The Grieving process and INTP

[giaduck]

So, today I found out that my dad has cancer and is likely to die in the next 12 months. For some reason, I don't feel very sad, or emotional at all. My sister says that I am like a robot sometimes, I can just turn off the water works. My husband thinks it's unnatural not to feel some stage of grief but perhaps the shock and denial is stopping me from feeling any saddness.

What I was wondering was how other INTP's deal with grief? Is it wrong to feel bad that I don't feel very bad? I am super confused...

 

[Pbuoy]

So, today I found out that my dad has cancer and is likely to die in the next 12 months. For some reason, I don't feel very sad, or emotional at all. My sister says that I am like a robot sometimes, I can just turn off the water works. My husband thinks it's unnatural not to feel some stage of grief but perhaps the shock and denial is stopping me from feeling any saddness.

What I was wondering was how other INTP's deal with grief? Is it wrong to feel bad that I don't feel very bad? I am super confused...

I'd feel a little sad, but also understanding, because death is a part of life.
Personally, I would think about the source of my grief. Where does it come from?
You don't have to feel bad, it's not your fault.
Humans show emotion when one of their kind dies, and some animals don't. I think that INTP feel emotion to a certain extent, but they usually don't exhibit them in any way.

The thing I am most certain of is that if most INTP do not form intimate connections, they will not have intimate responses to death.

Hypothesis:
If most true INTPs do not usually form intimate connections, then they should not be emotional about the death of a family member, because they do not have anything to feel sad about.(rationally)

{Sorry for my lack of logic or form[I don't want to be logical anymore today, I just had an argument about religion and politics(In real life.)]}

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

The grief of loosing a loved one didn't hit me until two years after the event.

Edit: There is not correct way to grieve. Don't let people assert that you are a robot for not grieving as they do.

 

[Jesse]

When my friend died I didn't feel instant sadness. People react in different ways and there is nothing wrong with it. Of course you will feel sadness at some point.

 

[Deridaburi]

It doesn't make sense to grieve in the same way as people with differing personalities do. When things like that happened to me, I stopped caring about everything all together. Almost like if I cared about any small thing, I would intern feel the entire weight of the sorrow at one time.

 

[lightspeed]

When I lost my father last year, I was DEEPLY devastated! We were very close, and it caused a severe spiral into a horribly dark depression, one which I've still not recovered fully.



I think the reason it hurt so much, is because it was completely unexpected (murder) and I was not prepared at all to lose him so early in his/my life. What I'm trying to say, is it is completely normal to not feel grief or extreme sadness, when there is still some hope that a person might/ will live for a while vs dying suddenly and unexpectedly.

My mom had cancer several years back, and I was worried, but did not grieve, as she wasn't dead. Maybe it's the fact that you haven't lost him yet. You can't always go with the death sentence or time-line a doctor gives, even with a severe diagnosis.

If I were you, I'd make a sincere effort to make time to spend with him. One thing I didn't regret was how often I contacted or went to see my dad. I also didn't regret how I told him I loved him nearly every day. I could understand that a person might live with much more regret, if they didn't spend enough time with a family member that they eventually lose.


Spend as much time as possible with your father, and let him know how much you love and care for him. Your strength might actually be helpful to your father, and it will comfort him, for sure.

 

[Vegard Pompey]

He's dead, Jim.

 

[pjoa09]

When I lost my father last year, I was DEEPLY devastated! We were very close, and it caused a severe spiral into a horribly dark depression, one which I've still not recovered fully.



I think the reason it hurt so much, is because it was completely unexpected (murder) and I was not prepared at all to lose him so early in his/my life. What I'm trying to say, is it is completely normal to not feel grief or extreme sadness, when there is still some hope that a person might/ will live for a while vs dying suddenly and unexpectedly.

My mom had cancer several years back, and I was worried, but did not grieve, as she wasn't dead. Maybe it's the fact that you haven't lost him yet. You can't always go with the death sentence or time-line a doctor gives, even with a severe diagnosis.

If I were you, I'd make a sincere effort to make time to spend with him. One thing I didn't regret was how often I contacted or went to see my dad. I also didn't regret how I told him I loved him nearly every day. I could understand that a person might live with much more regret, if they didn't spend enough time with a family member that they eventually lose.


Spend as much time as possible with your father, and let him know how much you love and care for him. Your strength might actually be helpful to your father, and it will comfort him, for sure.

i dont mean to impose or anything but.. i remember a post before as well..which sums you up as mid twenties father who lost his own father before maturity whos mother as well nearly died from cancer?

it seems wayy too shocking.like is it true and for real?

 

[pjoa09]

oh and as for the whole robotic grieving.. yeah it happens when you are close.. i never went to the funerals of my grandmother or my grandfather.. didnt even feel a thing in my chest. the most i thought when my father died was.. damn a problem everyones upset and wailing.. could they please stop? should i go outside?

but that is the thing i was never ever emotionally in contact with either of them. but when my dog passed away i cried. and i would cry if any of my true family members would die. i think perhaps you are ready to leave him. he no longer needs to burden himself over you and you are emotionally healthy.

i cry over strange things like dying pigeons and stuff like that.. i dunno its maybe INTPness to feel grief for certain living things because we feel connection with them other than normal stuff like people.

 

[Jennywocky]

The thing I am most certain of is that if most INTP do not form intimate connections, they will not have intimate responses to death.

There is some truth to that. I remember when my grandfather died (when I was in high school), I didn't cry; but I only saw him twice a year, if that. Meanwhile, my dog got put to sleep the same year, and I bawled.

Some other things to consider:

1. Everyone responds to grief differently, and not just according to MBTI type lines. Don't necessarily think something is wrong just because you are not expressing grief like others in your family. Family dynamics and life experiences, even biochemical balance, can play a part in how you emotionally respond to large events like this. If you are used to being a stabilizing force in your family while other members "freak" a lot, this will naturally play into an event like this. But even depression and lack of sleep on your part can deaden emotional response. Hormone levels can too; when mine are low, I don't respond physically to much, when they're higher, I can cry within a few seconds' time without effort.
2. INTPs are big picture, balance seekers. We often see gain along with loss and vice versa, we look at all sides. This can temper our emotional responses to extremes on both ends -- traumatic AND joyful events.
3. Some people grieve early, some wait until they are sure. There were indications that my mother had pancreatic cancer the last few months; but we did not have conclusive results from medical tests, so I allowed myself to experience potential grief only with reservation, I couldn't allow myself to grieve too deeply before we found out for sure... and as it turned out, it doesn't seem to be cancer, so...no need to grieve until you know something is pretty sure. But there are others who will suffer the shock as if it were current, rather than future.

I think also depending on the situation with your dad and your family, Gia, the grief/loss might not hit you until later, if it does. My relationship with my father sucks. If he died tomorrow, I wouldn't cry because frankly he's had it coming for years (he's basically done a decades-long suicide because he does not have the cajones to live) and he's treated me like crap; but later?

I think where I'd cry would be when I really realize any hope of amends is now permanently over, and I start thinking more about how much I wish I'd had a father, etc., and now that hope of him ever rising the occasion would be gone; IOW, it would be crying more about what I had lost / never had than about him per se.

We all cry for different reasons and at different times.

I'm sorry your dad and your family and you are facing this. If you don't feel much right now, if I were in your shoes, I just intellectually assess and make sure I get everything done while he's still alive that I would ever hope to accomplish, so if and when the time ends, I could feel good about that much at least.

@Lightspeed: Good post, and it's also a wakeup call to realize we don't have to just approach this from the view of our own internal state and what's going on there... the person who might be dying is in a [final] transition period of their own lives, and we can give to them to help them make that crossing and give closure to them, as a gift. Sometimes those sorts of investments will also "awaken" our own inner feelings as well, as it's pulling us closer to people.

 

[SQ_Minion]

The only family members I have that have died are both grandparents on my father's side, but I haven't felt sad about that, most likely because they more or less "had it coming" for an extended period. Imagining the death of either parent only makes me wonder what life will be like without them--not sadness. Imagining the death of one of my pets, however, does provoke sadness.

I think I'm broken.

 

[giaduck]

I think also depending on the situation with your dad and your family, Gia, the grief/loss might not hit you until later, if it does. My relationship with my father sucks. If he died tomorrow, I wouldn't cry because frankly he's had it coming for years (he's basically done a decades-long suicide because he does not have the cajones to live) and he's treated me like crap; but later?

You know, my dad has been talking about killing himself since I was 11 years old. It could be that I am all out of tears and and kind of glad (in a sick way) that he is finally going to snuff it. Not because he is a burden on me, but because this is what he has wanted for a very long time, and who am I to deny him that? My relationship with him is a strange thing; I love him, but at the same time he frustrates me. He is severely mentally and physically ill, but refuses to seek help or treatment. He can't swallow his pride and would rather die than let go of his ego.

The problem with trying to spend as much time with him as possible is that I live in Australia, and he lives in America. I can't just drop everything at home to come and see him, and there is no definite time that he will die. I am going to be in the America for the next 3 weeks and after that I don't know when I'll see him again. The thing to do is to try and make the best of the time I am given and let him know that I do love and care, even if I seem aloof a lot of the time.

I don't feel anger or regret, sorrow or bitterness. I only feel a sense of...relief? I know it sounds horrible to say that.

 

[Trebuchet]

What I was wondering was how other INTP's deal with grief? Is it wrong to feel bad that I don't feel very bad? I am super confused...

How you feel is how you feel. There isn't a right or wrong way to grieve. You will do it your own way, in your own time, and it isn't for other people to judge you. You are not a robot, you are not emotionless, and you are not unnatural.

Just be there for the rest of your family. Later you might need them to be there for you. In the meantime, someone who can carry on successfully during this difficult time might be exactly what your family needs.

Given the back history you describe, I can see relief as a completely appropriate response. It isn't horrible of you at all.

 

[EditorOne]

Don't be surprised to get ambushed by your emotions, and don't stifle them when they emerge. Remember, we aren't people who don't HAVE emotions, we're people who aren't GOOD with emotions to move us along through life, so we rely on other things. I made it through my father's cancer, hospitalization, was there when he died, made it through the funeral, very calm. A week later I'm walking through a local department store and a peer who'd shared a lot of quality time with me and my father saw me and came over to say how sorry he was he'd missed the funeral and how was I doing, and I lost it, waterworks full blast, in public, you can, I'm sure, imagine what a train wreck it seemed to me. But most people just thought that was what I was supposed to do in the first place, so don't sweat it if and when it happens to you.
NOW I miss him more than I did the first five years or so after he died. There was a considerable age gap -- I was born when he was 40, and he died when I was 40, so I actually feel kind of shortchanged, there's lots of stuff I wanted to ask him and never got around to. There are times even recently where I wish he was still around so I could bounce ideas off him.
Anyway, don't think you're necessarily going to remain what everyone is calling robot-like. For the sake of not pissing people off during what's going to be an emotionally stressful time, it might be good to occasionally quietly just say "I care, but it may not show, just assume I'm right there with you in wanting to do whatever we can do." Other people communicate at times like this by sharing emotions. You may have to share thoughts, possibly reminiscenses of good times. And that's for the sake of your father and everyone around you, you put forth some behavior that will probably exhaust you rather than just remaining walled in. There's a time to be a militant INTP: This isn't one of them. You aren't violating any principles by trying to make it easier for everyone else by deliberately trying to get involved in sharing the experience of your father's illness and death. That's my hindsight: I wasn't deliberately snotty during the whole experience, but I can see now I pulled away and distanced myself somewhat. My advice is, don't do that.
Additionally, not being sure of your role in your family, your age, whatever, this may or may not apply, but sometimes when emotions are running high the INTP is the go-to guy for suggesting practical action. Just be careful. In fact you might even go your father and say something like "given that I'm the oddball around here, what can I do you'd find helpful?"
And my condolences. My wife just lost her father last week, also terminal cancer, and to some extent I'm taking the advice I'm giving you. She's borderling INTJ/INTP with more F in her T than I have, so it's not really a problem, but I'm trying to make myself sympathetic, empathetic and useful.
I hope this helps.

 

[giaduck]

Well I'll give you a bit of back-history: I am 22 and the youngest of the bunch, and yes I am sad that my father's only grandchild may not remember him (she is 2 years old). I've always been able to relate to him (I am pretty sure he is an ENTP) though his depression always put a damper on the characteristic enthusiasm that most ENTP's seem to exude. He doesn't seem all that concerned about his cancer, in fact he welcomes death. I'm not really sure what to believe, but if he is at peace with himself, then I am going to allow it. You are probably right about the emotional train catching up to me...I won't be able to go to him for recipes anymore, or talk about crazy theories that I have.

I left home when I was 17 because my family is full of crazies, so I haven't really been around much the past 5 years. In fact, I only saw my father again recently since I moved, and that was because I came to california for my best friend's wedding. He was always the person you couldn't rely on, so I didn't talk to him very much unless it was about something non-seirous. We discuss religion and philosophy, science, technology, history and linguistics. I will miss his intelligence, but not his temperamental behavoir.

I think when I look back on all of this, I try to remember the good things about him and not the bad, my sister has a very hard time letting go of anger and sorrow...something that she drowns every night at the bottom of the bottle. Despite being typically unaffected by most problems in my life, I am surprisingly sensitive. I just choose not to let things get to me, so I suppose one could call me an optimist.

If my dad isn't freaking out, why should I be? I think that's what some of the others in my family don't understand. Besides, my motto in life is the good old Hakuna Matata... I try not to worry and just let it come

 

[Jennywocky]

You know, my dad has been talking about killing himself since I was 11 years old. It could be that I am all out of tears and and kind of glad (in a sick way) that he is finally going to snuff it. Not because he is a burden on me, but because this is what he has wanted for a very long time, and who am I to deny him that? My relationship with him is a strange thing; I love him, but at the same time he frustrates me. He is severely mentally and physically ill, but refuses to seek help or treatment. He can't swallow his pride and would rather die than let go of his ego.

Yes, I very much relate to that.

My dad doesn't have the physical illness (except whatever the alcohol and smoking has done to his body for 4-5 decades), but basically it is like he was so badly wounded in childhood by something that he remained a small boy emotionally and has never been able to admit his faults or his feelings, let others give him advice or take care of him. His ego is too big and too fragile, so instead he became a bully in some ways, runs away / hides himself in others, and never really opens up to anyone except when very drunk... which ruins it. (Most of the times he told me he loved me, he was utterly drunk; to me, that is like getting a Christmas present covered in dung.) All of which is a shame, because he definitely had people in his life who put up with that crap for far too long; he had people who would have stuck with him, but he chose not to open up.

He almost died a few years ago, was in fact literally dying from kidney/liver failure and all the other stuff that goes along with alcoholism, but my mom was so upset and helpless -- and they were watching my kids overnight at the time -- that I convinced him to go to the hospital and somehow he managed to pull through. But I hated investing like that and still don't know if I did the right thing; I felt like it was so clear what he wanted, and I respect people's decisions for their own lives, and so I was just prolonging the inevitable... and pretty much that is what has happened since he gave up trying to stay out of the bottle again (his ego was too big to stay in AA or other support groups), and in the meanwhile he has made my life hell in other ways. I paid a price for helping him pull through, and so did others. When my mom thought she had pancreatic cancer two weeks ago (after initial tests were bad), she told him; and instead of being there for her, he went off and got drunk and she had to deal with the dread all alone. Further tests showed my mom to have something else, which is good; but it's a clear sign that he was incapable of being there for others.

I have no idea how to feel about him or if and when I would cry at his passing now. I remember back then, in some ways, what I felt at the thought of his death was potential relief. I did cry when I thought he had died (since he coded blue at the hospital when I was with him, and then he was on a respirator for two days and usually people have trouble coming back from that), but I couldn't separate that from concern about him vs concern about how my life was changing. Suddenly I was the oldest child in the family, and I felt like I had to take care of everyone and know what to do... but I felt inadequate and lost. I think it was more about me and my loss than about him per se.

The problem with trying to spend as much time with him as possible is that I live in Australia, and he lives in America. I can't just drop everything at home to come and see him, and there is no definite time that he will die.

Oh definitely. That would be very hard, to know what to do. And I know what you mean -- my dad should have been dead so many times now, even my kids make good-natured jokes about how he just keeps going and going and just won't die even after all the damage he's caused to himself. It's such a big commitment for you to get back, because chances are he won't pass on... but if it actually IS the time and you do not...? That's a horrible situation to be in.

I am going to be in the America for the next 3 weeks and after that I don't know when I'll see him again. The thing to do is to try and make the best of the time I am given and let him know that I do love and care, even if I seem aloof a lot of the time.

I think that is the best way to go about it, honestly.

And if you can make it seem like a gift to him, that's good; but even if you can't, basically it is a gift you can give yourself. Because you don't want to spend the rest of your life second-guessing yourself or feeling like you could have done more but didn't. That would be a horrible feeling for you to bear.

I don't feel anger or regret, sorrow or bitterness. I only feel a sense of...relief? I know it sounds horrible to say that.

It does "sound" horrible, but I think if you read a lot of stories about people in our shoes, or people who have had to deal with loved ones with chronic terminal illnesses, or similar things, etc., you'll see that same motif in all their comments -- on some level, they feel relief that it is all finally over, and then they feel some level of guilt about feeling that relief.

You're gonna be okay, it sounds like you have the right attitude -- the best one possible -- right now on how to deal with him. You can only do whatever you can do.

(My dad is an ESTP, btw...)

 

[chuhulil]

I understand this. And I feel like this a lot too.

For some reason, I always feel like I'm trying to push myself to be emotional when something happens and I cry. It's almost like I'm forcing myself to cry, and forcing myself to be sad. I tried to shed tears when I found out that my grandma was in the hospital, but no matter how hard I tried I didn't. And, later, when I found out that one of my friends was in a coma, I tried to cry, but just couldn't.

I tend to cry for stupid things, but for things that would make anyone else bawl, like the death or injury of a family member, I'm not as emotional.

 

[walfin]

Hi, I don't know what to say, but I think if you feel bad that you don't feel bad, you cannot possibly be a robot.

Perhaps the lack of grief would be the best thing for your father.

 

[starsnghts]

It all comes down to how close you are to the person. If they are your parent or best friend I would imagine you would feel sad. Personally I have only lost two of my seven grandparents and these two in particular I did not know well. I did not feel sad back when they died but I wish I could have known them better.

 

[Deleted member 1424]

My Great Grandmother died last night, I've seen her twice in the last decade, though I saw her frequently when I was young. I'm actually rather surprised she's lived as long as she has. She was probably the sanest person on that side of the family and the only person who gave my Dad the time of day when he was young. Can't really say I feel anything aside from concern for my Dad.

I saw her a final time last Winter, she was extremely ill at the time and everyone thought she'd die within a moment. I was surprised (and quite unnerved) with how many pictures of me (though not my siblings) she had up. The rituals concerning imminent death quite disturbed me as well. My thoughts were darker than they've ever been, as there was a distinct feeling that everyone around me (and myself I suppose) were just waiting for her to die. Then there was in-fighting amongst relatives and the whole thing just made me sick.

It's curious, last time I felt guilty about my lack of grief, but now I don't even feel that.

 

[NoID10ts]

What EditorOne said really hits home for me.

I was extremely close to my Grandmother and when her health was rapidly declining because of a brain tumor, I don't recall being all that devastated or emotional. I did have moments where I would kind of break down, but overall I was pretty stoic. I just remember feeling kind of numb and confused about how I should feel about it. But my mom and I were on our way to see her at the hospice facility when she died, we arrived about 10 minutes after, and when I saw her body lying there I completely broke down which I think took my mom and the nurses by surprise. That moment is still etched into my memory like it was yesterday even though it was in 2002.

Grief can hit out of no where.

My wife's mom has stage four cancer and she was given 6 months to a year to live in January of 2008. She's still here, but I can't imagine her being around for much longer. You never really know how long they have or in what unexpected ways it will effect you.

 

[Cavallier]

I wonder that I have lived so long but not had anybody close to me die yet. I've only had one grandparent die and I was by far not her favorite granddaughter. We were like two aliens examining one another. We could not even relate on the most basic levels. When she died it was no surprise though she did go quickly. It was a fast growing brain cancer. My cousins who were closer to her, had grown up with her, grieved long and loudly. They still grieve though it's been 4 years. I did not go to the funeral because it was 2000 miles away and I couldn't scrape the money together to go.

I was taking a shower about a month after she died and when I got out of the shower I noticed this hideous little crocheted red-haired doll that covered the tissue paper box. She and I couldn't possibly ever understand each other but every year she would crochet things that involved a red-haired girl on them. She was the only redhead in her generation, her son (my father) was the only redhead in his generation, and I was her only redheaded grandchild and I think that's the only thing that connected us. I cried a lot. It was weird. But I think I was grieving.

 

[echoplex]

I think that if I were to really connect with someone I would cry like a baby if I thought I was about to lose them. I don't think this has happened yet though.

I have only experienced four funerals but I wasn't really that close to any of the deceased. Though, one of them, my great grandmother, I knew fairly well and I always found her to be so generous and peaceful. That one caused me to choke up a bit but it's like I still couldn't really access any genuine emotion at the time, which was very frustrating. I sometimes feel like I don't know how to cry.

There is nothing wrong with you, giaduck.

 

[shadowdrums4]

I know what you mean Giaduck. When my grandpa died, I didn't react at all. Strange because he's where I got all my music talent from, but I just didn't know him. I was in 6th grade. We were each supposed to go in there and say goodbye to him, I didn't know what to say. I stuck to basics, that I loved him and all, but I just wanted to get back to my chips. After the whole family had gone, my grandma went back in and came out a few minutes later. She whispered "he's gone" I stopped eating for a second, then started eating again. I was told to go get my cousin, who was very close to my grandpa. I walked up and said "Grandpa's dead" with a bored informative tone that you'd use to say "Dinner's ready." He got mad and assumed I was lying. "That's not funny" "I'm serious" "Don't play around" Looking back I realize he was in denial and I know I didn't help him at all. I went to the funeral, but I just wanted out of there. Maybe it was because I didn't know him well. I had spent 2 weeks there in second grade but he was working almost the whole time. I got some musical advice out of him that didn't help me until after he died, and I wish I could have talked to him, but I never really had to grieve over him. *shrug*

On the other hand, my Aunt Traci is very sick right now. I was told she was dying a little while ago. I haven't spent a total of even a day with her, and I'm already closer to her then I am to most of my other family members. I hung out with her for maybe an hour after the funeral, and another time when I was a little younger for maybe two hours. We are extremely similar. It's crazy how the power of genetics can work. When I found out, I didn't have a reaction. I got a text from her daughter that she was getting worse while I was at school, and didn't react until I told a friend. "Are you okay" and suddenly I wasn't. I was immediately trying to dry the tears and make myself stop crynig, but I couldn't. She's still around now, but I don't know how long. I'm just happy that I still get some time to talk with her before she goes. I don't know if anymore grieving over her will happen to be honest though.

 

[MunkySpanker]

So, today I found out that my dad has cancer and is likely to die in the next 12 months. For some reason, I don't feel very sad, or emotional at all. My sister says that I am like a robot sometimes, I can just turn off the water works. My husband thinks it's unnatural not to feel some stage of grief but perhaps the shock and denial is stopping me from feeling any saddness.

What I was wondering was how other INTP's deal with grief? Is it wrong to feel bad that I don't feel very bad? I am super confused...

when my father was sick (heart disease), I felt bad that I didn't feel the instant emotional sadness that should go along with a parent about to die. He died August of 2006. I didn't cry about it till this year. It was as if I denied the event, almost act like it didn't happen. Well, it did. And this year, I came to terms with it. Not that I wasn't aware that my father wasn't around for the last few years... but it was like I was dodging my own thoughts for a few years. Burying myself in work so I wouldn't think about it.

You can call it a strength or a weakness that we are able to do that. There's no right or wrong -- but take it from me -- 4-5 years bottling that shit up is not worth it.

Watch Fight Club. Cry it out like Edward Norton cries it out on the fat dude's titties. It may feel uncomfortable at first, but necessary. Will happen now, or later. But, it will happen. You are a human being, and you will FEEL these emotions, eventually, and one way or another.

You have the mental fortitude to control the timing and duration of your emotions -- so should that be your curse, or your strength?

for you to decide.

 

[giaduck]

It's a bit of a curse and a strength. I am there for the people who need it, but at the same time feel almost nothing. It's been more than two weeks and I still can't bring myself to care very much. It's not that I don't love him, I would just rather dwell on the good than on the bad. Everyone dies, some sooner than others.

Or, more likely, I am in denial and it won't actually hurt until I accept the truth.