The End of Gender?

[psion]

I still think family bathrooms are way different than sharing it with strangers. I already take extra precautions using ladies bathrooms.

Are you perhaps wary of something happening in the bathroom? If so, do you think is is the cause of your distaste for the idea of gender-neutral bathrooms? I'm only asking because your comment struck me as a little different than what I thought your stance was. To me it seems like you don't have a moral issue against it but a personal safety issue.

 

[Jordan~]

A personal safety issue will be informed by a moral issue - if we're prejudiced to believe that someone's moral character is lower than average, we're more likely to believe that they pose a threat to our personal safety.

 

[Joz_helloworld]

Hmmm.. gender neutral bathrooms. I said before I thought it was "a bit silly." I'm not sure of my stance on that. I've used them before and they haven't posed any real problems as such. But I know people who would be devastated by such a move. My (male) partner would be one. He already has a near phobia about public toilets, adding women to the equation would only make it worse. He already pretends just to wash his hands if he walks in and there is already someone using the toilets. If he is desparate, he'll go in the cubicle, but he hates that coz he has to touch the door and stuff... he'll put paper in the bowl to stop it making noise... doing a crap is out of the question...

At uni, I found that men like to do big hocking noises when they shower, I didn't find that particularly nice when I was trying to get clean... yet I dealt with it... meanwhile, with about 30 people on each floor who shared the shower block, and about 5 floors had access to each others floors, there were no incidents when I was there of anyone trying to peer into anyone's cubicle or the like.

So I'm looking back at that time, and thinking, were there any lessons there? And perhaps, the men were even more respectful of the privacy of women in the bathroom than they would have been had the bathrooms been some kind of off-limits no-go-zones... where people always want what they can't have... they didn't want us peering into theirs either... we were all just humans living in the same space trying to get on with whatever we needed to do... I can only guess at how the men found it, but on balance it was probably a good thing.

On the other hand, I lived in a share house where one guy consistently pissed on the seat... That wasn't even public...

So all I have here are a series of personal experiences, I think there was a benefit at uni, a more shared humanity, a more equal equality, on the other hand these things are very personal and involve the physical differences between men and women.

Overall, I lean towards supporting gender-neutral toilets, it is a little confronting at first but it does break down differences.

 

[Zionoxis]

Except the hormone increase from one shot only lasts a week on average. Your genetics are what determine the hormone levels your body aims for. If there is an article from a reputable source that explains your point I would be happy to read it. I still don't completely agree that homosexuality and transgenderism are completely hormonal. Also, this doesn't address intersex or hermaphrodite persons, where the issue to be addressed would occur during prenatal development.

The hormone level is not what create homosexuality supposedly, it is that your hormone levels while you are first born affect how your brain develops (and how it reacts to hormones later on). If you inject enough of the hormone for that week, the brain will develop the parts it needs.

Supposedly, homosexuality is not that one has too little of a hormone in them, it is simply that the brain was not developed to properly REACT to it. If the brain is allowed to develop for that critical point immediately after birth, we may yet have a solution.

 

[Jordan~]

Really? For me it's that I'm attracted to male-gendered, male-sexed people. But I guess you're right, that probably is a result of my brain reacting incorrectly to hormones in such a selective way that I'm not attracted to non-male-gendered, male-sexed people or male-gendered, female-sexed people or in fact the majority of male-gendered, male-sexed people, since I won't just go for any man. Those hormones sure are complicated. I can't wait until someone solves my nonexistent problem, then nutjobs can throw paint on me and shout, "Why have you not cured yourself yet!?"

I like that the 'proper' reaction is the one that leads to the kind of sex of which Jehovah approves.

 

[Jennywocky]

Awesome, I live in Canada so I wouldn't know. It's a quick $137 here in Ontario, no judge, even no publication in the paper if you don't want (not that anyone would really notice anyways).

That's pretty nice. States here are all different in regards to name changes, gender changes, etc., on DL's. Some states are very progressive; states like Texas and Ohio and Tennessee are not. I live in Pennsylvania. DIY name changes here (aside from marriage, which is more automated) demand you fill out paperwork, pay around $120 to file (?), then run a notice in two publications (cost depends on the paper), and then go to court in order to get an official notice. I think overall $250-300 is about the cheapest you can do. As of last year, with gender changes, you just need to fill out a form and get a doctor's letter; it was big news in the mainstream press when that came out.

I meant the bathroom that matches their identified gender.

Ah okay.

I just meant that learning to feel comfortable in the right bathroom will boost your confidence and make you feel a lot better about yourself and your gender identity. Constantly avoiding going to the bathroom is just going to make you feel physically uncomfortable (obviously :P), and mentally as well (as if you can't even do something as simple as go to the washroom in the "right way"). Although the family washrooms would help this, but I don't think people would generally support money being spent on gender-neutral bathrooms, and bathrooms with stalls fit more people in a smaller space than family washrooms, so places generally only have one, if at all, and waiting in a line with a bunch of people with small children to go to the washroom isn't going to help your confidence at all.

I do suppose that sounded kind of harsh without explanation, didn't mean it to! I'm trans myself, and learning to use the washroom is just a part of the transition, it would be great if it wasn't but I don't think that's changing soon.

I think what you've said here makes a lot of sense, and the bathroom issue is a big one -- the conservatives have been leveraging it all around the country in their measures to fight "the gay and trans agenda" ... whatever that happens to be, trying to scare people with the thought of male rapists in dresses. Have you typically had good experiences so far when in public?

Oh cool, I didn't know about that. I take it from reading your post that you study this kind of thing?

Gender is a topic I have always been really interested in, so I started following the research in the early '90's especially with brain studies. The research is why both the APA and the AMA have recommended that insurance companies should cover transsexual surgery rather than denying it as "cosmetic"; and the IRA agreed with that assessment I think last March (2010). So you know the case must have been pretty convincing, if the IRA was willing to sacrifice money by making it tax-deductible.

I'm not sure where Ecker's most current compilation of research is, but here's a page that has some links on it.

http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2009/05/brain-gender-identity-presentation-by.html

Because I missed this dollop of repugnance until Jennywocky pointed it out like someone suggesting that the odd smell in a room may be a result of the person-shaped bump under the carpet, I didn't respond to it earlier.

Glad I could be of hel... *gasp* Wait, what is that person-shaped bump under the carpet????!

I don't think homosexuality is going to be "cured" either, because it's no longer considered a disease. The APA removed it from the DSM mainly in 1973 and stripped any residuals out in 1985 or so; I'm not aware of any movement in the medical field to declare it a disease and expunge it.

There are big ongoing arguments with the new upcoming release of the DSM about how gender identity disorder will be handled. Maybe someday that won't be included either. It seems that therapy basically does crap to "cure" it, the literature has few records of that; meanwhile, surgery abates the depression for many, and otherwise shifting social gender standards alleviates some of the tension as well.

The hormone level is not what create homosexuality supposedly, it is that your hormone levels while you are first born affect how your brain develops (and how it reacts to hormones later on). If you inject enough of the hormone for that week, the brain will develop the parts it needs.

Supposedly, homosexuality is not that one has too little of a hormone in them, it is simply that the brain was not developed to properly REACT to it. If the brain is allowed to develop for that critical point immediately after birth, we may yet have a solution.

References, please.
Thanks.

 

[xbox]

Are you perhaps wary of something happening in the bathroom? If so, do you think is is the cause of your distaste for the idea of gender-neutral bathrooms? I'm only asking because your comment struck me as a little different than what I thought your stance was. To me it seems like you don't have a moral issue against it but a personal safety issue.

No.. I dont need to be molested or raped to show distaste for public gender neutral bathrooms. It's just a personal safety/germaphobic issue. Or probably my first-grader-esque "boys have cooties" phase that I've never really come out of. Yes I think thats not exactly a good reason to not have them, it's just my worthless opinion.

PS: to elaborate on the "extra precautions" that I mentioned in an earlier post, I never actually use public bathrooms except on the rare occasion. I prefer my personal bathroom. And I carry Lysol and other anti-bacterial crap with me if I absolutely have to go and there's no other way out.