The Illuminati is Good

[Paradroid]

Many people still think that the Illuminati is some kind of an evil force threatening/ruling the whole planet.

But most of these people have never read the official Illuminati webpage.
Here:
http://www.armageddonconspiracy.co.uk/

I encourage you all to read that.

In short the webpage tells that the Illuminati is a benevolent secret society,which is trying to create a New World Order,which will be based onto meritocracy.

The bad guys are the Old World Order (OWO).
The OWO are a group of super rich dynastic families who have ruled humanity since the dawn of time,and they still do.
The conspiracy theorists have made people believe that the elite is planning to create a "new world order",which would then enslave us all.
But the elite has already enslaved us all,so they have no need for a "New World Order".
This "fear the NWO" thing is disinformation.
A "new world order" is the last thing the elite wants.
And all those "NWO speeches" made by various politicians are disinformation too.

Here is what the Illuminati say about the OWO:
http://www.armageddonconspiracy.co.uk/The-Old-World-Order(1025563).htm

And here they explain this NWO vs OWO thing:
http://www.armageddonconspiracy.co.uk/For-us-or-against-us(1053285).htm

Read those two links given above at least,and make up your own minds.

 

[Claverhouse]

As a Section-Leader...

A major contribution to the study of 19th-century literature was made Monday with the handing-in of "Silas Marner: Paper #1" by Lori Durst, a freshman at the University of Connecticut.

According to leading experts on Silas Marner, George Eliot's 1861 fable of cruelty and redemption in the rural English countryside, Durst's three-page work contains a revolutionary insight into a key piece of symbolism in the novel which had previously escaped scholars.

"It's a staggering observation, one that's certain to alter the way we approach this text forever," said Harold Bloom, Yale professor and author of The Western Canon. "On page two, Durst makes a connection between the golden hair of the child left on Marner's doorstep and the misplaced heap of gold coins with which he is obsessed. While it may take decades for the full significance of this 'chromatic objective correlative' to ripple through academia, in my mind it has already opened the door to a rich, fertile, and heretofore virgin soil of Eliotian structural analysis."

"Yeah, the girl's hair is gold, and then [Silas Marner] is also looking for his missing gold," Durst said. "So in my paper I said how that was symbolic of something."

"Stunning," is how Jay Kushner, 23, a teacher's assistant in "English 140: 19th Century British Fiction," described his pupil's double-spaced manifesto. "As a section leader, I am lucky enough to read dozens of breathtakingly insightful two- to three-page papers from undergraduates each week. But even in the rarefied world of first-year papers, Lori's towers above the rest."




The Onion 1997 http://www.theonion.com/articles/freshman-term-paper-discovers-something-totally-ne,1657/










Claverhouse

 

[Cavallier]

Harold Bloom.

That's all that needs to be said.

Harold Bloom.

 

[trisomination]

Thanks for the info, haven't known they have their own website. That`s like admitting you exist while being a secret society
Anyway, don`t you find it really hard to believe something? I mean, maybe Illuminati are good and the OWO is just brainwashing all of us, but maybe and just maybe the Illuminati is brainwashing us and the OWO, if it exists, is telling the truth.
I don`t think you can know for sure, ever.
This is making me wonder, are my thoughts really mine?

 

[IssphitiKOzS]

Left wing or right wing, place your votes.

 

[Cognisant]

There's no OWO, just big business and stupidity.

The system is flawed and as time passes the damage caused by these flaws will only accumulate until the system itself is no longer sustainable, then it collapses and a new system is introduced, with new flaws of course.

In all likelihood it's not going to happen in our lifetime, unfortunately.

 

[Paradroid]

There's no OWO, just big business and stupidity.

The system is flawed and as time passes the damage caused by these flaws will only accumulate until the system itself is no longer sustainable, then it collapses and a new system is introduced, with new flaws of course.

In all likelihood it's not going to happen in our lifetime, unfortunately.

Most people think just like that:
"the system goes as it goes,we can't do anything to alter things as they are now,and when the current system collapses,then comes the new system."
and:
"the change won't happen in our lifetime"


That way of thinking gives all executive power to the elite in the top.
Throughout history people have always thought like that.
This is why the elite has always been in charge of things.
And even when bigger changes happen,it is always orchestrated by the elite,because people do not believe in their own power,and when they do not believe in it,they don't demand it.
The people simply sheepishly accept everthing that some guy in the top says.
"Left wing or right wing,cast your votes please"
Democratic plutocracy.

Take a look at dictatorships in history:
They were all full of passive and sheepish people.
Our present leaders are in power because people are so passive.
Look at the USA 2004 elections:
Two guys,Bush and Kerry,both are members of the Skull&Bones,there is you "choice".
And still americans just accept this,and they go to vote.
Yes,"in all likehood the change is not going to happen in our lifetime",as you said OreSama.
People like those americans who voted in the 2004 elections cannot change anything,ever.


The Illuminati is trying to make people active.
That is why they have founded "The Movement".
Anyone can join.
The Movements purpose is to overthrow the OWO.
And after that the New World Order can be created.
In the AramageddonConspiracy site they explain the Movement in more detail.

 

[JUN]

Ah well, just those three words together make me laugh:

New
+
World
+
Order
=

 

[420MuNkEy]

Any world order is nothing but a bad idea.

 

[Jah]

Read "Illuminatus!" by Wilson and Shea ?
YouTube- Robert Anton Wilson on Alex Jones and the NWO

 

[CoryJames]

I don't buy this big conspiracy BS. On either side. The people who have the money have the power, because money is what makes the world turn, like it or not. I don't think that the people pulling the strings are some hugely rich families that have existed since the dawn of time, but I don't deny that there are strings. Huge corporations pull the strings. They pay for political campaigns, so when people are in power they have the ability to demand things, or they will pull funding. It is all about the next quarters profit margin.

There is no conspiracy. The people with the money control everything, especially the media, which controls the mindless masses.

 

[CoryJames]

And as much as I hate conspiracies, I encourage all of you to watch Zeitgeist and Zeitgeist Addendum. I urge you to read between the conspiracy theorist lines and see the truths and problems that they cite that actually do exist, and formulate your own ideas based on them.

 

[Paradroid]

I don't buy this big conspiracy BS. On either side. The people who have the money have the power, because money is what makes the world turn, like it or not. I don't think that the people pulling the strings are some hugely rich families that have existed since the dawn of time, but I don't deny that there are strings. Huge corporations pull the strings. They pay for political campaigns, so when people are in power they have the ability to demand things, or they will pull funding. It is all about the next quarters profit margin.

There is no conspiracy. The people with the money control everything, especially the media, which controls the mindless masses.

You say that you don't buy into conspiracies.
But right after saying that,you say that those who have the money run the world.
And that is the conspiracy.

Think about this:
How do you get rich?

You don't get rich,you born rich.
There are a few exceptions,but this is the main rule.
And when rich people die,where does all the money go?
It goes to their relatives.
The relatives who inherited the money then use it to create even more money.
And their sons & daughters then inherit it all.
So the money stays in the family.
This is how all the big "power families" have been created.
These families have then formed an alliance since they have a common enemy,the people.
These family dynasties are the Old World Order,the power elite.

As you said,"money is what makes the world turn".
Or more correctly,"people who have the money make the world turn".
This small group can command the whole world through money.
They have created the debt system.
Debt enslaves people and countries alike.
Have a look at Greece right now.
They lost the "economic growth" game,so now IMF virtually owns the whole country.
And who created IMF?
A group of rich people,from rich families.

That is the conspiracy.

 

[CoryJames]

The fact that money runs things isn't a conspiracy, its a fact of life. And when you say shit like "Old World Order" or post us a link to a site that claims that the current environmental crisis was caused by the theft of several religious artifacts by 30 elite special force units, or say that rich people think common people are the enemy, it just makes you sound ridiculous.


Some people work hard, have good ideas, catch some lucky breaks, and become rich. And then they have some more good ideas, catch some more breaks, and become more rich. They were in the right place at the right time. Being rich is nice. So they protect their wealth, use it to secure more wealth, get what they want, and have an even nicer lifestyle, just like anyone else in their position would. There is no CONSPIRACY, just facts of life. Rich people like being rich, and when they die their family inherits their wealth, and they are rich too. That doesn't make them evil, or involve them in a conspiracy to "kill god" like that website you posted suggests.

I am far from rich. My dad was a prison guard in Boston from when he was 17, even though he worked his ass off and graduated sixth in his class and as a trivarsity tricaptain. He didn't catch a break, his family refused to help him pay for college or even sign the necessary forms. My mom is a medical technologist in a hospital. They work hard and make their way in the world, and just because they aren't super rich they don't complain and blame a conspiracy against them.

I know people who are super rich. I went to school with a girl who got an island, airstrip, and private jet for her 16th birthday. I went to school with the kid who is going to inherit staples and half of some other company I forgot. I went to school with a girl who was driven from her dorm to each class in a limo, and who had a bodyguard sleep on the floor next to her bed in a sleeping bag. I went to school with a prince of an African country who couldn't finish his basketball season because he needed to go run his country. Some of these kids were assholes about their wealth. Other ones were very polite about it, to the point where you wouldn't have even guessed they were rich. None of them were involved in a conspiracy to control the world.

Rich people have power, yea. Some of them are greedy, yea. This isn't a conspiracy, its a fact of life. There is probably going to be a few kids who are on this forum who are going to use their intelligence and coldness to make a ton of money, and they are going to be in a position to make decisions that will affect other peoples lives. Not a conspiracy, just the way things go.

 

[420MuNkEy]

A quick comment on the (excellent) post above:
It's not so much that rich people view the poor as the enemy so much as they just have a general disregard for their consumers, so long as they keep consuming. This can lead to companies making choices that aren't in the customers best interest (to maximize profits) so long as it doesn't have a major impact on their customer base.

 

[shadowdrums4]

This rich verus poor bull is what political parties feed on. "Obama has raised taxes on the rich but cut them on the working middle class" I hate to tell you it's not possible. When the "rich" coorperations have money, do you know what they do with it? They expand their buisness and hire more people. When you raise taxes on them, they don't have the money. You know what the "rich" do with their money? (in most cases) They go start new buisnesses, which hire more people so that more people can have money. This class war crap is ridiculous. "A new world where those with money don't rule things" it just isn't possible. You know that's the basis of comunism right? No money, everyone just does their work and gets what they need. Do you know why it doesn't work? People are lazy. If you're getting the same thing regardless of output, why do more then the bare minimum?

The money system might not be perfect, but it causes competition and fuels ideas to make society better. I'm sorry but that's just how it is. I've thought of three or four inventions of my own. I may actually go through with it with a friend of mine who understands how to put it into action. Would I do this if not for the benifit of money? Probably not. I'm not greedy but you have to do what puts food on the table you know?

Just throwing out there how funny it is for a secret society to be on the internet. (I believe that was pointed out.)

Sorry but this illuminati just sounds like a new political party feeding on the ignorant.

 

[420MuNkEy]

"A new world where those with money don't rule things" it just isn't possible. You know that's the basis of comunism right? No money, everyone just does their work and gets what they need. Do you know why it doesn't work? People are lazy. If you're getting the same thing regardless of output, why do more then the bare minimum?

World? Not any time in the foreseeable future, but consider the internet. It's mostly communistic in nature. Sure, there are major corporations (like google), but for the most part, everyone is on the same level. Examples like Wikipedia show that people will do more than the bare minimum without monetary incentive. By making a post on a forum, sharing a video on youtube, posting a comment on a website, or interacting with just about anything in any way, you are contributing to the internet. You don't do this because you have to, you do this because you want to. This is the only way (as far as I know) a communist system can work.

 

[CoryJames]

It is important to understand that monetary incentive doesn't only spark positive innovation or a work ethic. The monetary system, by design, is a bit like a game of musical chairs, and it sucks to be the person left out when the music stops. Unfortunately, despite its inevitable unsustainable nature, it works best, and I would rather be in a system where I get out what I put in (minus the tax of course), as opposed to busting my ass next to a guy taking a nap, and both getting a bowl of soup and a crust of bread and a bed to sleep on that night.

 

[420MuNkEy]

It is important to understand that monetary incentive doesn't only spark positive innovation or a work ethic. The monetary system, by design, is a bit like a game of musical chairs, and it sucks to be the person left out when the music stops. Unfortunately, despite its inevitable unsustainable nature, it works best, and I would rather be in a system where I get out what I put in (minus the tax of course), as opposed to busting my ass next to a guy taking a nap, and both getting a bowl of soup and a crust of bread and a bed to sleep on that night.

Sorry for thread-jacking but...

In an actual functioning communist system, people wouldn't being doing tasks they were disinterested in, meaning you wouldn't have a guy next to you taking a nap. For all you know, he would rather be working hard in a field where you'd be bored out of your mind.

Sure, there are freeloaders, but there are also thieves. It's the mentality of "I deserve more than you because I judge myself to be better than you" that inhibits communism as a viable possibility. I say this because, in the working example of communism I mentioned earlier (the internet), you don't see the individuals that don't contribute, so it's easy to put them out of your mind. I have nearly twice as many posts as you (at time of posting), does that mean if INTP Forum were a nation, I should be entitled to twice as much stuff (intentionally vague as it is hypothetical) as you? If it did, one would likely try to maximize their own post count while the value (length, relevance, etc) of each post would plummet. As a result, inflation would occur and it would take much more posts to get the same amount of stuff. So the amount of stuff you get stays the same while the number of posts you need to get it skyrockets and the quality of your posts drops significantly.

Also, it's been shown that creativity and intrinsic interest diminish if task is done for gain.


Yes, I realize it might sound a little idealistic, but my point is it does work under certain conditions, it's just hard to know exactly what those are.

 

[CoryJames]

If you would like to see an idea of a working communist system I suggest watching zeitgeist addendum. I understand that under ideal circumstances, communism could work. But that could be said of almost any societal structure. And unfortunately, if everyone got to do the thing they were interested in, a lot of jobs wouldn't get done. Because let's be serious; how many people are interested in working as a garbage man, and how many are interested in being actors. Then look at it this way. How many garbage men does a society need, and how many actors do they need? How many people would be content to work on a farm and do hard labor for 12 hours a day while others worked in an air conditioned office? Human nature prevents communism from working.

 

[420MuNkEy]

If you would like to see an idea of a working communist system I suggest watching zeitgeist addendum.

I have.

I understand that under ideal circumstances, communism could work. But that could be said of almost any societal structure. And unfortunately, if everyone got to do the thing they were interested in, a lot of jobs wouldn't get done. Because let's be serious; how many people are interested in working as a garbage man, and how many are interested in being actors. Then look at it this way. How many garbage men does a society need, and how many actors do they need? How many people would be content to work on a farm and do hard labor for 12 hours a day while others worked in an air conditioned office? Human nature prevents communism from working.

True, a lot of jobs exist that would likely stop being done if it weren't for the monetary gain... but that's not necessarily a bad thing. This would obviously create many immediate problems if converting from a current 'modern' society, but a communistic society would be different in many ways from how it currently is. Humans are relentlessly creative and very capable of problem solving, but less effort is spent on things that aren't perceived as problems (for example, a better way of dealing with garbage). I haven't really talked to any garbage men, so I'm not too sure how they feel about their jobs. I assume it would be unpleasant, but maybe most of them are just a subsection of society that enjoys collecting what people throw away.

Quite a few people (from the relatively small group of people I have talked to about this) would rather do hard work outside than be 'cooped up'. Also, when you start to look at the world of modern agriculture, it's pretty grim anyway (copyrighted seeds, relatively low pay, etc).

I doubt many people truly want to be actors. What they lust for is the wealth and celebrity status associated with that career path. Only the people who are truly great actors or those that are extremely passionate about it would likely pursuit this. Also, art projects (ie, movies, television series, etc) would be much different than they are now. I imagine they would be made by people (actors, prop/set people, visual effects artists, etc) jumping on board with a project rather than having a movie studio exec okaying what will sell.

But regardless of all this, I agree that there communism doesn't work (or rather, hasn't yet worked) in a physical society. But it's not 'Human nature' that's preventing it from working, as it does work virtual worlds inhabited by humans.

 

[CoryJames]

Trust me, if there was a way that society could change for the better, I would be on board. I don't believe that people who sit behind a huge desk and tell other people what to do deserve more than the guys sweating it out and making life livable for most of us. In fact they probably deserve less. I am just going off of what history has shown us.

A free market society is inevitable. Human beings are naturally innovative, searching for ways to manipulate their surroundings to benefit them, not simply existing peacefully within it. That is why we hold the station we do on this planet. Communist systems have never taken root anywhere besides impoverishes countries where being told what to do by someone else and getting the basic necessities provided in return for cooperation is better than the alternative. And in most, if not all of these scenarios, the communist ideal was instituted by someone with a serious god complex, who was perfectly happy with everyone being equal, as long as he didn't have to be. Think Mao Tse Dong, or Fidel Castro.


Communism simply doesn't work, and I doubt it ever will.

 

[yaleha]

Conspiracy or no conspiracy, the truth lies in between. Even if you assume that everything is disinformation then you can still find the truth, based on what is being said or not said. People also have a funny habit of saying the real Truth, when they are least aware of it.

Money doesn't turn the world and it doesn't matter all that much. Money does NOT drive progress, in fact it slows it down(If you need examples let me know), it doesn't buy you love or friendship or happyness or anything that actually matters. The real progress, the real innovation be in in arts, or sciences or sports comes not from greed but from passion. As soon as one sells out he looses that edge that made him special.

I believe this is just phase in our evolution. The world is going to change.

 

[CoryJames]

Conspiracy or no conspiracy, the truth lies in between. Even if you assume that everything is disinformation then you can still find the truth, based on what is being said or not said. People also have a funny habit of saying the real Truth, when they are least aware of it.

Money doesn't turn the world and it doesn't matter all that much. Money does NOT drive progress, in fact it slows it down(If you need examples let me know), it doesn't buy you love or friendship or happyness or anything that actually matters. The real progress, the real innovation be in in arts, or sciences or sports comes from greed but from passion. As soon as one sells out he looses that edge that made him special.

I believe this is just phase in our evolution. The world is going to change.

If you want to make a convincing argument, check your spelling before you post.

Also, when you make a claim, try to back it up, (you know, give examples, or explain the reasoning you used, whatever), or if you don't say it is my opinion that so you clarify that you understand that what you are saying isn't the truth just because it's a personal belief.


In response to your claim, no.

Let me explain. Money is the only thing that makes the world turn. Love, happiness, friendship, all the things money can't buy (except that it usually can); those things don't matter in the grand scheme of things, except on a personal, individual level. As much as that sucks, it just pretty much is that way, if you need further explanation, I suggest you read Zola's Germinal.

Money gives power. It shouldn't, but it does. It is the new Universal Solvent. Everything dissolves before money, because we all need it to, well, get what we need. Loyalty, opinion, results, evidence (false or real). These things can be bought, or bribed, or blackmailed.

Say you have a family, but you lost your job, and have no money saved because you just bought a house and need to pay your mortgage to keep your roof over your head. (Not a crazy thought, eh?) I have money. I have money because I own an oil drilling company. My company drills oil in Alaska and kills all the cute seals and polar bears and penguins and whatnot. The pipeline I am building is destroying the scenic beauty our country once knew. The burning of this oil pollutes the Earth and is causing global warming. I offer you a job working behind a desk in Chicago. You aren't drilling the oil. You've never even seen the oil. But by taking my job offer you are pretty much supporting everything I stand for, and your paycheck will have my oil all over it (metaphorically, of course.)

Ideally, since you seem to be an idealist, you would take the job working for the research on solar power. Except they have no money, because solar power isn't really efficient enough to make much profit, (yet), therefore they do not have the money to offer you a job.

Are you going to take the job with the oil company, the only job available right now in this market, so you can feed your family and keep a roof over your head? Or are you going to starve them, make them homeless, and placate them by reminding them that your "happiness" can't be bought.

You tell me if money doesn't make the world turn.

 

[Anthile]

Conspiracy or no conspiracy, the truth lies in between. Even if you assume that everything is disinformation then you can still find the truth, based on what is being said or not said. People also have a funny habit of saying the real Truth, when they are least aware of it.

Money doesn't turn the world and it doesn't matter all that much. Money does NOT drive progress, in fact it slows it down(If you need examples let me know), it doesn't buy you love or friendship or happyness or anything that actually matters. The real progress, the real innovation be in in arts, or sciences or sports comes not from greed but from passion. As soon as one sells out he looses that edge that made him special.

I believe this is just phase in our evolution. The world is going to change.

Dude, do you have really no idea how expensive science is and how commercialized sports and arts are?

 

[yaleha]

that is why its being slowed down on purpose to drain as much money as possible.
If money was of no importance then inovation would truly thrive.

 

[Paradroid]

The fact that money runs things isn't a conspiracy, its a fact of life. And when you say shit like "Old World Order" or post us a link to a site that claims that the current environmental crisis was caused by the theft of several religious artifacts by 30 elite special force units, or say that rich people think common people are the enemy, it just makes you sound ridiculous.


Some people work hard, have good ideas, catch some lucky breaks, and become rich. And then they have some more good ideas, catch some more breaks, and become more rich. They were in the right place at the right time. Being rich is nice. So they protect their wealth, use it to secure more wealth, get what they want, and have an even nicer lifestyle, just like anyone else in their position would. There is no CONSPIRACY, just facts of life. Rich people like being rich, and when they die their family inherits their wealth, and they are rich too. That doesn't make them evil, or involve them in a conspiracy to "kill god" like that website you posted suggests.

I am far from rich. My dad was a prison guard in Boston from when he was 17, even though he worked his ass off and graduated sixth in his class and as a trivarsity tricaptain. He didn't catch a break, his family refused to help him pay for college or even sign the necessary forms. My mom is a medical technologist in a hospital. They work hard and make their way in the world, and just because they aren't super rich they don't complain and blame a conspiracy against them.

I know people who are super rich. I went to school with a girl who got an island, airstrip, and private jet for her 16th birthday. I went to school with the kid who is going to inherit staples and half of some other company I forgot. I went to school with a girl who was driven from her dorm to each class in a limo, and who had a bodyguard sleep on the floor next to her bed in a sleeping bag. I went to school with a prince of an African country who couldn't finish his basketball season because he needed to go run his country. Some of these kids were assholes about their wealth. Other ones were very polite about it, to the point where you wouldn't have even guessed they were rich. None of them were involved in a conspiracy to control the world.

Rich people have power, yea. Some of them are greedy, yea. This isn't a conspiracy, its a fact of life. There is probably going to be a few kids who are on this forum who are going to use their intelligence and coldness to make a ton of money, and they are going to be in a position to make decisions that will affect other peoples lives. Not a conspiracy, just the way things go.

The ArmgeddonConspiracy-site doesn't claim that "environmental crisis was caused by the theft of several religious artifacts".
Those claims are advertisements for a coded novel called "Armageddon Conspiracy".
This novel and 3 others can be freely downloaded from the "Downloads" section of the site.
And if you decide to read through the site,you shall also know the real meaning of the term "Kill the God".

In the quote above you again say that there is "no conspiracy".
Yet again right after saying that,you describe how the conspiracy works.

You say that you are far from wealthy even if your parents work hard and I guess that you work hard as well.
And then you describe how you have met many people who got wealthy simply by inheriting it all from their parents.

You can of course call that "the way things go".
Most people do that.
They see the system as normal,and they accept it.
But I call that a conspiracy.

The Old World Order means a group of super rich families who are the masters of this world.
Their goal is simply to stay in power forever.
In fact they have been in power since the dawn of time.
All empires in history were led by powerful families,the crown and the wealth have always stayed inside these families.
The term "money makes the world go around" actually means "families who own all the money make the world go around".

Yes,that's "the way it goes".
If you are content with the present system,then you are supporting the Old World Order.
Nothing needs to change then,right?

I'm not content with present system,that's why I call it "a conspiracy".
I want a New World Order.
Meritocracy is an experimental concept;it has not been tried out before.
But I think it's time to try it,then we will know if it works.

 

[yaleha]

@Cory
Which parts would you like me to explain? I'll try my best. If you think money can buy you love or friendships then you haven't experienced it yet.
Don't you want the world to be a better place? Are you willing to do anything about it? Or are you too afraid to leave you comfort zone? "All that is needed for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing"

 

[CoryJames]

Paradroid.

There is no conspiracy. There is just the unfortunate, but completely understandable way things work. You talk about meritocracy. When you EARN your money, you earn the right to do what you want with it. And if you have a family that you love, when you die, you want to make their lives easier so you give them your money. Inheritance isn't a fucking conspiracy. To deny someone the right to give their money and possessions to whomever they so choose would be unconstitutional.

In your "meritocracy" can there be no gift giving? If someone earns, through their merit and contributions to the community, enough money to buy their wife a car can the wife not have it because she herself hasn't "earned" it? Can the man not have the pleasure of giving the gift? This idea continues through death. When I die, I would like the comfort of knowing that my hard work will have made the lives of my family easier.

@ yaleha
I do not believe that the way things are is good or right. I am, however, a realist. I do believe that money can buy pleasure and happiness. I don't believe that ONLY money can produce these things, but I do believe that it makes it easier. I also believe that, while not perfect, the system we live in has merit. Society does what it can for the poor or unfortunate, through welfare and the like. I will not say that every child in the country has an equal opportunity to succeed, but every child does have AN opportunity, and certainly sitting on a forum and bitching about how unfair things are is not making the most of it, nor will it change anything.

 

[yaleha]

you choose the easy path

 

[CoryJames]

No, I choose the only viable path.

 

[yaleha]

I used to be just like you))

 

[CoryJames]

I'm going to have to go with no, you weren't. Nor will you ever be.

 

[CoryJames]

Because when someone challenges my beliefs with questions, I answer them, or I change my beliefs. You take the easy path by not answering anything I posed to you and just saying I am weak.

 

[yaleha]

I didn't challenge your beliefs, where you trying to challenge mine? In my first post I said that if you have any questions just ask. All your replies seem very defensive, why?

 

[420MuNkEy]

Ones personal belief is not something to be respected when speaking in terms of objective truths.

 

[Paradroid]

CoryJames wrote:
####
There is no conspiracy. There is just the unfortunate, but completely understandable way things work. You talk about meritocracy. When you EARN your money, you earn the right to do what you want with it. And if you have a family that you love, when you die, you want to make their lives easier so you give them your money. Inheritance isn't a fucking conspiracy. To deny someone the right to give their money and possessions to whomever they so choose would be unconstitutional.

In your "meritocracy" can there be no gift giving? If someone earns, through their merit and contributions to the community, enough money to buy their wife a car can the wife not have it because she herself hasn't "earned" it? Can the man not have the pleasure of giving the gift? This idea continues through death. When I die, I would like the comfort of knowing that my hard work will have made the lives of my family easier.
####

Meritocracy comes with a 100% inheritance tax.
Many people don't seem to like this idea.
They are used to the "family first" way of thinking.
Family first sounds like a good concept at first.
But all the money you inherit to your family is away from everyone else.
Think about the billions of dollars&euros inherited by members of the superrich families.
All that money is away from the rest of us.
The people who got these million dollar "gifts" didn't earn it.
You told us before how someone you knew got an island, airstrip, and a private jet for her 16th birthday.
What did the person in question do to receive such gifts?


Imagine two kids.The other one inherits ten million dollars from his parents,and the other one inherits nothing.Which one has the better chance "to be someone" in life?
Which one has a better chance to become a president for example?
Or a multimillion business leader?
And which one of two kids is more likely to become "a sucker" or "a nobody"?
And when those kids then grow old and die,then all their earnings and possessions in life go to their children.
The children of the rich kid get even more than that original 10 million,while the children of the poor kid get almost nothing.
And so it goes on.
In this example all the money stays inside one family.
And the world is full of such families.
Those few rich families own most of the worlds money.
And all that money is away from the rest of us.


People today are afraid of the state.
They are used to think that the state is a monster,who wants to rob you.
And they are correct.
The state is a monster in our present system.
That is the main reason people are scared of the 100% inheritance tax.


But in meritocracy the role of the state will be different.
Tax money will be used to benefit all citizens.
It won't go to the capitalistic monopoly game anymore.
Nor will the money stay inside those family dynasties.
The main reason for the 100% inheritance tax is this:
To pull the money out from the superrich families,so that it can be used to the benefit of all.
This tax will also destroy those families for good.
In meritocracy all families will be "ordinary".
Everyone starts from the same line.

And gift giving will be permitted in meritocracy I guess,but you must draw the line somewhere.

 

[CoryJames]

Meritocracy comes with a 100% inheritance tax.
Many people don't seem to like this idea.
They are used to the "family first" way of thinking.
Family first sounds like a good concept at first.
But all the money you inherit to your family is away from everyone else.
Think about the billions of dollars&euros inherited by members of the superrich families.
All that money is away from the rest of us.
The people who got these million dollar "gifts" didn't earn it.
You told us before how someone you knew got an island, airstrip, and a private jet for her 16th birthday.
What did the person in question do to receive such gifts?


Imagine two kids.The other one inherits ten million dollars from his parents,and the other one inherits nothing.Which one has the better chance "to be someone" in life?
Which one has a better chance to become a president for example?
Or a multimillion business leader?
And which one of two kids is more likely to become "a sucker" or "a nobody"?
And when those kids then grow old and die,then all their earnings and possessions in life go to their children.
The children of the rich kid get even more than that original 10 million,while the children of the poor kid get almost nothing.
And so it goes on.
In this example all the money stays inside one family.
And the world is full of such families.
Those few rich families own most of the worlds money.
And all that money is away from the rest of us.


People today are afraid of the state.
They are used to think that the state is a monster,who wants to rob you.
And they are correct.
The state is a monster in our present system.
That is the main reason people are scared of the 100% inheritance tax.


But in meritocracy the role of the state will be different.
Tax money will be used to benefit all citizens.
It won't go to the capitalistic monopoly game anymore.
Nor will the money stay inside those family dynasties.
The main reason for the 100% inheritance tax is this:
To pull the money out from the superrich families,so that it can be used to the benefit of all.
This tax will also destroy those families for good.
In meritocracy all families will be "ordinary".
Everyone starts from the same line.

And gift giving will be permitted in meritocracy I guess,but you must draw the line somewhere.

1. You didn't even address the issue that who are you, or any other authority, to tell a someone what they get to do with their money when they die.

2. "All the money you inherit to your family is away from everyone else". You use your story about the two kids, and say what did the one from the rich family do to deserve the money. What did "everyone else" do to deserve the money? What did you do to deserve a birthday present? You were born on that day however many years before...

3. Meritocracy is based on the idea that everybody will be just as much of a somebody as they merit. IT STILL WORKS THAT WAY NOW. You assume that the kid who doesn't inherit ten million dollars can't be somebody in life. That sounds like a confidence issue on your own part. I have inherited nothing. I'm not going to. But I assure you I am going to be somebody. I already am on my way to that, earning myself an internship at a powerful investing company while I am still in highschool and every other intern is from an Ivy League College. I did that by being proactive and using my brain and working hard.

4. Tax money today doesn't go to the capitalistic monopoly game. It goes to things like welfare and the educational system. Which "benefit all the people", making sure that EVERYONE has a shot.

5. You whine about people unfair advantages. There will always be people who have advantages that others don't. Whats next on your list of things to "equalize"? Attractive people have advantages in every aspect, the job market, social life, everything. Do you plan on giving everyone plastic surgery to make them look the same? Maybe thats where the billions of dollars from the "evil" families should go. What about height, body type? Those tall guys have an unfair advantage to be better basketball players...uh oh, we should chop everyone to the same size. How about kids that get born with weaker immune systems...us healthy people have an unfair advantage to be healthy in life, we should irradiate everyone at birth so we can all be just as shit off in life.


6,7,8,9,10 etc etc What about gift giving? Your response was a cop out. What if somebody spends every cent they have before they die on material items? You going to take that away from their family too? What about houses? So when someone parents die the kids have nowhere to live and no money? What about things people make with their own two hands? Are you going to tell peoples' families that they can't have those things because they might sell them and be better off? What about stocks and bonds? They make our economy work. When someone dies without having cashed in after they pretty much donate to helping our society work based on trust of return are you going to say fuck it, too bad? You say you want to "destroy" those families. Don't you see something a little fucked up with that?

Yea, you want to press the restart button. But when you bust your ass, which I doubt you will because you sound like a person who just shifts blame and doesn't just DO for yourself, and you have your money, you aren't going to want to give it up and say yea, everything I worked for was for nothing.

The reason society innovates and works hard and doesn't just say fuck it and get drunk as hell and party and not care is because: 1. We work to have nice things and leisure. 2. We try hard to make the next generation better off than our own. That goes for your direct descendants too, even moreso. Without those incentives, society won't function.

I have three jobs. I do what I can so I can be happy and successful in life. Instead of bitching about the system and feeling bad for yourself, how about you BE SOMEONE.

You and everyone else who believes in this crap are just lazy. Anyone can make it in life, no matter where they come from, and if you don't believe that then go watch Rudy, damn. Just because someone else has it easier than you you choose to bitch and moan rather than working harder. Someone else doesn't have to work as hard as you to have what they want. Too damn bad. If you want to get pissy over that fact it just shows that you haven't grown up.

 

[CoryJames]

As to your "being defensive" comment. I'm not defensive, this stuff just gets me worked up. It is people like you who claim everything is a conspiracy and that things are against you and use it as an excuse for failure are the thing that drags society down. It's like the fat person who blames being fat on McDonald's for not putting healthier things in their food instead of just not eating there.

 

[yaleha]

Of course Cory wants to work for a "powerful investment company"(Goldman Sachs or the likes?), he looks up to those people, respects them and wants to be like them. He thinks its OK that 5-10% control 90% of the wealth because they've earned it, and poor people deserve to be poor and be exploited and enslaved.
Cory is young, he doesn't know shit, he hasn't seen shit but thinks he got all figured out. He is blinded by his arrogance, obviously he didn't even read my post and just responds with paragraphs of irrelevant text. He blindly assumes that we are some losers, who couldn't make it in life, so we just sit here and bitch about the system.
Cory, do yourself a favor, open up your mind and your heart.

 

[Abraxas]

The conspiracy behind the "family first" -way of thinking, is called evolution. If you know the meaning of the term Inclusive fitness, you know what I'm talking about here. It's very natural and has got nothing to do (at least directly) with Satan worshipping.

The claim that certain amount of families have been "ruling" the world for generations is possibly true, if we accept the evolution theory as a truth.

Basically, as living organisms, according to evolutionary biology and -psychology, our lives are all about the survival of the genes. So we survive(Natural selection) and reproduce(gene replication). And then we run into a problem: How to help those with whom we share genes survive and reproduce? Well, money gives a solution to both of these problems, right?! The offspring inherits the wealth and their parents will sleep well knowing their children will one day rampage the earth.

I'm not saying the OWO is actually sodomizing us economically, I'm just saying it's possible.

A solution? How to break free from the chains of oligarchy???

Meritocracy sounds very interesting. Especially the part where people are supposed to give their wealth to "everyone" instead of their kin. I don't think we're far enough in our evolution in order this unnatural behaviour to be actually possible.

Right now the basic principle is that there is no success with out competition. Everyone sets a priority in comparison to their genes:

1. The one most identical to your genes is you. So you come first.
2. Offspring, or the offspring of your siblings, parents, etc.
3. Then come non-kin people that can benefit #1 and #2.
4. The further the list goes on, the more genetic differences.
...

So basically, when interacting with people we are most likely to see the differences in them and by nature we fear that they might take some resources for their kind of genes, away from our kind of genes.
(Yes, there is X amount of resources and Y amount of consumers.)

Until we're able to be all Jesus-like and see only the similarities in other people. In other words, get completely rid of Xenophobia (which according to evolution is quite natural at the time) we're doomed to stay under the oppression of some sort of OWO.

But in the meantime I suggest that we kill at least 2/3 of the world population and start all over again. But let's be more creative this time and replace all religions with episodes of Teletubbies!!! Who's with me on this New World Order???

 

[Claverhouse]

Of course Cory wants to work for a "powerful investment company"(Goldman Sachs or the likes?), he looks up to those people, respects them and wants to be like them. He thinks its OK that 5-10% control 90% of the wealth because they've earned it, and poor people deserve to be poor and be exploited and enslaved.
Cory is young, he doesn't know shit, he hasn't seen shit but thinks he got all figured out. He is blinded by his arrogance, obviously he didn't even read my post and just responds with paragraphs of irrelevant text. He blindly assumes that we are some losers, who couldn't make it in life, so we just sit here and bitch about the system.
Cory, do yourself a favor, open up your mind and your heart.

Any next time you feel like making personal attacks, try to restrain yourself or face getting banned. In general, people can argue anything they want, and if rough language or harshness occurs in responses, people should just toughen up: this isn't a kindergarten. Yet that does not apply to malevolent direct attacks on other members, their experience or their intelligence: this also isn't a Marxist debating group.




Claverhouse


Moderating Mode

 

[CoryJames]

Paragraphs of irrelevant text? I took parts of your arguments and countered them, how are you going to say I didn't read your post? You on the other hand, didn't respond to anything in my post, and called me young, arrogant, and stupid. So your post seems pretty hypocritical to me.

And no, I don't want to work for an investment company. I want to be a corporate lawyer. I got invited to the national youth leadership forum on law and thought it was very stimulating.

 

[yaleha]

Nobody calling you stupid, I said that you haven't seen much yet and just don't know much. Open up your mind, try to learn as much as you can about everything and most importantly yourself.

 

[CoryJames]

Nobody calling you stupid, I said that you haven't seen much yet and just don't know much. Open up your mind, try to learn as much as you can about everything and most importantly yourself.

How would you know how much I have or have not seen. And I do have an open mind, and I always research both sides before I say things. I am not saying that there has never been a conspiracy, or that the way things are doesn't suck sometimes. It does. I got kicked out of my first school for things that I shouldn't have, and if I wasn't a kid on a hell of a big scholarship and my parents could have written a check to the school or donated a building, I wouldn't have been. And that school was a hell of a lot nicer and more competitive than my new one, and I wish I was still there.

All I am saying is that the way things are isn't a conspiracy, and it is a pretty fair and compassionate system. Some people will always be better off, just because you aren't doesn't mean you get to press the reset button on everything. It is childish to think that is an option.

 

[Paradroid]

Call it a "conspiracy" or "the way things go",the system is still there.
It's up to the individual to make a choice between supporting the system or resisting the system.

The "reset button" is a realistic option.
That reset can happen if enough people want to change the system.

That's the way things go.

 

[CoryJames]

Apparently not. Would it not have happened already? You believe that these superrich families have complete control, but claim that if people want to change things they can...

Have you ever considered that there is a reason the system is there, and it isn't to fuck you?

 

[yaleha]

How much have you seen, Cory? You don't have to answer me, I am not trying to offend you. In my first post I said, it doesn't matter if there is a conspiracy or not, its irrelevant.

Money itself is not a problem, it is the love for money.

 

[warryer]

I think if you really wanted to have a single order society one needs to begin by monopolizing energy which is at the heart of everythingpeople need or want. Water would be next best but, nearly impossible to control because after all it simply falls from the sky. After that I think it would be land which is what countries are.

I agree with yaleha about money. It doesn't actually do anything. It's the people who attach value to it that give money it's "power" like anything else. Money is an illusion.

 

[yaleha]

Or we could have very cheap if not free, clean, endless energy but that would spell doomsday for the current order.