The logic behind alternating e/i in function ordering of MBTI types?

[SkyWalker]

What is the logic behind alternating extraversion/introversion in function ordering of MBTI types?

For example, INTP:
Dominant: Introverted Thinking
Auxiliary: Extraverted Intuition
Tertiary: Introverted Sensing
Inferior: Extraverted Feeling

Question 1: What is the source? What is the first book that pointed this out and why? (I didn't find it in Jung's book Psychological Types)

Question 2: What is your own opinion WHY?

Question 3: If introversion and extraversion have to be balanced (if i just assume that that is true, although nobody can explain to me why), can't I use one very strong introverted function to balance 2 extraverted functions? why do they have to alternate perfectly one-on-one? Why not 40% Ti balancing 25% Ne and 15% Fe and then 20% left over for the other functions, thus giving the order of: Ti, Ne, Fe, etc (thus 2x extraverted functions in a row in the order of dominance).

 

[Jennywocky]

Question #1. I don't recall the answer to that right now, I've been out of type studies for awhile. However, the theory seems to be the dominant theory out there.

Question #2. I don't have an issue with it because it seems to be accurate for enough people... or at least helpful to them, as a lens to examine themselves through.

The primary and secondary ordering makes sense in that, the way the functions are defined, you need an extroverted process and an introverted process paired together in order to function in the real world.

This is why when we see dysfunctional people, sometimes this occurs because either their extroverted or introverted process (the balancing process for their primary or secondary) is missing/weak. For example, with INTPs, one typical permutation is the INTP relying on Ti + Si in order to protect the INTP from having to deal with external reality, so the INTP becomes ineffectual in the real world as well as not having a good sense of what "reality" is, which in turn distorts the principles calculated by Ti. INTPs need a healthy Ne function in order to get out of their own heads and collect actual world data and sense possibilities enough to act. Likewise, ISTPs who withdraw from reality into a Ti+Ni loop have a rationality that tends to descend into paranoia because the Ni function focus on underlying motivations and there is no Se to collect data to use to separate good suspicions from bad ones.

As far as tertiary and inferior functions, there are two schools of thought. One says that secondary, tertiary, and inferior can all be the same direction of energy flow, and running counter to the primary. The other, seen more often, is the familiar alternating flows of energy.

Typical rationality for the inferior being opposite is that the weakest function is likely to be the opposite of the strongest function. (One avoids the weakest function, the function that causes the most anxiety when used; and instead one focuses on the function/perspective most easily used or able to view life through.)

Question 3: I think what you are describing here now is REAL type dynamics, vs IDEAL type dynamics. The theory you are criticizing is just the model, but as we all know, while the basic model might seem to be helpful, individuals can and will deviate from it.

I think there's lots of variation on type development, and it can accommodate your idea here. I even find that there are some people who actually use their secondary more than their primary (with the resulting problems) -- or at least the functions are kept contained in their separate i/e hemispheres -- but if you look at their basic type, it remains the same. The secondary fixation just flavors their character and changes their accompany problems/strengths. Just take a function test (which rates all your functions' strengths) and note how your ordering and strengths might deviate from the theoretical norms. It doesn't mean the theory is bad, per se, but you can then examine why your functions might play the role they do in your life, what you might want to change, and how you can incorporate them to make yourself stronger.

 

[Words]

Question 1: I think part of it should be in that book. I remember him describing "types" based on their dominant functions.

Question 2: The reason why I adhere to this model is because of what I perceive as my own personal relationship with my perception of it. That is, based on my own observation of myself, I am most disinclined towards Fe and second most disinclined towards Si...in general. At times, I feel stimulated by my lower functions so I wonder if there is something else to it.

Question 3: If I felt that I had an order of Ti Ne Fe Si, then I guess I would just form a better model. I'm not exactly sure why Introversion has to be followed by Extroversion vice versa. I've observed people who are far too engaged in the external and appear Je-Pe and people who are far absorbed in their own thoughts, Ji-Pi. Perhaps the E/I order is to emphasize the importance of having to use the introverted and extroverted functions in a society. Cooperation is required in society hence, Extroversion. Introversion is necessary to lessen excessive group-mentality.

 

[GarmGarf]

Typical rationality for the inferior being opposite is that the weakest function is likely to be the opposite of the strongest function.

There is also the function role argument (Pod'Lair have a good conceptual understanding on this) - that one requires a Pe, Pi, Je and Ji function to survive.

 

[SkyWalker]

Pe, Pi, Je and Ji ?????? Where did you get that from? I only know Jung and MBTI: P and J are not functions, they are indicators to which functions are stronger: P=S or N dominance, J=T or F dominance

 

[SkyWalker]

The primary and secondary ordering makes sense in that, the way the functions are defined, you need an extroverted process and an introverted process paired together in order to function in the real world.

WHY? What is the deeper underlying reason?

 

[BigApplePi]

Alternating Logic Formula

JennyW & others. Check this out for errors because I don't know if it's right.

1. Everyone has T/F/S/N and E/I as long as we are "whole" people. Some functions we are at ease with and some are uncomfortable, but we have them all. 4 x 2 = 8 possibilities.

2. T/F, S/N, and E/I are opposites. They can't operate at the same time. If one wishes to appear, the other goes.

3. We try to determine our most comfortable of the possibilities. For an INTP, that's Ti.

4. E comes next because the dominant I must deal with the real world. F can't be next as T dominates and would give F trouble. So next must be N or S. That is arbitrary, but for an INTP, it's N. That means Ne for an INTP.

5. That leaves E/I and F/S. These are determined, comfort-wise. The T is so strong, it can't be F. It must be S next. So is it Se or Si? We already have Ne as a secondary force. E is taken by N, so S must be I and we have Si. The I/E alternation is not magic but is deduced.

6. That leaves F. Ti overpowers F together with its I. So it must be Fe, not Fi.
Q.E.D.

7. Do the same with the other 15 personality types. I haven't done it.

 

[GarmGarf]

Pe, Pi, Je and Ji ?????? Where did you get that from? I only know Jung and MBTI: P and J are not functions, they are indicators to which functions are stronger: P=S or N dominance, J=T or F dominance

You are correct in your understanding that there is no cognitive function called, say "Extraverted Perceiving (Pe)". However, it can still be useful to use the term "Pe" to be a place holder for Ne/Se. When I use "Pe/Pi/Je/Ji" I am using them as place holders for the functions that fill their slots.


Also, to give a more well-rounded answer in general to all your questions:



Everyone needs all four of what I call the "flavours" or "languages": N; S; T; and F. This is because everyone needs a way to be interpretive and literal, and to use logic and values. If someone lacked any or multiple of these at their conscious disposal, they wouldn't be able to deal with life.

Everyone also needs all four of what I call the "roles": Pe; Pi; Je; and Ji. They are all required to fulfil four sets of critical roles.

There are a total of 4 combinations of (four) functions which fit both these criteria: Ne + Si + Te + Fi; Ne + Si + Fe + Ti; Se + Ni + Te + Fi; and Se + Ni + Fe + Ti.


Nature has found a way to specialize humans by granting us the cognitive function hierarchies - they determine: which functions each of us have at our conscious disposal; which give us mental energy; which drain us; and in what order of proportions (ratios) do they give/drain our mental energy. These hierarchies have been interpreted by many humans as "personality types".

(The hierarchies do not determine how well developed or powerful one's cognitive functions are; they just determine how much stimulation (or lack of) each function gives one.)

The first function in each hierarchy is the dominate - its use grants the most mental energy for the user. The second function is the auxiliary - its use grants less than the dominate, but still some mental energy for the user. The most efficient/functional combination for the dominate and auxiliary is that they are of opposite attitude (I vs E), and of opposite (ir)rationality (P vs J) - this is because with a two function combination like that, one can deal with challenges that require: an introverted function; an extraverted function; a perceiving function; and/or a judging function.


However, some challenges in life require more specific cognitive function classifications; e.g: that a N, S, T or F function must be used, or a Pe, Pi, Je or Ji function must be used. For this reason, nature has granted each of us two additional functions, but these drain us when used. These are: the tertiary, which drains us a bit; and the inferior, which drains us the most.

It is true that it would have been best if the tertiary was of the same attitude as the auxiliary, and the inferior was the same attitude as the dominate, for then the functions would go: EIIE or IEEI - the best balances. However, an equally or more important thing to be balanced is the (ir)rationalities: JPPJ or PJJP, which also go hand-in-hand with the "flavours" (N/S/T/F), together making them defiantly the higher consideration. The EIIE/IEEI ideal is not compatible with the JPPJ/PJJP ideal, for if they were both applied by nature, then one wouldn't get a conscious arsenal of all the four roles (each person would then have two pairs of Pe/Pi/Je/Ji and lack the two others). Thus, the EIIE/IEEI ideal takes one for the team and becomes EIEI/IEIE to accommodate the four roles.

Combining the JPPJ/PJJP and EIEI/IEIE principles, we have: Je-Pi-Pe-Ji; Ji-Pe-Pi-Je; Pe-Ji-Je-Pi; and Pi-Je-Ji-Pe as the four allowable arrangements. There is thus four allowable hierarchies per each of the 4 combinations of (four) functions, making 16 types.

 

[Words]

Pe, Pi, Je and Ji ?????? Where did you get that from? I only know Jung and MBTI: P and J are not functions, they are indicators to which functions are stronger: P=S or N dominance, J=T or F dominance

My understanding:

Introversion(Perceiving(N+S) + Judging(T+F)) + Extroversion(Perceiving(N+S) + Judging(T+F)) = Cognition

WHY? What is the deeper underlying reason?

To survive as a human and to survive as a polis. Imagine a completely extroverted world and imagine a completely introverted world.

 

[SkyWalker]

Introversion(Perceiving(N+S) + Judging(T+F)) + Extroversion(Perceiving(N+S) + Judging(T+F)) = Cognition
.

Yes that is quite clear, but is this required as well?:

Introversion(Perceiving(N+S) + Judging(T+F)) = 50%
Extroversion(Perceiving(N+S) + Judging(T+F)) = 50%
thus:
Introversion(Perceiving(N+S) + Judging(T+F)) = Extroversion(Perceiving(N+S) + Judging(T+F))

could a human function when this is not the case? and WHY (not)?

 

[Words]

Yes that is quite clear, but is this required as well?:

Introversion(Perceiving(N+S) + Judging(T+F)) = 50%
Extroversion(Perceiving(N+S) + Judging(T+F)) = 50%
thus:
Introversion(Perceiving(N+S) + Judging(T+F)) = Extroversion(Perceiving(N+S) + Judging(T+F))

could a human function when this is not the case? and WHY (not)?

I'm not sure if quantifying preferences is such a great idea. Also, I don't quite understand why you wrote "E=50% and I=50%". It's as if you were suggesting "ambiversion", hence, an "absence of natural inclination"(which is not exactly the center of the argument(or so I thought)).

I would suggest that although both E functions and I functions have significant roles, one would has to be more preferred than the other to result into something like "75%E-25%I".

If introversion and extraversion have to be balanced

I just noticed this. They shouldn't be "balanced in terms of preference"(else no preference). hence, the order of functions.

 

[BigApplePi]

To survive as a human and to survive as a polis. Imagine a completely extroverted world and imagine a completely introverted world.

In a completely introverted world everyone would be into their own thing, people couldn't share and any individual wouldn't be able to interpret the outside world. They couldn't interpret correctly what the other person was saying.

In a completely extroverted world, no one would be able to reach another either as they wouldn't be able to interpret how anything external was meant for them.

You'd better try it though to make sure.

 

[SkyWalker]

I don't quite understand why you wrote "E=50% and I=50%". It's as if you were suggesting "ambiversion", hence, an "absence of natural inclination"(which is not exactly the center of the argument(or so I thought))..

It's because you guys say that e/i balance each other out in the function order. I am trying to make you guys think about that!

If there is balance like that then sum(e)=sum(i) (sum(e)=50% & sum(i)=50%), but then it all of a sudden sounds wrong: like everybody is ambiverted!

So again: if it's quite normal that they are not balanced, then why the alteration???

 

[Words]

In a completely introverted world everyone would be into their own thing, people couldn't share and any individual wouldn't be able to interpret the outside world. They couldn't interpret correctly what the other person was saying.

In a completely extroverted world, no one would be able to reach another either as they wouldn't be able to interpret how anything external was meant for them.

You'd better try it though to make sure.

Build miniature artificial life?
YouTube - Baboons gone mad

It's because you guys say that e/i balance each other out in the function order. I am trying to make you guys think about that!

If there is balance like that then sum(e)=sum(i) (sum(e)=50% & sum(i)=50%), but then it all of a sudden sounds wrong: like everybody is ambiverted!

So again: if it's quite normal that they are not balanced, then why the alteration???

What alteration?

 

[SkyWalker]

what alteration? the alteration of e/i in MBTI function ordering, duh


and i know MBTI is just a simplified model of boxing all posibilities (so exceptions are possible), but why are the main boxes all alternating?
why isnt there a main box with Ti, Ne, Fe, etc (2x e: Ne&Fe, following each other). why does this NOT happen that much in real life? (because that is what follows from the way that MBTI is "boxed")

 

[EyeSeeCold]

I R Baboon

 

[GarmGarf]

what alteration? the alteration of e/i in MBTI function ordering, duh


and i know MBTI is just a simplified model of boxing all posibilities (so exceptions are possible), but why are the main boxes all alternating?
why isnt there a main box with Ti, Ne, Fe, etc (2x e: Ne&Fe, following each other). why does this NOT happen that much in real life? (because that is what follows from the way that MBTI is "boxed")

You're born a type. Only certain types are allowable, dictated by nature/evolution/God/whatever.

The cognitive function order you were born into determines which functions you can consciously use, and which of these give/take you mental energy with use, and in what ratios - this was nature's way of preparing you for life but also specializing you.

All the people who don't fit these "boxes" are people with severe mental abnormalities and it's amazing that they are surviving at all.


However, you can develop your functions in whatever order you like*. For example, I'm an INFJ, so my hierarchy goes: Ni-Fe-Ti-Se. However, (I reckon) my order of function development goes: Ni > Ti > Fe > Se. Regardless, Fe still gives me some energy with use and Ti drains some.

(*= Well, one's dominate will probably always be their most developed function, but after that it's a free-for-all.)

 

[walfin]

1. Gifts Differing perhaps?
2. I don't know if the functions even have any real basis. Now, we know that some parts of our brain process vision, others speech, others movement, etc. But as far as I know there haven't been brain scans done which show that a particular region does Ti or Te or what have you. I've read that scans have been done of monks when they're trying to meditate in order to "generate compassion", though, and apparently some region of the brain tends to light up - perhaps that is something to do with the cognitive functions, sounds like Fe or Ni or a mixture or something else. But currently we don't know if F & T are really combinations of other things, and whether F actually has much in common with S (for instance) and is not an independent function, or there is some other thing which may be considered a cognitive function (since it does something distinct from other cognitive functions) called, perhaps, X.
3. You're right. Why not? We may very well be Ti Ne Fe Se, for all we know, if our Ti is too powerful and there needs to be some balance.

 

[Words]

what alteration? the alteration of e/i in MBTI function ordering, duh


and i know MBTI is just a simplified model of boxing all posibilities (so exceptions are possible), but why are the main boxes all alternating?
why isnt there a main box with Ti, Ne, Fe, etc (2x e: Ne&Fe, following each other). why does this NOT happen that much in real life? (because that is what follows from the way that MBTI is "boxed")

The alteration may have to do with the idea that humans cannot be too extroverted vis a vis too introverted.