The Random Thoughts Thread

[QuickTwist]

prior to last week I almost forgot that each human is designed as a game-theoretically optimized biological machine. In simpler terms: in the end, everyone is a selfish cunt

Game theory defines rationality in a sense of selfishness, but there are other ways to define it.

For example, let's take a look at the prisoner's dilemma:

Person A and Person B are being interrogated. If A rats out B, but B doesn't rat out A, A serves no time, and B serves 10 years. If A rats out B and B rats out A they both serve 5 years. If B rats out A, and A doesn't rat out B, A serves 10 years and B serves no time. If neither rats out the other they both serve 1 year.

Now, the usual way this is analysed, is that assuming this is a closed system, A serves less time in either case if they rat out B, and B serves less time in either case if they rat out A, so they would both rat each other out, and thus be much worse off than if they hadn't ratted each other out.

But what if the people involved looked at it like this: If A doesn't rat out B, then either the same or a lower amount of time will be served overall, and if B doesn't rat out A then either the same or a lower amount of time will be served overall. So, by looking at this from a selfless perspective, neither would rat out the other, and the total amount of time served is kept to a minimum.

I see no reason that the latter means of rationalisation is invalid or inferior to the former. I don't think it's really a proven thing that people in reality even stick to the former. There are probably aspects of both means of analysis, alongside all kinds of other motivating factors, at play in how people actually function.

They have both done wrong already so they will rat each other out.

 

[QuickTwist]

you think people make decisions in life based on the utilities of other people? Maybe on a very small scale of community, like a family unit. But other than that, it's every man to himself, my friend.

Well, yeah. I mean... some people are actually nice.

Niceness is fragile. In the long run it breaks. Only a set of morals and principles is robust. I.e. you cannot really count on people without the latter.

Niceness breaks in the long run?

On the contrary, the meek shall inherit the earth.

Do you know what this actually means for the meek to inherit the earth? It means that even though you are capable of defending yourself and getting yourself off the hook to whatever consequence, you don't do that and you serve the higher good.

 

[QuickTwist]

@Artsu Tharaz,

In the prisoner dilemma, you have to consider that both these people are grouped together as people who already did something wrong. So in the case where the meek inherit the earth, that looks like complete silence to your accuser. Because of this, you are giving the option to the other person who will likely rat you out.

Really, it's the paradigm of innocence or guilt, not nice or mean. It's about where their M.O. is. those who are innocent don't have a part to play. Those who have already done wrong will continue to play the same game.

 

[onesteptwostep]

 

[Polaris]

I keep reading 'Satan' instead of 'Santa' everywhere.


Satan is coming to you this Christmas, yay XD

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

@Artsu Tharaz
yes, but I'm talking about the real world, though – not hypotheticals. The only reason we exist is that our ancestors were wired to act in their self-interest, like every other life form on earth. If an organism has good genes, in order for those genes to survive, that organism should seek to pair off with other good genes. If it paired with bad genes out of altruism, those genes would cease to exist in a few generations. If our ancestors didn't optimize their selection process, or didn't discriminate based on their own utility, our species would go extinct pretty much at the outset. So for me, it's not really a value judgment that people are selfish, it's just biology. I personally try to act according to specific ethics and principles, but I've learned I shouldn't expect too much of that from others. (Most) people are animals.

Yes I know you're talking about the real world, you ISFJ you!

I think there's ideas going around regarding evolutionary psychology and the likes that state that altruism in a group-based species promotes survival of the group, and so the altruism genes get passed on as a result.

If there were no altruism, humanity would not survive, so it's necessary even if it gets passed on via a more indirect route.

 

[Ex-User (14663)]

@Artsu Tharaz
yes, but I'm talking about the real world, though – not hypotheticals. The only reason we exist is that our ancestors were wired to act in their self-interest, like every other life form on earth. If an organism has good genes, in order for those genes to survive, that organism should seek to pair off with other good genes. If it paired with bad genes out of altruism, those genes would cease to exist in a few generations. If our ancestors didn't optimize their selection process, or didn't discriminate based on their own utility, our species would go extinct pretty much at the outset. So for me, it's not really a value judgment that people are selfish, it's just biology. I personally try to act according to specific ethics and principles, but I've learned I shouldn't expect too much of that from others. (Most) people are animals.

Yes I know you're talking about the real world, you ISFJ you!

I think there's ideas going around regarding evolutionary psychology and the likes that state that altruism in a group-based species promotes survival of the group, and so the altruism genes get passed on as a result.

If there were no altruism, humanity would not survive, so it's necessary even if it gets passed on via a more indirect route.

Yes, altruism within a small group makes evolutionary sense because surviving and flourishing need not be an adversarial zero-sum game within a small group. But then the ultimate goal of that altruism is nevertheless the survival of each individual's genes – so it's not really altruism but cooperation with the aim of maximizing one's own utility. If a gene survives, it clearly demonstrates that it acts in its own interest and not in the interest of other genes that cannot provide it with any benefits. True altruism is definitely not a natural thing – it can only come from rationally derived values and ethics.

 

[Gyppo]

serac cares

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

serac cares

Haha shh! You're not supposed to let everyone know!

Interesting timing considering my last post was about Zarathustra.

Yes, altruism within a small group makes evolutionary sense because surviving and flourishing need not be an adversarial zero-sum game within a small group. But then the ultimate goal of that altruism is nevertheless the survival of each individual's genes – so it's not really altruism but cooperation with the aim of maximizing one's own utility. If a gene survives, it clearly demonstrates that it acts in its own interest and not in the interest of other genes that cannot provide it with any benefits. True altruism is definitely not a natural thing – it can only come from rationally derived values and ethics.

You're not seeing the bigger picture in the sense that everything is connected. What that means is that by altruism helping that which is outside itself, it helps itself regardless of whether you can trace those roots through a physical feedback mechanism like genetic survival.

 

[Gyppo]

Haha shh! You're not supposed to let everyone know!

Interesting timing considering my last post was about Zarathustra.

If you're looking for patterns, you'll find them everywhere. Quieten your mind. Try meditating and eating more hazelnuts.

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

Haha shh! You're not supposed to let everyone know!

Interesting timing considering my last post was about Zarathustra.

If you're looking for patterns, you'll find them everywhere. Quieten your mind. Try meditating and eating more hazelnuts.

o_O

Or... I could keep looking for patterns.

 

[Pizzabeak]

You can seek meaningful or meaningless ones, see what you want to see. There are no statistics that say how to distinguish which from which, what's real and not, or what the best choice to make is. So it's about balance. Enlightenment will show you the right path, if you're on it or not. Everyone makes mistakes.

Exponentially, if you look at that, computers minimize the error they were designed for. So in the future, everything will be more one to save breath and extra static electricity for processing power. It won't even take any effort to survive, like in the womb. Once you're born, and out of it, the organism must adapt to the situations to stay alive.

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

You can seek meaningful or meaningless ones, see what you want to see. There are no statistics that say how to distinguish which from which, what's real and not, or what the best choice to make is. So it's about balance. Enlightenment will show you the right path, if you're on it or not. Everyone makes mistakes.

If I give it meaning, then it has meaning. I'm fairly good at determining if a coincidence has greater significance i.e. if it wasn't truly a coincidence, but occurred due to a synched up flow of the different parts involved in the process. The coincidence I pointed out regarding the backwards names was almost certainly not random.

 

[Gyppo]

To be honest, I'm just a bit concerned, Artsu. You seem a wee bit paranoid

 

[Gyppo]

Soon you'll be looking for alien messages in newspapers. I was merely telling all Serac has a big heart.

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

To be honest, I'm just a bit concerned, Artsu. You seem a wee bit paranoid

What? There was absolutely nothing paranoid about it. I was just picking up on a meaningful coincidence/synchronous event and pointing out the synchronicity of it. Just taking note of an instance of what I keep saying regarding the flow of spirit through natural occurrences. It was an observation, not a statement that someone's out to get me or something wtf?

 

[redbaron]

"im not paranoid i just believe in synchronous events with mystical significance"

wow so true imo

 

[Gyppo]

I'm amazed my gibberish has seemed relevant enough to garner responses.

 

[Gyppo]

I'm just half heartedly being a silly.
Anything you get out of me is what you put in.

 

[Gyppo]

I don't want to make anyone angry though :'(

 

[QuickTwist]

I'm just half heartedly being a silly.
Anything you get out of me is what you put in.

BFF.

Let me show you my antique collection. We can trade, it will be fun.

 

[Gyppo]

I'm just half heartedly being a silly.
Anything you get out of me is what you put in.

BFF.

Let me show you my antique collection. We can trade, it will be fun.

Any random person who calls me their bff can indeed be my bff

 

[Gyppo]

I don't even care that that was clearly a joke

 

[QuickTwist]

I'm just half heartedly being a silly.
Anything you get out of me is what you put in.

BFF.

Let me show you my antique collection. We can trade, it will be fun.

Any random person who calls me their bff can indeed be my bff

Funny.

But I'm offended that you think I am a random person, so I don't think we can be BFF anymore. J/K

 

[QuickTwist]

I don't even care that that was clearly a joke

And here I was trying to weird you out.

 

[Gyppo]

I suppose I'm setting myself up for rejection because I feel I deserve it.

 

[QuickTwist]

You're pretty funny.

Just to be clear, I am not hitting on you or anything like that. For one, you are probably half my age. secondly, I have a feeling you are a guy and I am a guy and so, well, I'm straight.

 

[onesteptwostep]

Roger Scruton and Jordan Peterson discussion.

 

[a_ghost_from_your_past]

Why can't we just open the space of inner city roof tops for the production of solar energy?

 

[Gyppo]

You're pretty funny.

Just to be clear, I am not hitting on you or anything like that. For one, you are probably half my age. secondly, I have a feeling you are a guy and I am a guy and so, well, I'm straight.

I take it women have depreciated you by taking your heartfelt compliments to be predatory. You should probably consider the possibility you really did just want to fuck them.
But to tell a guy he's funny and think he's gonna insinuate that...

Maybe you aren't straight.
In which case I'll have you know that I am, so now you can take your sexual insecurities somewhere else

 

[QuickTwist]

lol.

 

[Ex-User (14663)]

people who walk slowly in busy places should straight up kill themselves. Or move out to the countryside. But.. no need to be rush either. Just follow the rhythm of the city, you plebs.

 

[onesteptwostep]

Speaking of cities I think on a global organic level the metropolis' are kinda like cancer spots on the face of the earth. They grow rapidly and sooner or later theyre going to be dangerous to the surface.

 

[Ex-User (14663)]

a lot of people nowadays, I suppose incentivized by whatever is going on in the cesspool called social media, are under the impression that anyone really gives a shit about where they have traveled and what they have experienced. Traveling and collecting sensory experience is a purely egotistical endeavor. No one gives a shit. You're not doing anything interesting nor producing anything of value. The only people who care are the ones who also happen to believe that collection of sensory experience is some sort of status game. As for me, if you tell me that you "love to travel", in my ears that's equivalent to "I love to jerk off" or something equally vapid.

 

[Minuend]

I've been away from intpf for a few weeks and realized it's actually kinda shit in terms of mood. I got drunk and curious so I signed back in. Holy fuck, shit is too serious. This is no way to live. What are you accomplishing? Feeling like shit and trying to make other people feel the same?

Good luck living like that the next 50 years.

 

[Ex-User (14663)]

I've been away from intpf for a few weeks and realized it's actually kinda shit in terms of mood. I got drunk and curious so I signed back in. Holy fuck, shit is too serious. This is no way to live. What are you accomplishing? Feeling like shit and trying to make other people feel the same?

Good luck living like that the next 50 years.

I personally have had a bad case of cynicism over the past weeks due to having been fucked in the ass by fate in multiple ways.

 

[Pizzabeak]

You can seek meaningful or meaningless ones, see what you want to see. There are no statistics that say how to distinguish which from which, what's real and not, or what the best choice to make is. So it's about balance. Enlightenment will show you the right path, if you're on it or not. Everyone makes mistakes.

If I give it meaning, then it has meaning. I'm fairly good at determining if a coincidence has greater significance i.e. if it wasn't truly a coincidence, but occurred due to a synched up flow of the different parts involved in the process. The coincidence I pointed out regarding the backwards names was almost certainly not random.

I wouldn't give in to paranoia much and would watch out for gaslighting techniques, so to speak. Once people know about anything you're interested in, they'll beat it into a dead horse. So this has all been talked about before already. History repeats itself. Time may not be linear, so people aren't necessarily doing things at the same time. There's no singularity in the now. There are no real ways to compute exact detail regarding Maxwell-Boltzmann gas motions for all the particles, what the standard is is averages. Even then wave equations rely on probability as the result, in and of itself, being independent of the notion of "ignorance" about a system; that's actually all we can know about atomic mechanics.

 

[Minuend]

I personally have had a bad case of cynicism over the past weeks due to having been fucked in the ass by fate in multiple ways.

So fucking what? You're gonna live your life according to random emotional whims? You're gonna shit on others because life shit on you? You think that's what we should do? Shit on others because we struggle? Is that how we prove our worth? Shitting on others while maintaining a superior position?

What the fuck, serac. You do have integrity, right? Stop fucking letting what others feel and thinking influence you like that. Other people are always going to struggle, what you choose to do has nothing to do with your integrity and values.

Fuck, stop seeking places and opinions you feel you can dismiss and control. Seek those that actually challenge you, that actually want to communicate with you

 

[Ex-User (14663)]

I personally have had a bad case of cynicism over the past weeks due to having been fucked in the ass by fate in multiple ways.

So fucking what? You're gonna live your life according to random emotional whims? You're gonna shit on others because life shit on you? You think that's what we should do? Shit on others because we struggle? Is that how we prove our worth? Shitting on others while maintaining a superior position?

What the fuck, serac. You do have integrity, right? Stop fucking letting what others feel and thinking influence you like that. Other people are always going to struggle, what you choose to do has nothing to do with your integrity and values.

Fuck, stop seeking places and opinions you feel you can dismiss and control. Seek those that actually challenge you, that actually want to communicate with you

You have a point

 

[onesteptwostep]

Philosophy 101: The Basics in 20 minutes

Got it off reddit- it's pretty good as an introduction to philosophy. Also as a side note his channel is full of MBTI related commentary- interesting to say the least.

 

[soupymess]

Major unexpected but apparently pretty common side effect/perk (except maybe when they're nightmares) of antidepressants: way more vivid dreams

 

[moody]

Major unexpected but apparently pretty common side effect/perk (except maybe when they're nightmares) of antidepressants: way more vivid dreams

Any sleep paralysis? Those can give the most vivid dreams (aka Hypnagogic or hypnopompic hallucinations).

 

[soupymess]

Major unexpected but apparently pretty common side effect/perk (except maybe when they're nightmares) of antidepressants: way more vivid dreams

Any sleep paralysis? Those can give the most vivid dreams (aka Hypnagogic or hypnopompic hallucinations).

Not so far thankfully. I've had that before and it's truly awful - didn't have any hallucinations just the awareness of being trapped in an unresponsive body. Thought I was dying the first time it happened. Kinda interesting though that the hallucinations people tend to have in that state are so consistent.

 

[moody]

Not so far thankfully. I've had that before and it's truly awful - didn't have any hallucinations just the awareness of being trapped in an unresponsive body. Thought I was dying the first time it happened. Kinda interesting though that the hallucinations people tend to have in that state are so consistent.

Indeed. I have a lot of dreams and sleep paralysis also due to medical stuff, so I can say that you eventually learn how to detach and not freak out (most days). But it's definitely shocking the first few times. If dreams ever get more disruptive over your daily life (i.e., not getting the rest you need), exercising an hour or two before bed and/or meditating right before can help.

 

[Gyppo]

a lot of people nowadays, I suppose incentivized by whatever is going on in the cesspool called social media, are under the impression that anyone really gives a shit about where they have traveled and what they have experienced. Traveling and collecting sensory experience is a purely egotistical endeavor. No one gives a shit. You're not doing anything interesting nor producing anything of value. The only people who care are the ones who also happen to believe that collection of sensory experience is some sort of status game. As for me, if you tell me that you "love to travel", in my ears that's equivalent to "I love to jerk off" or something equally vapid.

Maybe no one does give a shit, but they do give a shit about the person who's saying it so they give them the positive attention they were crying out for. It's like a hug, just that an unwilling Serac becomes entwined in it because he couldn't escape in time. Of course the supposed nobility in experiencing different cultures is jerking off all of humanity.
Also, most people care more about something mundane their friend has done than something highly impressive accomplished by someone they don't know, especially now that there are billions of us a hair's breadth away.

 

[Gyppo]

What do y'all think about James Watson, who co-authored the paper proposing the DNA's double helix structure, being stripped of his titles for his acknowledgement of the difference in average intelligence amongst races?

 

[redbaron]

i think society sux

 

[washti]

a) he's idiot who can't shut up his mouth when society cater to contrary opinions
b) he's old enough to not give a fuck
c) lab gave him titles, lab can take titles back
d) lab fired him in 2007 so no so surprise that they take them after he still express similar views . i mean if he does cause i didn''t watch documentary.

 

[Ex-User (14663)]

it's the usual story – we live in the times of weaponized political correctness. Same as the Tim Hunt case.

In the early 20th century, academics were obsessed with biological explanations of differences between peoples and races. Nowadays they are obsessed with explaining everything in terms of oppressed-vs-oppressors. I dunno what the next trend will be and who will be publicly shamed and humiliated for their opinions.

 

[Minuend]

You have a point

If you genuinely thought that you'd be someone else.