Stuttering & INTPs

[Reverse Transcriptase]

I was reading the 3 pages that Sapphire posted in http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=3659 (quality as usual, saph) and I noticed the passage:

And yet, even thought they know some things must happen of themselves, Rationals dread this loss of control. This is why so many NTs turn out to develop unreasonable fears, especially of germs and other forms of filth, something they have no control over. The Rationals Mark Twain, Nikola Tesla, Howard Hughes, and Buckminster Fuller each developed disease phobias, some of them incapacitating, as in the case of Hughes. And speech is a special problem for the Rationals, who are the most likely of all the types to develop gestural tics when they try to take control of their speech. Though it tends to impair their performance, strength of resolve is of such extreme importance to Rationals that, under stress, they have no choice but to invoke their will and try harder.

Gestural tics- like stuttering. I stuttered when I was young, my INTJ brother stuttered worse, and when my dad (intp?) was young he stuttered too.

It makes sense that the I--P version of rationals would have a worse problem with stuttering, since we naturally can't get into action and are less likely to interact with our environment.

So, INTPs, do you or did you stutter?

I stuttered pretty bad, and I went to speech therapy when I was in 2nd and 3rd grade. I remember being taught to speak in the 'easy' voice, where you don't make your syllables hard, you ease into them. It's hard to describe... I might make a recording of my easy voice if you guys want.

My dad worked through his stuttering, and he's a professional speaker now. There's hope for all of us.

 

[JoeJoe]

I often say the first letter of a word and then have to start that word again. I don't think this counts as stuttering, because it's only one repetition. It also doesn't happen so often (ususally when I am unexpectedly asked a question) and no one has ever said anything about it.

 

[motrhead]

I am like JoeJoe. I will often trip over words, and sometimes start a word, then stop and correct myself. It's like I can't commit myself to say the words. I am either still trying to choose the perfect word, or other times I have started the sentence while my brain has veered off onto another subject, and I lose my train of speech along the way. It does seem like a couple of beers will slow down my thoughts a bit, and then I can speak quite eloquently. I relax, and everything comes naturally. It is strange.

 

[zephryi]

Pretty much the same sorts of things as JoeJoe and motrhead. I often stumble through a word, often merging it into a different word halfway through because I stop thinking about my actual speaking. This also sometimes causes me to drop a word or few from a sentence, leaving people quite baffled. XD However, I've never stuttered, as far as I can remember.

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

I sometimes trip over words or start one sentence and finish another. I attribute it to my mouth being slower than my brain. It's not stuttering (so I voted no) but it could be related to the cause of stuttering.

 

[Kuu]

I fourth JoeJoe, motrhead and zephryi's posts. It is as if I can process words faster than I can vocalize them, which makes the whole act of speaking like gridlock... Can't call that stuttering though. Interestingly enough, it seems I have two modes of speech: (1) extremely thoughtful, correct, very paused and somewhat spaced out, and (2) very fast, half-baked with constant repetition/rephrasing, sentence-merge, trampled grammar, dropping words. There seems to be no middle ground between these two.

 

[Fedayeen]

To add to what tekton said, when I think things in my head (obviously) everything is so quick and crisp, putting that into words is like it slows down my brain, not just the pronounciation, but what I am going to say, even if I have gone over it in my head a thousand times, once it comes to words its no good.

and I have done this while recording into a mic. I thought of exactly what I wanted to say over and over in my head, then I went to say them out loud into the mic, and it was totally different. couldn't think about what I wanted to say nearly as well

 

[Ermine]

Dang... I thought I was the only one. I have the same issue as everyone else who posted. It's not stuttering, per se, but I end up doing all sorts of things such as repeating the first syllable of words, talking in an incoherent manner to the point that I have to start over and say what I was saying is a different way, butchering the pronunciation of a word because I was kind of tentative about using the word, all sorts of stuff. My mind is much faster than my mouth, and I'm a bit tentative and just have to choose the right word to use for everything. My large vocabulary is a blessing and a curse.

It's gotten a bit better since I started debate, but I'm still working at it. At least I've gone a long way from being forced to see a speech therapist in elementary school when my mouth was way out of sync with my mind.

 

[meshram.alok]

It's the same here. In search of a better word or a beautiful, efficient sentence, I often fumble in between a word or a sentence and mix it all up. It often confounds the Sensing people around me, but my ENTP friend understands what I meant to say at the very beginning.

Though I don't think I stutter, I get confused.

There are times, though when I speak very efficiently and coherently if I leave behind my search for good words or sentence forms or if I've good knowledge of what I'm speaking and focusing on content rather than form. That's helped me a lot during my seminars.

P.S. If you were to give a Seminar, give a good form and flow to what you're presenting - it's a very entertaining thing (for INTPs) since it involves thinking from the point of view of an outsider.

 

[echoplex]

I'm amazed that others don't seem to care how idiotic I sound when I talk. It's like I'm terrified of saying the wrong thing. What's weird is that there are times when I'm quite eloquent, but others when I wish I could just type the words I'm trying to say. Where does the eloquence go, dammit?!

I'm voting 'other' 'cause I'm really not sure. whatever I do, it didn't start until my teen years, which seems unlikely of stuttering.

 

[walfin]

Never stuttered in my life before, though I've always been "terrified of saying the wrong thing" as well (I usually end up saying the "wrong thing" anyway. ). The former might not necessarily be linked to the latter.

 

[zephryi]

Interestingly enough, it seems I have two modes of speech: (1) extremely thoughtful, correct, very paused and somewhat spaced out, and (2) very fast, half-baked with constant repetition/rephrasing, sentence-merge, trampled grammar, dropping words.

That is it perfectly! Thank you, seriously.

...whenever I'm speaking in the latter style, people tend to look at me very oddly, perhaps because it usually accompanies excitement. XD

 

[JoeJoe]

Ouuhh, I just thought of another habit of mine.

When someone else talks, I think of something, that I want to say in response. But then I wait, until the other person is finished and my mind goes on. When the person is finished I signal, that I want to say something ("umm...", "hey..." etc.) but my mind is processing other things and it takes a few seconds until I can really say what I want to.
People often laugh at me because I take so long.

 

[Xel]

Sometimes I find myself flubbing up words if I'm nervous or trying too hard to do it right. In order to do it right I shouldn't try to do it right lol.

 

[motrhead]

When someone else talks, I think of something, that I want to say in response. But then I wait, until the other person is finished and my mind goes on. When the person is finished I signal, that I want to say something ("umm...", "hey..." etc.) but my mind is processing other things and it takes a few seconds until I can really say what I want to.
People often laugh at me because I take so long.

Just wait until you are old like me, and you totally lose what you were waiting to say. I sometimes worry about my memory, but other useless information still comes readily to mind, so apparently I'm not going senile...

 

[RubberDucky451]

Like most others that have posted i struggle to find the right words most of the time. If i was given 2 minutes to stop time i would be able to give a concise and beautifully worded answer.

 

[Anling]

I've never stuttered, but I too, have problems translating thoughts into spoken words. It's so frustrating sometimes to have to restart sentences or paragraphs because the words somehow ended up all jumbled.

 

[brain enclosed in flesh]

Yup, all of this, especially what Tekton said. I either sound like a Valley Girl on coke or a stoned dictionary.

 

[Waterstiller]

^ L O L


I have two modes. One where I'm trying to figure out the best words to translate my thought (which is extremely slow going). The other is when I tap into my muse and completely shut out the other person so I can rapidly identify and connect all the points that have been made in the conversation and give a theory as to why that is as well as link to other ideas and questions. My grammar, pace, and vocabulary are (to me) flawless. Sometimes I surprise myself by using a word I haven't used or read in years. I can also *actually* tell a story in this second mode. It's only possible to go there when I feel safe - both with the people I'm speaking to and what I'm talking about.

But my usual speech is broken and hesitant, and I often fall back on silence. I give up too easily to stutter - I have stuttered in the past if I was frustrated and needed to get a thought out. Or a confrontation with someone who wasn't being rational at all. I'm usually more 'defeated' than 'frustrated' though; more likely to retreat and cry than stutter.

Has anyone found that it's much easier to speak if you're impersonating someone or putting on a character? I could *totally* be a Jungle Cruise tour guide at Disneyland, for instance.

 

[brain enclosed in flesh]

Has anyone found that it's much easier to speak if you're impersonating someone or putting on a character? I could *totally* be a Jungle Cruise tour guide at Disneyland, for instance.

Yes, very much so. That's why I talked like Ringo Starr when I was a teeny kid and a valley girl when I was a mid-sized kid and why I pick up foreign accents or other people's speech patterns and mannerisms, sometimes even their interests. It's the easiest way for me to interact with people I don't know all that well- or people I don't want to reveal my true self to- not that I typically do this consciously; it just happens.

 

[Ermine]

Has anyone found that it's much easier to speak if you're impersonating someone or putting on a character? I could *totally* be a Jungle Cruise tour guide at Disneyland, for instance.

YES. However, I haven't tried acting like other people or characters. I usually use this technique with myself. I find it's much easier for me to speak when I have a clear image of who and what I am. MBTI has helped me so much in that aspect. While I may be cheating myself by sticking to 1 of 16 types, it does wonders for my speaking ability, and therefore my self esteem. Over time, my self image also gets more complex and more like me. I also think up archetypes for my self that I use for different situations. It's the main way I take advantage of the typical "chameleon" behavior INTPs tend to exhibit.

This is part of why I want to try acting. I, and others, tell me that I wouldn't do so well because of my speaking issues. But I still want to try out this theory and totally get absorbed in a character.

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

Ermine, what kind of archetypes do you use? It'd be really interesting to hear some of them. I've thought about different roles but I've never been able to differentiate between one role and another very well. (Except for the obvious changes depending on who i'm talking to: gf, friends, strangers, professionals)

 

[The Sky Fell]

I'm pretty sure I never stuttered growing up but lately it's becoming more and more frequent. I'm not sure if this is a unusual occurrence or not. I haven't bothered looking into it.
Though it's rather annoying when I'm trying to make a point or contribute some valid information to a conversation.

 

[LucielaMinerva]

Had an extremely bad case of stuttering and stammering and I was VERY VERY self conscious of it. I took control of it, though, as I grew up. I practiced speaking in front of a mirror. (Don’t laugh). Also, it helped that I used to have conversations with myself and learnt to control the anxiety a little. I tend to be nervous when speaking with people and when I speak or have something I wish to share with someone, I get so absorbed in letting it all out that I speak extremely quickly so that I do not forget it, ending up breathless and red faced. LOL.

I have a theory: because we do a lot of thinking in our minds, the mental functions work in overdrive. Of course there is the physiological price to pay too- increased heart rate, therefore increased temperature, which may stimulate the production of adrenaline in small amounts, therefore leading to an overproduction of hormones, chemicals to support neuron activity, leading our physiological body into a state of distress the bombarding of our physical functions with too many responses stresses our motor functions, therefore interfering with our motor abilities of speech, thus we stutter.

Perhaps it is a coping mechanism that is trying to tell the mind to slow down?

Anyway, it’s just a theory; I don’t really know the science of motor functions as I’m no neurologist!

but I'm most probably wrong though lol.

 

[Sapphire Harp]

This thread reminded me that I had speech coaching way back in elementary… I hardly ever think about it now. I can’t remember for the life of me what landed me in it; I didn’t notice any difficulties with my speaking at that time… (oblivious to the obvious, per usual…)

I still have the difficulties, really… I’ve found they mostly come out when I’m unsure of how my thought or idea is going to be received. Naturally, the better I know an audience, the more fluid it will be… And I do believe that was true back with that speech coach, those fifteen years ago…

Also, I recently discovered that my friend’s wife from college is an INTP and she, too, has a very pronounced difficulty with speaking… It sounds like the usual kind, but it’s very difficult to tell.

Ermine’s talk about acting as herself or an archetype reminded of something… I’ve found my difficulties with clear speaking have an awful lot to do with subject matter… The absolute worst being about myself. Generally, when asked to say something about myself, I almost always run into a wall after the third sentence. If any topic is going to bring out my difficulties - it’s myself.

Sometimes I think it would be possible to lessen these difficulties by spending time in the practice of speaking… for example reading poetry and recording it, then playing it back… Although, on the other hand, I don’t actually think so… I think the difficulty is mostly an expression of the mind…? We can’t speak well because we’re not done improving what we’re going to say?

(Restoring a crash-removed post… somewhat. It’s a bit lazily done. Still, RT - I think it's a very good topic to have caught and revealed, since we seem to share so much on it.)
​

 

[Jennywocky]

I don't stutter, but my best friend (also INTP) stuttered a lot as a child and occasionally gets stuck on words now when we're on the phone together.

I do occasionally get stuck in the middle of a sentence where my thoughts shoot off in four different directions at once and my mouth keeps moving but my brain can't figure out which direction to go.

 

[Ermine]

Ermine, what kind of archetypes do you use? It'd be really interesting to hear some of them. I've thought about different roles but I've never been able to differentiate between one role and another very well. (Except for the obvious changes depending on who i'm talking to: gf, friends, strangers, professionals)

I pretty much change myself to fit various scenarios. For example, when I was job hunting and/or working, I put on a persona somewhat like an ISTJ. Quiet, punctual, matter of factly with a great work ethic. When I was debating, I deliberately tried to get more talkative, resolute, and flex my Te more along with the Ti, more ENTJ. When someone's confiding in me, I go into the concerned helpful friend mode, kind of INFP while still keeping the objective Ti perspective. I create a character that would be equipped for the situation and use it to do the talking and let the INTP do the thinking. It usually works well, though I really want to get myself in a situation where my default INTP would be best equipped. Half the time it doesn't feel like I have a real place in this world.

I would need some practice for being me first. I have the same issue as Sapphire when it comes to talking about myself. Questions about my self make me freeze and utter vague half hearted answers just so they'll stop asking about me.

Also, I'm still feeling slightly guilty about this. To those who it may concern, I actually wrote something down for me to say before I talked in the snapvine box thread. Otherwise I would have been stumbling all over the place in my recording.

 

[Anling]

Has anyone found that it's much easier to speak if you're impersonating someone or putting on a character? I could *totally* be a Jungle Cruise tour guide at Disneyland, for instance.

Yes. I find it much easier to speak freely when I know what role I am supposed to be playing. As in I no longer have trouble teaching the sunday school class because I know that role. I know what information I'm supposed to impart and mostly I'm just supposed to get the other people talking. But throw me into something I've never done before or I don't know what is expected of me and I flounder. Try to get me to talk to unknown people (even some known ones) from a deeper level than the role I am fulfilling and I flounder. Especially don't ask me to tell you about myself. My mind goes blank; I've no idea what you actually want to hear about/ are asking.

I suppose I use defined roles as a buffer between myself and the rest of the world.

 

[Sapphire Harp]

Yes. I find it much easier to speak freely when I know what role I am supposed to be playing. As in I no longer have trouble teaching the sunday school class because I know that role. I know what information I'm supposed to impart and mostly I'm just supposed to get the other people talking.

I suppose I use defined roles as a buffer between myself and the rest of the world.

How much, do you suppose, other people and types are doing just the same? Endlessly repeating scripted conversations… It makes it something of a wonder when two people get off the well-worn paths… which are so often about someone getting something, aren’t they?

It reminds me of a inspiring scene from Waking Life…

All communication simply to keep this ant colony buzzing along in an efficient, polite manner:
"Here's your change."
"Paper or plastic?"
"Credit or debit?"
I don’t want a straw - I want real human moments!
​

And yet… I’m part of a general trend among INTPs which finds these moments without substance more comfortable because they’re so clear and easy to navigate… But you get to a moment where expectations are unclear and you get:​

But throw me into something I've never done before or I don't know what is expected of me and I flounder. Try to get me to talk to unknown people (even some known ones) from a deeper level than the role I am fulfilling and I flounder. Especially don't ask me to tell you about myself. My mind goes blank; I've no idea what you actually want to hear about are asking.

Is there a self-depricating trend in this…? A fear of telling others something they don’t want to hear, or are uninterested in?

A question for pondering… why focus on what they’re interested in all the time? Why does it never seem a focus on what we’re interested in?I’m thinking this pattern is something growing out of deference and trying to go with the flow, but pretty much completely failing…
​