable. Humans have free will. It's not like, if I were a parent, I would stop my children from bullying other children. Because they have free will, so it would be nonsensical for me to intervene.
OK. So you're putting God on trial.

Not wise at all.

And if you think you are exercising your free will in doing so, think again.

God ordained that wicked men, by their own wicked wills, would put his Son, Jesus Christ, on trial.

And he ordained that wicked men by their own wicked wills, would crucify his Son on the cross.

And guess what?

They INADVERTENTLY DID the WILL of GOD.

They were nothing but HAMMERS and NAILS in the hand of Almighty God, and out of their wickedness, God builds his Church.

And the Church is Christ's BRIDE.

So those who OPPOSE the Church OPPOSE HIM.

And CHRIST will AVENGE his BRIDE. Mark it down.

And it's the same with ALL who ATTEMPT to OPPOSE HIM.

In the end, even the DEVIL is God's dog.

He can only go as far as the leash let's him.
 
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#4
Re: Enlightenment & The Will to Power

I'm fine with opposing those who let children suffer (God, if that wasn't painfully obvious)

*nod nod*

(Children used as example for being the obvious party that can't be said deserving of such abuse.)
 
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#5
Re: Enlightenment & The Will to Power

I'm fine with opposing those who let children suffer (God, if that wasn't painfully obvious)

*nod nod*

(Children used as example for being the obvious party that can't be said deserving of such abuse.)
Well, as long as you're fine with opposing God, then he will JUSTLY cast you into hell.

But if God, in his mercy, has predetermined to SAVE you, then HE'LL SAVE YOU, and you'll be GLAD that he did.

At the moment, you're like that bird in your avatar. You're on Death Row, with a noose around your neck.

The only hope you have is that your name is WRITTEN in the BOOK of LIFE, and that CHRIST put away all of your sins.
 

Absurdity

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#7
Re: Enlightenment & The Will to Power

Well, as long as you're fine with opposing God, then he will JUSTLY cast you into hell.

But if God, in his mercy, has predetermined to SAVE you, then HE'LL SAVE YOU, and you'll be GLAD that he did.

At the moment you're like that bird in your avatar. You're on Death Row, with a noose around your neck.

The only hope you have is that your name is WRITTEN in the BOOK of LIFE, and that CHRIST put away all of your sins.
I take it you are one of the chose few, then?
 
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#8
Re: Enlightenment & The Will to Power

You can smile all you want, but the world does NOT belong to CHAOS.

It belongs to GOD, and you need his MERCY before you die.

Isaiah 55:6-7
Seek the Lord while He may be found,
Call upon Him while He is near.
Let the wicked forsake his way,
And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
Let him return to the Lord,
And He will have mercy on him;
And to our God,
For He will abundantly pardon.
 

Absurdity

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#10
Re: Enlightenment & The Will to Power

Yes, I am.

I'm no better than anyone else. I am, by nature, a sinner.

But God graciously gave me faith to believe on his Son.
I genuinely do not understand what the point of preaching to those who have not been so similarly chosen is.
 
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#11
Re: Enlightenment & The Will to Power

I genuinely do not understand what the point of preaching to those who have not been so similarly chosen is.
But how on earth would I know WHO has been chosen and who has NOT?

Only God knows that.
 
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#13
Re: Enlightenment & The Will to Power

Well by that logic how do you know if you've been chosen?
No.

God knows who he chose from before time began, but WE don't.

If we knew exactly who God chose, we would only preach to them. But God has NOT revealed that to us.

God says to preach the Gospel to all men everywhere. And those who are CHOSEN will believe, in due time.

Everyone else will not.

It's that simple.

Nobody was a BELIEVER straight out of the WOMB.

Anyone who comes to faith does so IN TIME, as the Gospel is REVEALED to them IN GOD'S WORD.
 

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#14
Re: Enlightenment & The Will to Power

So you don't know if you've been chosen?
 

Latte

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#15
Re: Enlightenment & The Will to Power

If some are chosen to be sinners and some to eventually become believers and repent, from before time... then how is there any justice in anything your supposed God does?

How can you call anything God does just?

How is heaven and hell justice?

How is there any divine justice at all?
 
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#16
Re: Enlightenment & The Will to Power

So you don't know if you've been chosen?
Yes. I DO know that I've been chosen.

I BELIEVE in Jesus Christ, and BELIEVE the Word of God, which CLEARLY says that BELIEVERS were CHOSEN in Christ from eternity.

Here's just a handful of Scriptures that declare this truth:

Rom 8:29-30
For whom He foreknew, He also predestinedto be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
NKJV

2 Thess 2:13
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
(NIV)

Eph 1:3-6
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace
NKJV

Eph 1:11
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will
NKJV
 
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#17
Re: Enlightenment & The Will to Power

If some are chosen to be sinners and some to eventually become believers and repent, from before time... then how is there any justice in anything your supposed God does?

How can you call anything God does just?

How is heaven and hell justice?

How is there any divine justice at all?
The best answer I can give you is from Romans 9.

Verses 14-24
What then shall we say? Is God unjust?

Not at all! For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”


It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God?

"Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”

Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
BOTTOM LINE: God has the RIGHT.


And regarding Jesus Christ as the ONLY HOPE for SINNERS:, Verse 33:

As it is written:
“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”
It's GOD'S WILL.

And it's RIGHT, whether YOU agree with it or NOT.

There's simply NOTHING you can DO about it.

But if GOD is pleased to SAVE you, then you'll SEE that it's his RIGHT, and you'll LOVE him and give him all the praise.
 

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#18
Re: Enlightenment & The Will to Power

Would you then say it's accurate that the God you believe in is cultivating some people (the chosen) to develop towards some sort of ideal through having them experience life and then the other people are kind of there for the cultivation to be possible?
 

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#20
Posts moved into new thread, as I felt the topic had drifted enough from the OP to warrant its own topic.
 
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#21
Is God all powerful?

Does anything happen that does not abide by His will?
 
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#22
I BELIEVE in Jesus Christ, and BELIEVE the Word of God, which CLEARLY says that BELIEVERS were CHOSEN in Christ from eternity.
Is that all that is required? Can I be chosen too?

Seriously, is it that intuitive voice in the head, or that Feeling in the heart?

What leads one to know? and don't tell me jesus..
 

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#23
Re: Enlightenment & The Will to Power

Well, as long as you're fine with opposing God, then he will JUSTLY cast you into hell.

But if God, in his mercy, has predetermined to SAVE you, then HE'LL SAVE YOU, and you'll be GLAD that he did.

At the moment, you're like that bird in your avatar. You're on Death Row, with a noose around your neck.

The only hope you have is that your name is WRITTEN in the BOOK of LIFE, and that CHRIST put away all of your sins.
Why do you throw the stone? Why do you cast fear into those that are lost? Should you not comfort them and guide them into the understanding of Gods love? He said go and preach the good news. Do you preach the good news with a sword or with grace?

When Jesus spoke of choosing us. He did not mean that a few where selected out of the many to be saved. He meant that some of us were chosen to live in his time and follow him directly and then go and spread the news of his death. He was speaking to the disciples not every believer yet to come.

For he so loved the 'world'. He sent his son to die for everyone. We DO get to choose heaven or hell. It is free will and not predetermination because we can choose to accept the gift but the credit still goes to the giver and not the one who chooses to accept the gift, thus it is not by our works but instead the giver who is God.
 
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#25
Is God all powerful?

Does anything happen that does not abide by His will?
Yes. God is in absolute sovereign control over everything in existence.

NOTHING happens that was not PURPOSED by him. And nothing can change him or prevent him from accomplishing all of his will.

Here's just a handful of verses:

Psalm 115:3, "But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases."

Psalm 135:6, "Whatever the Lord pleases, He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps."

Dan. 4:35, “And all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, ‘What hast Thou done?’"

Psalm 33:10, The Lord nullifies the counsel of the nations; He frustrates the plans of the peoples.”

Lam. 3:37-38, "Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? 38Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both good and ill go forth?"

Deut. 32:39, "See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded, and it is I who heal; And there is no one who can deliver from My hand."


Rom. 9:18, "So thenHe has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires."
 
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#26
Re: Enlightenment & The Will to Power

Would you then say it's accurate that the God you believe in is cultivating some people (the chosen) to develop towards some sort of ideal through having them experience life and then the other people are kind of there for the cultivation to be possible?
God is not cultivating anyone. He's only saving and damning people.

And he does not settle for an IDEAL, he DEMANDS PERFECTION.

Therefore, Christ became a man and lived a perfect, sinless life as the Substitute for his people. His perfection became theirs, and their sins became his on the cross.
He endured the wrath of God the Father and paid the redemption price in full. So now, there is no condemnation for them.

Furthermore, he gives them his Holy Spirit, who regenerates the chosen sinner, giving them life and faith and UNION with Christ. And through this union with Christ, they have his perfect righteousness as their own, meeting God's standard of perfection, and making them JUSTIFIED in the sight of God.
 
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#27
Is that all that is required? Can I be chosen too?

Seriously, is it that intuitive voice in the head, or that Feeling in the heart?

What leads one to know? and don't tell me jesus..
It's simply BELIEVING what the Word of God says.

The Scriptures are PLAIN and EASY to understand, insofar as basic reading comprehension goes. As long as it's not being INTENTIONALLY DISTORTED, which it often IS, even a CHILD can UNDERSTAND it.

But, because of man's natural RESISTANCE to and HATRED of God, it is a supernatural working of the Holy Spirit which makes a man SUBMIT to God and place his HOPE in Christ.
 

Latte

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#28
If it's not in order to create and cultivate minds for some purpose, why would/did God create this system/arrangement/universe you speak of?

What makes God want to have willed this reality and system into existence? If we are central to it, what is it about us that is important enough to God for God to have created us and all around us?
 
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#29
wonkavision said:
Yes. God is in absolute sovereign control over everything in existence.

NOTHING happens that was not PURPOSED by him. And nothing can change him or prevent him from accomplishing all of his will.
Okay thanks.

So God is responsible for murder, torture, rape, molestation, child abuse etc.

wonkavision said:
The Scriptures are PLAIN and EASY to understand, insofar as basic reading comprehension goes. As long as it's not being INTENTIONALLY DISTORTED, which it often IS, even a CHILD can UNDERSTAND it.
Hang on. If we don't understand it, that's God's will - remember?

Nothing happens that wasn't purposed by him, so if I choose to think scripture is a load of rubbish, it's purposed by God.

Which begs the question - why would God create people that can't understand scripture and then punish them for not understanding scripture? Again, please don't blame me for not understanding this on my own, that's God's fault because:

wonkavision said:
God is in absolute sovereign control over everything in existence.
So if man has a hatred of God, and God made everything and controls everything, who really hates God here?
 
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#30
Re: Enlightenment & The Will to Power

Why do you throw the stone? Why do you cast fear into those that are lost? Should you not comfort them and guide them into the understanding of Gods love? He said go and preach the good news. Do you preach the good news with a sword or with grace?

When Jesus spoke of choosing us. He did not mean that a few where selected out of the many to be saved. He meant that some of us were chosen to live in his time and follow him directly and then go and spread the news of his death. He was speaking to the disciples not every believer yet to come.

For he so loved the 'world'. He sent his son to die for everyone. We DO get to choose heaven or hell. It is free will and not predetermination because we can choose to accept the gift but the credit still goes to the giver and not the one who chooses to accept the gift, thus it is not by our works but instead the giver who is God.
Nothing you're saying has anything to do with what the Scriptures actually say.
That's just a mixture of different false doctrines you've picked up from others, mixed with "common sense" and your own foolish desires.

To comfort those who don't know Christ is to LIE to them and give them FALSE HOPE.

There IS NO HOPE for a sinner BUT Christ.


I'm not throwing stones, I'm telling the truth.

The Good News is that Christ has redeemed his people by his sin-atoning death, burial and resurrection. And ALL THOSE for whom he died will be saved.

But that's not good news for those whom he did not die for. It's VERY BAD NEWS for them.

Anyone who does not yet know Christ OUGHT to be filled with fear.

But anyone who believes in him has NO reason to fear. He has accomplished their eternal salvation.

In order to believe in him, you have to know who he is, and the only revelation we have of him is in God's Word.

Those who seek him some other way only do so in vain.

A sinner MUST come to CHRIST, as revealed in God's Word.
 
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#31
If it's not in order to create and cultivate minds for some purpose, why would/did God create this system/arrangement/universe you speak of?

What makes God want to have willed this reality and system into existence? If we are central to it, what is it about us that is important enough to God for God to have created us and all around us?
Who said that WE are central to it?

GOD is the CENTER of all things, not man.

THAT is the KEY to understanding the truth.

GOD is the CENTER, not man!
 
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#32
Re: Enlightenment & The Will to Power

Nothing you're saying has anything to do with what the Scriptures actually say.
That's just a mixture of different false doctrines you've picked up from others, mixed with "common sense" and your own foolish desires.

To comfort those who don't know Christ is to LIE to them and give them FALSE HOPE.
You didn't ANSWER his QUESTION
 

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#33
Re: Enlightenment & The Will to Power

I'm fine with opposing those who let children suffer (God, if that wasn't painfully obvious)

*nod nod*

(Children used as example for being the obvious party that can't be said deserving of such abuse.)
This is why I 'have' considered myself agnostic as I am left with the choice to believe in a cruel god or that god does not exist. In my halfway decent heart I cannot follow a god that lets people suffer. I do not believe in judgment as an eye for an eye but instead as a way to protect and to teach those who do not understand right from wrong or are simply stricken with the ability to empathize.

Perhaps I do not understand God's ways. Perhaps I am misunderstanding the situation. I trust that if this is the case then a loving god will understand my heart and abstain from undue judgment.

I also believe that Paul has created a cornerstone 'that allowed' corruption of church. The roman empire changed the idea of Jesus into a organization of control and social structure instead of the ideals that what was Jesus and all that he is supposed to be. This corrupt structure has carried on today.

It is odd that they believe that forgiveness was granted through his death and not in his what was the entirety of his life. He showed us the ideals that are our most positive traits in humanity. Is that not a better gift than a death? Is it not true that two wrongs do not make a right? How does killing the most innocent man in the world make things right? Is it not wrong to kill. Is it not worse that the man is supposedly Gods son? If anything, that should have condemned us. No!, I choose to believe Jesus lived so that we could know how to live. He was our guiding light as it is said in the bible.
 
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#34
Okay thanks.

So God is responsible for murder, torture, rape, molestation, child abuse etc.



Hang on. If we don't understand it, that's God's will - remember?

Nothing happens that wasn't purposed by him, so if I choose to think scripture is a load of rubbish, it's purposed by God.

Which begs the question - why would God create people that can't understand scripture and then punish them for not understanding scripture? Again, please don't blame me for not understanding this on my own, that's God's fault because:



So if man has a hatred of God, and God made everything and controls everything, who really hates God here?

The answer to all of the above is in Romans, Chapter 9.

I already quoted it, but I will quote it once again.

Verses 14-24
What then shall we say? Is God unjust?

Not at all! For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”


It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God?

"Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”

Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
BOTTOM LINE: God has the RIGHT.


And regarding Jesus Christ as the ONLY HOPE for SINNERS:, Verse 33:

As it is written:
“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”
It's GOD'S WILL.

And it's RIGHT, whether YOU agree with it or NOT.

There's simply NOTHING you can DO about it.

But if GOD is pleased to SAVE you, then you'll SEE that it's his RIGHT, and you'll LOVE him and give him all the praise.
 

Latte

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#35
Who said that WE are central to it?

GOD is the CENTER of all things, not man.

THAT is the KEY to understanding the truth.

GOD is the CENTER, not man!
It would be nice if you reread the post and understand how it didn't say God is not the center of all things or anything incompatible with God being the center of all things and then respond : )
 
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#36
It would be nice if you reread the post and understand how it didn't say God is not the center of all things or anything incompatible with God being the center of all things and then respond : )
I was responding to this:

If it's not in order to create and cultivate minds for some purpose, why would/did God create this system/arrangement/universe you speak of?

What makes God want to have willed this reality and system into existence? If we are central to it, what is it about us that is important enough to God for God to have created us and all around us?
Perhaps I misunderstood you, but I thought you were assuming that we (humans) are central to this "reality and system".
 
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#37
Re: Enlightenment & The Will to Power

You didn't ANSWER his QUESTION
I don't have the time to address ALL of the numerous errors and erroneous assumptions in his post.

And there are a bunch of other people asking me questions as well.

And I have a wife and 3 kids and a full-time job on top of that.

So, if you expect me to respond to EVERYTHING in this thread you are just being unreasonable.

I'm simply NOT going to respond to EVERYTHING. End of story.
 
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#38
Re: Enlightenment & The Will to Power

This is why I 'have' considered myself agnostic as I am left with the choice to believe in a cruel god or that god does not exist. In my halfway decent heart I cannot follow a god that lets people suffer. I do not believe in judgment as an eye for an eye but instead as a way to protect and to teach those who do not understand right from wrong or are simply stricken with the ability to empathize.

Perhaps I do not understand God's ways. Perhaps I am misunderstanding the situation. I trust that if this is the case then a loving god will understand my heart and abstain from undue judgment.

I also believe that Paul has created a cornerstone 'that allowed' corruption of church. The roman empire changed the idea of Jesus into a organization of control and social structure instead of the ideals that what was Jesus and all that he is supposed to be. This corrupt structure has carried on today.

It is odd that they believe that forgiveness was granted through his death and not in his what was the entirety of his life. He showed us the ideals that are our most positive traits in humanity. Is that not a better gift than a death? Is it not true that two wrongs do not make a right? How does killing the most innocent man in the world make things right? Is it not wrong to kill. Is it not worse that the man is supposedly Gods son? If anything, that should have condemned us. No!, I choose to believe Jesus lived so that we could know how to live. He was our guiding light as it is said in the bible.
Yes, you clearly do not understand God's ways.

But you are STILL without excuse.

Unless God BRINGS you to an understanding, you will be JUSTLY CONDEMNED by God.

I suggest you do ALL that is within the means God has given you to SEARCH OUT an understanding of his ways.

If Christ is NOT your SAVIOR, you will perish in your sins and go to hell.

That's the truth.

I can link you to sermons and other resources. But only if you ASK me for it.

I'll be glad to point you in the right direction, but it's up to YOU to request it from me.

I wish you the best.
 
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#39
Well, folks, I have OTHER business to tend to right now.

Perhaps I will be back again soon. Perhaps not.

If you EXPECT me to respond to your posts, I suggest that you don't even bother.

I will respond ONLY when and if I am able.

Take it or leave it.

Good night.
 
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#40
The answer to all of the above is in Romans, Chapter 9.

I already quoted it, but I will quote it once again.

Verses 14-24
You've been brainwashed taught to reflexively respond to criticism by touting irrelevant biblical versus. How cute.

Still doesn't address the fact that if God controls everything, he willingly allows rape, murder, torture etc. Worse still is that if everything is governed by his will - he doesn't just allow, but wills these things to happen.

“Every atom in your body came from a star that exploded. And, the atoms in your left hand probably came from a different star than your right hand. It really is the most poetic thing I know about physics: You are all stardust. You couldn’t be here if stars hadn’t exploded, because the elements - the carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, iron, all the things that matter for evolution and for life - weren’t created at the beginning of time. They were created in the nuclear furnaces of stars, and the only way for them to get into your body is if those stars were kind enough to explode. So, forget Jesus. The stars died so that you could be here today.”

― Lawrence M. Krauss
 

Latte

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#41
I was responding to this:



Perhaps I misunderstood you, but I thought you were assuming that we (humans) are central to this "reality and system".
Hmm, I'll elaborate ~

I mean this specific universe that God created, knowing full well how it would be. That we are a species whose affairs and whose minds(souls) get special attention. That the universe he created has enough do with us that we must as such be part of the reason he created it. That there is a special other-verse for which souls who fit certain criteria is welcome after their demise in this one.

There must be a function or reason for God to will this into existence. For us and our reality to be a part of God and creation.

God could have created anything or nothing, for God is all-powerful. But we and our environment is something he wishes to have exist. How come?

Note: Your particular theological view is rare for me to come across in people and the responses are interesting, which I think is why I ask you questions. I want to understand your full system of metaphysics and the axioms that are its foundation.
 

Grayman

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#42
Re: Enlightenment & The Will to Power

Yes, you clearly do not understand God's ways.

But you are STILL without excuse.

Unless God BRINGS you to an understanding, you will be JUSTLY CONDEMNED by God.

I suggest you do ALL that is within the means God has given you to SEARCH OUT an understanding of his ways.

If Christ is NOT your SAVIOR, you will perish in your sins and go to hell.

That's the truth.

I can link you to sermons and other resources. But only if you ASK me for it.

I'll be glad to point you in the right direction, but it's up to YOU to request it from me.

I wish you the best.
You cannot offer me help because you cannot help yourself, but I thank you for the considerate offer. Fear will never be my master as it seems to be yours.
 

Grayman

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#43
God could have created anything or nothing, for God is all-powerful. But we and our environment is something he wishes to have exist. How come?
For the same reason we find life important to us. Illogical subjective reasoning.

So lets not 'logic' it too much ;)
 

kantor1003

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#45
Still doesn't address the fact that if God controls everything, he willingly allows rape, murder, torture etc. Worse still is that if everything is governed by his will - he doesn't just allow, but wills these things to happen.
Couldn't it be that he just created a deterministic universe? If that where the case he hasn't willed anything apart from initial creation, though he would still be directly responsible for rape, murder, etc. assuming he is able to deduce from initial conditions. But rape, murder etc. are of minor importance, aren't they? I mean, seen in the context of the entire universe, stepping aside from our anthropocentrism, murder and rape is laughable. Yes, things that live die, and they do so in different ways, most of them unpleasant. Assuming that such things are bad is only us imposing our own value system to let it speak against god. Who are we to guess and/or to judge gods ethics, if he even have any such thing?
Consider the universe as a large painting, every single atom being the stroke of god. In this grand painting we occupy an infinitesimally small area, and from our perspective we sometimes don't like the looks of it (we see rape etc.) and we complain to god saying that something is wrong, that it simply "doesn't look right", but who are we to judge the painting? We have no access to the viewpoint by which we could judge the whole aesthetic of the picture. Perhaps these shades of grey and blue, revolting as they appear to us, are, all things considered, necessary elements in a picture nothing short of cosmic beauty.

Could one create life without death, and would that in any way be any 'better'? Could one create life without pain? Could one create life without suffering?
Assuming that death is required, pain seems a necessity because it's the means by which we avoid things that prematurely ends our lives.
 

kantor1003

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#46
Re: Enlightenment & The Will to Power

I can link you to sermons and other resources. But only if you ASK me for it.

I'll be glad to point you in the right direction, but it's up to YOU to request it from me.

I wish you the best.
Well, isn't this an easy way to put yourself on the pedestal? Not only shamelessly flaunting your belief like it's somehow different from any other belief, but expecting us to bow to your feet and ask you for help? Wouldn't that make you feel good, to have us come to you and ask you for help?
You are the means by which we can escape divine punishment!

But no, luckily, to get in that kind of position (people asking you for help) more than holding a certain belief is required. It isn't that easy unless you are catering to the sick and hopelessly troubled souls, and I hope you never get in a position where you can take advantage of them as fuel to your own sense of self-worth.
 

Latte

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#47
For the same reason we find life important to us. Illogical subjective reasoning.

So lets not 'logic' it too much ;)
Do you mean God has something similar to having a want or need to experience or incorporate certain things?

In this case, one of these things being us, this universe and what its existence makes possible.

This prompts another questions that seems kind of like it has an evident implicational yes answer.
Is God subservient to the nature of God? Aligned with the will of God, so to speak. But unlike humans, cannot be anything but aligned with the will of God. Does the will of God "ever" "change" in some respect? I recognize a concept of change that doesn't hinge on spacetime would probably be more suited to the idea of change in the case of Christian concepts of God.
 
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#48
Re: Enlightenment & The Will to Power

You said that only God knows whom (*glances over at Bronto*) he chooses.

Then you said that you know you have been chosen.

This means that you are either contradicting yourself, or you believe you are God.

If God has purposefully left the majority in dark and given a select few the ability to help them see the light, then quite frankly, God is an asshole and I want no part in his silly game of enlightenment.

Apatheism all the way. ^^
 
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#49
Hmm, I'll elaborate ~

I mean this specific universe that God created, knowing full well how it would be. That we are a species whose affairs and whose minds(souls) get special attention. That the universe he created has enough do with us that we must as such be part of the reason he created it. That there is a special other-verse for which souls who fit certain criteria is welcome after their demise in this one.

There must be a function or reason for God to will this into existence. For us and our reality to be a part of God and creation.

God could have created anything or nothing, for God is all-powerful. But we and our environment is something he wishes to have exist. How come?

Note: Your particular theological view is rare for me to come across in people and the responses are interesting, which I think is why I ask you questions. I want to understand your full system of metaphysics and the axioms that are its foundation.
Ok. Let me explain it this way:

God is completely self-sufficient. He doesn't NEED anything. But he IS an actual personality, not just an idea or a force of some kind.

And God ELECTED, by his own sovereign will, to create this world FOR HIS OWN GLORY. The same way an artist creates a work of art, God created this whole universe as an expression of who he is.

And part of that created order is mankind.

Man was created to enjoy God and his creation, and it is proper and fitting for man to give God GLORY for all the things he has blessed him with, and to obey whatever God commands him to do or not do. After all, man owes his entire EXISTENCE to God.

The first man, Adam, and his wife, Eve, were in a state of innocence at first. Then God told Adam not to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, lest he would die.

Adam disobeyed God and the result was death. Not immediate death, but the slow decay and process of death that the whole human race now experiences all throughout their lives. Death would not have existed had sin not entered the world.

Neither would rape, murder, and all the other horrible things people keep mentioning in this thread exist, had SIN not entered the world.

And the curse of sin doesn't happen in a vacuum either. It AFFECTS and INFECTS everything in sight, like a cancer or a virus.

All the problems in the world are a direct result of DISOBEYING God.

GOD is not to blame, MAN is to blame.

God is HOLY and he DEMANDS PERFECT RIGHTEOUSNESS. But he KNOWS we are not CAPABLE of performing it.

That's why he sent his Son, to establish a perfect righteousness ON BEHALF of chosen sinners.

Why "chosen sinners" and not ALL men?

Because God ELECTED to do it that way. That's all.

He could have saved the whole human race if he wanted to, but he didn't.

He could have prevented the fall of Adam if he wanted to, but he didn't.

God has CHOSEN to do it this way, and he WILL be glorifed, whether in casting a man JUSTLY into hell, or saving a man according to his own purpose and grace in Jesus Christ.

And ALL that GOD DEMANDS is that a man be HONEST about his own SIN. To confess one's own sin and seek MERCY from God, through his Son, Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 1:18

“Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the Lord,
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
They shall be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They shall be as wool."
Is that not reasonable?


CHRIST is the way, the truth, and the life.

He is God in human flesh. The ONLY salvation for sinners.

If one wants to be reconciled to God, then CHRIST is the ONLY WAY.

There is a lot more I could tell you if you're interested. But I'm trying to keep it as simple as possible.

Bottom line is this:

The Bible DOES say that mankind is made in the image of God, and has been given legitimate authority over the things on the earth, by God himself.

But NOWHERE does it even REMOTELY suggest that we have USURPED the authority of GOD.
We are still under HIS authority.

And if we refuse to obey his will, we should EXPECT to be under his WRATH.

And whether we like it or not, we ARE under his wrath because of SIN, and the ONLY ESCAPE from his wrath is THROUGH CHRIST.

Through UNION with him, in his ATONING DEATH, BURIAL, and RESSURRECTION, our sins are completely forgiven.
And when God gives us his Holy Spirit, and the FAITH to BELIEVE on his Son, we possess eternal life and are FREE from all condemnation.

If you die without Christ, you will have to spend eternity in hell, because your DEBT to God can NEVER be paid.

But if, in THIS life, you receive salvation in Christ, you are FREE from your debt, and are RECONCILED to God.
You have PEACE with God and the forgiveness of sins.

Come to Christ, and flee God's wrath.

He WILL save ALL those who come to him.

John 6:35-40
And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Matthew 11:25-30
At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes.
Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
 

Grayman

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#50
Re: Enlightenment & The Will to Power

You said that only God knows whom (*glances over at Bronto*) he chooses.

Then you said that you know you have been chosen.

This means that you are either contradicting yourself, or you believe you are God.

If God has purposefully left the majority in dark and given a select few the ability to help them see the light, then quite frankly, God is an asshole and I want no part in his silly game of enlightenment.

Apatheism all the way. ^^

He is trying to imply that God decided awhile ago but then reveals to those that are selected when they are ready. He thinks he only knows because God revealed it is so.
 
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