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The Void's Collection

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#51
Re: Why am I bannned?

There is one discrepancy I would like to make regarding the void. While it may seem like there is no purpose to anything there are several factors that must be considered.

While it may seem true that there is no purpose in anything we experience, why trade self worth for a lack of experience that identifies our humanity? Even in the case that one is sure of knowing there is no inherent truth within the universe, why chose to focus on the ultimate insignificance of who we are? What is the purpose, or lack there of, to embody uncertainty, unrelativeness, amusement in what is important, clarity of uncertainty, disambiguous apathy, purposelessness and emptiness: void, for doesn't experience, worth, clarity of mind, achieving, working, or feel, a representation of fulfillment by taking pride in what one truly is?
It was never directly done, but by that 1+1 =10 theory, even the stories of the nihilist was debunked. So his conclusion of absolute purposelessness is uncertain again.

But still with the logic involved chance of existence of the 'absolute purpose' is pretty low most probably.

But the bald guy appreciates the present of relative purposes.

Uncertainty is promoted because thats the truth.

Some beliefs you may keep which seems certain.

Like life, awareness -> absolute truth. This belief seems to be true and you can be it.

Absolute purposelessness....one may keep it.

But in the core if you be uncertain you can be open to other possibilities when some other guys shows you something else.

When we have hardcoded belief system, our perceptions becomes filtered, then when someone argues, some chemicals makes us aggressive, forcing us to protect our belief system just like protecting ourselves from the attack of a lion, survival.

And it just makes us close minded and we can't accept or percieve the higher belief anymore.

Void and emptiness were not accepted by the bad guy, instead he brough the concept of the divine(true) self, which is infact pure life\awareness + some dramatizations.

When the ancients called emptiness, I guess they used the term to mean something else, may be allness, so full it feels free and beyond boundaries,

or what I think they tried to meant is incomprehensibility. You can never understand truly what is 'your' deepest self, just like you cannot eat your own mind with your mouth.

Mind is expert on creating stories connecting some dots. If you look into some psychology, and then reflect on your experience with open mind, then may be you can percieve, how many stories it can make, to make it feel clear and certain.

But some stories (science and stuff) can help you to understand conventions, communication and survive and function in this world, and some are just mental masturbation.
 
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#52
Re: Why am I bannned?

While it may seem like an ambitious attempt to clarify what the essence of our being is by focusing solely on the lack of purpose that we may feel, but reasoning out that individuals have no worth, isn't it inherently pointless to think that everything is pointless? This, to by this theory, is just an illusion of the mind; a reaction to outer stimuli. I could very variably given the chance to study neuroscience argue that this extreme focus on purposelessness to be a chemical imbalance in the brain. Why go against you nature to trade sensations, experiences and self worth for the opposite? Truly if you were to only focus on the lack of purpose it would drive you insane. You would eventually become catatonic for the remainder of you natural born life. No, as eloquent as it is, purposelessness is not the answer to which we owe ourselves.
.
Lack of purpose was not just felt in this story, but long explanantions were given on lack of absolute purpose, and then that was mostly indirectly ignored.
All complexities are ignored, the message is to just be, you don't have to feel the lack of purpose to have the essense of just being.

If everything is pointless yes it is pointless to even say that? But what is your point?

The common misview of pointlessness is that just because there is no point we should not do anything.

Look at the game flappy birds. There is no story, no point, but that does not stops people from playing it.

If there is no point to enjoy life, there is also no point to not enjoy life.

I will later make some comics on "the way of life" and stuff may be to clarify some of the things that were overcomplixified here or left behind. (may be, no promise)

But if you make a story with some absolute purpose and make yourself live according to that story, that is just an defense mechasim, just decieving yourself, escaping from the issue without solving it.

The point of the bald man was to show how life can be lived positively without even having any purpose.

Reaction to outer stimuli does not directly implies that the reaction is an illusion.

And a point to be noted: in the story the bald man mentioned that most of our reactions are stimuli based or most of the time they are or something like that,

but he never said "ALL" instead of "MOST".

(if not, forgive my mistakes)

But later that points given by the white guy debunks everything, it is pure epistemological nihilism, and so even that things about reaction to stimulis are debunked.


But the bald man never said the extreme focus of consciousness is chemical inbalance instead,

he tried to meant that that chemical inbalance and all mental states are a result of an underlying state of pure constant awareness i.e the world is within you i.e
the world is consciousness (dream like), and your pure state of awareness is everything, and everything you percieve is a product of the source of everything which is you yourself.

Neurosicence deals with mental states, and all that, but the bald man talks about awareness as something that lies beyond the mental states and that is why neuroscience can only find robotic mechanisms of mind not the true self that transcends the mind.

But then the transparent man, destroyed that belief too, by showing that his reasoning and experience used to come to this conclusion was not reliable thus he can't know.

(I personally think that the world is just a product of some deep source that is me myself, and everyone is just the same life\awareness expressing itself through different forms i.e the world is the by-product of awareness, and also I have the view of timelessness, that there is no past, present and future, everything is, just 'is'....but at the same time I know I don't know and so I don't deal much on my own beliefs)

Who is telling you to trade sensations, and experiences?

The black dressed guy shows how to be depressed and suffer in teh void of purposelessness.

And the bald guy, shows how to be happy in the same purposelessness, understanding love, embracing relative purposes and all that.

even though he hadn't mastered his state but he was the second most calm guy
near his death.

Since all we do is ultimately for 'fulfillment',
you can say that our purpose in life is 'fulfillment',

in a sense.

But the misconception is you have to do something, become something or gain something to gain fullfillment.

If you have that belief, fullfillment is still possible but become hard and it can be lost as soon as you gain because you will always be on the path to becoming,
or gaining.

One desires fullflled, -> fullfillment gained and the new desire and new search for fullfillment.

But you only have to just 'be' to be fullfilled.

Just 'be'.

Do nothing.

But doing nothing does not means, sitting still with pure mental silence,

it means following the flow within you.

Where the flow goes...the flow goes through the path of least resistance.

Least mental and physical resistance.


When you follow the flow, or your true will, you may be able to enjoy the search and enjoy the gain and enjoy the loss.

Seeking is not criticized, but our attitude towards seeking.

First learn to be happy by just 'being' and then you can seek anything, do anything,
material or spiritual, nothing can really bother you,

unless you lose the state of being by over attaching to something.

Detachment does not means living in a cave.

Detachment means having non-binding desires, do anything but when you are detached loss don't bothers you, and at the same time you can enjoy the desires, and stuff without fear of loss.
 
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#53
Re: Why am I bannned?

I will address your other points a bit later.
 
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#54
Re: Why am I bannned?

This all being said I chose to focus on a more positive outlook on humanity. Given that there are others in this world and what each one experiences is different I think it wise to focus on our individualism rather than how we measure up to the rest of the universe. Even so, There is value in what we are in relation to the rest of the universe in what significance it holds that a universe holds in it a place in space that there is a galaxy and in this galaxy there are stars, and surrounding those stars are planets, and on one of these plants (not every one mind you) there is something we call life. In this, it is a truly remarkable existence that we have not yet, through the longest time that life has existed on this planet, conclusively as the general public is concerned, come across any other life forms from different planets. This truly makes us at the very least a somewhat unique entity in the universe.
Yes focus on the individualism. Why not?
The story just tells us the high (my biased view) possibility of oneness.
Understanding oneness one can be more humble, and embrace equality and feel
more peaceful, all is the same expression of one divine power (life).
But it depends. It depends on subjective interpretion.

well I more or less agree with this paragraph of yours.

But may be we are not so unique, and aliens are ruling this planet, and that is why we don't meet them, because they are filtering all informations of advanced science, and existence of themselves and other aliens. They are the masters of the shadows. May be humans are even genetically engineered by aliens :phear: (just kidding (but a possibility, nonetheless))
 
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#55
Re: Why am I bannned?

Also, taking into consideration that we, as humans, have the ability to be conscious of what we are doing and all that we do as social creatures in communicating There are certain things that we must assume given the information that we communally experience. In communication there is much we can learn from one another; different ideas are generated everyday and the development of civilization is evidence of this. For as in communication we learn from others, this too is notable about our experience in the sensations that give us a sense of reality. Given that this is true there are certain things we must acknowledge about things concerning the grand scale of the universe, to what kind of bacteria are in a codependent relationship with us in order that we may rely on one another in order to survive. Truly, the fact that we are living in a world were there is such diversity of life must be held in high regard. For in the commonality of humanity and our relationship to others there is much we can conclude about the properties of our environment. If and when these properties are communally agreed upon, we get a taste of what our world is made of, and knowing this in and of itself gives us purpose.
Gives are purpose of what?
I think we are talking about diffirent types of purpose here.
Yes I agree with this paragraph too, though.
I addressed the same thing about communication and sensual experience in my "absolute truth" thread.
Well in a sense every experience is sensual (considering mental senses as the 6th sense)

To conclude, there is much to be celebrated for our individuality in self worth and what we discover communally, and in this we find what is purposeful and what holds meaning. To think otherwise is a dis-service to our humanity as individuals and also as our role in the universe. It is a shame to take life for granted and in choosing to focus on the negativity of how big or small we are compared to the universe, giving us less to know about ourselves as well as quell our natural desire for knowledge.
The thing is that, the one we think ourselves to be is not really we.
That is the thinking, believing individual one self 'I', is just a sense. The thoughts come and goes. Feelings and beliefs can be just stimulated by the outside world.
There are actually multiple 'I', it is chaos in the mind, one 'I' coming, one going, one dying forever one rebirthing.

But wonderfully the mind connects everything to create a sense of one continous 'I'.

But by attaching ourselves with the 'I' we can fall into suffering when something of the 'I' loses.

Fears of death is stuck in 'I' but strangely enough the same 'I' dies almost ever sec.

But one point that is missed is what is that force that creates the illusion of one 'I'.

There must be an unchanging background, in which all these changes are taking place.


Sometimes the sense of 'I' gets lost. But you still remain being one with the moment.

That is life, pure awareness, I call it void awareness sometimes, because it is pure and free from everything, the thing on which everything (that makes you, you) is dependant.

That is what you may call soul, but soul means a lot of things, I don't like using such confusing terms with so many subjective interpretions.

I think there is something like 'astral body' which is also may be called soul by some, but I guess even that is not your deepest core which lies beyond individuality.

Well I don't know much, just guessing relying on some vague experiences.

I am going a bit out of the context now. But what I mean is I through the story was not trying to say to kick and kill the 'I' which is meaningless , like killing your shadow. It is like your cloth and you may embrace it and do whatever, by communicating. I have no problem.

But what I was trying to say is about being detached from the 'I' and at the same time embrace it and let it work on it's own.

My theory of detachment and attachment is different from the conventional understanding.

I feel conventionally what people do most of the time by believing to be detached is just being avoidant. Just avoiding the problem.

But detachment is not like that. For example you may be detached from ice cream but still eat it, enjoy it, but since you are detached when the ice cream falls into the ground and then get squashed by some car, you will not suffer.

Detachment is more like watching things as if all is going on in a movie or better a
video game. You ineract, connect, talk, but nothing will bring you any severe suffering if you know it is a game.

we are mistaking our game avatar to be we ourselves.

I am not saying that reality is a game, i am just using it as an analogy to explain how detachment is like and explaining our superficial self.

The best analogy to explain detachment and attachment as I can think of, is this:

everything is impermanent. You can think of everything as a time bomb.
Attachment is like glueing yourself with the time bomb and playing with it. And when it gonna blast, it rips you apart.

The misuderstanding of detachment is that people thinks (I guess) that it is about avoiding the time bomb.

It more about playing with the time bomb but without glueing yourself. And when time for "boom!" comes you can let it go and throw it away, and you will not suffer.

Even if you suffer, if you are detached from suffering, you won't suffer from suffering.

Detached view can be like viewing everything from an unprogrammed state of mind, forgetting all conditionings, and emotional attachments....a supersane view.

In that state when you view guys playing football, you will just see some guys fighting just to kick a ball.

But that is more of a super detached state, you can also just enjoy the emotions and all that, but remain mentally unglued to anything and thus immune to loss or fear of loss.

So in short, I am not telling you to not embrace individuality but just mentioning the fragility of the sense of self, and it is not something to be attached to and increasing our sufferings with meaningless desires and fears.

Also I point to be noted, I am not against desires. Let desires stay. Follow your desires, do what ever, but as soon as you get attached to your desires, compulsion to fullfill, desires takes over, and when that happens, and desires don't get fullfilled, sufferings and furstrations follow.

Why is it a shame to do what you are talking about?

Your mind creates your reality, it is your world, and you are it's artistes, you can adopt any belief or anything and really believe in it too, I have no problem with that, the only problem can be with you, because those beleifs 'may' distort your perceptions, and depending on your story or interpretetion sufferings can be induced. But it is you yourself who makes yourself suffer through your story.
Well social conditionings have to be blamed too for that though.

The solution is not to run from suffering but to face pain and loss without suffering.

But since most of the people run, they never becomes free, because they always remain potentially vulnerable to suffering and in their deepest core they still suffer from fear of loss, which they beautifully distract themselves from.

Now, next: I don't understand in what sense you are even using the words
"meaningful" or "purposeful", in these contexts.

It seems more like you are talking about 'values' not meaning.

Tell me what is your meaning of meaning?

I guess, that you are trying to talk about value of life and all that.

Purposeful and meaningful gets wierdly used a lot of time, and these are cliches.

Meaning just means meaning, i.e understanding what is represented by what.

Purpose is about why? Which is 'apparently impossible to find because we can go on asking why infinitely.

But still there can be ultimate purposes (by definition of ultimate, the ultimate purpose itself is purposeless), and relative purposes which you can embrace and the bald man approved the existence of relative purposes.

Also may be we indeed are guided by something within, to feel some role, and we all have some specific purpose to fullfil in this world, but all that is still purposeless.

I think it is more like playing roles in a drama, a play. Our roles are our personal purpose, to complete the play, but the whole play is pointless, but pointlessness does not implies valueless.

Here is an example of my point:

Human meat is tasty. I have fun eating it. But it is pointless to it. Because all is ultimately pointless. But eating human meat is fun. Then why stop eating it? Why devalue it when it is tasty and fun to eat? So what it is pointless? If it is pointless to eat it, it is also pointless to not eat it. But since eating it, is fun, I can see fun as a point and eat it for the sake of fun.


In the end what is value-full (I am using the term value-full instead of meaningful because it explains better) what is not, is just your subjective interpretetions.

So whatever, to communicate, to live a clean life, to do whatever, make your own values, your own meanings, and do whatever, play your role in life.

But 'lack of absolute purpose' is a different subject absolutely.

You are talking about a different subject of purpose.

Most of time people talks about subjectively created purpose and argue about lack of absolute purpose, but that is no use, because lack of absolute purpose does not implies lack of relative purpose.....though those relative purposes itself are purposeless, but with such view, we go nowhere, so we always keep some points and relative limited purposes, to function.

People fall in the dark side of purposelessness because it is so full of light and freedom that it blinds us.
 
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#56
Re: Why am I bannned?

SO the conclusion is:
Make your own values, meaning, live, communicate, enjoy the diversity, or not enjoy, do whatever, idc, find what purpose best suites you and adopt it or whatever, (but absolute purpose is a different thing all together) and seek what in which you enjoy the seeking, and learn to be content by just being, so that it does not bother you when things happen against the will of the 'I'.
 
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#57
Re: Why am I bannned?

You make a good point and I would not want to deter you from feeling what comes naturally to you. I do feel however, that to strive for contentness in ones life is not to be under appreciated. Because one feels apathy toward a certain bent of reality does not mean that that individual can not find fulfillment in other aspects of ones life. Without consideration of what a person should feel in order to feel content life is surely pointless. I simply state that it is better to strive for this fulfillment than to ignore it completely.
I am not underappreciating the strive for contenment but just trying to point out the simple forgotten way of contentment.
I am not trying to promote one certain way that resitricts other ways, but I am talking about a way that applies to all other ways of life.

Buying an android phone -an materialistic pursuit for contenment -> I am not devalueing it, but devalueing the attitude we mostly have during the pursuit.

It is when we think that we need that thing 2 b happy, we need to do that , that needs to happen so that I can be in peace, thats when the problem comes.

When I asked my cousin, why do he wants an android he couldn't answer.
A victim of marketing and desire for show off. A victim of seeing everyone with android. The thing is he don't even uses softwares, and most of the people I see with android mostly uses it for music and internet.

But they don't even understand the core thing about android, don't have any interest in the diverse availibility of apps and all that, but still the same cousin
bought an expensive big screen android.

Now what will he use it for?

The main cost is probably due to the hardware for smooth running of softwares.

Some good camera, a big screen for browsing, and music he could get that in any otehr cheap phones.

Infact he don't even use internet much.

So in a sense it is completely useless for a guy like him.

So he is just using it for the appearance and all that, judging phones by appearance.

Same really.

And I am here, using a java still.

I once got my brother's android, used fro one day, then it broke and I lost it.

But I don't care still.


The thing is most of the time, people are confused. They don't know why they want what they want but they want, and work hard and all that for money and stuff that they don't even know how to use correctly.


But I have no problem, it was his money, and he bought it\or may be stole it who knows?

The problem is the inability to be in happiness without fullfilling desires.

You lose the present moment and live in the expectation of gaining something, and suffer.

I have no problem for humanity's strive for contentment.

But I am just trying to help people from losing contentment for the very search for contenment because of the wrong attitude.

There is no right or wrong though.

I used the word wrong in respect to the context of finding happiness.

though such ways will also lead to contenment but contenment will just be temporary for suffering so long for the search of it and even after that you remain potentially vulnerable.

So first stop everything. Forget everything. Forget all stories. Now there is nothing to be serious of. There is nothing to suffer from. Now just be. Be aware. Be the present moment. And relax and feel the peace. Embrace the silence. Don't suppress thoughts, just let them be, just surrender and stop trying to control everything, stop getting involved in mental drama but no need to stop them.

Just be. Let go of what is gone.

And when you can do this, make this state of mind your permanent abode, you can do anything you want, seek anything, buy phones, destroy phones, buy cars, homes, rape, sex, kill whatever...........but if you gain mastery over the state of being, you become invulnerable to suffering.

You may still feel pain, emotional and physical. Still feel fear. But there will be shield in between.

You feel it, but not suffer from it.

Though I mentioned stuff like rape, murder, but when you truly learn to surrender and just 'be', most probably such desires or atleast the compulsion to fulfill suck desires will not arise.

But I am not sure though.

:D
 

Milo

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#58
Re: Why am I bannned?

I can't tell if you are simply echoing what I am saying or if you are trying to relate things to me in a way that I can understand them better or if you are simply drawing from experience. In any case you are doing a fantastic job I find this discussion to be a worthwhile one.
Yeah, I'm trying to make everything as clear as possible because I hate it when things get lost in translation--it complicates everything too much for my liking.


Narcissism's role in an individual plays itself out as liken to a circuit that has an excess of disproportional current running through it compared to the load(s) that are present. Let me explain. The voltage, which is the driving force behind the current is what remains constant while the current is what is dependent on the load(s). If there is not enough self criticism/evaluation, this can eventually "fry" the self worth of an individual, inflating their ego to a point where they lose an acceptable perception of who they really are.
Acceptable and unacceptable are both parameters in the mind that can be edited with the right justification. Everything in the mind is highly flexible--we limit our minds by imagining limits.

For sure! Could not agree more. The interpretation of reality for one individual is in some way or another different than the interpretation of reality for any other individual but that does not make all interpretations equally relevant and/or valid. Certain assumptions must be made about what is accepted reality and what is not. This is where learning about the properties of our environment come into play. Without a point of reference of what reality is (for everyone) it is totally up to the individual on what inner truths they can come up with and this would make all peoples perceptive reality true.... but it can't all be true because there would be so many contradictions and opinion floating around that no one could make sense of anything! Understanding, learning becomes a very important role in both how we see ourselves and how we see the world. Without a doubt undermining the collective knowledge that the majority (or most reliable) opinions that we hold to be true becomes the standard for what is accepted and what is to be disregarded.
I think when one understands reality on the fundamental level, one is then free to venture into a more creative point of view--with the fundamentals already intuitively known from that point on.
 

QuickTwist

Alive - Born Anew
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#59
Re: Why am I bannned?

Yeah, I'm trying to make everything as clear as possible because I hate it when things get lost in translation--it complicates everything too much for my liking.
Good, then we are in agreement. Open communication is the foundation for productive achievement.

Acceptable and unacceptable are both parameters in the mind that can be edited with the right justification. Everything in the mind is highly flexible--we limit our minds by imagining limits.
For the most part I agree. Limiting oneself unnecessarily is truly a tragedy. Perhaps I used the wrong word and instead of saying "not acceptable" I should have said distorted. Here is where I disagree. Certain limits should be applied to what the social norms are in comparison to the rest of the community. This has always been the case for civilizations. Take murder and rape for example. Obviously it is under a subjective basis on whether or not these values can and do work for every civilization, but to bring order to a standard of what is acceptable is what the ultimately goal is by enforcing rules that the majority finds of value. Surely if tomorrow the US past a law that stated that murder and rape are no longer against the law things would change. Maybe not immediately, it may take time. But the point is that certain limits work for the benefit for both the individual and the group.

I think when one understands reality on the fundamental level, one is then free to venture into a more creative point of view--with the fundamentals already intuitively known from that point on.
This seems to resonate so deeply with me that I can hardly believe that this is what you believe!
 

Cognisant

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#60
Re: Why am I bannned?

Damn this thread got long fast, I'm just going to reply to this and if what I say has already been covered then sorry, my bad.

There's a favourite saying of mine, I don't know where it comes from but here it is "before enlightenment chop wood and boil water, after enlightenment chop wood and boil water" now the meaning of it is that enlightenment doesn't really change anything, you don't get superpowers, you don't learn the secret to success, it doesn't even make you happy (as I see it of you want to find happiness by delusion then Buddhism is as good a religion as any other) and as you may already know my definition of enlightenment is existential nihilism, the absence of innate meaning/purpose/etc.

Existential nihilism is very enlightening, but it doesn't change anything, life may be pointless but suicide is just as pointless, you can choose to be happy or not it doesn't matter, all is vanity and try as you might there's no escaping that.

Or as I like to see it everything we are, know, and care about is innately artificial so to make the distinction between what is artificiality and reality is really quite absurd, indeed if there's one one true reality and anywhere up to an infinite number of simulated realities then the probability that this reality is in fact actually real is suffice to say, unlikely.

So getting back to that favourite quote of mine it is interesting to note that it no longer holds true, I mean the daily tasks it refers to (chopping wood and boiling water) aren't actually daily tasks anymore, we have progressed beyond that which is something I find inspiring, it's proof that as the centuries go by progress is being made, the world is changing, as a species we are going somewhere and that is terribly exciting.

Furthermore as a roboticist and developer of AI let me tell you my journey of discovery has been as much external as internal, designing robots has taught me how incredibly sophisticated my body is and how much more sophisticated it could one day be, likewise my own research into AI has taught me things about my own mind I never knew and because of these insights I believe I now know more about myself, both practically and philosophically, than ever would have otherwise.

I talk of becoming a machine one day and people dismiss me as futurist, a crackpot, and that's fine, they'll see, one day it'll be impossible to ignore that we were always machines and what higher goal is there for a machine than to further it's own development?

Don't sell me a soul, I have no need of spiritualism.
Transcendence is real and it is mine for the taking.
 

Cognisant

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#61
Re: Why am I bannned?

Why? You wonder.

We are what we do, this is who I am, my pride, my vanity, my choice.
 
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#62
Re: Why am I bannned?

Damn this thread got long fast, I'm just going to reply to this and if what I say has already been covered then sorry, my bad.

There's a favourite saying of mine, I don't know where it comes from but here it is "before enlightenment chop wood and boil water, after enlightenment chop wood and boil water" now the meaning of it is that enlightenment doesn't really change anything, you don't get superpowers, you don't learn the secret to success, it doesn't even make you happy (as I see it of you want to find happiness by delusion then Buddhism is as good a religion as any other) and as you may already know my definition of enlightenment is existential nihilism, the absence of innate meaning/purpose/etc.

Existential nihilism is very enlightening, but it doesn't change anything, life may be pointless but suicide is just as pointless, you can choose to be happy or not it doesn't matter, all is vanity and try as you might there's no escaping that.

Or as I like to see it everything we are, know, and care about is innately artificial so to make the distinction between what is artificiality and reality is really quite absurd, indeed if there's one one true reality and anywhere up to an infinite number of simulated realities then the probability that this reality is in fact actually real is suffice to say, unlikely.

So getting back to that favourite quote of mine it is interesting to note that it no longer holds true, I mean the daily tasks it refers to (chopping wood and boiling water) aren't actually daily tasks anymore, we have progressed beyond that which is something I find inspiring, it's proof that as the centuries go by progress is being made, the world is changing, as a species we are going somewhere and that is terribly exciting.

Furthermore as a roboticist and developer of AI let me tell you my journey of discovery has been as much external as internal, designing robots has taught me how incredibly sophisticated my body is and how much more sophisticated it could one day be, likewise my own research into AI has taught me things about my own mind I never knew and because of these insights I believe I now know more about myself, both practically and philosophically, than ever would have otherwise.

I talk of becoming a machine one day and people dismiss me as futurist, a crackpot, and that's fine, they'll see, one day it'll be impossible to ignore that we were always machines and what higher goal is there for a machine than to further it's own development?

Don't sell me a soul, I have no need of spiritualism.
Transcendence is real and it is mine for the taking.
I actually had that quote in my mind while writing this. I even though of including it but didn't. You see the world without delusion, you see the superficialities all around, and the voidness and then again the ego returns, everything becomes normal, no magical power, go back to work stuff.

I think some people stays in some kind of wierd void state after playing too much with the mind, and go too deep within the void that even physical expression and movements reduces to nothing.

Infact my mind is actually going closer to the void, in a sense it is kind of separated. One part of me go on writing in forums, another part the deeper part is kind of shielded, senses are not coming in with that much intensity. And sometimes it just disappears. May be some day I will just become completely lost. In a sense I am already dead. A dead man writing.

I appreciate all paths, follow where whatever you want. It is when we fight against our inner will and try to resists, we become unsatisfied.

My brother is into robotic stuffs too. Well may be you will achieve transhumanism, I have no problem with that.

But I am more interested in learning the powers of a pure human. There is something hidden in us, some great power, with effective mastery of that anything can be done. I am not so sure. I am just guessing. But I had experienced stuff.
I think the chi absorption and all that are legit, because I feel it within me,
Something is happening within my body, I don't know much.

But well I was interested once, to discover the true potential of a normal human being. I got into some psychic stuff too. But later I lost everything and even my interests until only the void remained.
 
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#63
Re: Why am I bannned?

Why? You wonder.

We are what we do, this is who I am, my pride, my vanity, my choice.
Why have no answer though.
The best answer for Why? is in the end another question: Why not?
 
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#64
Re: Why am I bannned?

Damn this thread got long fast, I'm just going to reply to this and if what I say has already been covered then sorry, my bad.

There's a favourite saying of mine, I don't know where it comes from but here it is "before enlightenment chop wood and boil water, after enlightenment chop wood and boil water" now the meaning of it is that enlightenment doesn't really change anything, you don't get superpowers, you don't learn the secret to success, it doesn't even make you happy (as I see it of you want to find happiness by delusion then Buddhism is as good a religion as any other) and as you may already know my definition of enlightenment is existential nihilism, the absence of innate meaning/purpose/etc.

Existential nihilism is very enlightening, but it doesn't change anything, life may be pointless but suicide is just as pointless, you can choose to be happy or not it doesn't matter, all is vanity and try as you might there's no escaping that.

Or as I like to see it everything we are, know, and care about is innately artificial so to make the distinction between what is artificiality and reality is really quite absurd, indeed if there's one one true reality and anywhere up to an infinite number of simulated realities then the probability that this reality is in fact actually real is suffice to say, unlikely.

So getting back to that favourite quote of mine it is interesting to note that it no longer holds true, I mean the daily tasks it refers to (chopping wood and boiling water) aren't actually daily tasks anymore, we have progressed beyond that which is something I find inspiring, it's proof that as the centuries go by progress is being made, the world is changing, as a species we are going somewhere and that is terribly exciting.

Furthermore as a roboticist and developer of AI let me tell you my journey of discovery has been as much external as internal, designing robots has taught me how incredibly sophisticated my body is and how much more sophisticated it could one day be, likewise my own research into AI has taught me things about my own mind I never knew and because of these insights I believe I now know more about myself, both practically and philosophically, than ever would have otherwise.

I talk of becoming a machine one day and people dismiss me as futurist, a crackpot, and that's fine, they'll see, one day it'll be impossible to ignore that we were always machines and what higher goal is there for a machine than to further it's own development?

Don't sell me a soul, I have no need of spiritualism.
Transcendence is real and it is mine for the taking.
Well the point of the strip was not to denounce the path of scientific development but denounce the way in which we try to ignore our true self and try to distract ourselves from full thoughts so that we remain in our comfort zone which are actually more miserable but instead run behind science and pretend to be smart with superficial knowledge. The point was to search, learn programming and everything but after understanding atleast about the false self, and all that, to be immune to suffering.

Though in the end the bald guy failed all over.
The real message in the end was: "just be" and "total acceptance".
 
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#65
Re: Why am I bannned?

The strip obliterates the hubris infesting modern civilized man, indeed I think to just be requires total acceptance, but in order to just be we must pretend that things are when they are not or at most may be in some degree.
 

Cognisant

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#66
Re: Why am I bannned?

There is something hidden in us, some great power, with effective mastery of that anything can be done.
You still believe in nonsense :D

The best answer for Why? is in the end another question: Why not?
We are what we do, even doing nothing is a choice.
 

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#67
Re: Why am I bannned?

INFJ Douche - I hate stupid bogus things like Free will
Nice sig there Cherry Cola...

Free will is freedom of choice independant of context, implying that we're not just a product of our upbringing, genetics, education, etc, for example lets say you murder someone after they did something that would upset you to a murderous extent. As the theory goes it's ethical for society to punish you for the crime because it was a choice you made, obviously the wrong one, but if the exact same scenario was repeated would the outcome have been different, in the same situation with the same motivation could you do anything different?

According to free will you could but there's the problem, how?
The exact same situation will create the exact same result, 1+1=2 no matter how many times you calculate it, input = output, the only way you could anything different would be if you we're under the affect of some external influence that wasn't present in the prior scenario.

Moreover for you to have a meaningful choice that external influence would have to somehow impart upon you knowlege of the event and its outcome before it occurs so that you are able to willingly choose another outcome.

So freewill necessitates precognition (or something like it) but existing in a state outside causality also negates free will because although you may be free of causality the existence of your will becomes moot, if you can choose the optimal outcome every time you will choose the optimal outcome every time, your choice no longer matters because you're no longer making choices, you're just a cost/benefit calculator whose choices are thus determined by context.

Determinism is inescapable, no matter how you look at it the choices we make a made for reasons and those reasons are reactions to context, we're incapable of acting independant of context because action itself cannot be meaningfully taken without context, the whole concept of free will is totally flawed.

But we can't predict the future so a judicial system is required and we will continue to punish crimminals out of practical necessity under the false pretence that doing so is ethical.

There is no innate objective ethical standard.
 

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#68
Re: Why am I bannned?

According to free will you could but there's the problem, how?
The exact same situation will create the exact same result, 1+1=2 no matter how many times you calculate it, input = output, the only way you could anything different would be if you we're under the affect of some external influence that wasn't present in the prior scenario.
1+1=2 dec/1+1=10 bin/1+1=1 boolean
Moreover for you to have a meaningful choice that external influence would have to somehow impart upon you knowlege of the event and its outcome before it occurs so that you are able to willingly choose another outcome.
Also, free will can simply mean a decision that comes from the circumstances, past factors, memories, decisions, that cannot be predicted having every information about this person, in other words knowing every past information that developed from something else up to the moment of decision.

So if there is no causality, or causality breaks down at some point or another, it is enough for a single impredictable factor to influence the decision to say that it was free will, as there is not a chain of events that led to this decision.
 

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#69
Re: Why am I bannned?

In an innately random universe your choices are no more meaningful so why would it matter?

Indeed if the randomness was great enough to affect our daily events from the perspective of an external observer our choices wouldn't matter anyway, a random outcome outright denies the possibility of choice.

1+1=2 dec/1+1=10 bin/1+1=1 boolean
Other than your own idiocy I have no idea what that was meant to prove.
 

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#70
Re: Why am I bannned?

@The Void
I'm buttfucking your idolized perfect nihilist, he's my bitch now.

A perfect nihilist does, thinks and feels nothing, and in every conceivable way my choice to do something because I want to is superior, at least insofar as anything matters and if nothing matters then I can't be wrong :D

*slaps that blue ass*

Edit: Blaarun lube up, you're next.

Edit2: Hey Base Groove nice avatar ;)
 
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#71
Re: Why am I bannned?

You still believe in nonsense :D

I don't believe it. Like I don't even believe I am typing in a keyboard which I am doing. But I am open to that possibility. Being not open just because how these type of views are conventionally denounced will be a biased view. But it has been long time I am not dealing with those stuff. For example: what is the extent of the placebo effect. Can that ability be trained?
Ok I had experienced stuff which is supposed to make me believe in some nonsense and it is reasonable to believe in them but at the same time I am aware of other normal possibilities, so I don't believe in them.
For me it is just a hypothesis without any good evidence ( that is exposed in my perspective. ) I had the desire to test it, and find the proof for the world, but not any more, I don't care anymore about that.
It gets the bad name because people take it too far and makes it too far fetched.
This stuff can also be some form of chemical reactions. I don't know, I am not a scientist.
We are what we do, even doing nothing is a choice.

We are what we do, it is true but depends on what extactly are 'we'. The superficial we is truly manipulated by what we do, We become what we do.
And yes even doing nothing is a choice and that is my argument when people say why I choose to do something, if I am nihilist type. Even doing nothing is doing something. Well in this dynamic universe, doing nothing will be surrendering to our own will, to the direction where life goes, and don't resist anything not even resistence. By working in aligned with the flow 'relatively' you are doing nothing.
........................................
 

Blarraun

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#72
Re: Why am I bannned?

In an innately random universe your choices are no more meaningful so why would it matter?
it doesn't, or it does, depends on your preference, this preference can stem from the predictable determinist causality or be a random or partially random event.
Indeed if the randomness was great enough to affect our daily events from the perspective of an external observer our choices wouldn't matter anyway, a random outcome outright denies the possibility of choice.
Why would you need something so abstract as purpose, quality, or extent of the random change? It is unimportant, because all these are human produced concepts that try to sort the information and information in itself is no more valuable than another set of information, it just is, a fact.
In an innately random universe your choices are no more meaningful so why would it matter?
The fact that something matters, that the information is more valuable to you than something else is your preference, it matters to you if you choose so, it will not matter objectively because there are no objective sets of information about an object that would be more important than a different set of information. 1 byte of information is worth the same, it will never be better or worse, unless you apply some perspective.
Other than your own idiocy I have no idea what that was meant to prove.
First of all why would my idiocy matter? I thought that you were trying to understand something and not label things, but I might have been wrong.

It means that you apply your decimal perspective to things where countless other perspectives can be applied without changing the situation.

Logics, numeral systems, are human construct and are by no means universal as logic cannot even support the abstraction that is the understanding of the world.

Free will is freedom of choice independant of context,, obviously the wrong one, but if the exact same scenario was repeated would the outcome have been different, in the same situation with the same motivation could you do anything different?
According to free will you could but there's the problem, how?
The exact same situation will create the exact same result, 1+1=2 no matter how many times you calculate it, input = output, the only way you could anything different would be if you we're under the affect of some external influence that wasn't present in the prior scenario.
I would say that 1+1 that is a logical construct and serves no purpose explaining what free will is.

1 is an abstraction and will continue to be this abstraction regardless of whether there is a causality or not, that is why my attempt was to show you that there are different perspectives, as your attempt in no way explained the determinism and indeterminism problem.

so it would rather be important to study a process that led to the creation of this and not another numeral system and of this and not another abstraction
 
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#73
Re: Why am I bannned?

Exactly, free will can only come in the form of a force that is its own cause, this bypasses the whole issue of why the universe exists, how it could have come to be out of nothing etc, because free will must be of itself in order not to be entangled in the causality of the universe, so it is that in every human being there is another universe whose existence unlike the actual universe is not supported by any proof yet carries with it the same logical issues.

Furthermore these forces or seperate universes must then be in a one way causal relationship with the universe so that they may not be effected by the universe but can still effect it. Of course this in turn makes free will completely impossible to prove in any way at all.

@Blarraun: Randomness just like determinism leave no room at all for agency. One could perhaps say that the universe as a whole has free will because it only does what it can and thus wants, but then we are speaking of an entirely different form of consciousness and agency. Components can never have free will.
 
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#74
Re: Why am I bannned?

The strip obliterates the hubris infesting modern civilized man, indeed I think to just be requires total acceptance, but in order to just be we must pretend that things are when they are not or at most may be in some degree.
Just being is not inaction and pretending universe is all flower and rainbow.
But it is more, like, calm down, there is nothing to do, from an absolute perspective, it doesn't matter as much as we like to believe. Right and wrong are subjective.
Now lay back, relax, and surrender not only to universe but also to our own true will.
Suppressing our desire, and practicing inaction is just another form of doing something.
So the only true doing nothing is choosing the path of least mental resistance.
When you accept everything you accept everything, your eyes got plucked, k no problem, that is how... pretending that there is an eye there is not accepting.
Acceptance = no pretending , no escaping making stories.

And then do anything you want, help, the world, help others.

Why if nothing matters? why not?
 
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#75
Re: Why am I bannned?

Ultimately I disagree with you, but I can go along with your thoughts quite a way. Things matter because we experience them as if though they mattered, simple as that, that's real meaning which exists. What we desire when we speak of purpose and of "the meaning of life" and all that is just some abstraction we crave to feed our need to be special in an incomprehensibly vast cosmos which we do not understand at all, ie a servant of our hubris.
 

Blarraun

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#76
Re: Why am I bannned?

@Blarraun: Randomness just like determinism leave no room at all for agency. One could perhaps say that the universe as a whole has free will because it only does what it can and thus wants, but then we are speaking of an entirely different form of consciousness and agency. Components can never have free will.
I am not advocating agency here. I am rather supporting the idea that there can be a set of processes that have no cause, that then are creating their own causalities.

Free will in my scenario means unpredictability of an event or decision (as a decision based on free will is unpredictable)

What is else: If there can be variables that influence a person and were created without a cause by this person, or by the fact that this person thinks or acts in a certain way, then it can be mistaken, or it can replace the idea of agency.
 
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#77
Re: Why am I bannned?

Why call it free will at all then? It does not involve decision making, it does not involve an agent...
 

Blarraun

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#78
Re: Why am I bannned?

Why call it free will at all then? It does not involve decision making, it does not involve an agent...
Free will could exist in several scenarios, it depends on how you define it.

It could exist as the decision based on motives and personal past without any other individuals or conditions influencing this person in the moment of the decision.

It could exist as a random process that along the causality of personal past impact the decision making process. This random process would not exist without this person or without this particular decision being made. In this model, the future of this individual is up to this individual, as there are some unrelated processes that were created by this individual acting upon itself and not by other individuals acting upon this individual.
 
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#79
Re: Why am I bannned?

Ultimately I disagree with you, but I can go along with your thoughts quite a way. Things matter because we experience them as if though they mattered, simple as that, that's real meaning which exists. What we desire when we speak of purpose and of "the meaning of life" and all that is just some abstraction we crave to feed our need to be special in an incomprehensibly vast cosmos which we do not understand at all, ie a servant of our hubris.
Yes of course things matter, if I kill my mom, things will matter, I have to face consequences, and stuff, I am talking it in a different sense though, right now, I am in disorganized state though, because I am multithinking, so my expression will be poor. Well language is limited, I need time to express things in organized manner, that I will do later in different comic series.
 
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#80
Re: Why am I bannned?

In an innately random universe your choices are no more meaningful so why would it matter?

Indeed if the randomness was great enough to affect our daily events from the perspective of an external observer our choices wouldn't matter anyway, a random outcome outright denies the possibility of choice.


Other than your own idiocy I have no idea what that was meant to prove.
Ye things happens out of nowhere. I have surrendered. desire for Resisting and controlling stuff only adds up to stress.

If you do something you like you will not find yourself working hard, I mean working hard but having fun, that is the path of non-resistence, finding things that we can do effortlessly. But the world can be cruel, and lead us to stuff that we don't like, in that case a little mental deception can reduce suffering. A little effort in mental manipulation and a smooth life afterwords. Path of least reistance.
Be current.

It doesn't really matter much free will or determinsm....
it is a much complex thing about which I discussed here....
http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=15506&page=4
#192
Then the main thing is in #196...
then some others are there.

But you derailed my thread, now I will bann you!
Says me, the derailmaster.
 
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#81
Re: Why am I bannned?

@The Void
I'm buttfucking your idolized perfect nihilist, he's my bitch now.

A perfect nihilist does, thinks and feels nothing, and in every conceivable way my choice to do something because I want to is superior, at least insofar as anything matters and if nothing matters then I can't be wrong :D

*slaps that blue ass*

Edit: Blaarun lube up, you're next.

Edit2: Hey Base Groove nice avatar ;)
I don't really disagree with your views and method if it had appeared that I am in disagreement with you then actually I am not.
I understand about why you do something, why not nothing and I use the
same answers you use, when I am asked. SO I don't need answers from you,
because I understand.

But my only point is nihilism or whatever, suffering can be endured.
I don't even understand why people find nihilism so depressing, when it liberated me.

There are some wierd definitions of nihilism though, I am talking about the purposelessnes, and I see it more like a game, when you play a game, the game has roles, and stuff, but you don't need to play the game, because it is vain, but we still play for leisure. Thats how life is for me, a play, a circus, a drama, a video game, I play because I play, though these days I am pretty bored of this game.

In some cases I don't take your side though because of my own ignorance and for that matter I don't take any side: A fence sitter.
 

Cognisant

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#82
Re: Why am I bannned?

Now this is just stupid.

Blarraun I've already explained how the necesscary conditions for free will negate the possibility of it existing, obsfucate your arguments all you want you're just making a fool of yourself.

Cherry Cola I think you're confusing self awareness with existential free will, I'm not saying self awareness dosen't exist, rather it does exist within a deterministic reality or at very least a reality in which the question of free will is moot because the concept disproves itself.
 
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#83
Re: Why am I bannned?

Yes of course things matter, if I kill my mom, things will matter, I have to face consequences, and stuff, I am talking it in a different sense though, right now, I am in disorganized state though, because I am multithinking, so my expression will be poor. Well language is limited, I need time to express things in organized manner, that I will do later in different comic series.
Then it sounds like were in pretty much the same boat :O

Oh well I shall await future comic series : )
 

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#84
Re: Why am I bannned?

Yet things happens out of nowhere. I have surrendered. desire for Resisting and controlling stuff only adds up to stress.
Okay go throw yourself out with the rest of the trash then, or if that's too depressing how about I impose my will upon you and you can join my ever growing harem of bitches, your life will be so much more meaningful once you accept me as your god.

I'm not pointlessly cruel, I can be beseeched, it's a good deal really.
 
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#85
Re: Why am I bannned?

@Cog

Yeah I am, ultimately one must deviate from the concepts original form to allow for free will to exist. All one can do is point to something and say: well this comes a little bit closer than this. In which case I think that the universe viewed as a whole comes a lot closer than singled out components caught in its weave.

@Blarraun

Those things aren't even the same. You can't say "it could exists as..." because you are not speaking of one "it" you are speaking of two different "it's". Ie you are changing the definition of free will to defend its being and allowing for multiple definitions to coexists as well. It's weird because one thing cannot be two different things, and also because we are obviously talking about free will as it is commonly defined.
 

Blarraun

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#86
Re: Why am I bannned?

Cog, I don't care. I wanted to explain that determinism is not necessarily correct and not that free will has to exist, however it could depending on the abstraction, or definition.

There is no such thing as original meaning of free will, there is one concept that it works in a certain way and another that it does in a different way.

If your desire was to call me a fool without trying to understand, then I couldn't care about it, ya mongrel.
 

Cognisant

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#87
Re: Why am I bannned?

Yeah I am, ultimately one must deviate from the concepts original form to allow for free will to exist. All one can do is point to something and say: well this comes a little bit closer than this. In which case I think that the universe viewed as a whole comes a lot closer than singled out components caught in its weave.
What are you an agnostic, some whishy-washy vaguely defined deist, or just too stoned to decide?

Well if Blarraun is this thread's standard for stupid I can say you're a fair bit closer to him than me, how's that for compromise?

Self awareness exists, hence the judicial system, end of story.

Cog, I don't care. I wanted to explain that determinism is not necessarily correct and not that free will has to exist, however it could depending on the abstraction, or definition.
Well you're wrong, I'm right and I take being called mongrel as a compliment because it means I'm well bred (look up: Heterosis).
 

Blarraun

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#88
Re: Why am I bannned?

Those things aren't even the same. You can't say "it could exists as..." because you are not speaking of one "it" you are speaking of two different "it's". Ie you are changing the definition of free will to defend its being and allowing for multiple definitions to coexists as well. It's weird because one thing cannot be two different things, and also because we are obviously talking about free will as it is commonly defined.
CC, I might have misunderstood, but let's do this from the beginning. About what common definition of free will are you talking about. What certain factors are and which are not constraining?
Well you're wrong, I'm right and I take being called mongrel as a compliment because it means I'm well bred (look up: Heterosis).
Fine, I don't have to explain why you are wrong while being even more wrong when not being wrong.
 
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#89
Re: Why am I bannned?

What are you an agnostic, some whishy-washy vaguely defined deist, or just too stoned to decide?
None of the above, I am an atheist. Maybe I misunderstood your last query though.
Either that or you are just not comfortable with the fact that there is no reason to say that a positive particle being drawn to a negative is any less conscious than a human qualitatively speaking, after all the particles could not interact if they weren't in a relationship ie, aware of each other and by what force other than will would they be drawn to each other? Why this awareness is and how it can be I don't know, but saying that consciousness is some distinct phenomenon which can only occur in very specific circumstances as in a human brain is pretty strange and akin to mind/matter dualism ie another form of bogus imo.
 
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#90
Re: Why am I bannned?

Okay go throw yourself out with the rest of the trash then, or if that's too depressing how about I impose my will upon you and you can join my ever growing harem of bitches, your life will be so much more meaningful once you accept me as your god.

I'm not pointlessly cruel, I can be beseeched, it's a good deal really.
Since I have surrendered to my own will and mood, and my mood is not toi throw myself in a trash can becoz you said so, I will not.

Define 'meaningful'.

Meaning is just defining what a symbol or a thing represents.

By meaningful it appears you guys try to mean 'valueful' but it is all just subjective matter.

I have lots of plan in my life, I don't have to accept you as my God, I am my own God,

I don't need to support on others. I do use others as my host though all for my grand scheme of ruling the universe.

Boohahahhahahahahhahah!!!:D :angel:
 
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#91
Re: Why am I bannned?

Nihilism isn't depressing, it's boring.

It's great to delve into, but only to get a perspective.
 
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#92
Re: Why am I bannned?

Nihilism isn't depressing, it's boring.

It's great to delve into, but only to get a perspective.
Nihilism is a perspective. It is not about boring or anything.
But nihilistic attitude in everything can make one bored about it.
It depedns though.
The same nihilism can be made interesting with this attitude:
http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=18032
Thank cog for that image.
 

Cognisant

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#93
Re: Why am I bannned?

Why this awareness is and how it can be I don't know, but saying that consciousness is some distinct phenomenon which can only occur in very specific circumstances as in a human brain is pretty strange and akin to mind/matter dualism ie another form of bogus imo.
Will implies choice, choice implies intelligence, intelligence implies that there's some information processing going, why or how you think an atomic particle processes information in such a way as to posses the intelligence to make a wilful choice is beyond my comprehension.

Congratulations you are inconceivably stupid.

I have lots of plan in my life, I don't have to accept you as my God, I am my own God,
So determinator of his own destiny, what now?
 
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#94
Re: Why am I bannned?

CC, I might have misunderstood, but let's do this from the beginning. About what common definition of free will are you talking about. What certain factors are and which are not constraining?
Nah you didn't misunderstand it was I who was being stupid, as you said it depends on how you define it. So I should've said why I think that's absurd even if it is so. Anyway starting out with my own definition:


Basically, free will as in the ability of agents to make choices unconstrained by anything. Ie a pretty categorical definition of free will. But I do not think it matters much. Social factors as well as mental factors are ultimately governed by and a result physical ones; metaphysical factors reflect our understanding of the laws by which the physical function. Hence, so long as one factor effects the will, it is connected to all factors: caught in the web of determinism. Free will being more or less makes no sense to me, either it is independent or it is dependent.

What compatibilists do is basically just mistake the sense of free will for free will. They tell us to that we have free will until we are externally constrained or coerced, but we are in a constant relationship with the outer world, we just don't notice the fact that it effects us until it does so in a way that we experience as limiting our freedom of choice. Ie we are more like a ball rolling down a slope thinking its moving by its own will when it isn't. When it hits a rock blocking its path it feels that its freedom has been taken from it, when in fact it never had any choice in rolling down that slope to start with.

Spinoza put it nicely:

“Experience teaches us no less clearly than reason, that men believe themselves free, simply because they are conscious of their actions, and unconscious of the causes whereby those actions are determined.”

This compatibilist free will is indeed possible, but it really is not the word implies. Compatibilists just change the definition to allow for free will to coexist with determinism. So indeed there are several definitions at play, but I don't get the compromising ones.

Are we to say that God exists because we feel that he does? No, that is not sufficient evidence to say that anything except the mental concept of God exists and is felt to exist as a physical being. I think the case is the same with Free Will. Once we deviate from its absolute meaning it becomes something entirely different, ie a mental concept based on what we feel is the case. A reliance on basal human intuition. Yet such intuition was never made to perceive things as they are, it was made to ensure that humans enjoy reproductive success.

It is easy to see the benefits of belief in free will from an evolutionary viewpoint, but that should only serve to strengthen the notion that it is indeed a mental construct which came to be for pragmatic reasons. To then keep on calling it the same thing as that which originally implied unconstrained agency constitutes intellectual dishonesty. For it to be debated as if though were it part of the same subject implies that it is when it is not. The difference is a big as that of an actual God and the mental construct of God.

The mental construct of free will can be allowed to exists in a ton of ways. What I would deem actual free will is impossible so far as we currently understand the universe.
 
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#95
Re: Why am I bannned?

Will implies choice, choice implies intelligence, intelligence implies that there's some information processing going, why or how you think an atomic particle processes information in such a way as to posses the intelligence to make a wilful choice is beyond my comprehension.

Congratulations you are inconceivably stupid.


So determinator of his own destiny, what now?
So now you're saying that will and intelligence are the same thing? I don't believe in choice remember?

Will does not necessitate nor imply choice, that's why we were talking about free will before, and not just will.

Congratulations for making a hasty judgement.

Edit: In fact to say that will implies intelligence, which implies choice is pretty much to say that consciousness does not exist, seeing as you like me do not think that choice exists.
 

Cognisant

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#96
Re: Why am I bannned?

Oh, semantics, like that hasn't been done before.

Well when you write your alternate thesaurus let me know, then maybe I might be able to have an intelligent conversation with you, until then I'm just assume you're an idiot because I don't argue semantics.
 
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#97
Re: Why am I bannned?

Why am I arguing semantics? Could you elaborate? What then was my principal fault before I started arguing semantics?

I kinda feel like saying:

Oh, someones pulling the "thats just semantics" card, since that someone's cornered him/herself
 

Cognisant

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#98
Re: Why am I bannned?

Why am I arguing semantics?
Will
a. The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action: championed freedom of will against a doctrine of predetermination.

If you're not arguing semantics, fuck I dunno apparently I've somehow unwittingly stumbled into an argument with someone who isn't replying in English.

I'm not cornered, I just don't know what else I can say to someone who is so completely and utterly wrong, as I said before I find your reasoning inconceivably stupid and somehow you have continued to baffle me.

Now if you don't mind I've got better things to do, and if you think you're not making a fool of yourself by all means continue your nonsense in my absence, I'm done here.
 
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#99
Re: Why am I bannned?

But since I already stated that I don't believe in choice, and it even says so in my signature why would you make that interpretation?

Linking a dictionary definition does not give a complete picture either.

Here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_(philosophy)

Funnily, Schopenhauer makes pretty much the same argument as I did. You'll also find Schopenhauer under the free will as an illusion segment of the wiki article on free will.

There is no need to be upset.
 

Blarraun

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Re: Why am I bannned?

Basically, free will as in the ability of agents to make choices unconstrained by anything. Ie a pretty categorical definition of free will. But I do not think it matters much. Social factors as well as mental factors are ultimately governed by and a result physical ones; metaphysical factors reflect our understanding of the laws by which the physical function. Hence, so long as one factor effects the will, it is connected to all factors: caught in the web of determinism. Free will being more or less makes no sense to me, either it is independent or it is dependent.
But if a choice is unconstrained by anything then it is detached from reality. The Agent lives in a different realm where only his rules apply and no one has access to it. I don't deny this possibility but wouldn't it mean that external factors would have to be a product of its awarness rather than exist out of themselves for the free will to exist?

This definition is rigid, if you disagree with solipsism and projection of the reality then you disprove this possibility automatically. It's your definition so well rigid has its positive qualities I would say.
What compatibilists do is basically just mistake the sense of free will for free will. They tell us to that we have free will until we are externally constrained or coerced, but we are in a constant relationship with the outer world, we just don't notice the fact that it effects us until it does so in a way that we experience as limiting our freedom of choice. Ie we are more like a ball rolling down a slope thinking its moving by its own will when it isn't. When it hits a rock blocking its path it feels that its freedom has been taken from it, when in fact it never had any choice in rolling down that slope to start with.
What if both are the case? What if this ball has a center of mass that can shift depending on the individual decision? Then while still rolling down the hill it would be able to redirect and choose from a limited set of paths. So there would be a personal and independent dimension of will as well as determinist and causal one.
Spinoza put it nicely:

“Experience teaches us no less clearly than reason, that men believe themselves free, simply because they are conscious of their actions, and unconscious of the causes whereby those actions are determined.”
By this you would decide whether you surrender or fight with what will be dished to you, or maybe even your decision to fight is unconsciously not yours, I don't like it but it certainly could be viable.
Are we to say that God exists because we feel that he does? No, that is not sufficient evidence to say that anything except the mental concept of God exists and is felt to exist as a physical being. I think the case is the same with Free Will. Once we deviate from its absolute meaning it becomes something entirely different, ie a mental concept based on what we feel is the case. A reliance on basal human intuition. Yet such intuition was never made to perceive things as they are, it was made to ensure that humans enjoy reproductive success.
I have come to understand the world by the many-valued logics. For me water is not truly fluid, it has a very fluid qualities, however it is a set of solid bodies that are ground to minute elements and adhesive. When I said that logics is an abstraction, I meant two-valued logics.

So in two valued-logics there are two absolutes. God either is universal or it never is. When you apply three valued logics, you know the uncertainty of the existence of a God, however someone is a believer and does things in accordance with the laws of such a being. So God at least has to be partially true, for this person this god is absolutely universal, for you it might be entirely faux, however the value of this situation is true, it does exist. It might not exist everywhere, or universally, however this man has already proven that there is a God in its life, regardless of the process that created this outcome for him.

Simply, if a God is said to require:
-followers
-powers or qualities
-background information or historical deeds

By this, it clearly has followance, it also has historical miracles or information connected to it that people consider true, also the powers of this god are ingrained in the minds of followers and may realise at certain moments.

For example, Jesus is said to be merciful and taught others his mercy. So if a man considering whether it should or should not take vengeance on others decides not to do so because of the belief it has in the qualities and powers of Jesus, then this realises these powers, even if on a minimal scale.

You cannot simply disagree and say that this man doesn't get the bigger picture, because we also don't get to see the bigger picture. I give it that this God does partially manifest itself in these people so it has to exist but that doesn't mean it is objective or universal. As what is universal? The only universal information that I have come to accept is that something exists, anything beyond that could be false, partially false or true.

Similar thing goes with other cases of determinist claims. I don't disprove them and in many situations determinist approach is useful, it similarly isn't or might never possibly be universal.
It is easy to see the benefits of belief in free will from an evolutionary viewpoint, but that should only serve to strengthen the notion that it is indeed a mental construct which came to be for pragmatic reasons. To then keep on calling it the same thing as that which originally implied unconstrained agency constitutes intellectual dishonesty. For it to be debated as if though were it part of the same subject implies that it is when it is not. The difference is a big as that of an actual God and the mental construct of God.

The mental construct of free will can be allowed to exists in a ton of ways. What I would deem actual free will is impossible so far as we currently understand the universe.
My concept of free will is connected with a common causality, there are things that form predictable patterns, while there possibly are random processes, or our entire universe approaches the random quality and will with time become unpredictable even to the omniscient.

If we believe that everything is a mental construct coming from the physical reality and from past experiences and processes, it may be so. I do not give it it's absolute power. I concluded that my belief in my ethical system and my constant revision of it, along my belief in free will, that is not really different from someone elses belief in determinism. It empowers my conviction that what I do depends on my decisions and more importantly actions, while what I hold valuable is important because I wish so. Even when I know that it all might be a dependant process and an illusion, I embrace it because of its impact on my decision making and my character that I find "right".

So I would say, that it is wrong not to know the possibility of something being an illusion, after this, it is perfectly safe to use this illusion on your own terms while controlling the degree of it.

Any definition of free will that has some partially true qualities and new concepts is valuable to me, it can be used in my thinking and development to form new processes, or processes that appear new to me.
 
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