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The Antagonism Of Personality.

Agent Intellect

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Is our personality an antagonist of our free will? This could mean either a biological or social constructivist aspect of personality. Are human beings completely free to make decisions, but constantly have their personality (or other things, such as intelligence, values, social expectations) work against this freedom?

I'm sure people might see some similarities between these thoughts and my thread "Why Is There Something Instead Of Nothing?".

If freedom is the capacity to choose any possibility (and by that I mean all things that are possible and not all things) then is our personality the negation of these freedoms, carving out a nature, set of values or identity of ourselves? Or, is the contrary true - is our personality where our freedom emerges from?

How about something like intelligence - whether of a more 'intellectual' flavor (IQ test type intelligence), or of an emotional or interpersonal or practical intelligence? To me it seems that things like personality and intelligence are the limitations placed on our free will.

If this is true, is personality and the values we hold something that should be overcome for one to become a freer person? Is personality and the values we hold something that can be overcome? Are they self-fulfilling prophecy's or an inescapable, intrinsic part of who we are?
 

Dormouse

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It is our flaws that allow us free will. If we were completely objective and omniscient we would be able to narrow our choices down to the one thing that would benefit us the most. The more intelligent and objective we are the more we limit ourselves.
Since personality and emotion disallow perfect rationality they are in fact the root of our free will.
 

Agent Intellect

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It is our flaws that allow us free will. If we were completely objective and omniscient we would be able to narrow our choices down to the one thing that would benefit us the most. The more intelligent and objective we are the more we limit ourselves.
Since personality and emotion disallow perfect rationality they are in fact the root of our free will.

I'm not necessarily saying that our personalities and values prevent us from making the right decisions (the idea of a correct decision is a whole other thread in itself) but that they are limiting us from making other decisions.

I guess one could almost look at it as somehow becoming the ever sought after XXXX personality type. Being narrowed down to INTP limits me from [Ni, Si, Se, Te, Fi, Fe].

But, I think I can see where you are coming from. Perhaps it's not the negation of all personality one should seek after, but the realization of all of them at once - the ability to not be narrowly defined into one sort of personality, to not be limited by holding a certain set of values (which negates all others).

Even still, I would maintain that personality, whether it's the negation of freedom or the narrowing of ones possibilities, still removes from us a full realization of what one might call free will - whether it is the freedom to make good, bad, correct, incorrect, stupid, wise etc decisions.
 

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Are you including fears and phobias in the realm of personality?

Parachute or no, there is no way in hell I am ever jumping out of an airplane that's off the ground. I may even be reluctant if I know that plane is crashing. However I may do things that are more dangerous than what I know intellectually skydiving is.

I guess it's a silly question but I'm just wanting to make sure I know what all is involved in 'personality'.

To me it seems that things like personality and intelligence are the limitations placed on our free will.

I think this is partly correct but as you also said, society plays a role too. Perhaps even the biggest role. But I can't help but wonder what exactly free will would be like to someone without personality or intelligence. Is that even possible? Does intelligence not create for us the choices we have in life? Intelligence seems to certainly guide our decisions and thus perhaps limit the ones we might make but it also helps us to see what choices are actually available to us so thus it is the opposite in some ways too; we must have intelligence in order to have free will. (?)
 

Agent Intellect

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Are you including fears and phobias in the realm of personality?

Parachute or no, there is no way in hell I am ever jumping out of an airplane that's off the ground. I may even be reluctant if I know that plane is crashing. However I may do things that are more dangerous than what I know intellectually skydiving is.

I guess it's a silly question but I'm just wanting to make sure I know what all is involved in 'personality'.

Yes, I would include phobias and fears into the realm of personality, as they are an aspect of our identity, defining who we are (based on the decisions we make).

In existentialist literature, they define fear and anguish as two different things, though. Fear is the fear of how contingent things other than ourselves can effect our possibilities. If I am crossing a narrow bridge, I fear the bridge collapsing. Anguish is the reflexive fear of myself - what will I myself do that could cause me to fall (or even jump) off the bridge. So, I guess when it comes to the limitations of our personality, I would be interested in the anguish one feels - are we in control of the anguish we feel?

I think this is partly correct but as you also said, society plays a role too. Perhaps even the biggest role. But I can't help but wonder what exactly free will would be like to someone without personality or intelligence. Is that even possible? Does intelligence not create for us the choices we have in life? Intelligence seems to certainly guide our decisions and thus perhaps limit the ones we might make but it also helps us to see what choices are actually available to us so thus it is the opposite in some ways too; we must have intelligence in order to have free will. (?)

This brings up an interesting point. How much intelligence constitutes the wisdom to consider all possible choices, thereby making one free to make any decision? Would one have to know all in order to truly be free to do anything? Or, perhaps, would knowing all restrict our choices by somehow forcing us into a known future?

I suppose, though, when I talk of intelligence I don't necessarily mean how intelligent someone is, but their tendency to make decisions based on a particular sort of intelligence.
 

preilemus

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I'm thinking, maybe true free will is so vast, our minds can't comprehend everything of the anything we could do, but modifiers (intelligence, personality) open us up to specific options that we can handle.
when making a choice, you might mull over the various things you would do, though certainly not over the inexaustible amount of things you could do at the given time. how many times has someone said:
"why didn't you do X?" and you replied:
"oh. I didn't even think of X." (such a thing was inconcievable to you)
The removal of personality might open you up to options those more fixed wouldn't concieve, but could you honestly say that someone like that is going to consider all the options of someone with a personality and more?

In terms of mbti, I consider there to be XXXX and xxxx. the first would be equal parts of all functions, while the second would be equal absence of all functions (which I don't believe can exist).

So, I guess you could say it's a limiting factor (in the scientific sense), which means to get closer to 'true' free will, you need a progression of personality, and not the other way around.
 

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I thought about a visualization for this while I threw in a load of laundry just now (yeah, I am pathetically doing laundry on new year's eve).

Suppose you are hiking a trail in the woods and come upon a 3 way split. You don't know (hard intelligence) what is ahead in any direction and there is no distiguishable characteristics that you can see ahead that indicate to you (soft intelligence) what lies beyond. It seems to me that most people would choose to just keep going straight ahead. Is that a free will decision to eliminate 2 path choices or a sign of their personality in action? I then realised that I would go to either the left or the right because that is what my personality would have me do. I like directional changes and exploring the fringes. So that's not true free will either because I'm pretty much eliminating one of the 3 paths. I have one more path to really choose from than anyone who forges straight ahead so I can reasonably conclude that I have freer will in that regard but only by a degree. My personality is affecting it.

I'm thinking, maybe true free will is so vast, our minds can't comprehend everything of the anything we could do, but modifiers (intelligence, personality) open us up to specific options that we can handle.

I like this^^
 

Reverse Transcriptase

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The wisdom aspect is really interesting....

Here's another thing: Sometimes you can choose something without understanding the Really Good reasons why to do it. You just choose the minor reasons. It's like moving a chess pieces somewhere- I moved it because I thought it seemed good. Whereas infact it set me up for an excellent Queen-taking move four moves from now.

Is there a difference between making a choice with knowledge or without?


And in general, I'm loving this idea that free will is the antagonist of personality.
 

preilemus

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The wisdom aspect is really interesting....

Here's another thing: Sometimes you can choose something without understanding the Really Good reasons why to do it. You just choose the minor reasons. It's like moving a chess pieces somewhere- I moved it because I thought it seemed good. Whereas infact it set me up for an excellent Queen-taking move four moves from now.

Is there a difference between making a choice with knowledge or without?


And in general, I'm loving this idea that free will is the antagonist of personality.
chess might not be a good analogy for life in this case. In some ways yes, but given enough time anyone could clearly view every single option before them (within the game).
Take it into real life and you will see that all options haven't been considered. You're the kind of person who would focus on the game, so random or not, all the options you would make are within the context of the game.
Someone else might have just considered it a waste of time, picked up the pieces and flung them at the wall. because of your way of thinking about the scenario, that option probably didn't enter the range of options you would make.
 

Moocow

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What makes you think we have any "free will" to begin with?
 

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chess might not be a good analogy for life in this case. In some ways yes, but given enough time anyone could clearly view every single option before them (within the game).
Take it into real life and you will see that all options haven't been considered. You're the kind of person who would focus on the game, so random or not, all the options you would make are within the context of the game.
Someone else might have just considered it a waste of time, picked up the pieces and flung them at the wall. because of your way of thinking about the scenario, that option probably didn't enter the range of options you would make.

Yeah, I wasn't trying to use chess as an analogy for every single option that is presented towards people. There's definitely too much of a bell curve for chess to be appropriate. I just felt that it was a good analogy for: action with knowledge vs. action without knowledge.

And I was going to use Go, but I can't count on enough people being familiar with the game...
 

Agent Intellect

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I only have a little time before having to go to work, so I don't really have time to address everyone individually until later.

I guess we would have to distinguish what free will actually is here. Something without personality, like a rock, does not have any free will whatsoever. If an inanimate object is the complete absence of free will, then what would constitute complete free will?

I would say that complete freedom would require that one is not subject to causation. This would have to be a will that, at every moment, they are free to make any decision. This would also require that the being be aware of every possible choice that can be made at a certain point in time. But, the real problem comes when, in order for one to be free of any restrictions, or pre-determining factors, they would have to have no preference for one decision over another. The only thing that allows us to make certain decisions is our preference for one over another, so a paradox arises - someone who is not subject to their own personalities limitations (values and so forth that will cause them to make certain decisions over others) is not free to carry out their will if they do not exercise any preference.

This would follow that our free will emerges from our limitations, even if, in theory, it is limiting our possible choices.

I think IB's trail analogy works nicely. Someone unable to choose one of three paths over the others would not exercise any will, even if they are not limited by their personalities preferences. Being that we are temporal beings, and only experience reality from a finite point, we are unable to 'choose' all three, so our subjective experience restricts us to having to decide one trail over the other. It is only through the restrictions imposed on us by our personality - our values and fears/anguish as a determining factor - that we are free to choose one trail over the other, ultimately giving us the freedom to act out our will even if our full freedom is restricted by it; it is only through the restrictions that the will part of free will emerges.
 

Vrecknidj

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This is a GREAT thread. I have a lot of thinking to do before I can post anything meaningful, but, I really like the questions that are being raised. Thanks.

Dave
 

Agent Intellect

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I've had some thoughts that are closely related enough to this thread that I decided to put them here instead of making a new thread.

This is about identity. People, especially the people that frequent this forum, seem to constantly be seeking an identity - a "theory of everything" that fully describes themselves. I know for me I take just about every personality test I can get my hands on in hopes that one more will get me that much closer to 'understanding myself'.

So, I guess to define what identity even is, I would probably say that it's the 'causal' factor (or, at least, the awareness of it is the 'causal' factor) for our values, desires, and intentions, which are the causal factors of our actions and behaviors. Our identity is that which we are aware exists when one says that we are self aware - it is the "am" in "I think, therefore I am". The "I" would, to me, signify the awareness itself; the "I" is aware that is (am). I am aware of being distinct from all else, and this is how I identify myself as being me. From this follows everything else - my values, desires, intentions etc.

So, I've been wondering, how can one find an identity (and yes, this is related to what I asked in the youtube video thread)? At face value, the notion is a bit humorous - how can one not know who they are when it is themselves asking the question? This seems to be an exercise in making oneself into not-them-self in order to examine themselves. So, does one require that they disassociate from them self in order to further understand them self?

On another level, it would be impossible to isolate who one is right now, and this would follow that we can only understand ourselves by understanding our 'character' - ie, the way we have conducted ourselves in prior situations and circumstances. So, I guess the question here is: is the way we have behaved up to now an accurate way of determining how we will act in the future? Is the search for self identity even for the purpose of understanding our future selves?

So, in another way, if it is ourselves that search for ourselves, what is it that is obfuscating our full realization of our identity? The only logical explanation seems to be that it would be ourselves that are also working against (antagonism - I knew this was going to fit into this thread!) ourselves. So what can be made of this? It would seem to follow that we already have an understanding of our own identity in order for us to deny this 'information' to ourselves. What part of us is working against us, though, and why? Is it an innate human nature to deny oneself their identity to them self? Is there even truly a hidden identity to be uncovered, or is this merely a human yearning to want there to be something to find about themselves? Or, is the search for identity the way in which one creates their identity?
 

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personality is not law. personality can be manipulated... i think :confused:
 

echoplex

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I don't really think we are completely aware of what our personality is, but I think our self-concept definitely works against the freedom we allow ourselves to enjoy. We are never totally free anyway, but if you could determine how much freedom a person is capable of and call that "freedom" (for the sake of discussion), even then our concepts of who we are, identity, will tend to restrict how close we come to this "freedom."

It's like how people will refrain from things they determine are "not me", but how they arrive to that conclusion fascinates me and yet frustrates me, because how do they know what "me" is? Is it just a matter of wish fulfillment, with "me" being the desired self? or is it more a response to what has and hasn't worked for them?

Basically, how do we determine what our (perceived) personality is? And how does this differ from our "real" personality? (or is there a gap at all between the two?)

I think all we have for self-understanding are:
1. How we view ourselves, which is often determined by a need to fulfill wishes about the self. (not very accurate, although the ability to perceive the self is highest here, but it's subjective)
2. How others view us -- i.e. persona. This requires a good feedback system, and honest communication to work well. The motives of others can cloud this. (objective-ish, but not reliable and unable to perceive as much data)
2a. Generic understanding. This is based on the idea of who someone is categorically. For example, you might say you're a homo sapien of a certain race, gender, genetics, etc.. This data could give you an objective idea of who you are as a specimen, so to speak. (accurate, but probably not relevant or perceptive)
 

Brad

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I don't think it necessarily follows that some part of our cognition, designed by means of natural selection (I would assume you are implying), is blocking ourselves from understanding our true identity. It also seems quite possible that intelligence is the limiting factor (in this case, probably neglected by natural selection for its uselessness in procreation).

If you define personality vaguely such as: Personality is the consistency of temperament with which we deal with any given situation, it suddenly becomes very easy to know who you truly are. I'm an INTP.

Personality must be more complex than that. I believe every thought or action is based on the outcome of a previous situation with some degree of genetic influence. For every decision you make, the casual factor seems to be the perceived positive or negative effect of a previous decision of similarity. So if your allow for this point of view, wouldn't a true understanding of one's self also require the complete understanding of the system of cause and effect the leads you to every thought that goes through your mind? If so, the limiting factor is indeed part of the intellect, but not a blocking mechanism, more like a missing component.
 

bananaphallus

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* Please excuse the sweeping and misinformed generalizations

I remember reading an article discussing the neurological changes which occur over the course of a long-term loving relationship, and how even in the most impassioned and intense of relationships, without fail, after two or three years or so, the level of oxytocin, a hormone which generally makes us more acquiescent, friendly, and docile, increases in both partners - and so the nature of the relationship will have fundamentally changed from a nonstop sex-party, to a more 'civilized' (who's to say though...) and equally as satisfying partnership - but possibly in different ways. I think it's possible this could explain the real/perceived tendency of married folk to be more conservative [politically or in terms of behavior] and risk-averse. If this is the case, it's a sobering thought, to think that our perspectives, opinions, behavioral patterns, etc., could all be subject to and profoundly altered by physiological and neurological changes which occur independently of volition, possibly meaning we're nowhere near as free to think what we'd like as we would've thought.
 

Agent Intellect

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I don't really think we are completely aware of what our personality is, but I think our self-concept definitely works against the freedom we allow ourselves to enjoy. We are never totally free anyway, but if you could determine how much freedom a person is capable of and call that "freedom" (for the sake of discussion), even then our concepts of who we are, identity, will tend to restrict how close we come to this "freedom."

I wonder if it's just the nature of our mind that keeps us from the full realization of our self? In the same way that language is symbolic, it's probably true that our self-concept is symbolic, in that it's only a rough representation of self. If self awareness is the awareness of an identity separate from the rest of the world, then the identity itself would be, for example, the actual object (lets say a house), and our awareness would be the mental representation (namely the word house). In this way, our search for identity is basically the attempt to take our understanding of ourselves out of the symbolic and into the fullness of understanding.

It's like how people will refrain from things they determine are "not me", but how they arrive to that conclusion fascinates me and yet frustrates me, because how do they know what "me" is? Is it just a matter of wish fulfillment, with "me" being the desired self? or is it more a response to what has and hasn't worked for them?

This is something that I have always wondered about with MBTI, too. It seems like, perhaps even unconsciously, that it would become a self fulfilling prophecy. The more one learns about "who I am" the more they are going to act how they are supposed to act - so, in finding oneself, one becomes less like them self.

I think all we have for self-understanding are:
1. How we view ourselves, which is often determined by a need to fulfill wishes about the self. (not very accurate, although the ability to perceive the self is highest here, but it's subjective)

Interesting idea. Perhaps our own distorted (subjective) view of ourselves adds further distortion to our identity? It's sort of the same idea as a crazy person trying to diagnose themselves as being crazy, or a sensor that is supposed to sense when it is no longer functioning. How can we truly search for our own identity when it is ourselves that do not have a clear picture of not only who we are, but who we think we're supposed to be?

2. How others view us -- i.e. persona. This requires a good feedback system, and honest communication to work well. The motives of others can cloud this. (objective-ish, but not reliable and unable to perceive as much data)

Indeed, the way others treat us and the persona's of other people will affect our own persona (and ultimately our identity). This, I guess, is sort of the motivation for the quote "hell is other people", since other people can have such an affect on our own search for self identity - and can even warp and shape what our identity even is.

2a. Generic understanding. This is based on the idea of who someone is categorically. For example, you might say you're a homo sapien of a certain race, gender, genetics, etc.. This data could give you an objective idea of who you are as a specimen, so to speak. (accurate, but probably not relevant or perceptive)

This could even go with MBTI, too - INTP's will classify themselves as INTP's; there is a lot of talk on this forum about how a "normal" INTP should behave, and how INTP's should act in certain situations (mostly with relationship related things). I think this way of self identification is also what perpetuates stereotypes. I abhor stereotyping, but not just from the outside, but from inside. I think a lot of people of different races, sexes, political views, religions, personality types etc will adjust themselves to align more with the stereotype isntead of trying to transcend it, or simply just "be themselves".

I don't think it necessarily follows that some part of our cognition, designed by means of natural selection (I would assume you are implying), is blocking ourselves from understanding our true identity. It also seems quite possible that intelligence is the limiting factor (in this case, probably neglected by natural selection for its uselessness in procreation).

Actually, I think that the way our brain is constructed by natural selection is the limiting factor. Not only are we unconscious of many of the way our brain works, and are subject to our emotions instead of in control of them (for the most part), but as I mentioned in the first paragraph of this response, natural selection has built our brains for symbolic thinking. This is a "design" that's most advantageous for survival instead of philosophical thinking, so it would follow (to me) that our inability to fully realize our identity is a result of natural selection

If you define personality vaguely such as: Personality is the consistency of temperament with which we deal with any given situation, it suddenly becomes very easy to know who you truly are. I'm an INTP.

Personality must be more complex than that.

I would strongly agree with this. This is why I find it strange that many people search for self identity by looking for their modus operandi. People seem to want to define themselves by their normal way of reacting to situations by looking at how they have reacted (whether it be their behavioral reaction or their thoughts at the time) in the past. This is obviously important for introspection, because one should understand why they did what they did, but I wouldn't see this as a good way to undertake self discovery, but more a learning from ones mistakes (or successes).

I believe every thought or action is based on the outcome of a previous situation with some degree of genetic influence. For every decision you make, the casual factor seems to be the perceived positive or negative effect of a previous decision of similarity. So if your allow for this point of view, wouldn't a true understanding of one's self also require the complete understanding of the system of cause and effect the leads you to every thought that goes through your mind? If so, the limiting factor is indeed part of the intellect, but not a blocking mechanism, more like a missing component.

I would agree that there is some degree of determining factors, mainly genetic, when seeking ones identity. This is sort of what I was touching on in the OP, the idea that our personality (genetic or social constructivist) is an antagonist to our free will, restricting or limiting it. The question, then is, are we able to transcend these limitations placed on us by natural selection and our social upbringing and education? How would one go about transcending this - by recognizing and understanding it, or is this an exercise in futility? Will the full realization of our identity allow us create our own identity however we please (and if this is true, wouldn't we just create it by thinking through the filter of our identity?)

I remember reading an article discussing the neurological changes which occur over the course of a long-term loving relationship, and how even in the most impassioned and intense of relationships, without fail, after two or three years or so, the level of oxytocin, a hormone which generally makes us more acquiescent, friendly, and docile, increases in both partners - and so the nature of the relationship will have fundamentally changed from a nonstop sex-party, to a more 'civilized' (who's to say though...) and equally as satisfying partnership - but possibly in different ways. I think it's possible this could explain the real/perceived tendency of married folk to be more conservative [politically or in terms of behavior] and risk-averse. If this is the case, it's a sobering thought, to think that our perspectives, opinions, behavioral patterns, etc., could all be subject to and profoundly altered by physiological and neurological changes which occur independently of volition, possibly meaning we're nowhere near as free to think what we'd like as we would've thought.

There is definitely a level of biological determinism involved in our personality. Even a simple task, like walking, becomes more mundane as synaptic connections either solidify (long-term potentiation, synaptic plasticity) or are removed (synaptic pruning), turning things into a more 'automatic' process. The brain is stimulated by new things, so there is definitely a decrease in the neurotransmitters involved in lust and passion as a relationship matures. There have even been studies that showed that the serotonin levels in someone that has just recently fallen in love are the same as with people who suffer from OCD, which decreases as time goes on.
 

bluesquid

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I commend you on such an undertaking.

I would guess that you opened and have contributed this thread because you are in the process of "learning to walk" I dont mean to sound condescending, i went through this in my mid twenties. You having a post pupa molt?

As you mature your free will emerges and strengthens. But, your choices and actions narrow. Your personality weakens.

I started a thread awhile ago, hoping I might pull someone in this direction.

You have been a huge petri dish of thought and intuition. You have developed to the point where your free will is a slave to reason. A collective's M.O. is your guidance. You will never be free of truth.

Your personality and your free will have merged, with your personality subservient. Relative to the general populace, your free will is strong, while their personality is strong.

I once read that personality is overt mental illness. Your free will has tamed and put your personality to work.
 
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