The Death Penalty

[Interdimensionist]

Just wanted to get some perspective on this topic as I got into a bit of a heated discussion about it last night, the other party, being a typical ESTJ, attempted to twist my words around and attack me personally due our polarizing views on the matter instead of come up with a coherent and rational rebuttal and it left me wondering why so many people seem to share the same view as him and whether or not my argument actually has any sound reasoning behind it.

Essentially my friend argued that pedophiles should be put to death without exception whereas I attempted to approach the debate from the angle that people who exhibit such behavior should be studied and researched (whilst in custody of course.) in order for us to better understand if their behavior essentially comes down to some sort of neurological malfunction that could in essence be treated and eradicated like any other disease.

I explained to him in a very clear way that I in no way consider their actions justifiable, only that I don't think taking the easy solution (kill 'em all) actually solves anything as people who commit such crimes will continue to exist in society and all we would effectively be doing is doling out punishment after the fact and seeking revenge for an action already in the past when it would be far more beneficial to society as a whole if we could prevent this sort of behavior from occurring in the first place.

He tried to accuse me of being on the side of pedophiles and completely missed the point I was trying to make which basically comes down to this: I personally would take more consolation in the fact that my children would be free from harm from such people (I am aware it is unlikely they would ever truly be free from harm given the nature of the world we live but bear with me.) than in being granted the right to end the perpetrator's life after such a heinous crime had already been committed. I can understand wanting to take revenge on someone but surely the proposed alternative, although idealistic and perhaps naively so, would be better? Obviously a metric shit tonne of research etc. would be required before we ever reached the stage where we could eliminate these traits from the gene pool but still, we can dream, no?

He also had an outburst where he shouted that they should all be drowned/castrated at birth and then got annoyed with me for pointing out the obvious flaw in this statement so make of that what you will, anyway what do you guys think? Everyone else I've asked seems to miss my point and thinks I'm either a crackpot or a sympathizer and I'm 110% sure I am not the latter.

 

[Fukyo]

I get what you mean. A lot of people harbor the same sentiment about pedophiles, I've found. (inb4 Sinny )

Did you intend this thread for the discussion of death penalty in general or just as it pertains to pedophilia?

My opinion is simple: Sexual predators should be dealt with via legal channels, but a pedophile is not necessarily a predator at the same time, hence I can't justify execution of pedophiles who have never abused a child. That would be punishment for a thought crime essentially.


Keep in mind that your acquaintance's exaggerated reaction is very likely the consequence of being a victim of child abuse, or being close to someone who was.

 

[Interdimensionist]

Welp, I guess I intended for this thread to be a way for me to vent and hear how right I was, which I always am.

But to be honest the death penalty has always been one of those topics I've had a hard time making my mind up on and it would be interesting to hear other's thoughts on the matter, besides don't most of our threads tend to go off topic at some point or another?

I think the margin for error is too high when it comes to conviction for anyone to be playing with potentially innocent people's lives hence why I've normally been critical towards capital punishment. Also people's biases tend to come into play etc. making it extremely difficult in some cases to unearth the truth. It just always seem like there is too much a possibility of condemning an innocent to death for me, also what would give us the right to choose who lives or dies regardless of the act committed? Considering the majority of states where the death penalty is still enforced seem to belong to the bible belt, would this form of judgement and execution not go against christian values? He who cast the first stone and all that?

Regarding sexual predators, there was an interesting case here in the UK a while back where a man came out and admitted to having inappropriate thoughts about children, at the time I remember thinking brilliant, at least we can monitor him now he has come clean before he actually does anything whereas everyone else seemed to be of the opinion that he should be lynched just for having those thoughts despite coming forward and admitting to it, he recognized it was wrong hence the reason he made it public and took the story to the papers. Surely if everyone of a similar disposition did likewise, this would be ideal? Know your enemy and all?

 

[QuickTwist]

I attempted to approach the debate from the angle that people who exhibit such behavior should be studied and researched (whilst in custody of course.) in order for us to better understand if their behavior essentially comes down to some sort of neurological malfunction that could in essence be treated and eradicated like any other disease.

Beautiful

 

[Brontosaurie]

If i'm assaulted and if necessary i will not hesitate to give a death penalty.

 

[Interdimensionist]

Not believing in any deity or afterlife I would be of the same opinion as Brontosaurie, if someone assaulted me in my home or on the street in some sort of hypothetical life or death scenario, I think I should have the right to defend myself/family even if that means using lethal force. I wouldn't be too happy about it considering it could have been avoided but being human it's only natural I would favor my own survival over some asshole murderer's survival.

The question is however; being as objective as possible i.e you have no personal connection to the case/criminal/victim, do you consider the death penalty a viable and reasonable method of punishment in a modern judicial system? Everyone would probably say the same if they were the victim i.e they would not hesitate to give a death penalty.

I guess some arguments in favor of the death penalty would be more disposable tax money from not having to house as many prisoners and lower re-offending rates etc. (the flaw here is that the crime committed would have to be serious enough to warrant the death penalty in a country where it is enforced whilst also allowing the prisoner the probability that they could someday be released in a country where it is not, quite a conundrum.)

 

[Reluctantly]

Truth be told, you really can't argue with extremist thinking. They aren't thinking clearly to begin with. If someone is a pedophile it doesn't mean they will think it's okay to have sex with children. And then there's no reason to kill them just for being attracted to children.

I'm a little more concerned that that person assumes people will act on their desires regardless of the moral consequences. Probably says more about them than it does about pedophiles.

 

[QuickTwist]

If i'm assaulted and if necessary i will not hesitate to give a death penalty.

Am I the only one who thinks this is funny?

 

[Grayman]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=93947&page=1

Doesn't seem so bad to me but then I think it would be interesting to be an Eunuch. Think of how objective I would be able to be.

I guess they are using shots to reduce testosterone in most cases because castration is too appalling for the general populace to handle.

Across the nation, law enforcement officials are experimenting with other ways to tinker with offenders' libidos to help them control their behavior. In Colorado, for example, state prison officials are administering anti-depressants to offenders to study the drugs' effects on reducing their sexual appetites.

I don't disagree with you but it isn't as if they aren't already doing it. You have to balance human rights with this also.

 

[Interdimensionist]

Just to clarify, do you mean to say that it says more about the people who think pedophiles will still abuse children regardless of consequence because they themselves would usually disregard the consequences their own actions have in daily life (albeit in less serious scenarios) or because you think that the death penalty would be enough of a deterrent so as to stop pedophiles from committing abuse?

I doubt it's the latter but if by some chance that is what you meant I'm sure we could easily find a whole fuckload of examples of people doing just that death penalty or not.

I see what you mean about arguing with extremist thinking though, I can see it usually comes from a good place where the person recognizes that thing A is bad and X people committing thing A should be punished but it just seems a really simplistic way of dealing with something.
Imagine if we cut off the hands of a thief who stole an apple because he was hungry, sure there is one less thief in the world but what are you gonna do about all the starving folk? Why are they so hungry so as to resort to stealing in the first fucking place?

Edit@ QuickTwist, made me chuckle a little inside cos I pictured him being mugged and then sentencing the poor guy to death on the spot with a portable guillotine or something but that's a lie because I'm dead on the inside.

 

[Reluctantly]

Yeah, the former. Not sure what you mean about a starving thief.

 

[Grayman]

Truth be told, you really can't argue with extremist thinking. They aren't thinking clearly to begin with. If someone is a pedophile it doesn't mean they will think it's okay to have sex with children. And then there's no reason to kill them just for being attracted to children.

I'm a little more concerned that that person assumes people will act on their desires regardless of the moral consequences. Probably says more about them than it does about pedophiles.

In some cases the pedophile is only attracted to children. Could you expect them to be abstinent their whole life? Could you do it? They cannot even look at porn that they enjoy without going to jail for it. How long do you think most people can do that?

 

[QuickTwist]

I wouldn't stop at pedofiles though. I'd add Transgender, gays and criminals as well. I'm sure some people will be surprised to hear that I would not put the mentally ill in this category. Reason being is that there are some very clear benefits to being mentally ill such as a creative mind. If van gogh was under a system that limits a creative mind we would never have the art he was able to produce with his mind.

 

[Interdimensionist]

Not sure what you mean about a starving thief.

Just a stupid analogy about most problems having deeper roots than what meets the eye, so society in general would look at the thief and think ah, criminal = bad when they should really be asking why they have so many people starving and turning to crime in the first place, not a very apt one but I'm tired and don't really give a crap.

Basically I was trying to say that you can cut off the thief's hands (kill all sexual predators) but at the end of the day you're still gonna have a whole load of thieves running around, it does nothing to solve the larger issue at hand; excuse the shitty pun, which in this case would be why are pedophile's brains wired up to be attracted to kids in the first place and what can we do to change it?

Grayman brought up the point that progress is being made in this area already but this is still only after the fact, our goal is prevention like in The Minority Report.

 

[QuickTwist]

Just a stupid analogy about most problems having deeper roots than what meets the eye, so society in general would look at the thief and think ah, criminal = bad when they should really be asking why they have so many people starving and turning to crime in the first place, not a very apt one but I'm tired and don't really give a crap.

Basically I was trying to say that you can cut off the thief's hands (kill all sexual predators) but at the end of the day you're still gonna have a whole load of thieves running around, it does nothing to solve the larger issue at hand; excuse the shitty pun, which in this case would be why are pedophile's brains wired up to be attracted to kids in the first place and what can we do to change it?

Grayman brought up the point that progress is being made in this area already but this is still only after the fact, our goal is prevention like in The Minority Report.

Now, you.. you I like.

 

[Reluctantly]

In some cases the pedophile is only attracted to children. Could you expect them to be abstinent their whole life? Could you do it? They cannot even look at porn that they enjoy without going to jail for it. How long do you think most people can do that?

The one's that actually see a moral problem with them abusing children will abstain...and supposedly do - http://www.spiegel.de/international...te-my-desires-they-make-me-sick-a-441199.html. But honestly it's not much different than having a sexual fetish or fantasy and choosing not to indulge it. Maybe it's children that really excite them, but it doesn't mean that's all they are limited to or that they have to do it. Some things are better left as fantasies anyway.

Basically I was trying to say that you can cut off the thief's hands (kill all sexual predators) but at the end of the day you're still gonna have a whole load of thieves running around, it does nothing to solve the larger issue at hand; excuse the shitty pun, which in this case would be why are pedophile's brains wired up to be attracted to kids in the first place and what can we do to change it?

Who knows. Some argue mental illness, others nature, and others argue it's all nurture or some combination of all those. Would be nice if hard science could get some answers on things like this.

Grayman brought up the point that progress is being made in this area already but this is still only after the fact, our goal is prevention like in The Minority Report.

Well...Minority Report punished people for crimes that they didn't yet commit. If you charge someone based on something that doesn't end up happening (because you isolated them in a prison or through death), their crime technically never happened. But maybe you just meant prevention in general.

Honestly though, the pedophiles that see sex with children as wrong aren't a problem unless you try to hurt them; in which case, they have every right to defend themselves.
But it's the one's that see nothing wrong with it; you can't single them out because, knowing they will get punished, they will lie, hide, and misrepresent themselves...so, what do you do about those pedophiles?

 

[Reluctantly]

I wouldn't stop at pedofiles though. I'd add Transgender, gays and criminals as well.

Careful Hitler. Last time you fought everyone at once, you lost.

 

[Interdimensionist]

But it's the one's that see nothing wrong with it; you can't single them out because, knowing they will get punished, they will lie, hide, and misrepresent themselves...so, what do you do about those pedophiles?

Fuck it let's just kill them all mwhahaha.

 

[Nofriends]

Keep in mind that your acquaintance's exaggerated reaction is very likely the consequence of being a victim of child abuse, or being close to someone who was.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Nofriends]

I wouldn't stop at pedofiles though. I'd add Transgender, gays and criminals as well. I'm sure some people will be surprised to hear that I would not put the mentally ill in this category. Reason being is that there are some very clear benefits to being mentally ill such as a creative mind. If van gogh was under a system that limits a creative mind we would never have the art he was able to produce with his mind.

Well said, transgenders are fucked up pieces of shit, and now they are glorifying transgenderism as a mean of indoctrinating and corrupting the millennials, the same can be said for those bisexual and homosexual scum. lol jk, but seriously these ppl need to stop glorifying a mental illness with primitive events like the mardi gras.

 

[Nofriends]

Careful Hitler. Last time you fought everyone at once, you lost.

I wonder why, probably because you parade the forums with other rabid SJW zealots

 

[Hadoblado]

I explained to him in a very clear way that I in no way consider their actions justifiable, only that I don't think taking the easy solution (kill 'em all) actually solves anything as people who commit such crimes will continue to exist in society and all we would effectively be doing is doling out punishment after the fact and seeking revenge for an action already in the past when it would be far more beneficial to society as a whole if we could prevent this sort of behavior from occurring in the first place.

it solves the problem that is the actual pedophile in question. Killing a single pedo won't kill all pedos, but neither will imprisoning a single pedo imprison all pedos. It's not all about punishment, it's about prevention.

You phrase is as a false dichotomy. We can either kill the jews, or we can experiment on them. But as my good friend Quicktwistler here knows well, you can do both! There is diminishing returns for the number of pedophiles we have in custody to do research on. We don't actually need to study every single one - that will cost a lot more and accomplish not much more. We can have our jew pedophile bankers and eat them too. Do the science, doubletap the rest.

On top of which, keeping someone behind bars is expensive. $100,000 annually expensive. If a pedophile has a life sentence when they're 20yo and lives until they're 70, the court has just signed away five million dollars. Meanwhile, have they preserved the sanctity of this person's life? They're in prison! Hell no. Fifty years of suffering and five million dollars later, they're dead. What was the point again? Personally I don't want my tax dollar spent making pedophiles eternally miserable.

As for whether they were being irrational: rates of molestation are quite high. It's unlikely this person hasn't experienced it or known someone adversely affected by it. It's easy to write them off as ESTJ, but it might be a real issue for them.

 

[Hadoblado]

Nofriends please don't ad hom. These discussions are already tense enough as is without you lording out calling people SJWs. There is nothing wrong with thinking it's pretty extreme to what? Kill or chemically castrate based on sexuality/gender?

You don't want to punish people for a victimless crime? SJW!

 

[Interdimensionist]

My thoughts exactly.

It would appear his girlfriend may have suffered some abuse in the past, this has never been stated explicitly by either of them but their reactions have given me that impression and thinking back to other discussions we've had I can put the pieces together and it makes sense.

Good point about only experimenting on some of them, how would we decide which to study and which to fry? Coin toss? Game of chess to the death between inmates?

Perhaps we should refrain from asking what is morally right as in an indifferent universe it is irrelevant and instead only ask what is desirable and undesirable within society, stop being such wussies and see people for what they are and discard of the broken ones.

Then again there is no universal standard on what is and isn't desirable.

 

[Sinny91]

I'd torture and kill all paedo's, even if they hadn't acted on their sexual desires.

Kids lives are more important than theirs. End of. Really.

Hopefully the punishment is harsh enough to send out the message that these deviants will not be tolerated in anyway way, shape or form. Hopefully they kill themselves.

Anyway, i think the true facts about paedophillia have been concealed. Its fucking rampant.

 

[Hadoblado]

Why would you torture someone who's committed no crime?

If they haven't acted on their desires, they're already fighting their deviant nature admirably. For the good of the children they would otherwise hurt. They're selfless and likely already miserable with all that willing denial of self. Would torture teach them a lesson they don't already understand?

 

[Reluctantly]

I wonder why, probably because you parade the forums with other rabid SJW zealots

 

[Grayman]

Why would you torture someone who's committed no crime?

Hating them for who they are instead of what they do.

Hate -> Sadism

 

[crippli]

I think you made reasonable arguments. I agree with your take on the matter.

I don't think it's easy to stop the activity, short of executing both perpetrator and victim. As one tends to become the other. Punishing crimes that have not yet happened rubs me the wrong way. Therefor stopping pedophilia is not feasible.

How this is already dealt with seems fine to me. The anger your friends is expressing against groups of people could do some research. I would think most pedophiles starts where your friend is now. Directing anger where it can not get an outlet.

 

[Interdimensionist]

I don't think it's easy to stop the activity, short of executing both perpetrator and victim. As one tends to become the other.

How this is already dealt with seems fine to me. The anger your friends is expressing against groups of people could do some research. I would think most pedophiles starts where your friend is now. Directing anger where it can not get an outlet.

That would imply some sort of daisy chain effect where the victims just repeat the cycle over and over indefinitely but when and how did that start? As in did someone just wake up one day and decide 'mmm wonder what it'd be like to have sex with a kid cos YOLO?' and it all spiralled from that one incident? I know different cultures around the world have different ideas on what is and isn't an appropriate age of consent so perhaps the root of the issue lies there?

Maybe at the end of the day there is no kink in their wiring to begin with it simply comes down to extreme sexual frustration or having been humiliated/abused as a child which in turn leads to mental illness and like you say for lack of a better outlet they turn to abuse and what easier target than children for them to prey on? Does this make pedos the same as rapists only without the balls to take on a fully grown person capable of defending themselves? I think domination, power and control are all definitely factors that would also come into play but that stuff could be linked back to childhood trauma as well, they're just reenacting scenarios only this time from a position of power where they can control the outcome.
Essentially that would mean sexual predators are conditioned by society.

Meh probably none of this, it'll all boil down to the mother, the father and the upbringing, Freud had it all sussed long ago: parents just fuck everything up.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Relevant:
http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/...chipped-castrated-in-indonesia/article/465428

if their behavior essentially comes down to some sort of neurological malfunction that could in essence be treated and eradicated like any other disease.

Which neurological malfunctions have been treated / eradicated?

I wonder why, probably because you parade the forums with other rabid SJW zealots

Obvs you are troll but it is funny that utterance of SJWarrior has become a rallying cry for heavy handed opinions and vitriol itself.

 

[Interdimensionist]

Which neurological malfunctions have been treated / eradicated?

Good point, make more manageable would have been a better way to word it and I guess this would be classed as a psychological issue rather than a neurological one to be exact.

 

[ruminator]

From an outsider's viewpoint, it seems like a good idea to study the pedophile and try to come up with a cure or whatever. Victims or anyone personally affected might have a different perspective because they were harmed by a specific person who now gets to sit in a cushy hospital and relax. It feels like the perp got away with what he did or faced no legit consequences.

I agree that there are a lot of practical issues with the DP such as wrong convictions etc, which is why I try to debate it in normative terms. It could be a good idea in theory, whether it is practical is another issue.

I don't understand why pedophiles are considered the worst of the worst, why are they worse than rapists? I see them both as equally bad.

 

[QuickTwist]

it solves the problem that is the actual pedophile in question. Killing a single pedo won't kill all pedos, but neither will imprisoning a single pedo imprison all pedos. It's not all about punishment, it's about prevention.

You phrase is as a false dichotomy. We can either kill the jews, or we can experiment on them. But as my good friend Quicktwistler here knows well, you can do both! There is diminishing returns for the number of pedophiles we have in custody to do research on. We don't actually need to study every single one - that will cost a lot more and accomplish not much more. We can have our jew pedophile bankers and eat them too. Do the science, doubletap the rest.

On top of which, keeping someone behind bars is expensive. $100,000 annually expensive. If a pedophile has a life sentence when they're 20yo and lives until they're 70, the court has just signed away five million dollars. Meanwhile, have they preserved the sanctity of this person's life? They're in prison! Hell no. Fifty years of suffering and five million dollars later, they're dead. What was the point again? Personally I don't want my tax dollar spent making pedophiles eternally miserable.

As for whether they were being irrational: rates of molestation are quite high. It's unlikely this person hasn't experienced it or known someone adversely affected by it. It's easy to write them off as ESTJ, but it might be a real issue for them.

Hey, that's not what I said. I just think we should control who has babies and who doesn't. Its that simple really.

 

[Sinny91]

Why would you torture someone who's committed no crime?

If they haven't acted on their desires, they're already fighting their deviant nature admirably. For the good of the children they would otherwise hurt. They're selfless and likely already miserable with all that willing denial of self. Would torture teach them a lesson they don't already understand?

I have zero sympathy for them. Paedophillia is a cancerous thought form. Cut it off, remove it asap.

 

[Sinny91]

Hating them for who they are instead of what they do.

Precisely.

I for one, stand by that reasoning.

I view 'middle ground' on the paedophillia issue as being weak and fickle.

Nonces are 'taken care' of in our prison system, even our other criminals cut out the cancer of society.

 

[Hadoblado]

Hey, that's not what I said. I just think we should control who has babies and who doesn't. Its that simple really.

You were very ambiguous about what you meant, but regardless, twas a joke. I was referring to hitler who both killed jews and experimented on them, a counter-example to the false dichotomy of research/kill. You had just been likened to Hitler, so there was some fuzzy overlap. Jokes dead now foreshore :P

That would imply some sort of daisy chain effect where the victims just repeat the cycle over and over indefinitely but when and how did that start? As in did someone just wake up one day and decide 'mmm wonder what it'd be like to have sex with a kid cos YOLO?' and it all spiralled from that one incident? I know different cultures around the world have different ideas on what is and isn't an appropriate age of consent so perhaps the root of the issue lies there?

The claim is that people who are molested are more likely to molest. I don't know if it's true, but it's a widespread belief (I don't know it's untrue, I just don't know). It's statistical, not absolute, and people who were not molested can also molest. The claim is not that only people who were molested can molest, and that all people who were molested become molesters. With that vampire logic the whole world would be positively pedophilic by now, since each pedophile has the opportunity to 'turn' many children.

I have zero sympathy for them. Paedophillia is a cancerous thought form. Cut it off, remove it asap.

Yes but why torture? I'm not the most sympathetic individual, but torturing neither cuts it off nor removes it, and requires a torturer. Now I'm worried I'm poking the bear here

 

[Sinny91]

Ha, you made me giggle.

Perhaps I'm just a bit of a sadist. Greyman got it, hole in one.

Well that, and the fact that think it will enhance the power/effect of the message I seek to send.