Thoughts on veganism?

[robertfripp]

I got into an argument with someone about it on a different site and I'm curious to know what people on here think of it.

 

[Brontosaurie]

If you summarize the argument i will provide an opinion.

My opinion on veganism as such and at large is not very intetesting.

 

[Fukyo]

http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=20417

 

[robertfripp]

http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=20417

I've seen that thread but I wanted to start a new one especially since it's become an even more recent trend to "go vegan"

 

[Grayman]

I really liked the argument from Gary Yourofsky about how a baby won't eat a bunny if you put it in the crib and then seeing this video.

https://youtu.be/R9vxHN8_jSE

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

An admirable pursuit.

 

[deathvirtuoso]

If you wanna go vegan, that's your problem. Don't try to enforce it on me like it's a religion. Wait, in fact, you should even try to enforce your religion on others. Man, I can't stand it when people act like they are above others just because they adopt minimalism, being vegan etc.

Edit: okay, we shouldn't even try to enforce anything.

 

[QuickTwist]

http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=20417

Was going to do the same thing cept I didn't want to come across like I had some kind of authority on the subject or seen as a figure of moddom or some such.

 

[robertfripp]

If you summarize the argument i will provide an opinion.

My opinion on veganism as such and at large is not very intetesting.

It was an argument that mainly consisted of scare tactics (eating meat causes heart disease), guilt-tripping (People who eat meat support rape and murder) denial (claiming that a balanced nutritious diet could never contain meat or dairy products). They argued that veganism would solve world hunger, save animals, and cure diseases. While there's no doubt becoming vegan has its benefits, I don’t see how making those claims are realistic. They may see it as taboo, but humans are apart of the food chain. These factories can be brutal with their methods but whether its ‘local’ or from a factory it’s still going be killed and it’s going to be eaten by people so it’s not really going to waste.. Not being killed ‘just for fun’. People are stubborn and want their meat. They technically know they’re slaughtering animals so either they question it and feel sympathy or question it and not care.

A person usually becomes vegan because it benefits them morally and physically, or they just don’t like the taste of meat.

A lot of former omnivores who turned vegan suddenly “feel so much better” when a reason for that could easily be they were malnourished (which you could certainly be on a vegan diet as well) lacking structure to their diet to begin with so when suddenly switching to one with a strict set of rules in order to get “proper nutrition” of course you’d “feel better”. Not saying that’s the case for all of them with all the common and non-common health issues, but when it’s a young person with no history of any ‘issues’ I think it’s safe to say that’s most likely what’s happened.

“Eating meat, dairy, and animal products cause heart disease” SURE if you eat bacon drenched in fat 24/7 and not exercise ever. Technically those things can cause health issues but in excessive amounts. Balancing the foods you eat, proper nutrition, and exercising will benefit your health vegan or not. But no, you’re not destined to die a short disease filled life solely because you consume meat and animal products. If shitty lifestyle choices have already affected your life then YES being vegan could possibly work for you.

Most of the “Self-proclaimed YouTube vegan activists” fail to see the bigger picture. If anything veganism is great for omnivores… With all these “vegan superfoods” + trendy restaurants = more variety and healthy choices to incorporate into their diet. Humans want what they want. You can’t possibly convince every person to switch their diets because one diet could not satisfy every human’s needs/desires. If La La vegan dream world happened in the future and eating meat was illegal everywhere, it would be complete chaos with ‘curious’ people wanting to constantly rebel.

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

If you wanna go vegan, that's your problem. Don't try to enforce it on me like it's a religion. Wait, in fact, you should even try to enforce your religion on others. Man, I can't stand it when people act like they are above others just because they adopt minimalism, being vegan etc.

Are you a libertarian-anarchist or something?

I mean, is there any standard of behaviour that SHOULD be enforced (or even simply "heavily promoted") on others?

 

[Analyzer]

Are you a libertarian-anarchist or something?

I mean, is there any standard of behaviour that SHOULD be enforced (or even simply "heavily promoted") on others?

The court of manners and tastes. It's the only rational way. Who is anyone to use aggression on another to promote an idea, doctrine, ethic, or way of living?

 

[deathvirtuoso]

Are you a libertarian-anarchist or something?

I mean, is there any standard of behaviour that SHOULD be enforced (or even simply "heavily promoted") on others?

Well, okay, I'll correct myself. I doubt there is any standard of behavior that should be enforced. However, it's undeniable that many things, which shouldn't be enforced, are enforced. I think this will belong to another topic.

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

Well, okay, I'll correct myself. I doubt there is any standard of behavior that should be enforced. However, it's undeniable that many things, which shouldn't be enforced, are enforced. I think this will belong to another topic.

Well okay, at least you're consistent.

As long as you don't enforce that belief tho, world gotta keep turning and all that.

--

Opposition I had in mind: animal farming in many cases amounts to tremendous levels of animal cruelty i.e. torture, and as we are ourselves animals, it is acceptable to enforce, at the least, ethical farming practices lest we let everyone do anything to whatever, whoever. Perhaps, to lesser degree, nonetheless, principally we have an equality down to a constant multiplier.

 

[Nofriends]

I agree animals should be killed ethically, but refraining from meat consumption is pointless unless there is a good incentive to do so, and if one of the stipulations included having a large followership.

 

[redbaron]

- morally ideal
- practically difficult
- vegetarian is an acceptable middle ground, nothing really wrong with it
- roasted and stuffed peppers are amazing
- potato

 

[Brontosaurie]

I came up with one opinion

- As vague as veganism has become, you might as well call it vagueanism and no one could even tell the difference

 

[ruminator]

It was an argument that mainly consisted of scare tactics (eating meat causes heart disease), guilt-tripping (People who eat meat support rape and murder) denial (claiming that a balanced nutritious diet could never contain meat or dairy products). They argued that veganism would solve world hunger, save animals, and cure diseases. While there's no doubt becoming vegan has its benefits, I don’t see how making those claims are realistic. They may see it as taboo, but humans are apart of the food chain. These factories can be brutal with their methods but whether its ‘local’ or from a factory it’s still going be killed and it’s going to be eaten by people so it’s not really going to waste.. Not being killed ‘just for fun’. People are stubborn and want their meat. They technically know they’re slaughtering animals so either they question it and feel sympathy or question it and not care.

A person usually becomes vegan because it benefits them morally and physically, or they just don’t like the taste of meat.

A lot of former omnivores who turned vegan suddenly “feel so much better” when a reason for that could easily be they were malnourished (which you could certainly be on a vegan diet as well) lacking structure to their diet to begin with so when suddenly switching to one with a strict set of rules in order to get “proper nutrition” of course you’d “feel better”. Not saying that’s the case for all of them with all the common and non-common health issues, but when it’s a young person with no history of any ‘issues’ I think it’s safe to say that’s most likely what’s happened.

“Eating meat, dairy, and animal products cause heart disease” SURE if you eat bacon drenched in fat 24/7 and not exercise ever. Technically those things can cause health issues but in excessive amounts. Balancing the foods you eat, proper nutrition, and exercising will benefit your health vegan or not. But no, you’re not destined to die a short disease filled life solely because you consume meat and animal products. If shitty lifestyle choices have already affected your life then YES being vegan could possibly work for you.

Most of the “Self-proclaimed YouTube vegan activists” fail to see the bigger picture. If anything veganism is great for omnivores… With all these “vegan superfoods” + trendy restaurants = more variety and healthy choices to incorporate into their diet. Humans want what they want. You can’t possibly convince every person to switch their diets because one diet could not satisfy every human’s needs/desires. If La La vegan dream world happened in the future and eating meat was illegal everywhere, it would be complete chaos with ‘curious’ people wanting to constantly rebel.

I'm more interested in the morality aspect, I don't know how to morally justify eating meat for pleasure.

 

[Brontosaurie]

I'm more interested in the morality aspect, I don't know how to morally justify eating meat for pleasure.

Why would it need a moral justification?

Animals are not humans and they don't belong to society, thus they aren't subject to moral consideration. It doesn't make sense to treat them as equals just because they too have nociception, not any more than it makes sense to treat plants as equals just because they too have cells. The whole idea boils down to denial of basic will to live and proliferate and conquer. It's self-defeating, meaningless and absurd.

That being said, reduced meat consumption is likely desirable from an environmental perspective. This is a far more rational angle, possible to argue and prove and relate to a common self-interest. You can never prove that animals need to be respected. It just alienates and polarizes the opposition. In order to effect change, the emotional navelgazing must be dropped and the rational appeal must lead. Thus, one who truly cares about animal suffering must learn not to use it as an appeal, because such an appeal will not work to reduce animal suffering. This is how i conclude that a majority of "animal rights" vegans are mere posers with big personal issues. The argument isn't difficult to follow.

Please don't take this more personally than you need to. Mostly i'm using your post as a starting point for my own exposition.

A clarification: I'm not saying empathy for animals is invalid on a personal level. (I even have some empathy for them myself, though i can't understand why anyone would want to live with a dog that causes ear damage when it's having is quaint little feelings). This talk is strictly about discourse and knowledge.

 

[Grayman]

Why would it need a moral justification?

I Need For Principles!