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Thoughts (Questions, really) On Forms of Energy

Cassandra

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PEOPLE WHO KNOW THINGS: Answer questions.

Heat = Kinetic Energy...in particles (usually, it is refered to as such)

however, I was talking with my physics teacher about the definition of "heat energy" and if large things (imagine a boulder) with kinetic energy could be termed to also have heat energy...even though this is not how one would normally refer to it.

<Note...this probably makes no sense..I have not worked out how I wish to convey it>

...

Light Energy is not Heat/Kinetic Energy...however, when it hits something, it becomes heat/kinetic energy by way of transfering its energy

...

What type (or types) of energy is (are) created by a nuclear reaction, such as those in the sun? I know it produces light... and that light is really electrons becoming excited to upper orbital levels...but does it produce any other kinds of energy?

How many types of energy are there?
Can they all be translated to one another directly, or do some have to go thorugh an additional form (the point B between A and C) to get there?
 

Agent Intellect

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PEOPLE WHO KNOW THINGS: Answer questions.

Heat = Kinetic Energy...in particles (usually, it is refered to as such)

however, I was talking with my physics teacher about the definition of "heat energy" and if large things (imagine a boulder) with kinetic energy could be termed to also have heat energy...even though this is not how one would normally refer to it.

Heat is the amount of energy per particle in a system - it's the sum of all the energy, and every particle above absolute zero has energy. Temperature is the average heat in a system, so add the energy of each particle and then divide by the number of particles



Light Energy is not Heat/Kinetic Energy...however, when it hits something, it becomes heat/kinetic energy by way of transfering its energy

Heat can travel as light - infrared light. We just can't see it (it's not in the visible spectrum).

Energy is simply the ability to do work, and when a particle is excited from more energy, it's doing more work (translational, rotational, and vibrational motion). All energy will act to cause motion within the particles of a substance.

Light energy has to do with it's frequency - the higher the frequency, the more energy. When light hits something, as in the photoelectric affect, it's frequency is decreased dependently with the motion of the electron (and if the energy is high enough, it'll send the electron flying).


What type (or types) of energy is (are) created by a nuclear reaction, such as those in the sun? I know it produces light... and that light is really electrons becoming excited to upper orbital levels...but does it produce any other kinds of energy?

A nuclear reaction takes energy right from matter via E = mc^2.

Some high energy light, like gamma rays, are not produced by the excitation of electrons, but comes from the nucleus of the atom.

I suppose the types of energy the sun converts would be thermal, electrical, radiant, nuclear, and gravitational.

How many types of energy are there?
Can they all be translated to one another directly, or do some have to go thorugh an additional form (the point B between A and C) to get there?

Since energy is the ability to do work, they can transfer directly. The energy it takes for you to stomp your foot is converted into the energy causing the air molecules to vibrate and propagate outwards, causing sound etc.
 

SEPKA

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I don't think you can know how many type of energy are there. There are yet to be a precise definition (but there are boundary). People still propose new form of energy, as a auxiliary hypothesis to protect the principle of conservation of mass-energy.
 

Cassandra

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Yeah, sort of, but I was looking for an explanation just a bit more complicated. It's hard finding science explanations that are at just the right level.


Some high energy light, like gamma rays, are not produced by the excitation of electrons, but comes from the nucleus of the atom.

I suppose the types of energy the sun converts would be thermal, electrical, radiant, nuclear, and gravitational.

Thank you verily much.
With this re-learned informaiton, I shall avoid ignorance in physics discussions!

Has anyone ever felt like they understand many of the "high concept" aspects of a subject, but do not have a very good grounding in it, so constantly make stupid mistakes due to not remembering the basic information? That's how I feel all the time. :storks:
 

Nicholas A. A. E.

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The definition of heat is usually vague as hell, but it's not the same as kinetic energy, nor is it was Agent Intellect said. What he called heat, "the sum of all the energy," is best termed the internal energy, symbolized by U.

The first law of thermodynamics: dU = δQ δW

Changes in internal energy U are considered as either heat Q or work W. Don't have time to get more specific, got to run, but hopefully that's a push in the right direction.
 

SEPKA

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No no no heat is the change in total kinetic energy of particle. Heat is not an energy in itself but a change in energy (analogy to impulse being a change in momentum not momentum itself).
 

Agent Intellect

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Well, that was the definition of heat that I was given in school - but some further inquiry has certainly proven me incorrect. The definition that seems most prevalent on the web is that heat means energy transfer.

Example: The iron is hot, so it's reasonable to say it must have a lot of heat in it. Reasonable, but wrong. It's more appropriate to say that it has a lot of energy in it (i.e. it has a high temperature), and touching it will cause that energy to transfer to your hand ... in the form of heat.
http://physics.about.com/od/glossary/g/heat.htm
 

Latro

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The notion of "forms of energy" is a little skewed. Once we thought there was just mechanical energy, which could be broken into kinetic and potential energy. Then we inserted heat in there to accommodate conservation of energy. Then we inserted a whole bunch of stuff involving electrical current, electromagnetism, light, then nuclear energy, and a huge number of other things. At the end of the day energy winds up, for our purposes, just being this strange parameter that must be conserved in some fashion, in order for the universe's laws to remain constant (my physics professor says that conservation of energy can be mathematically proven to be necessary for the laws of physics to remain fixed).

But then a guy I know told me that Feynman once said that, roughly "if anyone tells you they know what energy is, they're wrong."
 

SEPKA

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Even conservation of energy no longer valid. Replaced by conservation of mass-energy (thanks to Einstein's equation).
Read http://www.applet-magic.com/noetherth.htm for proof on conservation of energy.
In essence, it shows that conservation is due to the symmetry of physical laws across time.
There are already dispute to this, something related to blackhole.
 

Nicholas A. A. E.

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Heat is not energy transfer. Textbooks are wrong when they tell you this. Energy transfer is a process, not a physical quantity. What SEPKA says is also incorrect when you consider that work is also a change in internal energy, per the first law of thermodynamics. Also, this change in energy (for either work or heat) doesn't need to be kinetic. It may be chemical, electric, nuclear, gravitational, &c.
 

SEPKA

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Heat is not energy transfer. Textbooks are wrong when they tell you this. Energy transfer is a process, not a physical quantity. What SEPKA says is also incorrect when you consider that work is also a change in internal energy, per the first law of thermodynamics. Also, this change in energy (for either work or heat) doesn't need to be kinetic. It may be chemical, electric, nuclear, gravitational, &c.

When I say heat is energy transfer I refer to the amount of energy transferred, not the process of transfer. The change in internal energy is necessary either potential or kinetic (electric/nuclear/gravitational are all count under potential).
Sorry for mistaken about heat only concern with kinetic energy, I just realize I was wrong when I consider the melting process.
 

Cassandra

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:eek: More complicated than I thought...

....but that's what I like about it :D

 

fullerene

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yaay thermal class to the rescue.

Internal energy (U) is a combination of several things. In thermodynamics, there are a few "fundamental relations" which are said to contain all the information about a system. From these you can do some math tricks to learn basically anything you want, given a few easily-measurable values.

The one for internal energy is "dU = T*dS - P*dV + μ*dN". If you know calculus, then those "dx" variables are actually differentials. It's a multi-variable differential, though, since U is actually a function of (S,V,N). It's analogous to the 1d case you're probably used to, though (dy = dy/dx * dx) If you don't know calc, you can think of them as "a really small change in." The variables are defined as: T = temperature, S = entropy, P = pressure, V = volume, μ is the chemical potential of whatever particles are in your system, and N = number of particles. If you have multiple types of particles, you just add those onto the end (μ1*dN1 + μ2*dN2 + ...).

You can change the internal energy of a system by varying any of those parameters.

What Nicolas said (dU = δQ − δW) is also true(ish). This is because δQ = TdS, and δW = PdV. He left off the μdN part, because in most cases the number of particles in a system is considered constant. This means dN = 0, so the third term in the equation I gave is often left off. I should also note, there's an ambiguity in the way "Work" is defined that will often switch the sign on the P*dV term. We defined dW = -P*dV, but used a slightly different concept for work than what Nicholas' teachers probably taught.

Heat itself is not, strictly speaking, "energy". Like several people have already said, "heat" really isn't a "thing" at all. It's just the name physicists give when that certain type of internal energy is transferred (the T*dS part of the equation).


Judging by all this, I don't think a rolling boulder would be said to have heat energy simply because it has kinetic energy. Entropy has to do with the logarithm of the probability of the molecular state of a system. A rolling boulder, on a macroscopic scale, isn't really any more "likely" to be rolling than still... so the change in entropy from a stable-boulder to a rolling-one is 0, meaning that no heat energy was transferred into it.

^^I'd appreciate it if the other people who know physics well read that over and confirmed or argued me on it, though. I know what the equations say, but while I was typing it I realized a few paradoxes that I'm gonna have to ask my teacher about, if it was all correct (namely, if you have two compartments in a box, with a wall in the middle, and punch a hole in the wall, the entropy of the system will rise as the molecules spread out. Does this mean that, since its T*dS is positive, it gains internal energy simply by spreading, or does the increase in volume (from the -P*dV part) negate it?)

Let's see... AI was right in that the sun is sustained by nuclear reactions. When two hydrogen atoms fuse together to form helium, the mass of the resulting helium is less than the sum of the two hydrogen atoms that created it. Where did the mass go? Into Energy, via E=m*c^2. Since c=3*10^8, c^2 = 9*10^16... meaning that you can get huge amounts of energy out of a very small change in mass. This is why nuclear bombs are so incredibly powerful.


I couldn't really think of any other kinds of energy outside of that link Anthile posted. If you want a more general way of looking at it, energy can be found anywhere where forces are/were necessary to put the system in the state it is. When you have to exert a force to lift up an object in a gravitational field, you're adding potential energy to the system. When you push an object to move it, you're adding kinetic energy to it. When molecules from a hot object bump into molecules of a cold one, they push them, adding thermal/heat energy. When you separate two atoms in a molecule by pulling hard enough on them to overcome the electrons holding them together, you pull chemical potential energy out of the system. And so on for the other ones.

The one notable exception is in magnetic fields--magnetic fields exert forces on charged, moving particles, but do not add or remove energy from them. They're an odd-force-out because the direction of the force is actually perpendicular to the direction of the particle's motion. If you've had something called a "dot product" yet, it's because energy is added or removed only when (force vector) (dot) (direction of motion) is non-zero. If you haven't had dot-products/vectors, then you can take this to mean "if the force is exerted on the particle in a direction that is anything-but-perpendicular to its motion." That's virtually all forces... but like I said, magnetic fields are an odd-one-out.


For the last question: some types of energy can be transferred directly from one form to another, but others can't (I don't think). My lifting an object, giving it gravitational-potential-energy, will never make it heat up. Dropping it, transferring from potential to kinetic, will never make it emit light. There are usually clever little ways to turn most types of energy into other types, though. TVs and screens translate electricity into photons, power generators turn nuclear/heat into kinetic, and then into electricity. Batteries turn chemical potential into electric. Etc. As a general rule of thumb, though, if "energy type A" has to go through "some sort of form B" in order to get to "energy type C", then "form B" is just another type of energy too.
 

Nicholas A. A. E.

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cryptonia: Your first-law equation is correct, but it's very limited. It assumes the system is subject to nothing at all except pressure forces and heat transfer. Only in those circumstances (ignore chemical energy, nuclear energy, gravitational potentials, electrical potentials, &c.) can it be said that δQ = TdS, and δW = PdV. The equation I used is far more general, though you are right that it assumes constant number of particles, and is therefore not as general as it might be.

Work and heat are not state functions in general, as you make them out to be for this special case. You cannot, in general, look at a system at one moment in time and assign a value to the work and a value to the heat in a system, as you can for temperature, entropy, pressure, volume, (the four quantities you use in your expressions for heat and work) and internal energy.

All forms of energy I am aware of can be converted into all other such forms - the second law of thermodynamics implies only that heat cannot be perfectly converted to any other form. Perhaps not a direct conversion - but I don’t think “direct” and “indirect” are well-defined here.
 

SEPKA

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Kinetic energy in particle can change depending on your frame of reference. So I think we should set a frame of reference to be the means position of all the particle in the object. That would reduce the problems as cryptonia said, that a rolling bounder don't increase in heat.
Internal energy is dependent only on the state of the system, which is consist of P,V and T.
Sorry that's all I can said, I'm not in university yet.
 

Nicholas A. A. E.

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Uh, right. Good call SEPKA. Internal energy is considered from a center-of-mass frame. Thus, the translational or rotational kinetic energy of the system as a whole is excluded.
 

fullerene

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cryptonia: Your first-law equation is correct, but it's very limited. It assumes the system is subject to nothing at all except pressure forces and heat transfer. Only in those circumstances (ignore chemical energy, nuclear energy, gravitational potentials, electrical potentials, &c.) can it be said that δQ = TdS, and δW = PdV.

well, yeah, it's a thermal class that I'm taking, so of course we're not worrying about gravitational, nuclear, electric, etc. What is a change in heat, though, if not TdS? Like, how would the equation δQ = TdS change if you were taking into consideration chemical, nuclear, gravitational, etc, energy?

Likewise, how would δW change? I always thought that P*dV was just the convenient "stuff in a box" representation of F * dl, which is the definition of work? The units check out, at least: P = Force/Area, dV is a volume. F is just Force, while dl is a length. Isn't P*dV a direct consequence of the definition of change in work, which is easier to use when the thing is encapsulated by a volume? It seems like it would work even if you were pushing on a boulder, if you actually divided your force by the cross sectional area of your hand, and took dV to be the volume your hand goes through during the time you're exerting that force. How would that change under the other circumstances?


Work and heat are not state functions in general, as you make them out to be for this special case. You cannot, in general, look at a system at one moment in time and assign a value to the work and a value to the heat in a system, as you can for temperature, entropy, pressure, volume, (the four quantities you use in your expressions for heat and work) and internal energy.

Did I? I mean, you're absolutely right; you can't look at a system and say how much heat or work is in it, but I think everything I said referred only to changes in those quantities, and never about their absolute values. Er, what did I say that treated them like state functions? I should probably figure that out now, before the next test, haha.
 

Nicholas A. A. E.

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i actually know nothing about any of this.
it would just be out of character for ludwig boltzmann to not be able to school you all in thermodynamics
even upside-down boltzmann
:tinykitball:
 

Jordan~

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm quite sure there's one type of energy and it's interchangeable with matter.
 

fullerene

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*nods*, you're right... only I think just about any type of energy can be converted into mass.

One of my professors from last semester is actually doing work on quarks and gluons. Supposedly, the force between color-charged quarks and gluons is constant at all distances (as opposed to something like gravity or electric charges, which get weaker in proportion to the distance^2).

Anyway: there's a weird (not sure if I believe it) phenomenon in which if you pull the quarks apart far enough, inserting enough energy into the system, all that energy just "becomes" new quarks, and you just have two sets instead of one. The only reason it's a bit hard to believe is that we've never seen a quark on its own, and it's hard to imagine a force not falling off with distance. I'm just not sure how they even know what they're dealing with.


I know of a lot more processes that turn matter into energy than I do processes which turn energy into matter, though. Maybe there's something about energy having a higher entropy than matter in most cases, which makes reverse processes impossible, or at least highly unlikely? I dunno, though, because I'm not even sure if entropy of energy is even a well-defined quantity..
 

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My instinct is to say that most physics at that level isn't based on observation, and that the thing about the force not diminishing with distance is based on mathematical modelling from phenomena that can be observed and requires verification through observation of empirical data when that becomes possible.
 

fullerene

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eh... I think that's a fair instinct, but I think the truth is actually the exact opposite. The Standard Model (of particle physics) is an extremely convoluted and, frankly, ugly theory that wouldn't even exist unless it were observed. The "pure" scientific method, of making a hypothesis, figuring out how to test it, running your experiment, and confirming or rejecting it by the results, doesn't really exist at that level. Instead they run experiments, look at whatever crazy-data they have, and say "what could possibly explain this?"

My guess is that there's some property that a pair of quarks have that one-half of a pair doesn't, so they can tell when a new pair has formed. Since there's a constant force between them at all distances, I would think that scientists probably pulled the quark/gluon pair apart some small distance, and saw some indirect evidence for their smashing back into each other, returning to the way they were before being pulled apart. I'd guess that they would then pull it apart by a greater distance (requiring enough energy so that E/c^2 gives the mass of two new quarks), and then saw no evidence for their having crashed back into each other. Then someone probably ran lots of tests at varying differences, noted that E=m*c^2 seemed to be holding for the mass of the quarks and the energy they were putting into the system, and said "it seems like the energy we put into the system creates new quark/gluon pairs, so that the force is between these created-particles, rather than the original two we were working with" and no one has seen any differently yet.

All complete speculation, of course.
 

spoirier

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Simple definition: heat is a mixture of energy and entropy.
Its ratio Energy/Entropy, is the temperature.

if you have two compartments in a box, with a wall in the middle, and punch a hole in the wall, the entropy of the system will rise as the molecules spread out.
Does this mean that, since its T*dS is positive, it gains internal energy simply by spreading, or does the increase in volume (from the -P*dV part) negate it?
It does not gain internal energy. The quantity T*dS measures the variation of internal energy only if dS is caused by a reversible heat transfer, which is not the case here. The -P*dV plays no role here, as the gas is not pushing any wall while increasing its volume, and thus not mechanically transfering any energy to it.

Still we can consider another process to go from the same initial state to the same final state: slowly moving the wall while transfering heat to the gas from the environment, to keep it at the same temperature. In this other scenario, the formula dU=T*dS-P*dV=0 would apply.
 
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