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The Mythical INTJs...

dark

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If you don't feel like reading my normally sized post, skip to the *** section.

I have read the profiles on INTJs but I have never ever met anyone that fits in it. I can almost find anyone in any other profile, I had thought ENFPs were myths, until I studied more on it and realized I knew a couple. Out of my mothers family which is now about 50+ some people, I am 100% sure I am the only NT. I analyzed all the encounters with each, all the stories, I am alone in that department, but on my fathers side, his uncle was an INTP I think, while another was an ENTP. One worked for the CIA other worked for the Navy on a carrier ship. Both were very reclusive because of the careers so I don't know much about them other than the stories which tells me they fit in that, plus they are both dead now.

I am wondering if INTJs are a myth, and are NTs really that rare? In my school which is relatively small, a grade consisting of maybe 130 people, I was the only NTP in my grade, there were about 3 ENTJs though.. There was two INTPs in the grade below mine and I don't know much of the rest. I can not account for ever knowing an INTJ, I had thought one friend was an INTJ, but the more I look back it seemed silly, he definitely was an ISTP. Seems like I had quite a bit of ISTP friends, they gravitate around my ideas oddly enough. Some even start to believe they came up with the idea, haha.

Anyhow, how would I find an INTJ? Preferably a female one since I am interested in seeing that combination. But my preferences aside, I know it seems illogical, but I am starting to think they are myths, I know you INTJs exist, if you are reading this, but where? In my engineering classes there were tons of ENTJs, was a horrible experience. About 80% of the class was typical ENTJ profile with few ISTPs but not sure why they were there, the ISTPs stuck near me and we had fun. That was a typical class for me though.

I am probably a sad person to get excited about meeting a person I can talk for hours with about the science behind anything.

*** Ok I will repeat this part for those who don't like reading my huge posts. How could I find an INTJ? I know I must be looking in all the wrong places since I have yet to meet one. It feels like playing "Where's Waldo" and Waldo isn't even on the same page.

Are INTJs typical to their profiles? I know I fit some or most of the ENTP profiles but not all. I also noticed from reading most INTPs here fit the profiles of INTPs. But I also realize they are generalizations.

I have been reading things at personality cafe, and it seems most people never see them either. They are mythical cool beings. I am sure I would have meet one by now since I spend my days in the library. There is one female that is always studying, always has a book reading, but that could be any type, and I am sure she is introverted but how would one tell an INTJ just by looking?

Before I get this post too long. :elephant:
 

EyeSeeCold

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Forgot those personality profiles on the web. They're too stereotypical.

No they are not myths lol. I have known at least three.
 

Words

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Most populated NT's in my perspective of experience. My father, my acquaintances, my teachers. Two teachers. One looked like house and mocked like house...called his students "stupid" every-time they make a mistake. The other was more in tune with his Se, yet almost every word he mentions he proclaims as having double meaning(which they often do fit nicely) so clearly an Ni dom but with a rambunctious affinity for Se.
 

ProxyAmenRa

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I have met a fair few INTJs, some were awesome individuals and some were immature wankers.

I have met two female INTJs in my time. Amusingly they both thought I was immature, unintelligent and never would amount to anything. Their perception of me was more or less shaped by my associates. Though, they didn't get along either. It further amused me when I duxed every subject, was valedictorian and they failed in their attempts. I made one of them blush at the graduation ceremony when I said "I bet you anything that you now have a huge crush on me."

Anyhow, how would I find an INTJ? Preferably a female one since I am interested in seeing that combination.

I didn't know INTPf was a dating service.
 

The Gopher

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I am probably a sad person to get excited about meeting a person I can talk for hours with about the science behind anything.

Yeah well they aren't a myth my sister is an INTJ and she got me into typology after finding she matched the profile extremely well. I have never seen anyone else like her and they are the rarest type acording to the statistics.


I have met a fair few INTJs, some were awesome individuals and some were immature wankers.

I have met two female INTJs in my time. Amusingly they both thought I was immature, unintelligent and never would amount to anything. Their perception of me was more or less shaped by my associates. Though, they didn't get along either. It further amused me when I duxed every subject, was valedictorian and they failed in their attempts. I made one of them blush at the graduation ceremony when I said "I bet you anything that you now have a huge crush on me."

yeah well my sister was a straight A kind of person and knows I will never about to much ;)However she knows it's because I am lazy.
 

ProxyAmenRa

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INTJs are rare but they really do stick out unlike INTPs.

Perhaps, INTJs are over represented at debating competitions. I will report back on Sunday with my findings.
 

dark

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@ ProxyAmenRa, in my defense, INTJ females are supposedly as rare as INFJ males, which either rarity I would like to find. According to all the things I have read they are both rare, and being a person in current fashion of finding rare items, can blame video games, I like to find rare people. As for dating, I am not going to use the internet, and it seems illogical to look for someone solely on types, although I do admit most my relationships have been with either INFJs or ESFPs, not sure why:confused:.

@ EyeSeeCold, yeah I didn't think the stereotype should work since you would end up seeing only 16 actual people but in many different bodies.

I guess I would need to leave this area to find more NTs, I am sure that is what the ones that lived here did, which hopefully will happen soon within the year.
 

Anthile

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You were an ENTP, no?I might be more of an INFJ but in my experience, INTJs and ENTPs don't mix very well. They sit on the opposite ends of the NT spectrum. INTJs already dislike the spontaneity and the "just like that" attitude of the INTPs but ultimately value their analytical abilities even though they would describe being with INTPs as "like herding cats".
When INTJs deal with ENTPs, they quickly realize that the things they like and dislike about INTPs are just worse with ENTPs.

2000-06-07.gif
 

EyeSeeCold

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A love of fantasy do they have in common. They have a better chance with ENTPs than us.
 

dark

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Ok completely off topic, but would anyone know why an ENTP would be attracted to ESFPs and INFJs and them attracted to the ENTP, I mean it is a horrible outcome? I don't want to make another thread just to understand my past better. And I really didn't mean this thread to lead to this kind of things but inevitably it did.

But trying to get back on topic and regardless of my own thoughts, the male INFJ is as rare as the female INTJ. I know some have "claimed" to have seen them, but I don't think I have. I am sure it would be easier to find a male INTJ or female INFJ, but there is no fun in finding the more common. I have meet many INFJ females but never can I remember finding any INTJs, and this puzzles me, I am wondering if I really did meet them, but just did not notice because of some functions they do I just can't understand etc.
 

dark

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Ok I have now found that one my my closest friends I have ever had is an INFJ male, I am now sure I had an INTJ female friend once, now to figure out who, there is this one girl I was friends with but our relationship, which never got past friendship, ended badly, I liked her and she liked me but I was to shy to do anything, so oh well. And I think she may be an INTJ but no way in hell I am going to ask her haha.

So I am sure they aren't mythical beings, but where are they? I must say I have fun talking to INxJs.
 

Blake2010

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Hmm. After the first MBTI I took, I came up as an INTJ, however last test I came up INTP, which I believe is more accurate. My job utilises and prefers xSTJ qualities, so I feel that when I took the first test I was biased towards INTJ.

It's a bit off topic, but I feel the subtle but important difference between INTP and INTJ is a big factor in determining success in careers. I notice that when I am at work and really make an effort to plan things, and get tasks done, it often brings rewards. Some days though when I am not feeling adventurous I slip into the INTP domain of theorising, "head in the clouds" type thinking, which I occasionally get criticised for.

On the subject of INTJ females, I can't think of any that I know. My girlfriend is an INFJ and it is an interesting but difficult combination. When things are good, we balance each other out, and expand each other's point of view, but when things are bad, our differences become major points of conflict. I guess this is typical of all relationships, but I reckon particularly so in this combination......
 

Nix

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I go to a rather specialized tech school. The programming degree is chock full of NTs. I know three female intjs. Have dated two intj males and know another four intj males (know far more than that, but interact with at least four others with some frequency). The idea of them being mythical is ridiculous to me, but I suppose it's a type I kind of collect.

Some were more true to type than others. As for spotting them...erm, look for a Ni dom with an interest in systems with people as objects, not turning people into systems? That makes more sense in my head. The intj women I've known have been very direct, on point. Find a topic they are passionate about and they will drill the points down. Being Ni dom things are about intuitive leaps and going with them. I love talking to INTJs, they have an interest in my Ni leaps and unlike SJ/SPs I only have to explain three points of contact to them, not every step I made along the way.

INTJ women do what they will with relationships, it's always interesting to me. I don't think I know any NT women that well that aren't INTJ, which is odd actually. But, in relationships logic always comes before emotion. But they seem to need to figure out their Fi before they can have successful relationships, which is rough. The ones I know can chose to box away their emotions, not deal with them and it's not damaging (except for limiting the progression of their Fi).


My girlfriend is an INFJ and it is an interesting but difficult combination. When things are good, we balance each other out, and expand each other's point of view, but when things are bad, our differences become major points of conflict.

Interesting! I think I've decided if my ENFJ doesn't work out I should find an INTP. NTPs are super cute. But I imagine it would be important for me to find one that had developed Fe and I need push my Ti further to center myself.
 

InvisibleJim

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Now we all know the last thing you do to find something is to go looking. I know the concept of taking your eye off the prize may be abhorrent to the Ne dominant, but I think you'll find we are hanging around doing things that you simply don't realise. My other advice is that we can stubborn as hell; especially if you get into your head that pushing our boundaries is wise.

Good luck with your search.
 

Zeldon

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If you don't feel like reading my normally sized post, skip to the *** section.

I have read the profiles on INTJs but I have never ever met anyone that fits in it. I can almost find anyone in any other profile, I had thought ENFPs were myths, until I studied more on it and realized I knew a couple. Out of my mothers family which is now about 50+ some people, I am 100% sure I am the only NT. I analyzed all the encounters with each, all the stories, I am alone in that department, but on my fathers side, his uncle was an INTP I think, while another was an ENTP. One worked for the CIA other worked for the Navy on a carrier ship. Both were very reclusive because of the careers so I don't know much about them other than the stories which tells me they fit in that, plus they are both dead now.

I am wondering if INTJs are a myth, and are NTs really that rare? In my school which is relatively small, a grade consisting of maybe 130 people, I was the only NTP in my grade, there were about 3 ENTJs though.. There was two INTPs in the grade below mine and I don't know much of the rest. I can not account for ever knowing an INTJ, I had thought one friend was an INTJ, but the more I look back it seemed silly, he definitely was an ISTP. Seems like I had quite a bit of ISTP friends, they gravitate around my ideas oddly enough. Some even start to believe they came up with the idea, haha.

Anyhow, how would I find an INTJ? Preferably a female one since I am interested in seeing that combination. But my preferences aside, I know it seems illogical, but I am starting to think they are myths, I know you INTJs exist, if you are reading this, but where? In my engineering classes there were tons of ENTJs, was a horrible experience. About 80% of the class was typical ENTJ profile with few ISTPs but not sure why they were there, the ISTPs stuck near me and we had fun. That was a typical class for me though.

I am probably a sad person to get excited about meeting a person I can talk for hours with about the science behind anything.

*** Ok I will repeat this part for those who don't like reading my huge posts. How could I find an INTJ? I know I must be looking in all the wrong places since I have yet to meet one. It feels like playing "Where's Waldo" and Waldo isn't even on the same page.

Are INTJs typical to their profiles? I know I fit some or most of the ENTP profiles but not all. I also noticed from reading most INTPs here fit the profiles of INTPs. But I also realize they are generalizations.

I have been reading things at personality cafe, and it seems most people never see them either. They are mythical cool beings. I am sure I would have meet one by now since I spend my days in the library. There is one female that is always studying, always has a book reading, but that could be any type, and I am sure she is introverted but how would one tell an INTJ just by looking?

Before I get this post too long. :elephant:

I must be the only real INTJ that actually chats on forums. You could try Japan, I am sure there are a hell of a lot more INTJs there then any other place. INTJs are mainly interested in pursuits that give them power and influence over others. Contrary to popular belief, INTJs tend to be undereducated unless it is a pursuit that they are personally motivated towards. INTJs have few hobbies, and are mainly interested in improving their circumstances, they are more likely to leach off of others for their amusement. INTJs like to have dominance over individuals, and this is why they tend to be misunderstood. INTJs are only interested in getting something out of a conversation, and dislike small talk. INTJs only value collective ties, and dislike social friendship. INTJs can get along with any type if they have similar goals, they also use this as an opportunity to form extremely close bonds with others. To sum it up INTJs are the most collective of all the MBTI types. They have a difficult time surviving in a individualist society, and ENTJs are their natural enemy.
 

InvisibleJim

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I must be the only real INTJ that actually chats on forums. You could try Japan, I am sure there are a hell of a lot more INTJs there then any other place. INTJs are mainly interested in pursuits that give them power and influence over others. Contrary to popular belief, INTJs tend to be undereducated unless it is a pursuit that they are personally motivated towards. INTJs have few hobbies, and are mainly interested in improving their circumstances, they are more likely to leach off of others for their amusement. INTJs like to have dominance over individuals, and this is why they tend to be misunderstood. INTJs are only interested in getting something out of a conversation, and dislike small talk. INTJs only value collective ties, and dislike social friendship. INTJs can get along with any type if they have similar goals, they also use this as an opportunity to form extremely close bonds with others. To sum it up INTJs are the most collective of all the MBTI types. They have a difficult time surviving in a individualist society, and ENTJs are their natural enemy.

No. Far too absolute and pretty much nonsense for the most part. Let me fix this for you:

Fixed for your Pleasure said:
I for the moment consider that I may be INTJ. You could try Japan, I am sure there are a hell of a lot more INTJs there then any other place (Opinion: Reference needed).

INTJs are mainly interested in pursuits that give them independence from others and society which can appear to an outsider to be a need for power and influence over others. Quite in line with popular belief, INTJs tend to enjoy gaining new understanding by gaining knowledge and analysing how different systems work, but will often appear undereducated unless it is a pursuit that they are personally motivated towards and therefore decide to specialize in. INTJs have few lifelong hobbies as they have a flexible internal perspective and it is often viewed as more beneficial to change out of a mindset when it becomes boring and to aim for something of more interest. They are interested in improving their circumstances throughout life and are not likely to leach off of others for their amusement due to their tendancy to be observers and their lack of interaction empathy; however, they may decide to interact with people who spark their interest.

INTJs like to have dominance over most things which effect their life on occasion even individuals because they often feel this can be the best way to secure their own individuality and independence. This is why they tend to be misunderstood and it is often an attempt to set up a relevant distance to avoid misunderstanding based upon the INTJs past experience, which may be irrelevant to the situation.

INTJs dislike small talk. INTJs only value collective ties as a means to an end, and dislike casual social friendship instead preferring few deeper friendships that are built on a basis of respect and understanding. INTJs can get along with any type if they have similar goals, they also use this as an opportunity to make useful acquaitances with likeminded individuals which can often lead to a deeper friendship as this develops.

To sum it up INTJs can be seen as the most individualistic of all the MBTI types as they have neither prominent introversion or extroverted feeling archetypal preferences, similar to INTPs. They have a very pleasant time surviving in an individualist society.
 

Nix

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OP, go here: http://intjforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=61 read a couple threads and then maybe make one. I've been over there for sometime. It's easy to overgeneralize people, but it's important to remember INTJs are just Ni doms, with a secondary of Te. They come in a variety of developed functions and shadow functions. Most of the ones I've met have non-existent Fe, but adorable Fi they keep locked up tightly. Very cute when they get sentimental, but a rare thing.
 

Fiddling Lass

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My dear mother is an INTJ and she herself says the descriptions fit her quite well, and I'm inclined to agree. So yeah. :P
 

Zeldon

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I sometimes wonder if I really exist... Perhaps I really am one of those mythical INTJs.
 

SpaceYeti

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I sometimes wonder if I really exist... Perhaps I really am one of those mythical INTJs.
You know you exist in wondering if you exist. Wondering is thinking, which is an action. You know the action is taking place because you're doing it. Even if you're nothing more than a "thinking thing", everything you perceive beyond that an illusion, you still know you exist as a thinking thing.

Someone said the whole "I think, therefore I am" was BS or stupid or something like it, but I'm pretty sure they were either joking around or just a pompous ass who didn't know what he was talking about.
 

Mary

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One of my closest female friends is an INTJ, pretty sure she's not mythical. xP

She is insanely awesome, though. We stay up all night discussing all sorts of stuff. Science, politics, psychology, art, you name it, we got it!

(Nix is right - you NT males are absolutely adorable.)
 

Zeus

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I'm one of the Mythical INTJ's. I joined this Forum because of some balloon fetish comments others had posted in the Psychology & Neuroscience section.
By age six I was telling people I would be an Engineer and build cars, that's what I do. All the MTBI surveys I've taken say I'm INTJ.
 

InvisibleJim

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Advice to the op: look for Pi-Je. The ones which are a little bit odd and off kilter in terms of how they view reality and don't care much for people are usually INTJs.
 

Zensunni

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I've taken the test a few times and one time I was found to be INTJ. Granted it was not the long form of the test but there you go.

You wanna ask a part-time INTJ a question?
 

kibou

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INTJs, like all types aren't always obvious to spot out; one of the most well-dressed, well-exercised SP-surrounded guy I knew was an INTJ; you can still kinda tell he's an INTJ but he flirts with an ESFP lifestyle all the time.
 

XXXX

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^^ Along those lines I've noticed quite a few INTJ are hardcore into fitness with bodybuilding, powerlifting, figure (women), CrossFit, ultra endurance sports and the like (maybe just as much if not moreso than SP types??).

Quite a few of the younger INTJ guys also seem to be attracted to the PUA (pick-up artist) lifestyle/training for a while too.
 

EyeSeeCold

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^^ Along those lines I've noticed quite a few INTJ are hardcore into fitness with bodybuilding, powerlifting, figure (women), CrossFit, ultra endurance sports and the like (maybe just as much if not moreso than SP types??).

It's just a show because they're unable to handle real-time aggression. Just like INTPs act super nice and everything because we suck at real-time socializing.
 

kibou

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Yeah, I definitely think there's some truth to this, I's in general don't work in real-time so preparation ends up being important. I've noticed the introvert more likely tries to be charming by pre-gaming their looks, cloths, etc, so they can have the people come to them. If they're good at having people come to them, their introverted temperament becomes less hidden.

INJ's can definitely do a lot of physically intense things as part of their lifestyle, albeit for completely different reasons than ESP's...I think of how Muhammed Ali was an INFJ. Damn inferior Se!
 

kibou

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Yeah, I definitely think there's some truth to this, I's in general don't work in real-time so preparation ends up being important. I've noticed the introvert more likely tries to be charming by pre-gaming their looks, cloths, etc, so they can have the people come to them. If they're good at having people come to them, their introverted temperament becomes less hidden.

INJ's can definitely do a lot of physically intense things as part of their lifestyle, albeit for completely different reasons than ESP's...I think of how Muhammed Ali was an INFJ. Damn inferior Se!

On a side note, I've heard repeatedly from Math graduate students that Math professors tend to work out A LOT. I was told this is because you have to keep up your body for the brainpower necessary for math, but I suspect this also might be an NJ thing (tertiary or inferior Se)...everyone I know who is going into the field is an NJ of some sort (including ENFJ), or an NTP.
 

kibou

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Ok completely off topic, but would anyone know why an ENTP would be attracted to ESFPs and INFJs and them attracted to the ENTP, I mean it is a horrible outcome? I don't want to make another thread just to understand my past better. And I really didn't mean this thread to lead to this kind of things but inevitably it did.

But trying to get back on topic and regardless of my own thoughts, the male INFJ is as rare as the female INTJ. I know some have "claimed" to have seen them, but I don't think I have. I am sure it would be easier to find a male INTJ or female INFJ, but there is no fun in finding the more common. I have meet many INFJ females but never can I remember finding any INTJs, and this puzzles me, I am wondering if I really did meet them, but just did not notice because of some functions they do I just can't understand etc.

There's a number of us, but a lot of us are good actors and actresses and become hard to guess. A lot of INTJs I've known look like SPs. They really dress it up and do the workout routines like a hip ISFP! And I think a lot of INFJs wouldn't know themselves they are INFJs...
 

passingby

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Rofl, this thread has some keen observations about INTJs, has me chucklin.
I, am INTJ.



































































NOW KNEEL BEFORE ME!!:twisteddevil:
 

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TheHmmmm

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It's just a show because they're unable to handle real-time aggression. Just like INTPs act super nice and everything because we suck at real-time socializing.

Pfft, no. It's for the sexy sex.
 

soraya

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Haha, it is for the sexy sex.

I am INTJ female and I fit the INTJ description remarkably well. We exist!! we are extraordinarily rare though...
 

shoeless

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can i just say, there's no way in hell you could know all those people well enough to actually accurately type them.

INTJ's exist, they're just random people like everybody else, and you shouldn't really be concerned with type as much as you should be concerned with finding people you are interested in/click with.
 

Christina

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uhh...

I am apparently an INTJ according to the myers briggs test

I am female

I am the only INTJ female that I know of so I'm going to assume that they are difficult to find...

Oh before I forget I'd like to add that I looked around and apparently like the INTP forum there is also an INTJ forum http://intjforum.com/
 

Aramea

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I (INTP) dated one. Don't try it at home, folks. Somehow, I just knew there was emotion in there, just knew it. When he tried to express it, it was very fact-based, "I just know that we have a future together". The only time I saw genuine feeling was when I got him to drink a couple beers. It was on his face, not verbally expressed. It was charming, but the feeble Fe beast in me needed to be fed real meat once in awhile :) ...

He was wonderful to talk to though. He would say the most amazing things and soaked it up like a sponge. He probably needed me for data processing, in hindsight. I always wonder why he liked me, as he was much smarter, but I think I understand it now.

I have known some others more casually. Try poker clubs if you want to find them. I am decent at poker, but I have a hard time with bluffing and I can't remember what's in my hand so I keep looking at my cards. INTJ's seem to be able to remember hands from a LONG time ago and they are very good so he or she will be the one saying "why did you play 10-8 off suit in that tournament 3 summers ago. You weren't even small blind". The INTP will be constantly looking at her hand and staring off into space :p ...
 

Cavallier

Oh damn.
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^In my experience INTJs are not really the emotional snuggly sort as you pointed out.

My mother is an INTJ and despite being a relatively well rounded and healthy individual who cares about me deeply she can't hardly bring herself to say "I love you" to me or anybody else for that matter. When she does it's very awkward. However, she's got your back when it comes to practical stuff. If I have a practical problem I can ask her about it and she'll come up with the most affective and feasible solution for me to follow plus a list of numbers to call and tactics for dealing with mishaps that might occur. I think most INTJs show their affection by doing things for you and not by hugging or being very emotionally effusive.

They do leave you wondering though. I sometimes think she doesn't really love me so much as take care of me because I'm one of her responsibilities. She's very responsible after all. Perhaps it doesn't really matter.
 

Christina

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^In my experience INTJs are not really the emotional snuggly sort as you pointed out.

My mother is an INTJ and despite being a relatively well rounded and healthy individual who cares about me deeply she can't hardly bring herself to say "I love you" to me or anybody else for that matter. When she does it's very awkward. However, she's got your back when it comes to practical stuff. If I have a practical problem I can ask her about it and she'll come up with the most affective and feasible solution for me to follow plus a list of numbers to call and tactics for dealing with mishaps that might occur. I think most INTJs show their affection by doing things for you and not by hugging or being very emotionally effusive.

They do leave you wondering though. I sometimes think she doesn't really love me so much as take care of me because I'm one of her responsibilities. She's very responsible after all. Perhaps it doesn't really matter.

Sounds to me like she loves you very much. You're probably in her thoughts all the time. People don't do that for just anybody. I don't think I really recall saying 'I love you' to my parents but instead I'd rather take them out to eat good food or do anything for them in anyway that I can. I don't think I've ever said 'I love you' to my sister really at all but I take her out to eat ice cream and that makes her happy. I don't do those things for just anybody.
 

TylerRDA

One of the wonders of the world is going down
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I'm an INTJ. You found me. Sorry it took so long, I was off feeding my unicorn.
 

dark

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:D INTJs are quite interesting little creatures. I have met a couple now, one in particular is one of my best friends now.

I think the reason they are not so easily to find is because of how they blend into what their interests are. My friend, which I will not say all INTJs are like her, seems to be my mirror image in almost all manners. She is outgoing yet obviously introverted. I had figured NTPs were the best chameleons, but she seems to be even better. She doesn't mimic things, but more or so becomes part and almost invisible, yet at the same time interacting with things.

I am wondering, if any one else has an INTJ friend, or is an INTJ and notices these same things.

I would also like to state that, maybe INTJs aren't mystical, not even rare as I had thought before. INTJs just seem very good at blending into their surroundings, because she has told me that she essentially wears a mask in public, and is completely different alone in her room. Which I am thinking is not the same for all introverts. Because from viewing an ISTP, ISFJ and 2 INFJs I find they are the same alone and in public, though one of the INFJs seems to be slightly different in public, but I think that may be because of other factors. I have also befriended an ISFP, very interesting to talk to, but have only conversed with him during classes or between classes.
 
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