Take a reflective stance; be the hero you need, not the one it deserves.

[QuickTwist]

Shame is an emotion - a feeling - a thought process - that I think everyone can do without.

There are so many pressures placed on people from society these days that people get so caught up in what they should do. This is highly detrimental to one's mental health. These pressures bite and cause bleeding to the ego, where the ego feels like it must perform to be accepted. Much of the time people don't even know why they are doing what they are doing; they are simply doing it because they think they should.

I want to make a point that living by what you feel you should do and the pressures of acting on such impulses can largely be negated through self realization and interpretation in and of your own personal reason for doing what you are doing.

So I don't know about you, but I am going to strive even more towards individualism. If one does not have reason for themselves, they will be lost in the sea of confusion.

https://youtu.be/-yiW7bK3huo

 

[Ex-User (13503)]

Shame is an emotion - a feeling - a thought process - that I think everyone can do without.

No. No way. Specifically, if you're identifying it as a thought process and seeing it as detrimental, you haven't fully fleshed out that process. Now.... improper activation of that process, yeah, that causes problems, and I think that's what you're getting at *here.

Theoretical example: You feel shame because of some intrinsic bodily feature or disability, or because you stole a cookie from the cookie jar when you were 9. Shame in this case is pointless. The cause was never within your conscious control and/or you never knew it to be wrong.

Compare that to shame after consciously choosing to do something you know is wrong. The unpleasantness of shame serves a purpose there as a catalyst for change and alteration of future behavior.

But back to OP and *here. It seems like you're experiencing a diversion between your own values and those of others, which is common and normal. Hell yeah, be yourself.

 

[QuickTwist]

No. No way. Specifically, if you're identifying it as a thought process and seeing it as detrimental, you haven't fully fleshed out that process. Now.... improper activation of that process, yeah, that causes problems, and I think that's what you're getting at *here.

Theoretical example: You feel shame because of some intrinsic bodily feature or disability, or because you stole a cookie from the cookie jar when you were 9. Shame in this case is pointless. The cause was never within your conscious control and/or you never knew it to be wrong.

Compare that to shame after consciously choosing to do something you know is wrong. The unpleasantness of shame serves a purpose there as a catalyst for change and alteration of future behavior.

But back to OP and *here. It seems like you're experiencing a diversion between your own values and those of others, which is common and normal. Hell yeah, be yourself.

One can learn what not to do (because of a mistake) without the feeling of shame. Sometimes anger is a proponent of this as well.

 

[Ex-User (13503)]

One can learn what not to do (because of a mistake) without the feeling of shame. Sometimes anger is a proponent of this as well.

Eh.... there are some lessons that only shame can teach. If you haven't experienced that, you should consider yourself lucky.

 

[Bad Itch]

Eh.... there are some lessons that only shame can teach.

I'm with Lagomorph. This is like... super important.

 

[QuickTwist]

Eh.... there are some lessons that only shame can teach. If you haven't experienced that, you should consider yourself lucky.

Give me an example. As far as I know, you have no idea what you are talking about.

I have felt shame.. extreme shame - to the point it drove me insane. I know what I am talking about when I say it only has the power to destroy the ego and never build it up. There is no confidence in shame, there is only failure. Shame itself does not motivate. What motivates is when you have rid yourself of that emotion and come out of that place.

So you are saying that with shame it can have an impact on you to not want to have that emotion again? I would say shame is not at all necessary to decide you will never do something again. The same decision can be based on reason. The decisions you make because of shame can be made, but in healthier ways from using reasoning to see how that particular behavior didn't work.

I hate shame and I would do a lot of things to rid myself of it forever. That means adopting a frame of mind that is conducive to doing things my own way without regret. This is a much more motivating thing for me than shame could ever do for me because it is proactive rather than reactive.

 

[Ex-User (13503)]

Say you drove drunk and killed someone. If you feel ashamed afterward and decide not to be that person ever again, and stop drinking, shame has served its purpose by killing the part of the ego that allowed you to drink and drive.

Sometimes egos need pruning. This is because not everyone operates on reason, and those that do don't operate on it 100% of the time. A reasonable person would never drive drunk to begin with, yet drunk drivers exist. The intense turmoil of shame is exactly why it's effective, when used appropriately. Shaming someone because of a disability, for example, wouldn't be appropriate.

 

[TheScornedReflex]

I don't agree with shame being something we should be without. Shame has the potential to form a powerful motivator for change. Yes, one has to fight through the ordeal which shame brings but that can be for the better. Whether it be from societal pressures to one's own mistake(s), we have the ability to learn and grow. A chance for self betterment and realization.

That's not to say shame doesn't come with a truck load of self loathing, anxiety and can be quite crippling. But again, in overcoming that, we grow.

To me shame is a point on my moral compass, if that makes sense?

 

[Reluctantly]

Say you drove drunk and killed someone. If you feel ashamed afterward and decide not to be that person ever again, and stop drinking, shame has served its purpose by killing the part of the ego that allowed you to drink and drive.

I don't know. That's more a sense of guilt than it is shame. Shame usually involves a social condemnation of a person's actions. I guess in your case someone could invoke shame on a drunk driver for killing someone; the driver may then feel guilty and never drive drunk again. So in that case shame works.

But trying to shame someone into feeling social guilt when they don't even feel personally guilty is pretty noxious. For example, gay people are sometimes shamed for being gay, but they themselves don't feel any personal guilt about liking their own gender. They might feel guilty for not being accepted by other people because of it, but there is no personal guilt about being gay. This kind of shame is selfish and intolerant of what makes people different.

 

[Ex-User (13503)]

I don't know. That's more a sense of guilt than it is shame. Shame usually involves a social condemnation of a person's actions. I guess in your case someone could invoke shame on a drunk driver for killing someone; the driver may then feel guilty and never drive drunk again. So in that case shame works.

But trying to shame someone into feeling social guilt when they don't even feel personally guilty is pretty noxious. For example, gay people are sometimes shamed for being gay, but they themselves don't feel any personal guilt about liking their own gender. They might feel guilty for not being accepted by other people because of it, but there is no personal guilt about being gay. This kind of shame is selfish and intolerant of what makes people different.

That's what I meant, yeah. Slightly more practical concept tie in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reintegrative_shaming

And that's what I meant by appropriate use. As a mechanism, shame doesn't work on things that are beyond someone's control, which in my model also includes problems with solutions that the target of shaming is unaware of, in which case teaching must be an accompaniment for it to be effective.

 

[QuickTwist]

I guess my point is that there is more benefit in telling people to fuck off who shame you. *shrug*

 

[Ex-User (13503)]

If their reason for shaming you sucks, then yeah. If they're shaming you for something like driving drunk, then you should probably pay attention to that one.

 

[QuickTwist]

If their reason for shaming you sucks, then yeah. If they're shaming you for something like driving drunk, then you should probably pay attention to that one.

I've never driven drunk and never been in a situation where shaming was justified. I've been shamed for a lot of things. Most can be summed up by a difference in personality at best and being shamed because of what I do or don't believe at worst. I'm pretty sure any kind of shame comes from the root of either of these. As a moral relativists, I don't believe "different" should mean something should be shamed in any way. People should hold themselves alone for their responsibility in this world. Anything less convolutes the true essence of individualism.

 

[Happy]

No. No way. Specifically, if you're identifying it as a thought process and seeing it as detrimental, you haven't fully fleshed out that process. Now.... improper activation of that process, yeah, that causes problems, and I think that's what you're getting at *here.

Theoretical example: You feel shame because of some intrinsic bodily feature or disability, or because you stole a cookie from the cookie jar when you were 9. Shame in this case is pointless. The cause was never within your conscious control and/or you never knew it to be wrong.

Compare that to shame after consciously choosing to do something you know is wrong. The unpleasantness of shame serves a purpose there as a catalyst for change and alteration of future behavior.

But back to OP and *here. It seems like you're experiencing a diversion between your own values and those of others, which is common and normal. Hell yeah, be yourself.

Nope.

You're confusing shame and guilt.

Shame is a reflection on one's self. It's destructive to self image, causing and perpetuating a downward spiral.

Guilt is a reflection on one's actions, which if approached correctly, aids self improvement.

They are not synonymous.

 

[Pressure's Spring]

What characterizes guilt and shame are unpleasant emotions. They are indicators of wrong-doing or otherwise used for social regulation. We can consider shame to be, a passive form of guilt, which resembles self-loathing - it's self-indulgent, irresponsible, and fruitless, whereas guilt is precisely the opposite.

 

[Black Rose]

Shame comes from exclusion. People feel shame because they do not want to be excluded. The reason you would exclude someone is that you think there is something wrong with them. Exclusion feels like being judged because that is exactly what it is. Shame conflicts with the third level of Maslow's Hierarchy. At a younger age, people are more susceptible to shame. People want others in their peer group to like them. As people gain confident they feel less of a need to be defined by their group. Even if others think something is wrong with them they don't think anything is wrong with them. There is less need to conform because the standard has changed from what others think to what the individual thinks. Shame was an important survival mechanism in hunter gather tribes, it is less so today.

 

[nanook]

why would i want to do anything with my life? we feel good when what we do is an authentic expression of nature. but wanting things is not the major business of nature, beyond wanting food, shelter and sex, which are only means to live. and sex drive fades with age.

beyond that, life is not a matter of wanting but one of ability. enjoying life comes from exhibiting any kind of skill, for no particular reason.

but the only skill we have all been educated in is that of conforming to society. so being a slave is the most enjoyable thing to our true nature. and being shamed is part of that job assignment.

- i myself wasn't educated to conform, i failed all the classes.
- i may not have any other particular skills either, certainly not educated ones.

little skill to practice, little joy in existing. best i can do is mess around.

confidence, immunity to shame, comes from successful exhibition of skills beyond passive conformity. it's not a psychological choice, unless you can live in imagination and exhibit imaginary skills, a bubble easy to burst.

 

[QuickTwist]

why would i want to do anything with my life? we feel good when what we do is an authentic expression of nature. but wanting things is not the major business of nature, beyond wanting food, shelter and sex, which are only means to live. and sex drive fades with age.

beyond that, life is not a matter of wanting but one of ability. enjoying life comes from exhibiting any kind of skill, for no particular reason.

but the only skill we have all been educated in is that of conforming to society. so being a slave is the most enjoyable thing to our true nature. and being shamed is part of that job assignment.

- i myself wasn't educated to conform, i failed all the classes.
- i may not have any other particular skills either, certainly not educated ones.

little skill to practice, little joy in existing. best i can do is mess around.

confidence, immunity to shame, comes from successful exhibition of skills beyond passive conformity. it's not a psychological choice, unless you can live in imagination and exhibit imaginary skills, a bubble easy to burst.

To cope is to change. What do you think of this?

 

[nanook]

changing a brain, that was fed a cooked high fat high protein diet for 35 years, is like steering the titanic. coping with a brain like that involves a whole lot of sleeping.

 

[QuickTwist]

changing a brain, that was fed a cooked high fat high protein diet for 35 years, is like steering the titanic. coping with a brain like that involves a whole lot of sleeping.

You should look more into clinical psychology, specifically, CBT and DBT.

 

[Hadoblado]

QT is right. You seriously underestimate neuroplasticity.

The human brain is extremely flexible. It can do the splits and everything!

 

[The Gopher]

it's not a psychological choice, unless you can live in imagination and exhibit imaginary skills, a bubble easy to burst.

Huh so that's what I've been doing.

Are you suggesting we all become psychopaths?

As Elly Roose said “No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” If you feel shame about something that means you believe it at least to some extent. If you say I suck at..... (okay I'll admit I sat here wondering what I'm good at for quite a long time) But if you say I suck at walking I'll laugh you out the house. If you say I suck at singing I'll probably be ashamed or something because I'm not a psychopath. Anyway the point is it gives you insight into what you believe about yourself. If you believe those things you can either fix them by taking singing classes or never sing ever and subtly always be busy on karaoke night.

If you say we should be without shame that's saying you should be blind to yourself. Now sure you can believe things that aren't true and have a low ego that way but the alternative is believing you the the sun goddess Sol or something. How can you have self realization and a personal reason for doing what you want if you are blind to yourself?

Now I need to find out if I believe what I'm saying. Maybe this is why I can't find my type my ego is too big. Naw my ego is perfectly sized, it's the best ego.

 

[nanook]

by immunity to shame i mean immunity to comments suggesting that you are essentially worthless for society. such shame is obedience to the commandment to stay out of society. you are a nuisance, just another mouth to feed and a potential transmitter of disease. not being obedient to this commandment would be crossing a line in deed. "no means no. we don't want to play with you." but having objective skills is like having papers that say: "shut up you idiot, i am actually allowed in there, i am the delivery guy, open that god damn door!" but if all you have to deliver is a batch of the watchtower magazine, then ... well, that is exactly what most people are doing, its how capitalism works. advertising some shit that has no real value. but its still a skill to pull off a con. a skill i don't have.

you don't need reasons to exhibit real skills. its spontaneous expression of true self.
you don't need purpose to enjoy being alive.

but you need a reason to con yourself into doing something that rubs you the wrong way.
if the best you can do is deliver watchtower magazins until your back breaks, just tell yourself you are saving the world in doing so and the back pain is justified via selfimage. imagination based self image, in this case. but when your customers buy the magazine, its no longer just your own imagination. they believe in that magazine. now you can be real proud about yourself. you have no reason to be ashamed about your hunchback. your true nature is wasted, but you don't care. hunchback is the new backbone.

on the other hand, if a good scientist sits in a church, should he be ashamed for not being a true believer? of course not. he knows that rationality is a skill. those who don't have it can't take anything away from that. he can't be shamed. he knows himself by knowing what he can do. like predict shit. he doesn't need to see himself through the eyes of religious folks to know that this is a valuable offering to humanity.

 

[QuickTwist]

by immunity to shame i mean immunity to comments suggesting that you are essentially worthless for society. such shame is obedience to the commandment to stay out of society. you are a nuisance, just another mouth to feed and a potential transmitter of disease. not being obedient to this commandment would be crossing a line in deed. "no means no. we don't want to play with you." but having objective skills is like having papers that say: "shut up you idiot, i am actually allowed in there, i am the delivery guy, open that god damn door!" but if all you have to deliver is a batch of the watchtower magazine, then ... well, that is exactly what most people are doing, its how capitalism works. advertising some shit that has no real value. but its still a skill to pull off a con. a skill i don't have.

you don't need reasons to exhibit real skills. its spontaneous expression of true self.
you don't need purpose to enjoy being alive.

but you need a reason to con yourself into doing something that rubs you the wrong way.
if the best you can do is deliver watchtower magazins until your back breaks, just tell yourself you are saving the world in doing so and the back pain is justified via selfimage. imagination based self image, in this case. but when your customers buy the magazine, its no longer just your own imagination. they believe in that magazine. now you can be real proud about yourself. you have no reason to be ashamed about your hunchback. your true nature is wasted, but you don't care. hunchback is the new backbone.

on the other hand, if a good scientist sits in a church, should he be ashamed for not being a true believer? of course not. he knows that rationality is a skill. those who don't have it can't take anything away from that. he can't be shamed. he knows himself by knowing what he can do. like predict shit. he doesn't need to see himself through the eyes of religious folks to know that this is a valuable offering to humanity.

This is an over exaggeration and an over generalization and black and white thinking. And guess what? There are tools in psychology that can help you deal with that. Once you put a name to things it no longer becomes a dogmatic ritual but a statement or action of peace. Sometimes the best thing you can do is fake it till you make it.

Did you know that our thought process when comparing positive to negative is about 5:1? That is a concrete number. Knowing this empowers one to do something about it. That something is replacing the negative comment with a positive (or at least neutral) one. Thought challenging is a real thing, but can only be effective if you do it.

 

[QuickTwist]

http://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_listening_to_shame

 

[nanook]

This is an over exaggeration and an over generalization and black and white thinking.

What, you mean like everything i said, every sentence?

Can i replace this comment with a more positive comment?

And now I need to go into therapy, because my attempt of illustrating how the hierarchy of needs (belonging via acceptance < esteem via success) is actually a hierarchy of abilities (conforming via obedience < achieving via creative skill) was too black and white?

 

[QuickTwist]

What, you mean like everything i said, every sentence?

Can i replace this comment with a more positive comment?

And now I need to go into therapy, because my attempt of illustrating how the hierarchy of needs (belonging via acceptance < esteem via success) is actually a hierarchy of abilities (conforming via obedience < achieving via creative skill) was too black and white?

It wasn't what you said per se, but how you said it. It paints a bleak picture that dwells mostly on the negative - to which only few can be apart of the positive.

Don't take this personally, I am going through my own stuff right now and I find it therapeutic to do it this way.

In short, I felt you were trying to use Capitalism to symbolize the psychological community. You went directly against using tools to put yourself in a better frame of mind and even said it has a negative outcome. What's more is you used the "rational mind" to be such of cynicism and created a polarity of negativity in where the pessimist has a clear(er) view of reality while the hopeful person who looks to cope with the world is delusional.

 

[Ex-User (13503)]

Nope.

You're confusing shame and guilt.

Shame is a reflection on one's self. It's destructive to self image, causing and perpetuating a downward spiral.

Guilt is a reflection on one's actions, which if approached correctly, aids self improvement.

They are not synonymous.

Not entirely, though I do understand how it can be seen that way because the connection was implied (assumption = the 9yo didn't fully grasp what it meant to be a thief vs their older self reflecting back on the past). Identity is a combination of both intrinsic traits and past actions, which follows an agency gradient. For example, the act of stealing makes one a thief, which then becomes part of one's identity. Whether the individual recognizes this (and would then be able to make a conscious choice to accept/reject vs an unconscious one) can be complicated by ego defense mechanisms though.

 

[Happy]

Not entirely, though I do understand how it can be seen that way because the connection was implied (assumption = the 9yo didn't fully grasp what it meant to be a thief vs their older self reflecting back on the past). Identity is a combination of both intrinsic traits and past actions, which follows an agency gradient. For example, the act of stealing makes one a thief, which then becomes part of one's identity. Whether the individual recognizes this (and would then be able to make a conscious choice to accept/reject vs an unconscious one) can be complicated by ego defense mechanisms though.

No, I didn't misinterpret. You miscommunicated. It's okay, I see you just got your definitions confused.

 

[Ex-User (13503)]

No, I didn't misinterpret. You miscommunicated.

I uh.... didn't deny either of these...? And you responded with a rebuttal as if I did? What is going on right now?

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