The Primacy of Touch

[Da Blob]

A hundred years ago, about 99% of babies in orphan- ages in the United States died before they were seven months old.

http://www.benbenjamin.net/pdfs/Issue2.pdf

They were scared to death, literally. I wonder why the caregivers of that era did not recognize the expression of sheer terror on those babies' faces?

We each have to deal with four demons, four great terrors and one of them is the fear of abandonment/becoming lost.


How do those who are unaware of nonverbal communication, such as INTPians, avoid feeling abandoned or lost?

 

[PhoenixRising]

I find my own way in life, so I'm never really lost. That and, if I start feeling lonely it's only a couple seconds before I get distracted by something... ooh! look, a praying mantis

 

[7even]

No wonder they cry so much.
Think you can just stick a genetically engineered hand (modified to generate exothermic heat) to a baby to shut it up?

 

[Architect]

How do those who are unaware of nonverbal communication, such as INTPians, avoid feeling abandoned or lost?

How do the clueless avoid feeling stupid when they say stupid things?

How is an INTP unaware of nonverbal communication? Anybody who has made it adulthood can read non verbal clues.

 

[DeadonDreaming]

How do the clueless avoid feeling stupid when they say stupid things?

How is an INTP unaware of nonverbal communication? Anybody who has made it adulthood can read non verbal clues.

That is somewhat condescending, for it says that people who do not understand non verbal clues aren't adults, and ignorant, for it ignores such people if it doesn't. There are a myriad of people who don't understand non verbal clues. Many people on the autistic spectrum have trouble understanding them.

 

[PhoenixRising]

How do the clueless avoid feeling stupid when they say stupid things?

How is an INTP unaware of nonverbal communication? Anybody who has made it adulthood can read non verbal clues.

I believe you are right, if I am reading your meaning correctly. An INTP who is clueless about other people's intent is someone who has not developed them self.

From my experience, it seems like intuitive types, especially introverted intuitive types, pick up a lot about people with their intuition. I'm not that great at reading body language, but I can pick up intuitively on how a person is feeling from across the room. When interacting with another person who highly intuitive, sometimes it is even possible to share thoughts, images and feelings.

My point is, perhaps intuition is just another way of sensing one's environment. Kind of like a sixth sense. While sensors use their physical senses, intuitives use their - mental.. spiritual.. whatever it is - sense.

Since INTPs are thinkers as well as intuitives, our minds may tend to drown out our intuition. This would blind us to being able to perceive the intent and feelings of others. I believe if an INTP develops their intuition, they can become even more keenly perceptive in social situations than a sensor-feeler type.

 

[DeadonDreaming]

I believe you are right, if I am reading your meaning correctly. An INTP who is clueless about other people's intent is someone who has not developed them self.

From my experience, it seems like intuitive types, especially introverted intuitive types, pick up a lot about people with their intuition. I'm not that great at reading body language, but I can pick up intuitively on how a person is feeling from across the room. When interacting with another person who highly intuitive, sometimes it is even possible to share thoughts, images and feelings.

My point is, perhaps intuition is just another way of sensing one's environment. Kind of like a sixth sense. While sensors use their physical senses, intuitives use their - mental.. spiritual.. whatever it is - sense.

Since INTPs are thinkers as well as intuitives, our minds may tend to drown out our intuition. This would blind us to being able to perceive the intent and feelings of others. I believe if an INTP develops their intuition, they can become even more keenly perceptive in social situations than a sensor-feeler type.

What about autistic INTPs? I've met a couple who were completely clueless about non-verbal communication, and it's almost insulting to them to say "Anyone who reaches adulthood understands non verbal communication". They would have a lot of stern words for anyone who makes such a general statement, since they get extremely upset when people paint the human race with broad clicks of the keyboard. I think since we're to be a safe space for people to express their "INTP-ness", we shouldn't be saying "Anyone who reaches adulthood understands verbal cues", since it marginalizes a subset of people.

 

[PhoenixRising]

What about autistic INTPs? I've met a couple who were completely clueless about non-verbal communication, and it's almost insulting to them to say "Anyone who reaches adulthood understands non verbal communication". They would have a lot of stern words for anyone who makes such a general statement, since they get extremely upset when people paint the human race with broad clicks of the keyboard. I think since we're to be a safe space for people to express their "INTP-ness", we shouldn't be saying "Anyone who reaches adulthood understands verbal cues", since it marginalizes a subset of people.

I agree. That is why I was saying that most INTPs probably don't have the ability to understand the world as sensors do. We have what I consider an even more evolved ability, intuition. One of my friends is autistic. I think he's probably an INFP or INFJ, but we mainly communicate on an intuitive level. Without an intuitive understanding, it would be difficult to communicate indeed.

What I was saying is that it is easy for thinking types to get out of balance with their logic. Sometimes the mind takes over everything, then there is no way to sense the world except with projections of knowledge of the a priori type. INTPs who become completely caught up in their logic, are those who are neglecting the development and experience of their intuitive abilities.

 

[7even]

Really? No-one is going to address the genetically engineered organic hand producing exothermic heat to that of similar temperatures as human being, scenario?

I would suggest sticking it by means of super glue to the baby, however, that may cause discomfort. I thus propose a mechanical piece of equipment that is attached to the genetically engineered hand that supports locomotion; touching the baby when required. Of-course this hand will extremely well developed, and its range of motion will be similar to that of an actual human being's hand.

This could be the solution to shutting babies the fuck up!

Picture this: A baby is sleeping in his baby bed, the advanced hand, both synthetic and organic, will be attached onto the ledge of the baby bed by the mechanical piece of equipment (its appearance is similar to that of a human arm, its only purpose is to support movement, e.g. flexion and extension of the genetically engineered organic hand). Sound sensors are installed into the hand, so, as soon as the baby starts crying, the hand automatically touches him/her (in totally appropriate places of-course, unless you buy the genetically engineered Pedo hand) - hopefully resulting in the silence of said baby.

I demand an experiment.

Hypothesis: Babies exposed to genetically engineered exothermic hands (and thus to touch) will have decreased levels of crying.
Children in orphanages not exposed to touch, will survive past 8 months, if exposed to said hand.


#Just for lulz

 

[Etheri]

Hypothesis: Babies exposed to genetically engineered exothermic hands (and thus to touch) will have decreased levels of crying.
Children in orphanages not exposed to touch, will survive past 8 months, if exposed to said hand.

I suggest conducting these tests on Antarctica. Since these babies-with the appropriate care by our beloved robots- would not need parents or other human contact (and in case of our trial, couldn't be exposed to such!), we need a human-free environment. Additionally, Antarctica has already been given up to science, and if our babies grew up, perhaps they could inhabit the place.*

If we don't influence them (too much, because we obviously regardless of our puny attempts), it'd be lovely to see how they develop. Society, beliefs, language, technology, survival...

Also, Antarctica is cold and hard to get. The location should help keep the protesting scum out. Ethics are overrated! (Or are they? )

Spoiler

*Or we could bring them into society as a freak show! Just kidding, we already have intp's for that. Oh wait. Fml.

 

[Architect]

That is somewhat condescending, for it says that people who do not understand non verbal clues aren't adults, and ignorant, for it ignores such people if it doesn't. There are a myriad of people who don't understand non verbal clues. Many people on the autistic spectrum have trouble understanding them.

Seriously, you are taking my statement that literally? Rewind, try again.

 

[Cognisant]

I think in this and the "To serve man" thread Da Blob is trying to discuses the ineffable thing that's the difference between being fed, clothed, educated, etc, and being "cared for" in a way that supports emotional wellbeing.

*ponders for a while*

Say there's children growing up in the Aperture science facility (y'know from the portal games) now they're orphans (clones or whatever) and they've never met another human being, heck they've never even seen dirt or the sky, their world is what Glados deems it should be.

In this entirely artificial environment devoid of human interaction the natural assumption would be that they would be quite emotionally unwell, but I think that depends upon how they're treated, specifically their perceptions of Glados based upon how she treats them. If their treatment suggests that Glados has an interest in their wellbeing they'll feel happy and secure whereas if they think she dislikes them for some reason or is only using them as expendable test subjects (as "objects" in Da Blob's terminology) they'll be insecure and fearful.

I think the actual qualities of the of the parental figure are irrelevant, as long as it behaves in a manner that leads the children in question to believe it cares about them then they'll have that subconscious reassurance required for psychological well being, indeed even if Glados has them performing difficult/dangerous trials as long as she's encouraging them they'll feel loved by her and continue to love her in return.

The robotic hand mentioned earlier could be a cold, hard, iron black industrial gripper, but as long as it's gentle and attentive the child will become accepting of it, especially if this is all the child has ever known, indeed if that child is later adopted by human parents it may find their soft, warm hands incredibly disturbing, which seems strange to us but remember we have the latter associative bias, of course it seems strange to us, as every bit as strange as we would seem to the child with a different associative bias.

 

[redbaron]

Assuming the point of this thread is this question:

How do those who are unaware of nonverbal communication, such as INTPians, avoid feeling abandoned or lost?

I think it's already been covered that being an INTP doesn't constitute unawareness of non-verbal communication. No point belabouring the question any more.

That is somewhat condescending, for it says that people who do not understand non verbal clues aren't adults.

Well technically no, it just says that adults understand non-verbal cues. It doesn't say you can't understand it if you aren't an adult.

It seems the point Architect was making was that it was stupid of Da Blob to draw the conclusion that 'INTP's are clueless about non-verbal communication.' in the first place. Some probably are, some probably aren't.

Arguments over semantics are pointless and boring anyway.

 

[Proletar]

Really? No-one is going to address the genetically engineered organic hand producing exothermic heat to that of similar temperatures as human being, scenario?

I would suggest sticking it by means of super glue to the baby, however, that may cause discomfort. I thus propose a mechanical piece of equipment that is attached to the genetically engineered hand that supports locomotion; touching the baby when required. Of-course this hand will extremely well developed, and its range of motion will be similar to that of an actual human being's hand.

This could be the solution to shutting babies the fuck up!

Picture this: A baby is sleeping in his baby bed, the advanced hand, both synthetic and organic, will be attached onto the ledge of the baby bed by the mechanical piece of equipment (its appearance is similar to that of a human arm, its only purpose is to support movement, e.g. flexion and extension of the genetically engineered organic hand). Sound sensors are installed into the hand, so, as soon as the baby starts crying, the hand automatically touches him/her (in totally appropriate places of-course, unless you buy the genetically engineered Pedo hand) - hopefully resulting in the silence of said baby.

I demand an experiment.

Hypothesis: Babies exposed to genetically engineered exothermic hands (and thus to touch) will have decreased levels of crying.
Children in orphanages not exposed to touch, will survive past 8 months, if exposed to said hand.


#Just for lulz

So when things get rough for baby, the human hand will pick baby up and hold baby against it's chest, lulling it to sleep with a comforting and loving smile?

Yeah no, the hand is useless. Utterly useless, no matter how advanced. Your thesis is bad, and you should feel bad.

 

[Cognisant]

Explain why.

 

[Da Blob]

Ho Hum, to rephrase the dilemma, instead of...

How do those who are unaware of nonverbal communication, such as INTPians, avoid feeling abandoned or lost?

How do those who are restricted to consciousness of words as the sole means of communication avoid negative affect caused by lack of communication?


One of the greatest errors of self-proclaimed 'Thinkers" is that childhood is something that can be ignored by adults. One of the basic problems with this attitude is that the child within each of us still exists and performs about 90% of all mental activities with its 'childish' methods. In other words, adulthood is just the 'tip of the iceberg', that which is visible above the 'surface'.

If one does not know how children think then one actually has no clue as to how adults think.

Childrens' thinking is often driven by fear. This article is rather lame, but it was all I could find on short notice. I was searching for an article on the evolution of the primal fear of abandonment into the much discussed fear of rejection.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/brainsnacks/201203/the-only-five-basic-fears-we-all-live

What can be (has been) built upon a foundation of fear?

 

[DeadonDreaming]

So when things get rough for baby, the human hand will pick baby up and hold baby against it's chest, lulling it to sleep with a comforting and loving smile?

Yeah no, the hand is useless. Utterly useless, no matter how advanced. Your thesis is bad, and you should feel bad.

I feel bad If that makes up for it.

 

[H1N1]

They were scared to death, literally. I wonder why the caregivers of that era did not recognize the expression of sheer terror on those babies' faces?

We each have to deal with four demons, four great terrors and one of them is the fear of abandonment/becoming lost.


How do those who are unaware of nonverbal communication, such as INTPians, avoid feeling abandoned or lost?

I was rereading this pdf when I had an interesting theory. Perhaps the offspring were not scared to death. Perhaps we're born with an addiction to intimacy. We've spent months in gestation surrounded by another being non-stop until the pivotal moment of birth. Perhaps we're all born severely addicted to intimacy and when weaned off, we cry a bit but are alright and when we're forced to give up intimacy "cold turkey" it's too difficult to overcome and we die from knowing no ways to cope. You don't get a counselor like most drug addicts. We can't even communicate well at that point in life. There was/is no recalling existing before the womb. There is nothing to compare having intimacy to not having intimacy. You've always been inside your mother until that point and then you're taken, left alone, and no one helps you cope with the transition and breaking of the addiction. Of course you die.

 

[Da Blob]

I was rereading this pdf when I had an interesting theory. Perhaps the offspring were not scared to death. Perhaps we're born with an addiction to intimacy. We've spent months in gestation surrounded by another being non-stop until the pivotal moment of birth. Perhaps we're all born severely addicted to intimacy and when weaned off, we cry a bit but are alright and when we're forced to give up intimacy "cold turkey" it's too difficult to overcome and we die from knowing no ways to cope. You don't get a counselor like most drug addicts. We can't even communicate well at that point in life. There was/is no recalling existing before the womb. There is nothing to compare having intimacy to not having intimacy. You've always been inside your mother until that point and then you're taken, left alone, and no one helps you cope with the transition and breaking of the addiction. Of course you die.

Yes, that is an interesting perspective, but it begs the question, concerning those who are able to survive withdrawal and learn to cope/endure a life without real intimacy.

I wonder if there are not some subcultures that actually foster 'cold turkey' experiences to create from the recovered addicts, a class of objective, heartless warrior/robots that are expendable tools?

EDIT: It could be worthy to note that the birth experience itself, is not viewed as a separation by the infant. It takes many months for an infant to realize that a primary caregiver is not part of its own body and subject to its will. The only perspective that a little god can have is that its entire universe is an extension of itself. So what happens to a god whose universe is devoid of intimacy?