The close cousin of the INTP&INTJ: ENTP

[TimeAsylums]

**If the mods deem this worthy to be of another sub-forum, please do put it there, I wasn't entirely sure, but it is MBTI/typology**


Seeing as I've had the chance to dive into your minds (INTPf, and INTJforums) I thought I might give you an insight into my(our) minds. Although there is ENTPorg you could head over there but wouldn't find too much, everything is extremely general (Ne lol) and seemingly has a lack of much Ti.

So first I'd like to say, I too speak in generalizations most of the time. I just did it right there. We use the identifiers "most, a lot, usually, little, few" to identify to you that we are inexact (Ne), we do not need to pinpoint things and Ti them ad nauseum (INTP Ti) as much as you guys do.

INTP: Ti-Ne-Si-Fe
INTJ: Ni-Te-Fi-Se
ENTP: Ne-Ti-Fe-Si

Perhaps you have wondered (or maybe not even once, idk) what similarities we share. With the INTP we merely have two rearranged functions. With the INTJ we are simply your Extraverted opposite (more differences, none of the same functions)

In real life:
I know 2 INTJs (One mother, one friend)
and 2 INTPs (two friends)

and from gathering the information from you guys (intpf) I've learned a lot, although nothing surprising, but very very interesting.

However it seems little is said about us.

Here are a few of the profiles that resonate the most with me:

Stages of the ENTP 0-16:
http://personalitycafe.com/entp-articles/14767-development-entp-children.html

General ENTP profile, but had some interesting points(that are true), that the others didn't:
http://oddlydevelopedtypes.com/ENTP

Aside from these two, you of course have personalityjunkie and personalityprofile, but you most likely already know those.

Ah, now where to start?

Of course! The functions!

You INTPs, are familiar with the Ne (The older ones even more so, looking at your @Architect, even with your tert Si and some nice inf Fe, but I digress...damn Ne):

I have attempted to explain this to @Architect, @Duxwing actually seemed to explain it better than I could(his Ti lol). The Ne is somewhat of a "wildcard," assuming you understand Si(past related, internal body sensations, sticking with protocol, familiar) you can define Ne as the polar opposite. Just as you INTPs dominant Ti crushes and mangles your inferior Fe, our Ne leaves the Si lightyears behind. Our Ne-dom function, should first be explained by what intuition is...er, I'll leave that up to you, but it seems rather unconscious:

That is, my Ne does, whateverthehell it does. Ah, you could call the Ne the "Brainstorm" function, not analyzing (Ti) ideas, but coming up with them, however I have to put 0% effort into the Ne, it just does, being dominant and all. While some of you INTPs may think you have the dominance on aloofness, we're right in there with you, if not in front of you. You have the inferior Fe (external feelings, harmony, etc) but we have the inferior Si ("conforming"), you will indeed find many ENTPs who are unaware of many "seemingly obvious things" to other people. However, you could generalize this about all of the NTs seeing as we spend most of the time in our heads, therefore seemingly "absent minded," although you INTJs, INTPs, (sorry im not even sure Ive met any ENTJs on the forum) and us know that we are very well there, even more so than the others.

However, once a certain point hits (maturity? development of aux Ti? idk) they will become more "self-aware" and attuned to that they are indeed standing out and their tertiary Fe (harmony, external feelings) will not let them just do nothing about it as much as your INTP inferior Fe will.

I also apologize if this seems highly unstructured (Ne dom), I'll go through and edit it and try to structure it, but no guarantees.

As you know the EP's are the "purest perceivers," and open to information the longest before judging it:
http://personalityjunkie.com/03/judging-perceiving-ijs-ips/

EPs: EPs might be considered the “purest” Perceivers of all the Myers-Briggs types. Not only do they display Perceiving in their outer behavior and demeanor (e.g., open, adaptable, receptive), but their dominant function (Ne or Se) is also a Perceiving function.

From here on for a little bit I'm going to "ramble" on a bit about the ENTPs for your pleasure:

So it generally goes like this:

Ne: come up with the idea (it just does), Ti analyze that idea (obviously the function has to be developed either with maturity or age) the Fe will allow me to share that idea with people while amusing whatever social aspects need to be, and the inferior Si as I said keeps to the...er protocols (which generally the Ne doesn't allow, lol)

Quoting a bit from: http://oddlydevelopedtypes.com/ENTP

Myers et al. (1998) also described how ENTPs tend to respond to stress. One key finding was that ENTPs are the type most likely to confront their problem and also the type least likely to avoid stressful situations. They were also the third most likely type to use the coping strategies "try to think of options" and "exercise."
ENTPs were the type second least likely to talk to a professional, rely on religious beliefs, or develop physical symptoms. In addition, they were the type third least likely to use sleep as a coping mechanism.

ENTPs are not one of the types for whom leadership is an end in itself. Rather, leadership is a position that must be shouldered in order to achieve other goals--such as bringing a creative vision to pass or opening up a new market. Most ENTPs are not too interested in the people aspect of leadership; this is normal for all NTs.

I have no desire to be a leader, nor a follower, but of the two I'd more hate being a follower (Si lol), therefore if no one else steps up, I will. (only if I have to)

In general, ENTPs would rather tell people what to do than how to do it. This may be frustrating for types who like clear, detailed instructions.
Many ENTPs have voiced the sentiment, "I lead because I don't like to follow."

The pastime that ENTPs were most strongly overrepresented for was "Taking classes." This is not surprising, since all the Rationals except the ENTJs also tended to like taking classes. (None of the other temperaments even considered "taking classes" to be a leisure activity at all.) ENTPs were also the only Rationals to list "Playing sports" and "Achievement/accomplishment very important" as favorite leisure activities. Otherwise, the items they chose were typical of the NT temperament.

Interesting point I was hoping to make to @Architect, while indeed you could generalize the SPs and SJs by their body type (accurate for the most part) this indeed might come into play.

Depending on what website you use, the ENTPs are often right in line after the INTPs in terms of existence in the population. That is, if you are in say 3.3%, we are 3.5%, or something like that, but you can pull a lot of numbers from a lot of websites, so I won't claim to have the definite say.

he literature is mixed as regards the personal appearance of ENTPs. Keirsey (1998) has suggested that the NTPs as a group care little for what people think of their personal appearance and will wear things that decidedly don't fit in with what society expects them to wear; he also notes that Rationals as a whole are rather disinterested in clothes.

Interesting fact that I did not know about the INTJs, but I did about myself:

ENTPs are one of the most future oriented types, at least in terms of real world goals. Harrison and Lawrence (1985) examined personal essays written by students about their future. It turned out that ENTPs projected their lives forward a significant number of years. In fact, they were second highest in terms of number of years projected, falling just behind the INTJ Masterminds. If you want to know what's coming around the bend, just ask an ENTP.

Let's see how about some personal relations to the INTPs, we have as much disdain for you for inept leadership/rules. We hate conforming more than you do (inferior v tert fi), although you might match that just as well, so I can't say. Where as you have to analyze things, we don't have to.

I asked my INTP friends if they ever had trouble sleeping because "their head was racing," they said no, just "sometimes due to overanalyzing." So you might differentiate us like that, our Ne keeps our minds racing, I swear I can't make it stop that easily, it just does, whereas once your Ti is done analyzing it will be done. You are definitely more likely to be told that you "overthink things too much" than we are, but we do it sometimes.

Having your inferior Fe, you probably (are willing to) put up with less (people-oriented) bull-shit than we are(tert Fe).

How much more do we talk? see spoiler

http://personalityjunkie.com/10/personality-type-talkativeness-social-compatibility-relationships/ :

ENFJ (4 points)
ENTJ, INFJ, ESFJ, (3)
ENTP (2.5)
ENFP, INTJ, ISFJ, ESTJ (2)
INTP, ESTP (1.5)
ESFP, INFP, ISTJ (1)
ISTP (0.5)
ISFP (0 points)

Spoiler

In my experience, it happens EXACTLY like this. However, it is more of "N talk" vs "sensor small talk" (something I dislike, but can do out of necessity (tert fe), very much). For some reason, I have only dated introverts, I've had 7 girlfriends as of yet, and they've all been introverts. Dunno. You could make the generalization that "well, as a whole the I's are 'generally' more intelligent than the E's" (don't get all burnt up over this extreme generalization) but I have no idea. I've dated plenty of ISTPs and ISFPs, but they never complained about how much I talked, maybe they enjoyed it whereas they didn't need to talk as much idk)

As a (very interesting) side note:

However, Hart (1991) found that ENTPs frequently turned up in a high school remedial at-risk program. And another study found that they were one of the two types which most often violated a college's alcohol policy (Barrineau, 1997). The good news is that ENTP college students are among the least likely to smoke of all types (O'Toole, 1999).
Introverted types tend to do better on (solitary) aptitude tests such as SAT, ACT, and IQ tests than Extraverts. However, ENTPs seem to be the best of the Extraverts in terms of scores on aptitude tests (Myers et al., 1998). ENTPs also had the highest IQ in a sample of 133 8th graders (Mebane in McCaulley & Kainz, 1976) and a sample of 458 9th - 12th graders (McCaulley & Natter, 1974).
Despite this, a study performed over 9 years at a midsized, private undergraduate university found that ENTPs had the second lowest GPA of all types, only the ESTPs being lower (Dirienzo, Das, Synn, Kitts, & McGrath, 2010). The study also found that ENTP GPA varied by major.

The Lie Detector Type
One study found that the more like an ENTP a person is, the better they are at detecting lies (Sanchez, 2011). As Extraverts, ENTPs focus their attention on other people. As Intuitives, they notice patterns, which researchers have noted is correlated with a higher abillity to pick up on falsehoods. As Thinkers, ENTPs test how self consistent information is rather than relying on the emotional content of a message. As Perceivers, ENTPs will keep their hypotheses about truth-falsehood open longer than a Judger, allowing them to take in the maximum amount of information before settling on a decision. All of these factors, suggests Sanchez, explain why ENTPs are so good at human true or false questions.

In my experience this is overtly true, I would have stated it before, but it'd just sound like a big ego thing without any proof, I detest when people lie to me and I know. I read people extremely well and accurately. EP purest perceiver allows for the largest amount of information, tert Fe plays a slight role. Many of you (@Architect) have seen how the INFJ reads you well, whereas they have a higher Fe than we do, Mine deals with Ne-Ti. They perhaps can understand your feelings better, but I determine myself to be of high standards in "understanding" overall. (generally speaking)

^see didn't that sound so egotistical? It's hard to tell people and get an objective response which is why the quote is above to clarify it.


Now you've seen, this isn't just a writing style, it's how my brain is, it's fucking "scatter-brained" if you will.

As some side nuances/quriks:
The are "generally" two sides of me, as I've seen with my INTP friends as well
ENTP: Ne (External perceiving function) I'm extremely open to everything (not like coke and meth extreme), but I'm overly laid back
However my inner world: Ti (Introverted judging function): I over and over and over and over and over analyze things until it is perfect, however very rarely does anyone (save for extremely close people to me) see this side.
I except it is somewhat near the opposite for you INTPs
Because your dominant function is introverted Ti, you are inwardly serious, this even bleeds over to your auxilary external perceiving function sometimes. The two INTPs I know usually look like my interior self, they're so serious, but often times the Ne comes out and plays and they resemble my outerself.

Other minor interesting things:

Spoiler

Duxwing actually brought this to my attention, The S-doms get hunches due to their inferior pull of the N. It makes sense. They usually call it a "hunch or gut feeling." I've never had such a thing, however my Ne dom feels the extreme inferior pull of the Si, and if you haven't noticed, I pay some extreme attention to my own private/internal nuances (my subvocalization theory, my interest in how people think/why, etc)

So just as you INTPs inferior Fe pulls you downward sometimes, I wanted to give an example of our inferior pulls as well.

I know that this post is all-over-the-place (sorry Ne), but if you have any questions as to how an ENTP might think or react, I'm all ears!

 

[Architect]

Beautiful time slice of an ENTP mind.

Perhaps for the INTP's in the audience could you summarize to a few bullet points?

 

[TimeAsylums]

Perhaps for the INTP's in the audience could you summarize to a few bullet points?

@ProxyAmenRa/NoCat:
No.

Extreme short version:

I'll do my best, all of the following information can be found in links/quotes posted above:


- EP(PersonalityJunkie pure pereiever) "Most open-minded"

- (OddlydevelopedTypes, study referenced) "Highest IQ of the extraverts"

- (OddlydevelopedTypes, study referenced[keirsey]) "Most likely of the NT temperament to be interested in sports"

- (OddlydevelopedTypes, study referenced) "The Lie Detector Type" -@Architect, where as you mention the INFJs are great at reading people, that is predominantly in feelings (aux Fe and tert Ti) vs the ENTPs reading people "not of feelings" (Ne-Ti-Fe)

Spoiler

The Lie Detector Type
One study found that the more like an ENTP a person is, the better they are at detecting lies (Sanchez, 2011). As Extraverts, ENTPs focus their attention on other people. As Intuitives, they notice patterns, which researchers have noted is correlated with a higher abillity to pick up on falsehoods. As Thinkers, ENTPs test how self consistent information is rather than relying on the emotional content of a message. As Perceivers, ENTPs will keep their hypotheses about truth-falsehood open longer than a Judger, allowing them to take in the maximum amount of information before settling on a decision. All of these factors, suggests Sanchez, explain why ENTPs are so good at human true or false questions.

(It's even a recent study!)

- (OddlydevelopedTypes, study referenced) "Second most future oriented, behind the INTJ"

- Even though an extravert, we hate the S(vs N) small talk as much as you INTP and INTJs do. We also hate the inept/ineffective rules/leadership of others.

- We generally speak in generalizations (Ne)

- Possible stereotype "Jack of All Trades" however should be compared with ESTP, (OddlydeveloptedTypes comic joke: "ENTP, like an ESTP, except with a Ph.d")

- Most introverted(least extraverted) of the extraverts.

- ENTP stages of life (Ages 0 - 16):
http://personalitycafe.com/entp-articles/14767-development-entp-children.html

Overall this is very general, and I would heavily recommend this profile:

http://oddlydevelopedtypes.com/ENTP

 

[DelusiveNinja]

Would an ENTP would be most likely to where something out of the norm to a job interview?

They pull ideas out of no where opposed to us INTPs who are given information to pull ideas from. I think I get it now.

 

[TimeAsylums]

Would an ENTP would be most likely to wear something out of the norm to a job interview?

Without thinking: yes.

However with thinking: Hopefully (anyone) would know that this could very much jeopardize your chances of getting that job, therefore no. It might seem like a good idea for the first five minutes, and then you'll realize, wait, "what the fuck?" Obviously this applies to jobs that require that standard, not just a low level entry job.

So, grandstanding answer: perhaps - if their auxiliary Ti isn't well developed. Just thinking about doing it puts a grin on my face, but I know better.

Edit: My Ne ran off on its own, I see you asked "most likely," the direct answer to that is: yes, they are probably most likely to do such a thing.

They pull ideas out of nowhere

It even seems like that to them(us). (As far as I'm aware, same with Ni's, except mainly in images).

See (cntrl+F, find) "brainstorm" above.

 

[Cavallier]

This is a fairly accurate summary of a generalized ENTP mind and how they differ from INTPs according to my experience with them. My father is an ENTP. We both suffer from insomnia. His mind racing with possibilities of potential fixes for problems and mine endlessly mulling over details.

INTPS and ENTPS make a good team. ENTPS see the problem. They have a massive amount of energy and are dynamic enough to move beyond the planning stage. INTPS see the details. They are good at catching problems before they start. Oddly enough, they are good at keeping ENTPS grounded. However, both are very bad at follow through. Even worse, when they combine their mutual powerhouses of thinking prowess they tend to steamroll everyone around them and alienate all the other types. This is not conducive to success. I fear for the subordinates of an evil ENTP Overlord and his trusty INTP Advisor.

In my humble opinion of course.

Edit: I often got the impression that my father would draw ideas out of thin air and it was my job to validate or invalidate them according to my internal logic.

 

[TimeAsylums]

We both suffer from insomnia. His mind racing with possibilities of potential fixes for problems and mine endlessly mulling over details.

Yep. You definitely understand.

However, both are very bad at follow through. Even worse, when they combine their mutual powerhouses of thinking prowess they tend to steamroll everyone around them and alienate all the other types. This is not conducive to success. I fear for the subordinates of an evil ENTP Overlord and his trusty INTP Advisor.

ahahah. So many feels. Agreed 100%.

I often got the impression that my father would draw ideas out of thin air and it was my job to validate or invalidate them according to my internal logic.

Exactly how the dynamic duo works.

The first personal INTP I met/knew was at my first year of college, at breakfast, lunch, and even dinner, I would endlessly spew ideas and he would analyze/shoot them down slowly one by one, but often coming to agreeing points. Definitely a good team combination minus the lack of follow-through.

Oh, and the more we went at it, the larger, the more grandiose and impractical the idea would be. ahaha.

 

[Brontosaurie]

i think Ne is: being very serious about not being serious at all.

do you agree, Time Asylums?

 

[Cherry Cola]

Thank you TimeAsylums, the ENTP is one of the types that I've had a bit of a hard time grasping. I also read the articles you linked, although I had been through most of them before this part from the personalitycafe's take stuck out:

"There is a pivotal scene in the popular Disney movie Beauty and the Beast in which Belle nearly destroys an important rose, which is normally kept protected in a glass case. The Beast catches her just as her hand is reaching for the rose. He roars at her, 'Don't you know what you could have done?' It is a moment of high tension, and it was four-year-old Tory's favorite part. He loved to hear it read, watch it again and again on video, or act it out with great emotion and energy."

That's the one scene I always felt bad watching, the anger in that scene was much too intense for me to handle. This example really resonated with me for some reason. My own favourite scene was when the beast fought the wolves, that would often get me crying or on the verge of tears, because it was sad, but also because it was so beautiful just as sympathy, understanding, and respect for the beast has skyrocketed, he collapses from exhaustion. Belle's priorities are changed for life after this profound event. Fuck I got watery eyes just by remembering it. Anyway what I was thinking about it was that INFJ's and ENTP's thrive off of different kinds of emotional intensity. The anger of the rose scene is like sandpaper clothing wrapped tight around me, very uncomfortable, whereas the sadness of the beasts battle to protect Belle strikes a chord deep within me.

Recently I've been reading M/T by Kenzaburo Oe, the letters stand for Mother and Trickster as I was reading I thought "god this man must've read about Jungian archetypes", and sure enough a quick look at his wiki page confirmed it. In the book he identifies pairs of mother and trickster; two polarities working together in the mythological stories surrounding his home village's history, which his grandmother verbally relayed to him in detail during his childhood. The little details in the stories change, and there are several different versions that do not go together; however, the mother and trickster remain the pair that bring the village through times of hardship. With nurturing and ingeniousness respectively.

He also recognizes the same phenomena in mythologies of other cultures around the world. The thing is that the tricksters he describes seem to fit the ENTP bill almost uncannily well, and the particular kind of trickster he describes seems to be the so called native American trickster. If you cba, I was wondering how you feel about it, does it fit?

Also I am in a hypomanic mood and I write too much and too long without getting to the point atm so you don't really need to bother answering this crap.

 

[TimeAsylums]

i think Ne is: being very serious about not being serious at all.

Wow. Not bad at all Bronto. Yes, and here's a little bit on why:

Ne = not being serious at all
but it's the inferior Si that makes it serious about not being serious at all
PersonalityJunkie made a joke that ENTPs hate conforming because they hate their inferior Si.

Make sense?

 

[TimeAsylums]

Anyway what I was thinking about it was that INFJ's and ENTP's thrive off of different kinds of emotional intensity.

This. I could not agree more.

The thing is that the tricksters he describes seem to fit the ENTP bill almost uncannily well, and the particular kind of trickster he describes seems to be the so called native American trickster. If you cba, I was wondering how you feel about it, does it fit?

If you look at other people who have attempted to create systems similar to the MBTI, read up on wiki, the trickster is indeed the ENTP. It fits the bill perfectly.

This quote I admire dearly:

There are only two people who can speak in the King's court:

The King.
And
the Jester.

I'm sure I don't necessarily need to explain why.

God you INFJs can be insightful, essentially you're ENTPs, with the middle functions mixed up a bit. But yes, I agree with just about everything you said.
I really do admire (even with a tert Fe) people's emotions, they're so beautiful.

I don't often admit it but ENTPs do play "games." However, they're very much "NT" games, I hold every single little bit of data in my head, And according to the study above, second most future oriented behind the INTJ, I see the pieces moving)

I call it: "Social Chess"

 

[TimeAsylums]

The pull of the Si inferior (ENTP/ENFP):
(The (in)stability challenge)

You INTPs seem to have a very well grasp (well, more than a grasp) on understanding your inferior, and to that I applaud you. (ISTPs as well I suppose, Ti--Fe), so that makes them "similar enough"

Now, I'm going to tell you in-depth about our (ENTP, Ne--Si, ENFP), This will mostly go on about the ENTP (seeing as I am one), but should be relational to the ENFP, the ENFP is to the ENTP what the ISTP is to the INTP, sharing dominant and inferior functions.

Jung called the Ne-dom personality a (stereotypical) woman.
So just a heads up, I'm going to put this stereotype into a quote here, so just keep in mind i know it's just a stereotype

Basically, you know how some people will say about women "God! They change their emotions moment after moment! You were just happy like FIVE SECONDS AGO! Why are you all frustrated now?! Or, you were just happy the past few days, why are you mad/sad/anything all of a sudden?!?

What I'm getting at is the constant flux of mind.

Perhaps a little info first:

(this is simplified, but go with it)
Ne: Constant, change, instability, possibility
Si: inconstant, unchanging, conforming, stability

Take like two seconds just to consider the Ne dom and inferior Si possibilities.

The "stereotypical" woman quote I just made above, fits the ENFP - it deals more with Feeling and emotions.
But then you ask, where does that leave the ENTP? - it deals more with mental/thinking stability as opposed to emotions.

For example (more stereotypes):
ENFP woman was just happy about seeing a cute dog, she's all joyous, two minutes later she's sobbing(for some unnamed reason)
ENTP guy was just thinking about the positives of...uh..the republican party? a few hours later he's more of a Democrat.

These are reallly really bad examples, so maybe I'll get personal.

The Ne constantly changes us in unexpected ways, the ENFP feels the flux of emotion more (Aux Fe, tert Ti), while the ENTP feels the flux of..."mental status" more (aux Ti, tert Fe).

Perhaps I should explain it juxtaposted to SP(Si dom specifically), society gives you the influence that "Character/personality" is for the most part, constant, and changes over time due to experience and etc, that is, most people are "constant in their personality."
This is not so for the ENxP.

Personal:

60 minutes ago: I decided to go shop for clothes
55 minutes ago: I decided, nah
45 minutes ago: I went to the mall
30 minutes ago: I saw cool stuff, picked out a few clothes
25 minutes ago: I tried them on thought they looked cool
24 minutes ago: I decided they actually looked bad
15 minutes ago: I decided to come home and write a post on the pull of the inferior Si

My mind changes so constantly, but it doesn't often affect emotion, where as with an ENFP their emotions might change so constantly, but not necessarily their point of view.

I might have mentioned I've had 7 girlfriends, sometimes the Si is like "ooh, you should settle down" and then Ne comes back to conscious and is like "wtf, no."

The Ne gets you interested in things in the snap of a finger, but also loses interest at the same speed.


Please (important) note:

Fe = external harmony, harmony of people you care/know, external feelings
as opposed to
Fi = true internal feelings, how you feel about the things, they're..."legitimate and ...real"

So the flux of the ENFP might be rather, uh "external harmony/differentiation flux" as opposed to someone with an inferior Fi flux of "true emotion, all over the place"

I hope this helps a little for some of you.

 

[Chad]

Extreme short version:
Overall this is very general, and I would heavily recommend this profile:

http://oddlydevelopedtypes.com/ENTP

I've been mauling around the idea of rather I am INTP or ENTP. However, the more I read about ENTP the more I believe that I am one. It weird because I do identify myself with being introverted just not as introverted as some others.

 

[r4ch3l]

The pull of the Si inferior (ENTP/ENFP):
(The (in)stability challenge)

The Ne constantly changes us in unexpected ways, the ENFP feels the flux of emotion more (Aux Fe, tert Ti), while the ENTP feels the flux of..."mental status" more (aux Ti, tert Fe).

Perhaps I should explain it juxtaposted to SP(Si dom specifically), society gives you the influence that "Character/personality" is for the most part, constant, and changes over time due to experience and etc, that is, most people are "constant in their personality."
This is not so for the ENxP.

My mind changes so constantly, but it doesn't often affect emotion, where as with an ENFP their emotions might change so constantly, but not necessarily their point of view.

I might have mentioned I've had 7 girlfriends, sometimes the Si is like "ooh, you should settle down" and then Ne comes back to conscious and is like "wtf, no."

The Ne gets you interested in things in the snap of a finger, but also loses interest at the same speed.

Fascinating.
Especially like the bit about changes in mentation/opinion but not emotion vs. ENFPs changing emotional states rapidly.

And yes, you guys both seem like the quintessential bachelors because you're so indecisive and always looking for the next change of state (resulting in a very forward-looking personality). I love ENxPs because they remind me of mischievous 9 year old boys who never really grew up. It's a blast to hang out with them because they are down with both a good brainstorm and a good adventure. But as a boyfriend? I get tired just thinking about it.

 

[TimeAsylums]

mischievous 9 year old boys who never really grew up.

Meh, girls tell me "its cute," but I can't help feel immature, being related to a 9 year old in a metaphor.


In the depths of the mind of the ENTP:
Anyway, Personal nuances of mine (ENTP)

It is fair to note to you that I am only 19, so if you wish to see a more "mature" ENTP I suppose you could look to @TheHabitatDoctor, very much definitely an ENTP, and 6 years my senior, however we have no such person like @Architect for you INTPs.

Some quotes from:

http://personalitycafe.com/entp-articles/14767-development-entp-children.html

Usually, the higher the level of challenge, the better the chances that the ENTP will be interested in the pursuit. However, because ENTPs want to be the best at everything they do, they may also be unwilling to even try an activity if they can't be a star.

As you may know, my boredom/excitability threshold is extremely low. This means two things.

1. I get bored and excited extremely easy.
2. I'm an All in, or all out type of person

Like the quote says, I'm not going to do something unless I can be the very fucking best. I will not show this externally (Ne), but I'll keep it to myself (Ti) and relentlessly hold myself up to the standard. If you read previous posts on this thread, my outer self is over-extremely lackadaisical (Ne), to the point of people wondering whether I often have any intelligence at all, and my internal world (Ti) is massively complex. I'm either going to see something through to the very very end, or I'm not going to do it at all
Some personal examples

IF I'm going to mow the lawn, it's going to be fucking perfect.

IF I'm going to clean my room, I'll do it straight for an hour. I'll be anal retentive about it. Some site said that ENTPs prefer to do their work in bursts of creative strength/intellect then relax, this is true.

IF I'm going to date a girl, I'm going to DATE THE FUCK OUT OF HER, I'm going to make sure she's happ 24/7 whether she wants to be or not, if I don't see worth in it, I won't do it.

IF I'm going to do my homework/a project, I'm going to make it the fucking best

their casual and sometimes careless attitude. They frequently act as though any request is a major imposition and walk around with an attitude that says, 'Yeah, yeah, I'll get to it.' They tend to put things off until the very last minute, when the impending deadline gives them the energy to make something happen. They rarely are discouraged by roadblocks and can come up with terribly clever ways to get around obstacles.

I couldn't say it better. I am an extreme procrastinator, high school only helped me attribute to this, in every grade, in every class, I knew I could procrastinate to the last minute and still receive a 100/A by bullshitting it, that is the rules of "rote memorization and regurgitation" are pretty much all there is to high school. As you may have noticed ENTPs are at risk for having the 2nd lowest GPAs of all types, why? Because we over-estimate/over-extend ourselves, we let the pressure/stress build until it is literally insurmountable. However I graduated highschool with honors and what not, all my friends were like "wait, aren't you the class clown?" It was hilarious. Being the 2nd most forward thinking type, I knew that it would affect my future, so i had to do some-what well. Into college, my grades have fallen to barely-A's, but they're still A's.

If you read INFJs/@Cherry Cola's post, the ENTP is the jester/trickster. I love playing "social chess." <----This is probably why most profiles say the ENTPs "mature (emotionally) very late."

I enjoy playing the fool oh so very much, fooling everyone, making them think I am actually the biggest fool of them all, while watching from behind, making them my marionettes.

Tonight, I was having a few beers with two of my friends, Types undetermined but one INxP and one ISxP, the INxP, feeling oh so wise went around and stated our "roles" in the group, he called the ISxP, a casual observer, pointing out things once in awhile, he called himself....er something interesting, but he didn't talk about me, I asked him, he called me...wait for it..."The Jester." I shit you not. However, he knows of my actual intellectual side (I choose who to reveal it to).

So yes, many of the young ENTPs you meet will probably fulfill the Jester role very much, I can not say for older ones, but if you do know, please speak up, but the Jester does have to have some flick of intelligence in order to be a puppetmaster. The Jester does not make fart jokes, he sees the irony and basks in it.

And, you might ask, what is the end game of the "Social Chess?" I can't really speak for all ENTPs here, but as one profile suggested, thanks to the ENTPs tert Fe, it's actually harmony. I agree with this very much. I do not necessarily see myself as the King on the chessboard whatsoever, I am a piece like anybody else, I am essentially a tool, and all of these tools/pieces must be used in the most effective way so that nobody gets a bad hand. I don't see people as "inferior pawns" or "upper echelon queens." I want fairness and equality indeed, and my Ne-Ti is a means to achieve it. (cntrl+f/find, if you haven't read already "Lie detector type") <- It's true. I know.

I love pushing the envelope, I think that's the saying. If people are "uncomfortable" with an idea/anything, I will slowly push them into it, to make them see it isn't that bad. (I don't do it for the fun, even though it is fun, I do it for the outcome of that person.) I am referring to their pre/mis/conceptions of either ideas or physicality. A bit general...but that's what I do.

Ah, one other intersting tid-bit. I don't "actively" attempt to try to hide my Jester exterior(Ne) from my Ti intellect interior, it seemingly naturally separates as so, I imagine becoming a "whole, natural fluid person" deals with becoming individuated, that speaks for us all.

But like I said, all of this information should be relatively objectively true, but do take my age into consideration.



Last thought:

I don't often(rarely) reveal to my friends my game of "social chess" as most of them 1. Wouldn't understand, and 2. Ask "why", my only response to this question would be that of a Jester..."It's fun (and menial life is boring)."

tl;dr/summed up: I create complex systems in my head because the physical aspect(S) side of life too often bores me, however I can deal with them.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Bah my cousin is a friggin ENTP, there can be no doubt after this thread. He came up as INTP on the test but who cares, his behavior... yeah it's just what you've been describing. He's a bit down to earth.. which can make him seem like an S-type before you get to know him well. However once you do you start catching onto the fact that there's a million things going on in his head.

I remember when he showed up to help my dad move - although typically lazy and procrastinating - his energy was inexhaustible, he could go on forever at 100mph lifting stuff, figuring out how to get as much furniture as possible into the truck, and all the while actively socializing with EVERYONE (although not at the same time) who was there. When everyone else was getting tired he was showing no signs whatsoever of being exhausted.

That and he has all the other typical characteristics you listed :O

 

[TimeAsylums]

He came up as INTP on the test but who cares

There isn't enough information for me here to clarify or add-on, but it doesn't show any signs of not being an ENTP.
Also, I thought I was an INTP for 1 whole month. Do remember we have ALL the same functions, and ENTPs are the least extraverted of the Introverts. I took about 10 tests to make sure I was an INTP, 9/10 of those tests came out as INTP, but one as ENTP. took me a gooddamn month to figure it out.

He's a bit down to earth.. which can make him seem like an S-type before you get to know him well. However once you do you start catching onto the fact that there's a million things going on in his head.

The Ne IMO is unpredictable (look at study quoted above, ENTP most likely of the NTs to be interested in sports) the Ne is just drawn to what it is drawn to.

I remember when he showed up to help my dad move - although typically lazy and procrastinating - his energy was inexhaustible, he could go on forever at 100mph lifting stuff, figuring out how to get as much furniture as possible into the truck, and all the while actively socializing with EVERYONE (although not at the same time) who was there. When everyone else was getting tired he was showing no signs whatsoever of being exhausted.

Sounds (like I said, general, but) good to me.

*sort of* ironic, even though ENTPs being so massively introverted compared to the other extraverts, they often have (as @Architect pointed out) a "troop" or "group" of friends (who are "theirs".) Hitler being able to raise a whole nation being thought of...(Not ENTP, but still, an example)

Also, I would use "Down to earth" to describe myself, a better opposer would be "S fine-combing through data" I would much prefer to "sift/skim." (Preference towards general > specific)


To the onlookers:

While the ENTP is often called the "Visionary/Inventor"
a more fitting title is indeed, the less used "Originator."
The inferior Si(stability) and Ne-dom(Perpetual), you'll hear the ENTP voice "I can be whatever I want to be" (obviously within reason, we don't too often (IMO) over-estimate our skills or future potential)

http://oddlydevelopedtypes.com/entp_survival :

ENTPs defy classification; like anti-social Schroedinger's cats, they cannot be herded into neat boxes.

 

[axemblack]

@ ENTPontificator - "Flippant", there we go. That's the word I was looking for a week earlier or so when I used "playfully snarky" (bit of an oxymoron, but almost synonymous with what I wanted to say).

I would recommend trying to avoid "INxP" or "ISxP" and similar labels, as it's more misleading than helpful. N,S,T,F labels don't actually say much of anything, as it is only the functions themselves that aid in practical understanding of the system. There is a world of difference between INTPs and INFPs, but "INxP" would seem to suggest they are only a short skip away.

When you're typing someone try to focus on identifying specific functions and their heirarchy in the stack, otherwise you might call up your "ISxP" friend when your car is broken down on the side of the road, only to find out that you got the ISFP who loves driving fast cars, and not the ISTP who loves fixing cars.

Also your "Social Chess" game might not be as opaque as you think lol. I noticed my ENTP friend playing this game with his group after a few observations, and he does this with every group of which he's a part.

 

[TimeAsylums]

@ ENTPontificator - "Flippant", snarky"

sums it up well. Personally I prefer Each New Thought Propels, as P(ontificate) can be applied to any P therein, but playfully snarky indeed, and flippant with good reason.

I would recommend trying to avoid "INxP" or "ISxP" and similar labels

my main interest wasn't typing them in that situation, or talking about them , merely details to add to the overall story. I have better typing methods, such as you mentioned, but I did not desire to go into so much detail as "friend one, additional irrelevant details etc."

Also your "Social Chess" game might not be as opaque as you think lol. I noticed my ENTP friend playing this game with his group after a few observations, and he does this with every group of which he's a part.

Never said it wasn't "noticeable." Wouldn't be overly surprised (actually at all) if one observed/noticed, would actually be somewhat-joyous, it puts you(me) back in your place and keeps the ego in check.

But, more importantly: What fun is a play without an audience?


In addition to, it seems you're quite the "old-ish" member, rarely posts, must think a lot before you do, I appreciate(value) your input.

 

[Architect]

But, more importantly: What fun is a play without an audience?

Audiences are dangerous, just like servants who you end up serving as much as they serve you. In this case an audience defines you, whether you like it or not. Of course if you're an E, or especially an ENTP you need an audience, so in danger, reward. Additionally ENTPs probably benefit from the symbiotic relationship, they need definition, whereas INTPs need to be free from that. This is why every ENTP I've known has an entourage.

ENTPs defy classification; like anti-social Schroedinger's cats, they cannot be herded into neat boxes.

Which is as much of a classification as any. You probably display your type most clearly of anybody on this forum, a characteristic I've seen with every ENTP I've known. There's never any ambiguity typing an ENTP. Whereas INP's are slippery eels, harder to pin down.

Readers seeking tangible examples of Ne might take time to observe ENPs, for whom Ne is dominant. ENPs often live a frenetic lifestyle, equipped with more hobbies and interests than they know what to do with. They are always on the go, always excited to try new things, and rarely content to perform any single activity for an extended period. Since they are always searching for new potentials and possibilities in every situation, they can seem easily distracted and have difficulty focusing.

 

[TimeAsylums]

Audiences are dangerous, just like servants who you end up serving as much as they serve you. In this case an audience defines you, whether you like it or not. Of course if you're an E, or especially an ENTP you need an audience, so in danger, reward. Additionally ENTPs probably benefit from the symbiotic relationship, they need definition, whereas INTPs need to be free from that. This is why every ENTP I've known has an entourage.

Oh, just how right you are architect, I am nothing without an audience, I am beyond boredom. I'm glad you recognize it just as much as I do, and understand it is not just a desire, it is a need . The worst case scenario isn't that people find out, it's that they quit playing. I'm so happy when spinning webs, but I need them to be seen, hence (oddlydevelopedtypes) the ENTPs flair for the dramatic.

Which is as much of a classification as any. You probably display your type most clearly of anybody on this forum, a characteristic I've seen with every ENTP I've known. There's never any ambiguity typing an ENTP. Whereas INP's are slippery eels, harder to pin down.

Right again. I hope to meet an ENTP irl and personally soon, would be quite a lovely showdown...the introverts only play so much

Hopefully I am at least offering you some insight

Oh and as to your final quote, that's why they're: jack of all trades. Master of (probably only) n(one or two)

 

[Architect]

I hope to meet an ENTP irl and personally soon, would be quite a lovely showdown...the introverts only play so much

In real life ENTP's and INTP's don't play well together. Invariably the INTP's get frustrated and angry and the innocent ENTPs are puzzled and maybe hurt by the INTP anger. The dynamic is that ENTP's are rather demanding on people around them - like all extroverts. In this case the demands tend to drive too much into the INTP demesnes, thus become considered a violation and a psychic drain. When confronted with this INTP's strike out angrily from a position of drained weakness - "can't you leave me alone?"

Unfortunate but true. Two ENTP's together would be entertaining however

Hopefully I am at least offering you some insight

Everything is food for the analysis engine.

 

[TimeAsylums]

In real life ENTP's and INTP's don't play well together. Invariably the INTP's get frustrated and angry and the innocent ENTPs are puzzled and maybe hurt by the INTP anger. The dynamic is that ENTP's are rather demanding on people around them - like all extroverts. In this case the demands tend to drive too much into the INTP demesnes, thus become considered a violation and a psychic drain. When confronted with this INTP's strike out angrily from a position of drained weakness - "can't you leave me alone?"

Well, my best friend first yr of college was INTP, but yes I'm sure after a prolonged period it probably would come to this. I don't get hurt by their anger because I understand it. (My, or any NTs, power is of knowledge, speaking of something random: I was thinking the INTP has better logic skills, obv Ti, but the Ns "might" have better reasoning skills. That's just out of the blue so nothing serious.) anyway, most of the friends (80%+) I end up making are introverts, I know i drain them, but I like to think they love me anyway, never heard him (INTP) say it to me verbally amyway, either he always got away in time after awhile, or I knew his balance.

My tert feels don't often get hurt, as long as the data is analyzable and coherent and understandable. I definitely encroach on people's boundaries all the time, hence (a lot of profiles) "ENTP has trouble maintaining correct psychological distance" but also would be good to remember that "relationships with ENTPs develop at the rate of the Other personality type" - I "usually" know what's going on, so it helps.

Everything is food for the analysis engine.

Oh god @Archie, spending too much time around this Ne-dom

Also, sorry about typos, typing on an iPad in ATL airport, longest layover of my life.

 

[r4ch3l]

Meh, girls tell me "its cute," but I can't help feel immature, being related to a 9 year old in a metaphor.

As you may know, my boredom/excitability threshold is extremely low. This means two things.

1. I get bored and excited extremely easy.
2. I'm an All in, or all out type of person

So yes, many of the young ENTPs you meet will probably fulfill the Jester role very much, I can not say for older ones, but if you do know, please speak up, but the Jester does have to have some flick of intelligence in order to be a puppetmaster. The Jester does not make fart jokes, he sees the irony and basks in it.

Oh, yes. The only 100% ENTP person I knew was in his late 30s/early 40s and very much a jester/trickster type. He still reminded me of a 9 year old, but only because of his ENTHUSIASM and in-the-momentness. Nothing could get the dude down or offend him. He ran a successful music label, invented a greenhouse for sustainable farming that could work in the coldest temperatures, and had a bunch of other side ventures. Drove some kind of British safari-mobile and had a a dog he took everywhere. Always some new hot, smart, younger girl he thought he was in love with that lived across the country. Inevitably 9 months later there was a new one.

I have two other suspected ENTPs, but this one actually had taken the test and exhibited the characteristics completely. The other ENTPs were similar: always looked younger than they were, seemed like massive goofballs/hedonists but then you find out they're taking courses at UC Berkeley or BCIT "just for fun" despite never having attended college with the intention of getting a degree and have all these wildly successful side projects.

You probably display your type most clearly of anybody on this forum, a characteristic I've seen with every ENTP I've known. There's never any ambiguity typing an ENTP.

lol this is why I
O_o
whenever someone on this forum who thinks or thought they were an INTP suddenly is questioning if they are an ENTP. NAH. You'd know. Trust me. It may be just one letter but we are sooooo different.

In real life ENTP's and INTP's don't play well together. Invariably the INTP's get frustrated and angry and the innocent ENTPs are puzzled and maybe hurt by the INTP anger. The dynamic is that ENTP's are rather demanding on people around them - like all extroverts. In this case the demands tend to drive too much into the INTP demesnes, thus become considered a violation and a psychic drain. When confronted with this INTP's strike out angrily from a position of drained weakness - "can't you leave me alone?"

Yep. I think also the "social chess" TimeAsylums spoke of is very counter to what INTPs are all about (being catlike and giving people their freedom; bluntness to the point of rudeness vs. always performing). I know that before I understood that the ENTPs I know have very pure hearts and are not actually trying to mess with or hurt anyone (for the most part) I was suspicious of them because I saw them doing this, and because I am wary of anyone who is putting on such a big show all. the. time.

I've a few ENTP & INTJ friendships that are very strong. They both like doing things THE BEST and one-up each other in these friendly competitions. It's hilarious.

 

[TimeAsylums]

always looked younger than they were, seemed like massive goofballs/hedonists but then you find out they're taking courses at UC Berkeley or BCIT "just for fun" despite never having attended college with the intention of getting a degree and have all these wildly successful side projects.

Tee-hee

lol this is why I
O_o
whenever someone on this forum who thinks or thought they were an INTP suddenly is questioning if they are an ENTP. NAH. You'd know. Trust me. It may be just one letter but we are sooooo different.

Agreed. I did think I was an INTP for a month, but once I realized I wasn't, it was clear as day, I was like "wtf?"

know that before I understood that the ENTPs I know have very pure hearts and are not actually trying to mess with or hurt anyone (for the most part lol)

heheh oh you

I was suspicious of them because I saw them doing this, and because I am wary of anyone who is putting on such a big show all. the. time.

meh I wouldn't describe it as putting on a big show, although it is possible, IMO the big show is taking place in my head. I'm not saying its impossible for people to observe/notice it (like in a earlier post) it's just that the audience I choose to let see vs the people on my board are chosen for a reason, I determine the audience will more likely understand/enjoy it.

I've a few ENTP & INTJ friendships that are very strong. They both like doing things THE BEST and one-up each other in these friendly competitions. It's hilarious.

There is one thing I never understood about the ENTP profile, and that's the "they love to one-up people" that's the only thing that doesn't fit, IMO. Maybe I'm looking at it in a wrong way?

Oh and I GUESS I should add, just for fun, when I did drag the INTP out into social situations, he very much knew he was being manipulated, like me trying to set him up with a girl or something, he would say "you're planning something, aren't you?" I would grin, he would smile back, but he went along with it (most of the time.) I suppose he saw(through) my plans and liked them, if I had to guess its just probably because I was more social, but just a guess.

Tbh, where an INTJ might be fine operating entirely in the background without an audience, I very much need an audience to see my play, so as much as I "could" operate in the background, it's not nearly as fun for me, I think this phrase comes to mind "secrets are no fun if no one knows." Heh, first future seeing type (INTJ) vs second right behind em ENTP, but they don't need an audience...dangerous. My mother comes to mind (INTJ) I see all her ploys...

 

[scorpiomover]

However it seems little is said about us.

Probably a lot is said on the ENTP forums.

however I have to put 0% effort into the Ne, it just does, being dominant and all.

It was ENTPs on entp.org, that pointed out to me how the dominant function is "on" all the time, and almost never switches off. Later confirmed by threads here about how Ti-dom INTPs never stop thinking.

Quote: Myers et al. (1998) also described how ENTPs tend to respond to stress. One key finding was that ENTPs are the type most likely to confront their problem

Noticed this myself. Most likely to say they try to face their fears.

I asked my INTP friends if they ever had trouble sleeping because "their head was racing," they said no, just "sometimes due to overanalyzing."

Different form of racing. With an Ne-dom, it's likely to be racing because of all the ideas his mind is coming up with. With a Ti-dom, it's likely to be racing with all the inconsistencies and questions his mind throws up.

whereas once your Ti is done analyzing it will be done.

Ti is done when everything in the entire universe is explained perfectly according to a single theory. If that ever happens, science, and all understanding, is complete. According to Gödel's incompleteness theorems, this will never happen.

You are definitely more likely to be told that you "overthink things too much" than we are,

Heard that so often, you could put my photo next to the word "over-thinking" in the dictionary, and everyone who knows me IRL, would probably say "a perfect description".

The Lie Detector Type
One study found that the more like an ENTP a person is, the better they are at detecting lies (Sanchez, 2011). As Extraverts, ENTPs focus their attention on other people. As Intuitives, they notice patterns, which researchers have noted is correlated with a higher abillity to pick up on falsehoods. As Thinkers, ENTPs test how self consistent information is rather than relying on the emotional content of a message. As Perceivers, ENTPs will keep their hypotheses about truth-falsehood open longer than a Judger, allowing them to take in the maximum amount of information before settling on a decision. All of these factors, suggests Sanchez, explain why ENTPs are so good at human true or false questions.

In my experience this is overtly true, I would have stated it before, but it'd just sound like a big ego thing without any proof, I detest when people lie to me and I know. I read people extremely well and accurately. EP purest perceiver allows for the largest amount of information, tert Fe plays a slight role. Many of you (@Architect) have seen how the INFJ reads you well, whereas they have a higher Fe than we do, Mine deals with Ne-Ti. They perhaps can understand your feelings better, but I determine myself to be of high standards in "understanding" overall. (generally speaking)

^see didn't that sound so egotistical? It's hard to tell people and get an objective response which is why the quote is above to clarify it.

Nice, intuitive theory. But in reality, Ti isn't good at dectecting lies, because Ti takes a loooong time to process anything. ENFPs are very good at detecting lies, because Fi & Te are very good at detecting inconsistencies quickly, especially in people, and practical things like what people said.

Ti is much better at detecting generalised inconsistencies from anywhere. ENTPs are very good at noticing how people's words don't match their actions (inconsistencies from anywhere, that don't require definitive conclusions).

However my inner world:

As Jung noted, your inner world is your dominant function. Your second function is the function that helps your inner world, which in ENTPs is Ti.

I over and over and over and over and over analyze things until it is perfect, however very rarely does anyone (save for extremely close people to me) see this side.

ENTPs tend to analyse something over and over again, when they've already got an idea they want to put out there, and know that they'll get slammed unless they back it up with a solid argument. Also when they're writing a fictional novel, and realise they need to make the plot-lines and the characters' behaviour consistent.

 

[TimeAsylums]

A little on the inferior of the intj and entp:
Now that the family is all together I was able to determine everyone:
Myself entp
Mother intj
Sister istj
Father estp
Aunt (mothers sister) esfp
God what an interesting (annoying) concotion
I could make a lot of connection, but im here to talk about inferior Si and Se
As is said on personalityjunkie inferior si users may get random intense moments of internal body movements, myS stimulatioj threshold is just like what I said about my personality, all or nothing. I ddon't often notice how bad I smell or look, I usually dont know when I am hungry or have to use the bathroom, until I am really really hungry or really really have to go, serious. I imagime the intjs inf Se is similar. What brought this to my attention is always always in the car, my father and sister get hot/cold in an instant, however mother and I seem to not notice or care, assumimg inferior s = obtuse/blunted/stunted senses. My father andnsister are also sweatimg the most compared to us.

Normally you know id extrapolaye more but fuck this tablet

Sorry about typos again, tis humid in costa rica, im typig on a tablet two=interface fucking sucks fyi
Fyi@scorpio, over youre still not an intp

 

[SpiralHacker]

Great synthesis of information here.

 

[TimeAsylums]

http://www.socionics.com/prof/entp2.htm
Also, this profile is a little biased but is exteemely accuratebcheck it out^^^
Unrelated///^^///


the introverted extravert: the entp (apparently also entj, however since I know zero, forums and irl ill talk about us)

As you already know the NTs are usually cerebral/"in their heads a lot" this doesnt represent the stereotypical extravert, I talk about/to people usually on three occasians:
1 I need to share my ideas (ne-ti)
2 im interested in them/what they are talking about
3 I need something of/from them (Fe)

You can generally extrapolate those three situations to the others.
Also, on being alone vs solitude and including Ne:
You might think of the "typical/stereotypical" extravert as needing to talk/be around people, however thats more ofFe or a little less of Se and Te. I can easily be mistaken for an introvert, either when I am in my head or dissinterested in whats going on around me, Ne = interested in possibilites. Not neccessarily people related, although it CAN BE. I CAN sit at home alone for weeks BUT I have to have something to think/extrapolaye on for example mbti theory/jung. So yes I can survive solitude, I simply retreat into my head.

Again, sorry for the shorter explanation than usual, butbthis interface is giving me a headahe so thats all for tonight-timeasylums

@spiral, thamks SH I jusy made a profile om entporg hopimg to share, but if u think it is relevant please ferl free to share, not many entps here so I defnappreciate any critique/addtl analysis

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Even worse, when they combine their mutual powerhouses of thinking prowess they tend to steamroll everyone around them

Watson & Crick...

Would an ENTP would be most likely to where something out of the norm to a job interview?

Well, maybe. If they're super-confident, then... maybe, but a t-shirt and shorts sort of forces someone to focus on what we actually have to say instead of what we look like. Total bell curve.

They pull ideas out of no where opposed to us INTPs who are given information to pull ideas from. I think I get it now.

Sort of. "Out of nowhere" implies that we think like "goose... chair... bananas!" when we really sort of bounce off of Ti like a trampoline.

^Ne

Ti
Fe
Si​

"Boing... boing... boing..."

with the direction guided by Ti. Ping pong between Ti and the subject matter.

Spoiler

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

I'm not touching most of this behemoth, but...

The are "generally" two sides of me

I'd argue that this is a duality of "loops;" Ne-Fe and Ti-Si; the new "right" and "left" brain.

I'm extremely open to everything (not like coke and meth extreme)

Anything once...

I know that this post is all-over-the-place (sorry Ne), but if you have any questions as to how an ENTP might think or react, I'm all ears!

I'll join in here and there, folks. Any guesses how long it takes a thread with 2 ENTPs to derail on a random tangent?

 

[Hadoblado]

If anyone has more to add on the difference between TiNe and NeTi I'd be very interested to hear it.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Anyway what I was thinking about it was that INFJ's and ENTP's thrive off of different kinds of emotional intensity. The anger of the rose scene is like sandpaper clothing wrapped tight around me, very uncomfortable, whereas the sadness of the beasts battle to protect Belle strikes a chord deep within me.

ENTP anger is a total head high. Perception shoots through the roof.

Spoiler

Emotion is... somewhat transferable to us. Not everything makes it through, but what does (it's usually powerful), we latch onto.

The little details in the stories change, and there are several different versions that do not go together; however, the mother and trickster remain the pair that bring the village through times of hardship. With nurturing and ingeniousness respectively.

Probably unrelated, but "choose your own adventure" books are freaking badass.

The thing is that the tricksters he describes seem to fit the ENTP bill almost uncannily well, and the particular kind of trickster he describes seems to be the so called native American trickster.

If you cba, I was wondering how you feel about it, does it fit?

Not sure what cba means, but yeah, it fits perfectly if we care about something enough. It's SO MUCH EASIER for us to teach someone something using riddles and generalities (forcing them to walk a path of self-discovery) than it is to write it out or explain in depth. Honest to god I teach like Rafiki. You take a wrong step and I whack you on the head with a stick and shout "Wrong! Try again!"

Also I am in a hypomanic mood and I write too much and too long without getting to the point atm so you don't really need to bother answering this crap.

Hypomania...

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

If anyone has more to add on the difference between TiNe and NeTi I'd be very interested to hear it.

The rapid fire ping pong reference is probably the best you're going to get outta me, at least today.

Meh, girls tell me "its cute," but I can't help feel immature, being related to a 9 year old in a metaphor.

I'd personally call it a 12 year old. 9's a bit too young. And no, it never leaves lol, it just changes.

It is fair to note to you that I am only 19, so if you wish to see a more "mature" ENTP I suppose you could look to @TheHabitatDoctor, very much definitely an ENTP, and 6 years my senior, however we have no such person like @Architect for you INTPs.

Don't forget about the influx of ENTPS from the org: Just George, SpiralHacker, Back2Basics, jpc, DoubleV. Several of us in different life stages. We could construct quite a timeline...

Also, summoning doesn't work anymore, so @ does nothing. I've heard rumors of some fancy html thing that'll do it, but I have no idea how that works (lest I'd be using it).

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

In the classic British nature documentary voice: "And here we have a lurker who's been well camoflouged for nearly 4 years, with only 32 posts. Watch closely, as it provides insightful advice that may be ignored by the O.P."

Also your "Social Chess" game might not be as opaque as you think lol. I noticed my ENTP friend playing this game with his group after a few observations, and he does this with every group of which he's a part.

I'd agree that it's visible to a lot of people (~half who aren't pawns), but I've got to hammer in that the root of social chess is the recognition of our role within a division of labor, and that social norms often prevent the expression of their awareness.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Audiences are dangerous, just like servants who you end up serving as much as they serve you. In this case an audience defines you, whether you like it or not.

every ENTP I've known has an entourage.

This "dangerous" thing I have to disagree with. Audiences are a means of recruitment to accomplish things. Don't get me wrong, there is very real risk that you'll be caught up serving them if you don't outsource properly, but the audience never defines you. Well, me at least. I define the audience, and the pieces are interchangeable and replaceable.

The dynamic is that ENTP's are rather demanding on people around them - like all extroverts. When confronted with this INTP's strike out angrily from a position of drained weakness - "can't you leave me alone?"

We can be a little smothering... (Especially if the entourage is small).

I don't get hurt by their anger because I understand it.

Ditto. Let them cool off and come back, assuming they recognize your value.

"relationships with ENTPs develop at the rate of the Other personality type"

Which includes working relationships.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

http://www.socionics.com/prof/entp2.htm
Also, this profile is a little biased but is exteemely accuratebcheck it out^^^

Indeed.

lol this is why I
O_o
whenever someone on this forum who thinks or thought they were an INTP suddenly is questioning if they are an ENTP. NAH. You'd know. Trust me. It may be just one letter but we are sooooo different.

It all depends on what one's been exposed to. I thought I was an INTJ for > a year and then INTP for ~ a year.

Nice, intuitive theory. But in reality, Ti isn't good at dectecting lies, because Ti takes a loooong time to process anything. ENFPs are very good at detecting lies, because Fi & Te are very good at detecting inconsistencies quickly, especially in people, and practical things like what people said.

Ti is much better at detecting generalised inconsistencies from anywhere. ENTPs are very good at noticing how people's words don't match their actions (inconsistencies from anywhere, that don't require definitive conclusions).

I hereby challenge thee to a game of poker, any type.

Spoiler

I'll actually wager that there are different categories of lies, and that we excel in detecting one of those categories to a T.

 

[TimeAsylums]

to teach someone something using riddles and generalities (forcing them to walk a path of self-discovery) than it is to write it out or explain in depth. Honest to god I teach like Rafiki. You take a wrong step and I whack you on the head with a stick and shout "Wrong! Try again!"

Hypomania...

THIS is my life. I use social chess and this method to "teach the masses." This is why I started the do you argue, debate, or share thread, I never argue or debate, ENTPs LOVE efficiency and I hate wasting breath and energy on arguing, I merely share facts and information, and the path forms itself, it's so easy.
I knew TheHabitatDoctor would make it here eventually also hey hey don't criticize the opaqueness of my game, you didn't even read my reply! But thanks seems he posted for me while I'm on my vay-cay.

 

[scorpiomover]

Fyi@scorpio, over youre still not an intp

Dude, you can't tell what type someone is, just by making it up. You have to look at their traits to know what type they are. Moreover, whatever traits are their type, come from their genes and their neural connections. Genes don't change. Neural connections take a long time to change. Whether I'm an INTP or an INFJ or a MBZX, makes no difference. All that matters is what traits I have, and I know them, and so do you, because everyone does. They stand out a mile, good and bad.

Same for you. You are what you already are. If you discover you're an ENTP and ENTPs are human lie detectors, you won't magically gain lie-detecting abilities. Either you were a human lie detector or you weren't, for the last 10 years, and everyone knew it.

So we don't need to take your word for it. If what you are saying is true, then most posters here read your thread and thought "Oh, so TimeAsylums is a human lie detector? Whoop de-doo! I already figured that out ages ago. Anyway, I already noticed that no-one can get away with lying to ENTPs. Why on Earth is he pointing out the obvious?"

If most posters here are thinking "Oh, I never knew that. Wow! Thanks TimeAsylums." it means one of 2 things:
1) Most posters here don't actually know ANY ENTPs, which also means that no-one here is an ENTP either.
2) ENTPs never let on what they think. Then they're not extroverts.
2) ENTPs aren't human lie detectors.

Ti isn't all nice and smiles. You're thinking of another type, boyo.

 

[scorpiomover]

THIS is my life. I use social chess and this method to "teach the masses." This is why I started the do you argue, debate, or share thread, I never argue or debate, ENTPs LOVE efficiency and I hate wasting breath and energy on arguing, I merely share facts and information, and the path forms itself, it's so easy.
I knew TheHabitatDoctor would make it here eventually also hey hey don't criticize the opaqueness of my game, you didn't even read my reply! But thanks seems he posted for me while I'm on my vay-cay.

Sorry, but you're confusing ENTPs with INFJs. INFJs form Ni strategies to manipulate other people.

Anyone what to check, just go and look on the threads started by INFJs on INTJf.

 

[scorpiomover]

I hereby challenge thee to a game of poker, any type.

Crap at poker. Lost £20 first time I played. I'm just not good at people-reading games.

I'll actually wager that there are different categories of lies, and that we excel in detecting one of those categories to a T.

I did already say so. ENTPs are very good at pointing out in a funny way, when someone is bragging about having qualities that everyone knows they clearly don't have, but no-one else has the balls to call them on it.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Crap at poker. Lost £20 first time I played. I'm just not good at people-reading games.

I did already say so. ENTPs are very good at pointing out in a funny way, when someone is bragging about having qualities that everyone knows they clearly don't have, but no-one else has the balls to call them on it.

No, there's more to it than that (^that is a glaring generality). Inconsistencies are picked up on a lot sooner, but it takes time to encapsulate the situation. This allows others to catch up, but they lack the same holistic understanding.

Sorry, but you're confusing ENTPs with INFJs. INFJs form Ni strategies to manipulate other people.

Anyone what to check, just go and look on the threads started by INFJs on INTJf.

It seems that N-doms, regardless of whether Ni or Ne, are capable of extremely effective manipulation. Ni-style tends to silently make a select set of options appear very attractive to a subject whereas Ne-style sets off to cut off alternatives. NTs being predisposed to manipulate through logic and NFs through emotion.

Though they aren't mutually exclusive. Let me listen to an emotional speech while writing my own as well as a few minutes beforehand and I'll have the audience drowning in each other's tears. I assume there's a similar trigger for NFs, I just don't know what it is.

 

[scorpiomover]

No, there's more to it than that (^that is a glaring generality). Inconsistencies are picked up on a lot sooner, but it takes time to encapsulate the situation. This allows others to catch up, but they lack the same holistic understanding.

Now you're claiming that ENTPs see things using N & T, that other NTs do not. I find that laughable. When ENTPs, INTPs, INTJs and ENTJs report their cognitive function tests, they show high levels of Ni, Ne, Ti and Te. You've got as much access to N & T functions as any other NT.

Antonio Damasio's experiments show that Feelers have the advantage in real-life decisions, where lie-detecting becomes extremely important to your future success.

Sensors show a remarkable ability at practical things that intuitives seem to generally lack, in enough difference, that it's clear that when it comes to practical decisions like telling if someone is lying, Sensors have the upper hand.

It seems that N-doms, regardless of whether Ni or Ne, are capable of extremely effective manipulation. Ni-style tends to silently make a select set of options appear very attractive to a subject whereas Ne-style sets off to cut off alternatives. NTs being predisposed to manipulate through logic and NFs through emotion.

Intuitives invent new ideas to try to persuade people of things. That's one way to persuade people of things.

It works, so long as the N-dom is there to give rebuttals to objections. However, once the N-dom leaves the room, then the other person's mind comes back with the objections, and there isn't anyone else to dissuade them of the reason of their own minds. It annoys N-doms no end, how people seem to always need them around to stay on track with the N-dom's personal objectives. After a while of such manipulation, though, the other person sees it happens so often, that they are convinced of one view when the N-dom is around, but think entirely differently when he isn't, that they come to see that if they are to maintain consistency in their reasoning and their actions, that they have to give the N-dom a wide berth, and when he is around, they have to pretend to agree, but not actually consider anything he says until he's been gone for a while. Then they effectively hardly ever listen to the N-dom, even when he's making perfect sense.

It's not the only method of persuasion either.

S-doms are fantastic at describing reality through an alternative way of looking at things, that is so consistent, that one starts to doubt one's own eyes, and starts to think they they really have a point. It's why NTs raised by Sensor parents so often describe that they had a difficult childhood. The intuitive simply can't find a way to persuade either their parents to listen, and can't even find a way to persuade anyone else to get their parents to listen to them. Their Sensor parents sound too much like there is now flaw in their views to open a door to persuade them to another way.

It's also true that T-doms and F-doms are not great at direct manipulation, particularly Ti-doms and Fi-doms. They manipulate by direct and indirect action. A Te-dom or Fe-dom can simply do things that force you to deal with whatever they want you to deal with, effectively bullying you into doing what they want, which as individuals. they are known for doing. Ti-doms and Fi-doms do seemingly stupid, trivial and irrelevant actions that everyone else ignores, that set in motion a chain of events that force you into doing what they wanted you to do in the first place.

Though they aren't mutually exclusive. Let me listen to an emotional speech while writing my own as well as a few minutes beforehand and I'll have the audience drowning in each other's tears. I assume there's a similar trigger for NFs, I just don't know what it is.

I'm sure that you will. But what will the audience do when they've left the room, and gone for a coffee?

You do know that in professional and successful companies, they hardly ever make a decision on the spot, don't you?

How are you going to manipulate them, when they aren't there to be manipulated and when they are there, they'll never commit to doing what you want?

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

@TimeAsylums

http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=17153

Note the two approaches here re: type interactions and "social chess":

1. (TSR) Guided self-discovery accompanied by willingly distributed evidence, albeit occasional. Accomplishment goal: teambuilding.

2. (RB) The presentation of a decoy accompanied by mirroring as a means to expose flaws in self-perception, e.g. being forced to differentiate between degrees of Ne-Ti in the functional stack as a means to identify that one possesses neither. Accomplishment goal: respect.

Mirroring is used in both to identify what makes the other tick. Ne operates through triangulation and reflection, creating a model of "what should be if ___" to compare with incoming observations.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Now you're claiming that ENTPs see things using N & T, that other NTs do not.

The whole subjective-experiences-of-agency thing does that. Only ENTPs are Ne-Ti-Fe-Si.

I find that laughable. When ENTPs, INTPs, INTJs and ENTJs report their cognitive function tests, they show high levels of Ni, Ne, Ti and Te. You've got as much access to N & T functions as any other NT.

1. Jung disagrees
2. The validity of cognitive function tests is questionable at best.

Antonio Damasio's experiments show that Feelers have the advantage in real-life decisions, where lie-detecting becomes extremely important to your future success.

1. Link?
2. I'm predicting "real-life decisions" will be entirely subjective.
3. The relationship between lie-detecting and real-life is nebulous. I mean, we apparently haven't even defined "lie" yet.

Sensors show a remarkable ability at practical things that intuitives seem to generally lack, in enough difference, that it's clear that when it comes to practical decisions like telling if someone is lying, Sensors have the upper hand.

Again, what is "practical"?

Intuitives invent new ideas to try to persuade people of things. That's one way to persuade people of things.

You're not fully connecting the dots. Invention is not a means of persuasion. Socratic Rhetoric is.

It works, so long as the N-dom is there to give rebuttals to objections. However, once the N-dom leaves the room, then the other person's mind comes back with the objections, and there isn't anyone else to dissuade them of the reason of their own minds.

Not true. Once a given agent is persuaded to take up a side; convinced that said position is valid, they're more than happy and capable of using their own faculties to further the agenda or refine it.

It annoys N-doms no end, how people seem to always need them around to stay on track with the N-dom's personal objectives.

It's not annoying at all. That's the goal: to be needed. Being needed implies that it's important for them... Not being needed is akin to being rubbish.

After a while of such manipulation, though, the other person sees it happens so often, that they are convinced of one view when the N-dom is around, but think entirely differently when he isn't, that they come to see that if they are to maintain consistency in their reasoning and their actions, that they have to give the N-dom a wide berth, and when he is around, they have to pretend to agree, but not actually consider anything he says until he's been gone for a while. Then they effectively hardly ever listen to the N-dom, even when he's making perfect sense.

You're completely excluding the notion of a "win-win." You know, because all interactions are apparently predatory or parasitic.

S-doms are fantastic at describing reality through an alternative way of looking at things, that is so consistent, that one starts to doubt one's own eyes, and starts to think they they really have a point.

Which is why the stuff in pink is so important. Refinement is necessary. There's negotiation involved until a core of bodies believe/think/feel they share ownership.

It's why NTs raised by Sensor parents so often describe that they had a difficult childhood. The intuitive simply can't find a way to persuade either their parents to listen, and can't even find a way to persuade anyone else to get their parents to listen to them. Their Sensor parents sound too much like there is now flaw in their views to open a door to persuade them to another way.

This is due to developmental divergence, not cognitive divergence.

It's also true that T-doms and F-doms are not great at direct manipulation, particularly Ti-doms and Fi-doms. They manipulate by direct and indirect action. A Te-dom or Fe-dom can simply do things that force you to deal with whatever they want you to deal with, effectively bullying you into doing what they want, which as individuals, they are known for doing. Ti-doms and Fi-doms do seemingly stupid, trivial and irrelevant actions that everyone else ignores, that set in motion a chain of events that force you into doing what they wanted you to do in the first place.

Examples? I find myself questioning the assumption that their actions aren't recognized.

I'm sure that you will. But what will the audience do when they've left the room, and gone for a coffee?

I made no mention of a coffee break.

You do know that in professional and successful companies, they hardly ever make a decision on the spot, don't you?

I made no mention of companies.

How are you going to manipulate them, when they aren't there to be manipulated and when they are there, they'll never commit to doing what you want?

You're making a lot of assumptions and contextual injections. I'm talking purely about peer to peer interaction regardless of context.

Having said that, they're not immune to influence. The goal is never to turn those oriented North to a Southern orientation, it's to unite those already in a Southern orientation into a cohesive unit and move the group as a whole before the opposition can coalesce. Braided rope is stronger than the same number of strands that have yet to be braided.

 

[TimeAsylums]

It seems I have failed to specifically mention just why the ENTP plays the jester/fool.

There is more than just Ne,
How many times have you INTPs and INTJs attempted to persuade or debate a person, while you're being logical and correct, the debate or whatever comes to an end, youre right, but the other party refuses to accept for any variety of meanings/excuses whih ill leave you to extrapolate on. What have we then accomplished? Often you will be content merely having the correct, right, logical answer, yes? But what of the other party? I imagine many NTs, INTP, INTJ, even ENTP, leaving with a "Leave them to their own ignorance,"

The jester habit is often one learned in grade school or even younger. We get extremely tired of arguing, when we already have the answer, and we know no amount of arguing will convince anyone, what else is there to do: Ne sees the possibilities, The tert Fe is what makes us playful, whereas the INTP inferior Fe when stacked against their dom ti, it shows them often as sarcastic or caustic, because our fe is a step higher, we are playful towards people by nature. Therefore, thd calls it his rafiki teaching method, if we can simply share information and correct facts, whilst doing it playfully, with minimal arguing, why not?

I know many of my general musings even annoy INTPs and INTJs both but thats because of your Ti and Ni respectively, they are Ti: step by step logical analysis, and Ni is converging, however Ne, first obviously being extraverted, but secondly, skips steps, and you hate that.

I made an attempt to be more "orderly" in this post for you, but it takes a massive amount of restraint to not let Ne run loose andbe like "we are jesters because a..b..c..w..z endpoint" we are big picture, future oriented, Ne people. We hate discussing minor details when we already know the end.

You wish we would slow down our Ne and explain stepbystep, howeer "j mode" takes a massive amount of energy and restraint.

So I hope this will let you understand us a hit more, although thia has been said a numbwr od time elsewhere, but as for all of thw NTs, knowledge is power.

 

[TimeAsylums]

What makes us big picture people? the Ne, as it sees all possibilties, i dont want to say it but, we have the largest perspective, the widest view of the horizn. obviously however, we only have aux Ti and not dom so yours is...deeper but narrower if youwill.

 

[Duxwing]

What makes us big picture people? the Ne, as it sees all possibilties, i dont want to say it but, we have the largest perspective, the widest view of the horizn. obviously however, we only have aux Ti and not dom so yours is...deeper but narrower if youwill.

An INTP could determine the logical validity and consistency of the "end" seen by an ENTP; nonetheless, being able to temporarily engage "J mode" and restrain yourself is a valuable skill for sound reasoning.

-Duxwing

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Word on the block is youre an infj

Witch hunt thread plz.

 

[TimeAsylums]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=agrXgrAgQ0U&desktop_uri=/watch?v=agrXgrAgQ0U

"Da da da dee dum.,,"clarity (Ti) over serenity (Fe)"

Our, entps, auxiliary tertiary struggle isnt nearly as harsh as you intps dom inferior.
You (us to a lesser extent, but still, will suffer from almost always being right, altough people will be hurt by it. Your dom ti will very much desire to be correct, however if you get into an inferior fe mode, you wil FEEL the need/desire to please/make happy/make harmony with those around you, physically and mentally. Hence archies mention of those of you being pulled by the fe to work in humanities. Anyway, most of the intps alreay knew this, but said for the entps, as we feel the aux vs tert pull.