Subculture?

[Agent Intellect]

it has been said before that INTP's can be quite counterculture. from reading this forum (and observing myself) i find that this can be quite true for a lot of us. i think its our natural compulsion to look at things and think "why is this the norm?"

after thinking about this, i went to many INTP's good friend Wikipedia and did some reading on subcultures. i got to wondering where i thought i might fit in with one of these groups. obviously, everyone here is going to think they fit in with whatever they feel as an individual, but i was wondering what type of subculture people identified with the most.

This is a list of subcultures they have on wikipedia, but if anyone has something else they'd like to add to the present list, feel free.

the funny thing about me is that, even though i mostly listen to hip-hop, i find that i identify more with the grunge culture. by that i mean, if someone met me on the street and you asked them which one they thought i was, thats the one they would probably say.

anyway, anyone else have any thoughts on this?

 

[Agent Intellect]

lol @ my spelling. should be "Subculture" not the culture of subs. any admin/mod want to fix that....

 

[NoID10ts]

I don't think I fit into any of those categories. Externally, I just look like an average nobody that no one would take a second notice of, on the street. Internally I am a total freak of nature, I think.

As soon as I realize I am beginning to fall into a category I will usually shake things up to break free of it. Right now, I am in such a free floating transitional phase of my life I feel like I have no place at all. In my opinion, most "non conformists" are just conformists with a narrower spectrum of conformity. As egotistical as it sounds, I want to be the one who starts a new subculture, not follow one.

I'm failing miserably.

 

[Ogion]

Re: Sub Culture?

Hm, the group i probably relate to the most would be the Hacker. Read this too. And this of course. Although i am no real programmer, but it is a question of approach/attitude, towards computer technology in specific, but towards most other things as well.

Otherwise i normally can'T find any 'group' with which i could identify myself with (completely). I mean, there are many things from which i at least would agree with parts, but there are few i give total agreement to.

Ogion

 

[EloquentBohemian]

Re: Sub Culture?

Well, I used to be a "hippie" and "bohemian" when younger (...much younger) and was a Deadhead for awhile, but now I tend to eschew any real category. One comes to realise that one is far too complex to fit into any one or two subcultures.
I think of myself as a subculture of one.

 

[Kidege]

Re: Sub Culture?

I don't think I fit either. While I like fanfic and read enormous amounts of it, I don't talk to anyone in the fandom subculture. I stay in the sidelines and watch (oh big surprise).

 

[Ermine]

Re: Sub Culture?

I don't conform to the norms of subcultures either. While I have many friends from various subcultures, I don't feel affiliated with any of them.

 

[Waterstiller]

Re: Sub Culture?

I think of myself as a subculture of one.

^^

INTPforum.com is the subculture for me.

 

[loveofreason]

Re: Sub Culture?

lol @ my spelling. should be "Subculture" not the culture of subs. any admin/mod want to fix that....

I was so tempted to not fix that .



Aren't we happier at the leading edge or forgotten fringes of social experimentation than in any statically defined grouping?

 

[Agent Intellect]

yeah, i assumed i'd get these kinds of responses from this board. i certainly feel the same way (and like NoID10t's said, i often think of myself as starting my own subculture).

i guess what i mean is, how do you think someone that meets you on the street would describe you? and, if you're on the vanguard of your own subculture, how would you describe it to someone else?

 

[Dissident]

Pretty much like NoID10ts said, I think I look like some averange nobody, maybe somewhat grunge.
I feel like getting clothes and all according to some style would be pretty much like puting a costume, and doing that would feel really stupid. Besides, I listen to many different kind sof music and am interested in many different subjects, should I pick only one? Imposible. Dressing up like a metalhead would feel right while I listen to metal, but then when things like this pop while shuffling my library what do I do, take all the leather off really fast?

 

[FusionKnight]

I guess maybe Hacker, Role-playing Gamer and Trekkie describe me best, but those are things I like, not cultures I'm a part of. I think if anybody met me in the street they'd probably get the impression of a young, middle-class, white dude...

 

[loveofreason]

...what do I do, take all the leather off really fast?

Now that's just an open invitation for someone like Noddy! (Have I mentioned The Arena?)


I can't seriously answer AI's question as I don't really know how I appear to others. I don't know what they see.

Hopefully someone they can't quite pigeonhole because of so many mixed aspects?

 

[Ogion]

Haha, you know Fusion, i could have written the same thing exactly it it would probably equally apply

Ogion

 

[NoID10ts]

Is there a subculture for comfort? I make every effort to stay as comfortable as possible. T-shirts, shorts, and caps for me, whenever possible. I loathe any kind of formal wear and I don't do ties. I also avoid tucking in the shirts. Holes are just ventalation as far as I am concerned, and any tattering and rips are just decoration.

Oh yeah, there is a subculture for that. It's called being a bum.

 

[Waterstiller]

I don't know what I fall under. I dress nice and somewhat androgynous. I usually have a rainbow somewhere on my person, but it's not always readily apparent that I'm lesbian. I dress minimalistic and like to wear artistic and androgynous shirts.

AH!

I know what I look like: a women's studies grad student! Or perhaps a young female therapist.

 

[Kuu]

when things like this pop while shuffling my library what do I do, take all the leather off really fast?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ManlyTears


I don't consider myself a subculture of one; that would still require the defining of boundaries...

How other's perceive me, there is only guessing. I don't fit any particular stereotype, and I guess I seem like your run-of-the-mill mysteriously-silent-smart-apathetic-cynic guy. I'd be described as "the silent guy who only talks to point out mistakes, provide miscellaneous obscure facts on obscure subjects, and spontaneously make witty snide and sarcastic comments that make everyone go literally rofl"

 

[Agent Intellect]

Is there a subculture for comfort? I make every effort to stay as comfortable as possible. T-shirts, shorts, and caps for me, whenever possible. I loathe any kind of formal wear and I don't do ties. I also avoid tucking in the shirts. Holes are just ventalation as far as I am concerned, and any tattering and rips are just decoration.

Oh yeah, there is a subculture for that. It's called being a bum.

christ, you just described me down to the last detail. do you also keep shoes so long that people tell you they look disgusting? do the majority of your socks have holes in them, and yet you don't throw them out because buying new ones would mean having to go to the store? perhaps you and i are making a subculture.

 

[Agent Intellect]

I guess maybe Hacker, Role-playing Gamer and Trekkie describe me best, but those are things I like, not cultures I'm a part of. I think if anybody met me in the street they'd probably get the impression of a young, middle-class, white dude...

you aren't subculture. you are what all the countercultures are countering, you middle-class white male conservative christian! twenty years from now you'll have a white picket fence, a dog, and 2.5 kids!

 

[EloquentBohemian]

I don't consider myself a subculture of one; that would still require the defining of boundaries...

...unless one's unique and solitary subculture is defined by no boundaries.

Of course, a definition of no boundaries is a boundary in itself, so therefore a self-defeating statement and a paradox.

I am, therefore, an enigma unto myself.

 

[Nightingale]

I think part of the reason INTPs may not fit into subcultures very well is because we are reluctant to make hasty pronouncements.

I don't fit in well even with people who agree with me on a given issue because they are likely to accept every aspect of that issue, while I must pick and choose depending on which aspects have solid evidence behind them.

For example, I think there are a couple good reasons not to circumcise the average newborn boy, but you sure as hell won't find me helping out any anti-circumcision activist groups, because they believe in about 12 reasons not to circumcise and I think 10 of those reasons are rooted in hysteria and baloney. I don't think there are many subcultures compatible with critical thinking. Emotional loudmouths tend to steer them.

 

[fullerene]

out of curiosity, what are the good reasons not to circumcise?

 

[Nightingale]

Well... one of the most compelling reasons for me is that not circumcising is a more easily reversible decision. There also doesn't seem to be any evidence to back the popularly-held idea that the foreskin is a completely purposeless structure.

I'm honestly not confident enough in the sources I've seen to commit to defending anything more than that at this point. Even in the medical journal articles I've read, there tends to be an obvious (and often downright unprofessional) bias one way or the other. I guess it's a rare researcher--cut or uncut--who wants to spend time, money, and effort probing the possibility that his genitals might be even ever so slightly inferior to someone else's.

The bottom line for me is that "leaving well enough alone" is a non-act, so I don't think it requires as much justification as hauling out the ol' Plastibell. I think I could spend months of full-time work weeding through the misinformation out there and still come back with heavy doubts, so this is where I've landed.

 

[fullerene]

I guess it's a rare researcher--cut or uncut--who wants to spend time, money, and effort probing the possibility that his genitals might be even ever so slightly inferior to someone else's.

beautiful! That absolutely made my day

oh... and thanks for the answer, too. I was just curious, cause I really hadn't heard anything on the subject before.

 

[NoID10ts]

christ, you just described me down to the last detail. do you also keep shoes so long that people tell you they look disgusting? do the majority of your socks have holes in them, and yet you don't throw them out because buying new ones would mean having to go to the store? perhaps you and i are making a subculture.

Hell yeah! My wife is always lampooning the condition of my socks. They are really just coverings for my ankles and the tops and bottoms of my feet. No toes or heels or anything. And, I usually wear my shoes until the soles begin to peel off. I know its time to buy new shoes when they start clapping as a walk. At that point I'm just calling attention to myself, so I know I need a new pair.

 

[Sapphire Harp]

do you also keep shoes so long that people tell you they look disgusting? do the majority of your socks have holes in them, and yet you don't throw them out because buying new ones would mean having to go to the store?

I guess I'd just say that clothing is clothing until it ceases to effectively function as that... Or it becomes uncomfortable... Or -really- tacky.

As for subculture... does subtle count? Is that a category? What's the closest thing?
​

 

[Waterstiller]

Sorry in advance for the derail..

Well... one of the most compelling reasons for me is that not circumcising is a more easily reversible decision. There also doesn't seem to be any evidence to back the popularly-held idea that the foreskin is a completely purposeless structure.

I could go on forever about why I'm anti-circumcision, but mainly:

No significant benefits
There's a major loss of sensitivity
It's mutilation without the consent of the person

When you're dealing with something in life as important as sexual pleasure/function, it's best to do a little research beforehand. The same argument can be said of intersex babies and genital modification for 'normalization'. As an intersex person (XXY; I don't like discussing it though), my genitalia was a tad smaller than average and so when I was circumcised I lost a HUGE chunk of what was there. I'm next to numb because of circumcision.

(Bitter much? Yes. Yes I am. Religion has permanently ruined so many aspects of my life.)

 

[Sapphire Harp]

No significant benefits
There's a major loss of sensitivity...

(Religion has permanently ruined so many aspects of my life.)

Well, that just figures then. Exactly the sort of thing I would expect to be promoted here in the US.

<Sigh.> I guess it's just one of those things you can be angry about or try to drag on with life.
​

 

[Nightingale]

When you're dealing with something in life as important as sexual pleasure/function, it's best to do a little research beforehand. The same argument can be said of intersex babies and genital modification for 'normalization'. As an intersex person (XXY; I don't like discussing it though), my genitalia was a tad smaller than average and so when I was circumcised I lost a HUGE chunk of what was there. I'm next to numb because of circumcision.

Thanks for being gentle in your response to my post. I realize that part of what I said could have been quite offensive, especially in light of what you've been through, so I appreciate how you gave me the benefit of the doubt.

I agree that the risks associated with circumcision are severe enough to warrant a great deal of research on the part of any parent. Circumcision for cosmetic purposes is taking the whole thing way too lightly. I'm pretty nigh convinced that it's over-recommended (in the US) for medical reasons as well.

 

[Waterstiller]

Thanks for being gentle in your response to my post. I realize that part of what I said could have been quite offensive, especially in light of what you've been through, so I appreciate how you gave me the benefit of the doubt.

I agree that the risks associated with circumcision are severe enough to warrant a great deal of research on the part of any parent. Circumcision for cosmetic purposes is taking the whole thing way too lightly. I'm pretty nigh convinced that it's over-recommended (in the US) for medical reasons as well.

Nah, it was not offensive. I agree with your stance on the issue.

I should have originally mentioned that I also agree with your sentiment about activism and skepticism of most of of activist's arguments and claims.

 

[adastrac]

Re: Sub Culture?

Hm, the group i probably relate to the most would be the Hacker. Read this too. And this of course. Although i am no real programmer, but it is a question of approach/attitude, towards computer technology in specific, but towards most other things as well.

Otherwise i normally can'T find any 'group' with which i could identify myself with (completely). I mean, there are many things from which i at least would agree with parts, but there are few i give total agreement to.

Ogion

I agree. I've always been able to relate to the hacker manifesto... and also this is my all-time absolute favorite: (from Steve Job's Apple ad)

Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently.
They're not fond of rules.
And they have no respect for the status quo.
You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them.
About the only thing you can't do is ignore them.
Because they change things.
They push the human race forward.
And while some may see them as the crazy ones,
We see genius.
Because the people who are crazy enough to think
they can change the world,
Are the ones who do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USn5t5nQWU8

 

[Ogion]

Yes, that is a nice text, though i ignore that it is an Apple ad (You know, having little interest in MS and Apple, being a Linux-guy...)

Ogion

 

[Vexbeast]

A counterculture is a subculture that was made in rebellion. Aside from the traditional punk subculture, further cultures like HXC punk and goth exist because people were specifically not rebelling to the punk subculture. Although I think there are some exceptions...

I'm too tired to be posting...

I was once described as being 'Nu Punk', by a brilliant person who was refusing to call me anything else because they really don't describe me, even in a general sense...

I think it has the implication of traditional punk ethics, without relating to the further subcultures, which hold their own validity, but have been thoroughly bastardized.


Although personally I just tell people I'm freak scene. a) because they don't know what it is, and b) because it wasn't media-raped as much as any other subculture.

 

[gameshow]

Hooray for freak scene!

In high school I had the indie-punk thing going. I bought my clothes from thrift stores, and if they didn't fit, I'd alter them and put patches on them and shit. So I definitely had a nigh-nonfuctioning wardrobe that said a lot about how impoverished and angry I was while screaming against the tyranny of fashion. As far as scenes go, yeah, I hung out with the beatnicks and homeless musicians and went to violent punk shows. So that was me.

And by punk I mean Detroit scene stuff and Mclusky. Please don't confuse me with some sort of oi fan or something. Oh, and I retained some dignity. I at least didn't panhandle.

Nowadays I'm just pseudo-goth, what with not being able to afford shows or risk hurting my drawing hand. That and I bathe and take a little better care of my appearance and wear even more black, as well as enjoying somewhat more classy and dark music. I say pseudo because there isn't a good scene for the goth kids anymore. At least not in Atlanta. And also because my punky roots make me look a little too badass to be a goth girl. I mean, really. Goth girls. Ugh.

Also I still dye my hair stupid colors to compensate for how shy I am. At the moment it is blackish blue. Previously it was cupcake pink. The list goes on.

 

[Zealot]

I don't really fit into any of those subcultures listed in that one Wiki article. I'm just...a computer thriving person I guess. The people I hang out with (including myself) dress sorta Indy-ish.

 

[hopefulmonster]

I was told that I was a geek with sports.

 

[Seducer of the Homeless]

Pretty much like NoID10ts said, I think I look like some averange nobody, maybe somewhat grunge.
I feel like getting clothes and all according to some style would be pretty much like puting a costume, and doing that would feel really stupid. Besides, I listen to many different kind sof music and am interested in many different subjects, should I pick only one? Imposible. Dressing up like a metalhead would feel right while I listen to metal, but then when things like this pop while shuffling my library what do I do, take all the leather off really fast?

Shuffling.............

Immortal, Skyfire, Slayer .................. Kanye West. fuck!

 

[FF]

Counterculture? Naaaahh. You know what? Whatever I like, I'll wear, or I'll listen to, or I'll watch, as long as I don't fit myself into a stereotype. Because I absolutely hate being stereotyped. I just want to get along with everyone as much as possible.

As for regular culture, like popular music, popular TV shows, popular things to wear...most of the time, I could really care less. I mean, I won't deny it if there's a song I absolutely love, and it's mainstream. Sure, I'll listen to it, because I absolutely love it. But if there's a song I only like a little bit, and it's mainstream, I probably won't listen to it. Because it's mainstream. And that's not my style.

In a nutshell, I have no style. I do what I like, and I like what I do, so there.

 

[Ermine]

I'm into counter-counter culture. Why can't I just say "I'm me"?

 

[Zealot]

I'm into counter-counter culture. Why can't I just say "I'm me"?

Everyone who tries to fit into a certain counter-culture should just give up :P. It's best to just be yourself, and not classify yourself.

 

[sagewolf]

I'm counter-culture insofar as I am counter to the idea of belonging to a culture.

...Did that make sense? Essentially, whenever I notice that I'm starting to fit into a mould some way or another, I change something or other about my outward behaviour in order not to fit. If there were a particular culture that adequately explained who I am, then I would gladly accept being part of it: I care more about being me than I do about being seen as unique... but there is no such niche. So i do my best to appear as if I don't belong... because I don't.

 

[Ermine]

I see what you mean. I often change myself just for the sake of being "independent". As soon as I feel like I belong, I have to change, by either leaving the group or changing myself dramatically. You could even say I changed my username for that purpose. As soon as I felt I fit in here as "Fernando_the_weasel", I had to change a bit. It's a silly reason, but I don't know how to do anything else. This goes for anything from my circle of friends to the clothes I wear to my mannerisms and common phrases. It's almost like I'm afraid of letting people get to know me, afraid of stability.