Thinking something is wrong vs. Feeling it.

[Darby]

So there was a bit of discord between a friend of mine today about the fact that I don't "stand up against" things that I think are wrong. We had a bit of a talk about how I simply "disagree" with the way someone goes about something, and I have my reasons for thinking this. While they "feel a strong emotion" of disgust or 'wrongness" about the situation. They then compared rape to having only one 10 minute break for a 5 and a half hour shift at work (in regards to it feeling wrong), and I didn't even bother getting into how drawing parallels between the two doesn't work at all. They seem to think that simply disagreeing isn't "enough."
and that I have to "feel" it. Even though I have no problem supporting the idea of fifteen minute breaks.

I'm curious how often others on here come across this problem. I know the lack of caring or feeling in this way is not an uncommon "problem" among INTPs. Also, I am curious if anyone ever seems baffled by your behavior (because I was truly surprised by their utter shock at my lack of emotion on the subject).

I've now spent the last three-to-four hours thinking over all the reasons why I think getting a fifteen minute break over a ten for a five and a half hour shift is perfectly reasonable, and preferable (especially considering our company regularly advertises that they take great care of their employees). Still no feeling of "wrongness" going on though, either that, or I'm not understanding the feeling properly. I guess my issue is just that my goal isn't to make myself feel better, it's to come up with a system that benefits all parties in a way that will work, and wont change too much. If I get emotional, I will push my ideas forwards without accepting that I don't hold the power in the situation, and instead I could look bad or worse. I might even write a short essay on it, maybe submit it to our boss, I'm not totally sure yet.

 

[Thurlor]

I'm always wary of people who argue 'from the heart'. Too many people have made seriously messed up decisions by following their feelings.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

I think the dichotomization is unnecessary and misguided.

It doesn't really matter whether you think or feel something, of course it usually dictates how you approach a situation but the intentions are all the same. If you consider something in your environment to be wrong, and you pay no mind to it, that's denial.

Denial seems like the real issue here rather than thinking/feeling.

 

[NinjaSurfer]

I imagine that getting raped feels a lot worse than having a less than optimal break time. Bad analogy on your friend's part. You can't help a person who is bad at making analogies, because he/she will then have problems understanding the poignant nature of a good analogy.

Getting "fucked" unwanted would be like getting fired for no reason, makes for a better rape analogy.

Getting a 10 minute vs a 15-minute break is more like giving your gf half the amount of foreplay she wants. She's still getting foreplay, after all, although more would probably benefit and satisfy both partners; this places more immediate constraints on one party (giving head for example) at the perceived benefit of the other party (receiving head)-- while maintaining better long-term overall relations.

Should a gf (or bf) really raise arms over an issue like that?

 

[Beholder]

I'm curious how often others on here come across this problem. I know the lack of caring or feeling in this way is not an uncommon "problem" among INTPs. Also, I am curious if anyone ever seems baffled by your behavior (because I was truly surprised by their utter shock at my lack of emotion on the subject).

Truth is, I never really thought about it like that, but I've definitely come across this problem, except with me it's usually the other way around - I don't understand why people actually care about things which are out of their control. I mean, if you can do something about it - do it, if you can't - why make it worse for yourself by feeling angry or frustrated about it?
Whenever people complain to me about something that's bothering them that's out of their control, I just say "yup, that sucks" dryly. I guess that explains why I can't remember anyone doing that to me more than once...

Now that I think of it, I do remember receiving comments about how I just don't care about anything (from one person in specific, I'm pretty sure he's an ESTJ, who liked making fun of my strangeness in front of other people (the truth is that I loved when he did that, because I always had a perfectly logical explanation to give for everything I do, so it just made me look better to anyone who appreciates a little out of the box thinking and originality, which are the only people I care about impressing anyways)) , and replying with "why should I care? I can't do anything about it", which just seemed to make it appear more strange to him...

 

[Beholder]

I imagine that getting raped feels a lot worse than having a less than optimal break time. Bad analogy on your friend's part. You can't help a person who is bad at making analogies, because he/she will then have problems understanding the poignant nature of a good analogy.

Getting "fucked" unwanted would be like getting fired for no reason, makes for a better rape analogy.

Getting a 10 minute vs a 15-minute break is more like giving your gf half the amount of foreplay she wants. She's still getting foreplay, after all, although more would probably benefit and satisfy both partners; this places more immediate constraints on one party (giving head for example) at the perceived benefit of the other party (receiving head)-- while maintaining better long-term overall relations.

Should a gf (or bf) really raise arms over an issue like that?

I love the way you derail threads (I'm not being sarcastic btw) (note: I love the way you derail threads not necessarily the fact that you derail them )

 

[Roni]

So there was a bit of discord between a friend of mine today about the fact that I don't "stand up against" things that I think are wrong.
..They seem to think that simply disagreeing isn't "enough."
..I am curious if anyone ever seems baffled by your behavior (because I was truly surprised by their utter shock at my lack of emotion on the subject).

I think I've experienced something like that.
An ex-friend seemed to have a real problem with me staying calm, thinking before I speak, seeing both sides of an issue, etc. She would often get quite upset on my behalf when something didn't work out for me the way she felt I ought to want it to. Or something.
She was convinced I had something wrong with me, some old insecurity or wound I'd dealt with by becoming an emotionless robot. She'd often try to 'fix' me. You know, as a good friend should. I ought to feel a lot more grateful for her concern. I ought to stop insisting I actually do have emotions since I obviously don't. I shouldn't disagree with her because don't I know by now how much that hurts her feelings? Blah blah blah.
Eventually her need for an emotional response extended to deliberate attempts to hurt the feelings she didn't believe I had.

For a long time I categorised this as ordinary T/F conflict taken to extremes. I could see it sometimes in other Feeler types and developed a habit of stating my thoughts in emotional terms ("I feel this decision is rushed" and "I'm angry we weren't consulted about this" etc). A part of me resented this compromise, muttering to myself about the Feeler hypocrisy of expecting me to suffer the discomfort of acting outside my own nature because their feelings are more important than mine. The bastards.

Later I decided our conflict went much deeper than a clash of preferences. Her absolute disregard for my feelings (which includes how I feel about expressing my feelings) was probably something closer to Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

 

[Beholder]

developed a habit of stating my thoughts in emotional terms ("I feel this decision is rushed" and "I'm angry we weren't consulted about this" etc). A part of me resented this compromise, muttering to myself about the Feeler hypocrisy of expecting me to suffer the discomfort of acting outside my own nature because their feelings are more important than mine. The bastards.

I do that too with some people, I learned with my ex that an opinion is only valid if an "I feel" comes before it, and not only is it a criterion for a valid opinion, it also is enough to justify anything. Logic? Well that's just the way you see it. Feelings? Well Feeling are Feelings, you can't argue with the way someone Feels.

 

[Da Blob]

There seems to be a type of people who believe all of their own emotions are valid indicators of reality. Such can be considered prey, for emotions are easily manipulated by social predators. The challenge is to learn how to manipulate one's own emotions, so that they can not be manipulated by an Other instead. IMO, those who can control their own emotions are superior to those who can not.

Some don't find motivation in long term goals or in ideals, but rather are motivated in the short term by the emotivators of the endocrine system and are seemingly addicted to chemical mix provided by the HPA.

As far as the ethics of employers, they don't seem to have any in regards to employees. They weigh profit against worker safety and if the punishment for unsafe working conditions is moderate (if ever noticed), they will insist employees work in unsafe conditions to pad the profit margin. I finally came to the realization that according to the POV of the employer, the only thing they actually owe their employees is pay for the hours worked, and nothing more.

 

[redbaron]

I can't really fathom your friends line of reasoning. 5 minutes extra break isn't that big a deal really.

I have had this problem before though, where people are adamant about an ideal or belief that is ultimately of little consequence. Mostly at work where people might fret over minor details that I simply ignore. Most people are immature and vindictive, even at work.

Your employer probably isn't going to listen to your friend anyway. You need to form a logical case that equates to a positive outcome for the employer as a result of extra break time.

Assuming 12 people work in a day and receive 5 more minutes of paid break time. That's an hour of labour costs for people just to do nothing. In one week that's 7 hours, say $100. In a month $400. In a year, $4800 of wasted money that the employer needs a justification for.

The argument you can make is that it will improve the standard of work and raise crew morale, and the extra break time won't be taken for granted by employees.

If your friend seriously wants to see a change, they need to stop being an immature and emotional twit. The second they start analogizing a five minute loss of break time to other bad things, the employer will switch off and dismiss them as not having an opinion worth knowing.

I finally came to the realization that according to the POV of the employer, the only thing they actually owe their employees is pay for the hours worked, and nothing more.

I'd agree in majority of cases, but not all.

 

[GYX_Kid]

What are broadly-defined differences between Fi and FJ?

 

[EyeSeeCold]

What are broadly-defined differences between Fi and FJ?

Fi is the inward turning of emotional & social processing, which results in reasoning, judgments, convictions, attitudes, experiences, etc that are not only internal but exclusive to the person. Fi lead also denotes the capacity to understand this aspect in others, especially if it is a neglected blindspot.

FJ* represents the supremacy of the view that people's actions should be subjected to the standards of social interaction, and the complex web structures of interpersonal relationships.



* FJ should also represent Fi/Fe lead, but, MBTI..

 

[Roni]

There seems to be a type of people who believe all of their own emotions are valid indicators of reality. Such can be considered prey, for emotions are easily manipulated by social predators...

You see this a lot on social networking sites that facilitate single click ego boosting. Social predation becomes the norm in some circles. They feed on each other's narcissism for no apparent gain besides a false prestige that can only exist within that circle. Genuine people start fitting their emotions to the norm, the normalized emotions become reality and there's no reasoning with them.
It's a bit horrifying to watch from the outside but there's nothing you can do to warn someone they're being manipulated. When effusive approval is the norm even the most gentle, constructive dissenter is a deviant.

 

[MissQuote]

Bad analogy on your friend's part. You can't help a person who is bad at making analogies, because he/she will then have problems understanding the poignant nature of a good analogy.

I haven't know what to think of you for the most part, but after this little gem you are officially OKAY in my book.

.............................

I've had problems with people thinking (feeling?) like I should be displaying certain negative emotions in a way consistent with, what I assume, the rest of society deems appropriate and deciding that my lack of affect over the matter is some sort of show of no remorse or something.

For example- that I should make a show of guilt to prove my repentance and that I have learned from my mistake.

To me to do so would feel like a terrible punishment... but I suppose that is the point? I think what isn't understood by people that wish for this sort of display is that whatever the matter is that they are demanding a show of feeling over to prove that I understand my "crime" I have already thought over so deeply and from details and complexity that they cannot even seem to fathom (including all the aspects of why others wish for a display of the negative emotion) , and I certainly am no good at explaining, that there is really no point in a superficial "show" of how much I have beat myself up over whatever it is, if that makes sense, let alone how any emotional display will even begin to show in any way the depth of what I have learned.

Sometimes I wonder if a good punishment for real criminals would be to find out their type and if they have a thinking preference force them to show all of their feelings publicly and if they are feelers then deny them the right to express their remorse out loud to anyone at all. I am being malicious here and joking, actually.

I guess this sort of off from the OP question, sorry.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

You see this a lot on social networking sites that facilitate single click ego boosting. Social predation becomes the norm in some circles. They feed on each other's narcissism for no apparent gain besides a false prestige that can only exist within that circle. Genuine people start fitting their emotions to the norm, the normalized emotions become reality and there's no reasoning with them.
It's a bit horrifying to watch from the outside but there's nothing you can do to warn someone they're being manipulated. When effusive approval is the norm even the most gentle, constructive dissenter is a deviant.

Cannot express how great I think this post is.

Dear INTPf mods, please don't ever implement a "Thanks" or "Like" button, or anything to that effect.

 

[Darby]

I can't really fathom your friends line of reasoning. 5 minutes extra break isn't that big a deal really.

I have had this problem before though, where people are adamant about an ideal or belief that is ultimately of little consequence. Mostly at work where people might fret over minor details that I simply ignore. Most people are immature and vindictive, even at work.

Your employer probably isn't going to listen to your friend anyway. You need to form a logical case that equates to a positive outcome for the employer as a result of extra break time.

Assuming 12 people work in a day and receive 5 more minutes of paid break time. That's an hour of labour costs for people just to do nothing. In one week that's 7 hours, say $100. In a month $400. In a year, $4800 of wasted money that the employer needs a justification for.

The argument you can make is that it will improve the standard of work and raise crew morale, and the extra break time won't be taken for granted by employees.

If your friend seriously wants to see a change, they need to stop being an immature and emotional twit. The second they start analogizing a five minute loss of break time to other bad things, the employer will switch off and dismiss them as not having an opinion worth knowing.

I'd agree in majority of cases, but not all.

I definitely feel similar, although the highlighted part I don't necessarily agree with at all. The emotional aspect I think is important, and I don't think they don't understand the problems involved, their issue is with my passivity towards the injustice.

 

[redbaron]

I definitely feel similar, although the highlighted part I don't necessarily agree with at all. The emotional aspect I think is important, and I don't think they don't understand the problems involved, their issue is with my passivity towards the injustice.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. I got the impression that you don't really care enough that the effort involved in trying to change the policy is worth the extra 5 minutes.

Or did you mean that you share your friends stance of disgust, but you choose not to speak up about it? Or something else?

If it's the first one (the stance I thought you had), I wouldn't expect people to harass me over their own perceived problems that I don't share and I'd say as much to them.

 

[GYX_Kid]

Fi is the inward turning of emotional & social processing, which results in reasoning, judgments, convictions, attitudes, experiences, etc that are not only internal but exclusive to the person. Fi lead also denotes the capacity to understand this aspect in others, especially if it is a neglected blindspot.

FJ* represents the supremacy of the view that people's actions should be subjected to the standards of social interaction, and the complex web structures of interpersonal relationships.



* FJ should also represent Fi/Fe lead, but, MBTI..

*yeah FJ in mbti terms, as emphasizing Fe with Ti in the low end.

INTPs might naturally become more like FJs, when they develop Fe- but they might also be able to as equally substitute using Ti for aspects of low-end Fi, thus having more appearance of TJ in them. That would be the "unnatural" way I suppose.
In general, INTPs might fall somewhere in between

....making value-choices either complicated, or flexible as if there was no self to be biased from