Re: In response to the ENTP wanna-be ENTP
Yah, yah, it took me a while to respond. Interesting and humorous stuff going on here, an ENTP wants to be more like an ENTP.
Right on
Unless you want to get retarded ideas in your head, hesitate with Sociology
I have yet to find anything valuable out of those people…and if you’re wandering around those parts, I know your curiosity cannot be stopped – but, observe it first with a long stick that keeps the stench from frying your brain cells.
Quite. In fact I found their system of MBTI type interrelationship daft. To think that a mere linear algorithm could be fitted to the intricacies of the interactions between the various types and their idiosyncracies is a great example (once again) of an idealist misconceived as rational.
I'll check it out
You might be ENTP
As an ENTP myself, though, I’d like to point out that I think there’s a chance you are already an ENTP.
In retrospect this actually makes a great deal of sense. What I mean is that perhaps due to the nature of certain restraints during my upbringing I was not interactive at a highly social level. When I did interact with others, it tended to be with other (hahah) adults because I did not comprehend the preoccupation of my age peer-group with such childish fancies as I had already outlived in my earliest years (if that - because I don't rightly recall ever being involved in much childish thinking except reenactments from movies and tv series - and that was fun because it involved and required improvisation!).
Also, it comes to mind that the first (and only) band manager I ever had told me once that I was much more like Mr. Gabriel from Genesis and would be better suited to doing my own projects where I was in relative direction of the creative assembly of things. At first, I was offended - I thought who does this man think he is telling me that I will never connect with anyone?!?! Clearly my perception was one of being typecast as a non-collaborating solo act which prospect I found frighteningly confining! I enjoy collaboration! So much so that I continually sought it out musically - to spin off others' ideas is the most amazing process there is! I love it! =) Anyway, it was years later - in fact just recently, that I came across a page on famous MBTI types and saw the Mr. Gabriel, ipse, was classified as an ENTP! Suddenly, gone were the fears previously associated with the band manager's opinion and I felt this enthusiasm! I thought, gee - if I could just push more envelope on my extroversion I could become a lot like Gabriel in his approach to things. My perception of him had essentially changed, see, over the past few years especially, and after seeing early videos of him on youtube performing with his early Genesis group! How amazing! What energy, freedom! Yes, this is sort of my natural desire for expression which I have experienced when in a group and singing performing with them. I have a natural tendency to pop-out.
- ENTPs are perhaps the most reserved of the extraverts. We don’t get along with everybody, we are still foremost NTP (the types are very closely related), and this means our abstract pursuits and interests aren’t often in alignment with most people. Also, our extraverted operation is tertiary, and it is extraverted perception that leads us, observing depth, learning new things, taking in more abstract information with which we use our introverted operation (Ti) to systematically categorize, find variables and then our extraverted intuition comes into play further by interconnecting relationships between these models. What if you’re an ENTP who just doesn’t get along with many people (common), and isn’t typically extroverted (with the ‘o’, outgoing, and all that; not direction of psyche).
This actually makes a great deal of sense to me. I am a closet extrovert lol
- who knew??? My best friend swears up and down that I am NOT an introvert - and people, I have noticed, seem a bit awed by my shear lack of intimidation when broaching subjects with complete strangers sometimes quite randomly in public. However, I had merely attributed this to a desire to have social interaction of which seemed to have very little. Therefore I was interpreting myself as a starved introvert trying to get out - when in fact I may have been a starved extrovert with general frustration at my ability to converse with other interesting types? My point of confusion does lie in this plane, however, that if introversion/extroversion is simply how we 'get' our energy recharged, then is it possible that we have multiple ways of doing so? When I am seemingly defeated in my attempt to achieve positively reinforcing social interaction do I then break down into a mode of introversion from which I am apt to recover and pounce back (or if not, dream and desire to!) into the course of new interaction? What initially clued me to such possibilities was the idea from the enneagram thinggy that we have central archetypes with auxiliary poles that we extend toward when we are in good from and running well and when we are broken - more or less; from looking at my type according to this analysis it made great sense because when I am fine and exemplary in fact I tend toward the leadership spectrum quite a lot more than not and when I am suppressed by the tide of superimposed weaknesses I tend toward quiet introspection and at its extreme toward dissolution and apathy - which is quite extreme and considerably more rare =)
- You wanted to involve more people, brainstorm ideas and so on. You figured that other people could benefit from this exercise, things can be learned, and more can be done by collaboration – you created a wiki, and soliciting for participation in the project. This is not uncharacteristic of common ENTP behavior.
Funny, I didn't think of that myself! =)
- In your video you mention introversion in relation to violation of personal space. I can assure you that I take my personal space incredibly seriously, and this is a trait commonly strong in NTs who value their autonomy as a part of their self-respect. It then sent you on lines of thought of possibilities and what you clean learn from the situation.
Thanks so much for your encouragement with relation to this! As Mango so astutely points out in his video on reality tv,
http://www.youtube.com/user/BananaMango99#p/a/u/0/pv6YpBtJb9w
there seems to be less and less room for the necessity for privacy in our ever encroaching Orwellian world of modernity. Clarke's somewhat eerie Childhood's End comes rather readily to mind...
But what is this preoccupation of his with Giant Space Babies? I just don't get it !
- You get so excited when you get to share these possibilities and how they relate – your optimistic about this journey, and you seem fine with holding a number of possibilities at the same time.
Yes ! I wish I had known! (the ENTP correlation)
- You experience your own talking as an audience member, your natural about it – which is commonly said as “thinking out-loud” but your style is ENTP-ish. I’d expect this out of an INTP after they became very comfortable with the audience they were talking to, and it’d be all thought out, and the collaboration would probably be less emphasized – they tend to do less info hunting, but definitely do it and need to do it as well.
Yes - I think out loud often and often to my detriment LOL. But that is correct, I tend to generate ideas on the fly as I think and speak at the same time. And yes, I tend to listen to myself (which sounds funny - sometimes I have to talk to myself like some nutty professor when I am all alone and have had an eureka! - well! who else is there to listen??! *grin*) and then analyze what I just said or jump and branch off from what I said as new thoughts occur. I would say that the latter is the more natural and fluid for me and that the analysis comes when I tend to get stuck, which is why I probably hesitate and begin to drawl on, repeating myself seemingly needlessly while I attempt to find a new logical branch in lieu of the intuitively inspired one...
- The INTP does enjoy stability, so does the ENTP – I mean it’s nice, but we cause chaos – and then stabilizing it, but INTPs keep it stable…that chaos in your mornings, you sure that’s not how you get lost in so many ideas, get hooked on a project and fly with it, and then drop it and move onto another, and it’s always a tornado? How many simultaneous projects you got, anyway? I always have quite a few.
I had no idea that ENTPs enjoyed/required stability too - and perhaps I am simply biased by a particular lack of consistency of it on my part in that I am continually looking for the open space upon which to start laying track... Projects: yes, these are certainly a problem! Although I can't give them up for the life of me! I have several, all tangentially related in the evolutionary progress of my rather modular conceptualization of the world and the very laterally portable theories which I encountered to date. They range from inquiries into AI, (if I only had more time and structure! I could do so much! and contribute new things!!!!), Music Theory, Theories of cognition, Descartesian reanalysis of Hobbesian social contract theory in light of current social issues and in contradistinction to the Hegelian polarities - and these are simply areas of current research - projects currently entail teaching guitar, delineating the Segovian approach to compassing the neck respective to each of the modes in all twelve keys (upon which is predicated the idea that such vertical knowledge of the neck of the instrument is sufficient to mastery of the instrument and relatively inclusive of static-position scalar formations as well), re-opening the old web programming consulting company, overcoming my physical illness, properly installing W7 x64 on the other machine so I can get ProTools to run and begin composing stuff to send in for potential film-scoring gigs, and the little things, as well as tabled projects (due to shear time limitations) such as novel writing, etc. And yes, there is the intp-to-entp project =) lol.
- Your desire to improve your external relationships, to stabilize things, that you created ‘subsystems’ to supplement yourself and that you learned this lets you optimize your creative time and lets them not pile up, and gives you a clarity that gives you whole new vision – yah, dude – so I use Personal Brain, MindMaps – I’ve studied PRINCE2, Agile, GTD, and synthesized the best ideas from them all… a girlfriend used to joke that I was becoming a machine but it’s impossible because I’m too spontaneous…but it worked out because none of my things have due dates, things slide forward – I just need clarity and I can roll with it. Don’t know of any INTPs that do as much of this – see, they tend to be quite good at having a really big interest and going further and further with it – whereas we ENTPs tend to juggle many ideas and far easier launch into other possibilities from roads we’re on – ending up different places altogether.
Hmmm... I have never heard of these beyond MindMaps - I'll have to take a peak - although I get frustrated with research at times because I begin to notice an actual paucity of new ideas, and instead creative marketing of some old, already assimilated conceptual model or paradigm - or a merely incrementally adaptation to an old idea - which while at times may prove enlightening is often some old sludge of which uninspired non-generative thinking would normally conceive.
- How you really try and have people understand your perspective even when they are being non-productive (the inflammatory posts at the start)...
Thank you
- Your intimidation of being social, or not knowing how to deal with stupid people or other things – that’s not type related – so you could still be ENTP…. If you it intimidates you because you will run out of energy, it’s too distracting from your core projects, you don’t have much a drive to interact but feel it’d be healthy (not that you feel anxious about it, but not driven to is a different matter, that is introverted like) – then maybe INTP.
Yes. And I believe I relate more with your former perspective in that it is more a sense of diffusion than ennui that ensues at breakdown. Although, per my earlier reference, I believe that such breakdown does occur if only rarely or in the extremity of circumstances
- Your description of the being young, reading lots of book (extraverted perception), asking lots of questions (extraverted perception), and letting yourself go and pondering over the meaning of all this (Ne+Ti), sounds very ENTP-like; more so than INTP-like. You also make a bunch of little projects?
Yes. and Yes.
- Optimize the best type of groceries: so here’s what I got recently, maybe we can collaborate – if I eat breakfast bars put together with honey, supplements and juice smoothie in the morning I can go without milk which goes bad faster and requires more maintenance and I can order Tasty Bites from Amazon (got prime account already), and it’s about $5 a bag, and it takes 5 minutes to make, and in combinations with rice, and I’ve experimented with bread and such – and am now toying with ways of having yet more diversity with least complexity – well it’s all going well… I like the improvements so far; this is certainly not the first time I’ve optimized food, it’s just the latest time I got around back to that one – I optimize as much as I can.
It used to be along the constraints of budget - and quite often still is - however, it is always along the lines of concept, which perpetually shifts, so that whether I am planning some new cuisine for the week, a convenience oriented leveraging of readily available snacks, or a spartanly health conscious diet, it all devolves upon the concept d'jour (or week - but since my French is so limited I won't make the attempt lest I fall on my face publicly and disgrace Frenchmen - and women - everywhere - which may not be difficult to do but is hardly deserving of so magnanimous and creative and wonderfully beautiful a civilization!)
- Unlike the INTP with the inferior Fe, the ENTP is more aware of social dynamics but their Fe is subverted by the Ne+Ti, like when you are aware of how irrationality and subversion work together and how you are just automatically aware of these social models at play and what the impositions are as they are happening (Ti works automatically and smoothly as current perceptions move forward; the abstract foreseeing perceptions of extraverted intuition).
I would really appreciate a further explication here (*windbag* I am really laughing at myself and at Lyra's comment as I apply it with proud ingnominy to myself ! - hahahhaha! isn't it the truth of the matter though - we NeTi-s leap from leap to leap!! *grin*) about how subverting the Fe with the Ne+Ti happens and what the relationships are... I'm probably just not that well terminologically verse here and my Ti is feeling a bit weak as of late due to chemical/neurological damage of unknown origins (although I suspect some one on campus here is chemically addicted to something and using it nearby, which has unfortunately happened on several occasions before, and due to my extreme chemical sensitivity I seem to be the unfortunate casualty of such possibly well-intended temperate permissiveness on the part of the church - I am at what used to be a Nazarene bible college and is now a Nazarene church plus with apartment conversions - but this is a story for another time!)
[/QUOTE]
- Your emphasis on gathering and collecting information over pondering and processing the information you already have further suggests to me Ne is dominant.
Cool. What is the relationship to Ne here in contradistinction to other other related functions?
- Your sudden break from the original argument to share interesting information about Ocham’s Razor also suggests Ne is dominant.
Haha. I am wondering if Adymus will see this as "highly structered" argumentation lol - point taken - it actually makes sense, yet the focus was more to the point a dissection of all arguments and their bases.
Hmmmm.
- Interesting how you like to switch directions as new information becomes available, and not within the scope of one pursuit but in this multi-threaded way as pursuits relate to one another and make new things possible – in my discussions with another ENTP on entp.org, we were laughing at how we both change jobs every two years. It’s hilarious, but hey, there’s new things to learn out there.
I have never ever held a job longer than two years. I just can't do it man!
- Oh, this was the biggest one: “I am a programmer…to help me understand the world around me.” As a systems architect philosopher artist-minded rambler, I find even my INTJ mathematician friends kind of laugh when I say code is like dancing and like math is raw with the universe – and how everything is a system and by learning the mechanisms of systems we learn things about everything – I compared it somehow to dancing but I forget that metaphor now. I got into programming the fourth grade, and I think it’s why I have such a well-developed introverted thinking function, and like you, I like to apply it to everything else, be it even the arts (more so film for me). But what do you think Adymus? Doesn’t comprehending things as a way of revealing more about the depths of one’s experience and the interrelationships of the world when we face our psyche outward (the world around us) seem like Ti is working for Ne instead of the other way around? That’s what I’m seeing.
YESYESYES! I was at one point, characterizing the entire world and all of the information in it as 'languages.' Similar to dances I suppose, yet, what I was seeing was Math as language, Music as Language, Language as Language (duh), Programming as Language, etc etc ad infinitum ad naseum -
But the biggest telling difference between myself and computer nerds is my complete inability to follow written and verbal instruction. Sad to say, but this is the case. I attribute this to my prevalent Ne and my extreme relative debility with Sensing. It was then that I began to understand that my strength as a programmer was not in proficiency per se, but in abstract modeling and new idea generation. Programming was merely the media through which expressed my art hehe. Proficiency/efficiency-wise I otherwise am humbled by my competition
.
- The “I’ll bet it isn’t me” with a wink, like you knew what kind of logic twist your doing but confident as is, this is far more ENTP than INTP, especially just to toss in.
- The “I’ll bet it isn’t me” with a wink, like you knew what kind of logic twist your doing but confident as is, this is far more ENTP than INTP, especially just to toss in.
Ahem. LOL - yah well... yeah
(the intuitive grasping out there but not yet in Ti articulation? It's my Ne surety lol - oops - sorry Adymus - didn't mean to encroach by that..)
- His init reaction to the negative attitudes of some of this forum’s members was not characteristic of a Fe dom/aux – it was characteristic of an NTP – he didn’t really even take it personally
I agree on general principle with this statement, although I feel I still messed up. :/ Sorry. Yeah - but the general tenor is not dom Fe, and with that I concur with all my heart (*snicker*) ok that was bad! So I am not dom Fe, and I am glad.. and I cannot seem to think of anything witty to say here... ehm
- Adymus: Articulation skills? I think you mean the ‘flow’ and so on – ENTPs got that too, and I’m sure you know that, and we aren’t Fe dom/aux.
Albeit I have very little experience with this, however I would tend to agree based on some videos I watched on youtube (youtube youtube youtube) by some dude named Tom who self-labeled himself (redundant wasn't I) as an ENTP and went on in his videos with such brilliance and at quite a staggeringly fluid pace of it to boot! Quite impressive! If, in addition, you "take a gander" at Mr. Gabriel's Lunatic Vlog (yes yes - puts it out every full moon he does) you can see, albeit subdued a bit with age, how excited he gets and how fluid and cogently connected are his musings - if musings indeed - it is all perspective there I believe =)
- Ni asks itself “What does this mean? Not the parts, but beyond the parts; if I look at this from enough sides and perspectives I’ll gain clarity on it and know it beyond the image.” Ne asks “What else is out there? Not people and things, but those too and I know what my eyes see, what is beyond what I see? How does this unfold, and how does this inter-relate and where does this go and what else is possible and how else can the story be told?” What I see here is Ne, and not Ni.
I still am confusticated by this whole Ni premise/function/concept. The best that I can make of it is that it is a sort of intuition - not unlike my father's - in which over a protracted period of time things apparently begin to line up. Now not that that has never happened. To anyone who has had an eureka experience, certainly this seems to be a familiar scenario - but alternately from the big picture scenario it would begin to make sense to me except that I don't believe that a big-picture scenario is expressly defined by or constrained by such forms of rumination...? I am really unclear as to the workings of this concept.
In regards to Lyra’s posts
- I realized in reading “thanks to Lyra,…” that Lyra posted here too. No comment, that’s the only user I have on my ignore list, so whatever that was – I’m sure it was useless anyway…
Now now...
She may not in fact be the captain of your heart, however, I hold her in very high esteem at present and until such time as such opinions may (if indeed they are) be dislodged - which I find dubious on my own part; nevertheless, it should be known that it was Lyra who first stepped in - quite chivalrously, may I add - and defended this thread-posting - not just on my behalf (being that she scarcely knew who I was, having just arrived here) - but on the general civilized principle of rational discussion and openness. I laud her ferventy in reciprocation for her deed and owe, just as much as to principle as to her person, a like and equable defense on her behalf =).
So please don't be angry with me but I will support Lyra as she was so kind as to be supportive of me when I first got here just a few days ago. Cool ?
P.S. I ended up buying “The Society of Mind” by Marvin Minsky.
P.S.S. the Title is for the lulz.
P.S.S.S. This is where optimism leads: success! Congratulations, you’re ENTP. Or so it seems from over here. Now harness yourself (quick tip: Ti is the way), and you’ll be quite an awesome master of the force indeed.
You are perhaps the only other person besides myself to use PS, PSS, PSSS lol - I'm not sure what this means but it is most certainly informative as to general demeanor and potentially Enitsh... being that Ents are quite long-winded that is
Hehehe! Nice to meet you ! =) Rock On!
