Strong Fe

[JansenDowel]

Anyone here have a well developed Fe but totally non existent Si? What do you think the cause of such a situation might be?

 

[DIALECTIC]

Anyone here have a well developed Fe but totally non existent Si? What do you think the cause of such a situation might be?

How old are you ? If you are under 30, then i think it is pretty normal. The tertiary function (Si, for us INTPs) starts manifesting in your 30s, at age 40 it should be fully implemented all being well in your own psychic development (no fixation for whatever reasons). The 4th function (Fe, for us INTP's) constantly plays tug of war with the 1st function, i guess it is as strong as Ti is... When Fe is / seems actually very strong, it is because Ti is potentially just as strong and being inhibited, until it is exhibited ("return of the oppressed").

If you think your Fe is well developped (which technically shouldn't be the case for an INTP unless you are older) maybe then it is because you are into a too reactive environment in which you have to express your feelings more than to introvert your thinking in order to survive... That was my case for a long time sadly.

If you want to develop Si, you just need to do Introverted Sensing activities like meditation, sports, getting interested in history, cleaning and ordering, practical thinking (like using / recycling old stuff, etc.), etc. It takes time and like exercising a new muscle, it gets better and stronger and make the whole system a lot more efficient.

 

[Architect]

I've come to believe it's impossible to have a well developed inferior. No matter what you do, at root it'll still be infantile. At best we can build a support structure around it in our psyche, which is what we mistake for maturing it. I've seen this in myself and my ISTP brother. We both come off as urbane and caring (when needed), but it's a fake compared to a dominant Fe user. We just learned the motions and persona.

Si? It's there, probably stronger than you believe, but Fe is so immature and wailing/crying for attention you just don't see your tertiary in the cacophony. It'll become more obvious over time.

 

[DIALECTIC]

come off as urbane and caring (when needed), but it's a fake compared to a dominant Fe user. We just learned the motions and persona.

Sadly, i agree. :-)

 

[StevenM]

I've come to believe it's impossible to have a well developed inferior. No matter what you do, at root it'll still be infantile.

it's a fake compared to a dominant Fe user. We just learned the motions and persona.

I also agree with it always being in inferior. All functions will be following in the dominant's footsteps.

However, I wouldn't go so far as to say Fe is completely fake. Just unmanageable, and hard to reign control of. It is almost as though it had a mind of it's own.

Fe tells you what to wear. It tells you how others will judge you based on your style.

It tells you when you are too quiet, when your too loud, when your coming off as creepy. It tells you when others are happy, or if they are disappointed. It tells you if someone likes or dislikes you. It tells you if you like or dislike someone. It tells you what is wrong, and what is right.

It makes you excited, and it makes you cry. It gives you incentives.

Of course, it isn't a conscious judgement, it's hard to make changes with it. It's difficult to manipulate and effect the way you want. But none-the-less, an IxTP values it, and tries to obey by it.

*****************

I find when putting conscious control over it, that is when it becomes fake. For our type, it just needs to flow from where-ever the hell it comes from, and let it be without resistance. This is where it gains it's true genuine character.

 

[Architect]

However, I wouldn't go so far as to say Fe is completely fake. Just unmanageable, and hard to reign control of. It is almost as though it had a mind of it's own.

I think we agree, and I didn't say it's completely fake, just that it's a faker. It's like a child pretending to be an adult. There's a little adult there, a kernel of an adult, but not the real thing. I don't mean fake in the sense of being entirely false. The inferior has real <whatever> - Fe in our case, it's just uncontrolled, magnified and so on. In particular it's not strong. A person doesn't want to experience their inferior for long periods of time. For example I get uncomfortable with strong emotions, like immediately, and want to go back to my computer. A Fe dominant is the opposite.

The concept is captured in the meaning of infantile, which is desires without abilities. The immature want without knowing how to get, which results in magnified desires (the Puer Aeternis of Von Franz). So developing the inferior is a misnomer, you're not developing the inferior itself but filtering out its demands. The inferior still has magnified and childish desires, and no amount of work seems to be able to do anything about it.

 

[MellifluousSky]

I think we agree, and I didn't say it's completely fake, just that it's a faker. It's like a child pretending to be an adult. There's a little adult there, a kernel of an adult, but not the real thing. I don't mean fake in the sense of being entirely false. The inferior has real <whatever> - Fe in our case, it's just uncontrolled, magnified and so on. In particular it's not strong. A person doesn't want to experience their inferior for long periods of time. For example I get uncomfortable with strong emotions, like immediately, and want to go back to my computer. A Fe dominant is the opposite.

The concept is captured in the meaning of infantile, which is desires without abilities. The immature want without knowing out to get, which results in magnified desires (the Puer Aeternis of Von Franz). So developing the inferior is a misnomer, you're not developing the inferior itself but filtering out its demands. The inferior still has magnified and childish desires, and no amount of work seems to be able to do anything about it.

Ditto for Se vs. Ni. I think there is an aphorism that goes: "No matter where you go, there you are." I think that applies here. I see the functions in mostly the same way, namely: adult, adolescent, child and infant. I don't know how long you have been studying the cognitive functions but I am developing opinions that are similar to yours as far as the development of inferior and subconscious functions. It really perturbs me when I see CF tests presented (on Facebook usually) with 7 of 8 functions all being moderately expressed, along with one dominant function. I get further perturbed when it is posited by some that dominant Ti will manifest itself (externally) in the same way as Se or Te dominant (think ESTJ-Enneagram 5). I enjoy your posts.

 

[manishboy]

I would qualify the preceding by adding that "fake" doesn't mean disingenuous from the user's perspective. There's simply nothing behind the persona to back it up. Example: As a younger programmer I would to get into trouble on projects by playing the role of the hero. I would enthusiastically promise some deliverable and the client would be thrilled. But in the comfort of my workspace, I couldn't find the motivation to actually deliver. So yes it's fake but not from the POV of the user, and that's the problem. If you believe it, Fe will Fu.

So far (I'm 38), I've not developed Fe enough to make it stable (non-fake), only to wield it better as a persona generator. It's a useful ability so long as I don't take it too far and make decisions based on the persona's desires.

 

[Architect]

Ditto for Se vs. Ni.

Or Ni vs Se as in the INFJ (maybe that's what you meant). I see it with my INFJ wife with an Se inferior. She desires a certain physical world. Good hair, good physique, clean house, everything ordered and just so, but has a terrible time actually getting it. I'm better at cleaning up than she is. And she'll make a terrific disgusting mess in the bathroom say, and blame it on "well there's no organization system for all this stuff (dental, makeup, etc) so I just give up and <act like a slob>". That's pure infantile inferior.

Which is interesting as Se is off in my 'nether stack', Beebe's shadow stack. How can I do it better? I don't like strong Se activities and they drain me, but I've learned how to do them and attach no emotion to it. Just get it done.

I don't know how long you have been studying the cognitive functions but I am developing opinions that are similar to yours as far as the development of inferior and subconscious functions.

Maybe 10 years. Unsatisfied with vanilla PUM preferences I moved on to the functions and have been studying them deeply since. Maybe you haven't seen my theories on this but I don't think we can develop any of the functions. I suspect that the actual functions are hardwired motivations in our cortex. The neocortex can learn, and develops behaviors, memory and our personality, but our true desires come from our type which motivates all this. If you like you can then say there are sympathetic functions in our neocortex which mirror the cortex functions - fine, but they should have a different name to make it clear.

At any rate I think at root the functions based on the preferences which are information streams in the cortex. So an E is a person who can handle lots of extrasensory information, and an I is one who can't, and so forth.

 

[nearfantastica]

If you are under 30, then i think it is pretty normal. The tertiary function (Si, for us INTPs) starts manifesting in your 30s, at age 40 it should be fully implemented

I don't think that's the case at all. I've always had fairly well developed Si. It sometimes manifests itself unhealthily - as neuroses, for example - but it's there nonetheless.

For Fe, maybe. I imagine that takes a long time to become better balanced.

 

[MellifluousSky]

Or Ni vs Se as in the INFJ (maybe that's what you meant). I see it with my INFJ wife with an Se inferior. She desires a certain physical world. Good hair, good physique, clean house, everything ordered and just so, but has a terrible time actually getting it. I'm better at cleaning up than she is. And she'll make a terrific disgusting mess in the bathroom say, and blame it on "well there's no organization system for all this stuff (dental, makeup, etc) so I just give up and <act like a slob>". That's pure infantile inferior.

Which is interesting as Se is off in my 'nether stack', Beebe's shadow stack. How can I do it better? I don't like strong Se activities and they drain me, but I've learned how to do them and attach no emotion to it. Just get it done.

Maybe 10 years. Unsatisfied with vanilla PUM preferences I moved on to the functions and have been studying them deeply since. Maybe you haven't seen my theories on this but I don't think we can develop any of the functions. I suspect that the actual functions are hardwired motivations in our cortex. The neocortex can learn, and develops behaviors, memory and our personality, but our true desires come from our type which motivates all this. If you like you can then say there are sympathetic functions in our neocortex which mirror the cortex functions - fine, but they should have a different name to make it clear.

At any rate I think at root the functions based on the preferences which are information streams in the cortex. So an E is a person who can handle lots of extrasensory information, and an I is one who can't, and so forth.

Ni-Se is what I meant yes. Curiously, I have trouble with clutter, especially in a bathroom. I can have "organized" clutter in my room though. It may be more to do with my mother, who always kept things in order and would rail if they were not. She was constantly cleaning and putting things away. I know some of that rubbed off. I have to say though, that living alone, you can set it and forget it...my living room is like a museum. I don't have any pictures of family...sort of like the shadow gallery in V for Vendetta...definitely a taste for aesthetics. My Se focus is mostly all or nothing though, even at 45. I take full advantage of a stopwatch at work. Even so, when I'm deep into understanding something, any Se is overwhelming and I can feel Ni dragging me back to home base...ain't no messing with the dominant function.

 

[onesteptwostep]

I wouldn't say it's that our Fe is fake, I'd say it's just more controlled.

I think I'm also understanding Si in a superficial way... isn't it really just, well not 'just' but, just really making use of past memories? How can you not have that developed? Lots of things I do or experience can be related to things or concepts. In some ways it's the same thing as 'experience', no?

 

[Architect]

My Se focus is mostly all or nothing though, even at 45.

Late 40's here too ... so you're an INFJ I take it? Yeah the inferior is an "all or nothing" affair too.

 

[Fukyo]

Anyone here have a well developed Fe but totally non existent Si? What do you think the cause of such a situation might be?

Being an INFJ that wants to be an INTP.

 

[The Limitless One]

I've come to believe it's impossible to have a well developed inferior. No matter what you do, at root it'll still be infantile. At best we can build a support structure around it in our psyche, which is what we mistake for maturing it. I've seen this in myself and my ISTP brother. We both come off as urbane and caring (when needed), but it's a fake compared to a dominant Fe user. We just learned the motions and persona.

Si? It's there, probably stronger than you believe, but Fe is so immature and wailing/crying for attention you just don't see your tertiary in the cacophony. It'll become more obvious over time.

Does anyone else read this guys post in the 'Architects' voice?

 

[QuickTwist]

Oh, I'm going to like you.

 

[The Limitless One]

Oh, I'm going to like you.

Ha! Lets just not get banned.

 

[Jennywocky]

Does anyone else read this guys post in the 'Architects' voice?

IOh, Helmut Bakaitis had such the perfect persona (voice and appearance).

It's too bad Gloria Foster conked off before the last movie. "Same reason. I love candy." We're all here to do what we're all here to do.

 

[Ex-User (8886)]

you can be INFJ;

I have good enought Fe for my age, because of ESFJ mother :x
It's weakness in many cases, I'm very idealistic because of it and also artistic; But Fe is under my Ti fortunetly
opposite to you, I can notice in myself Si;

 

[MellifluousSky]

Late 40's here too ... so you're an INFJ I take it? Yeah the inferior is an "all or nothing" affair too.

Yeah...INFJ...more Ti than Fe these days, as I am pretty reclusive. 36 years of alone time...more Chess time than my 9 years of total SO relationship time. So Ti might be drawing nearer to Fe. I found a nice depiction of the four stages of Ti...from dominant to inferior. Pretty cool, you might get a chuckle or two as an INTP:

http://funkymbtifiction.tumblr.com/post/94166840164/how-ti-acts-in-all-4-positions

 

[JansenDowel]

Being an INFJ that wants to be an INTP.

Nah, introverted thinking is definitely my strong point. But Ne and Fe are tied. Anyway, I was alluding to the inadequacies of the MBTI system.

 

[Fukyo]

"inadequacies in the system"

Yeah, that's what they always say when they can't figure out their type or their ego isn't satisfied with what's offered.

 

[Pyropyro]

"inadequacies in the system"

Yeah, that's what they always say when they can't figure out their type or their ego isn't satisfied with what's offered.

INFJ's seems to be awesome. They're quite scary when you piss them off too.

 

[JansenDowel]

"inadequacies in the system"

Yeah, that's what they always say when they can't figure out their type or their ego isn't satisfied with what's offered.

Wow, no need to be nasty ahole about it. Also, i'm not confused.

 

[QuickTwist]

"inadequacies in the system"

Yeah, that's what they always say when they can't figure out their type or their ego isn't satisfied with what's offered.

Wow, no need to be nasty ahole about it. Also, i'm not confused.

I had the exact opposite reaction. Its good to see that spiteful come out once in a while.

 

[JansenDowel]

I had the exact opposite reaction. Its good to see that spiteful come out once in a while.

Why? It reflects negatively on your character.

 

[QuickTwist]

Why? It reflects negatively on your character.

Pshh I don't care about that.

 

[nanook]

If "using Si" means doing detail oriented work that is inspired by subjective demands or subjective enthusiasm, such as setting up your computer for geeky needs, inventing custom paint/photo-shop brushes, skinning your mp3 player, writing a script to automate things, then it's something that JiNe types can develop passion for but also loose or give up entirely, depending on motivation.

If you take Si into a more embodied context, such as doing x repetitions of exercise y every day and counting calories it's even more unlikely that Ji types can muster up the patience.

The more you want to approach live in active conscious Ne manner, go out and use social and spiritual possibilities (instead of only using Ne unconsciously as a source of intellectual stimulation, as Ti prefers), the more impatient you become with your software toys or daily chores that require conscious attention, as opposed to unconscious Si routines like eating the same shit every day.

And going out and approaching possibilities of life can be interpreted as having a strong Je (Fe for intp) motivation.

What if you travel and live in hotels. say good by to Si. you can count the patterns on the tapestry, if you want and spin off the pattern in your mind, it's Si, but it doesn't make a "strong" or "conscious" impression. i bet you want to leave the hotel room and go for a walk or into a bar.

In contrast entirely-passive Si, in the form of subjective aesthetic sensibilities or preferences, is never lost, but frequently ignored. my understanding is that we can live in a garbage can without noticing, while we enjoy that favorite tumblr. being ignorant of the trash can that is our room is perhaps in part itself a feature of Si, selective attention, merely motivated by Ne, but we use it more than Si dominant individuals.

 

[JansenDowel]

Pshh I don't care about that.

So your a douchbag? Glad you cleared that up for me.

@nanook, are you trying to tell me that my Fe is actually Ne?

 

[nanook]

I explore the hypothetical scenario in the original post.
As i implied, judgement will motivate what sort of perception you will indulge in.
Within your spectrum of possible perceptions.
Extroverted Judgement (Fe) can pull you into "the world" (interaction, Pe).
Another example for Je motivation would be participation into a political cause.
Demonstrating on the streets.
Perception in itself doesn't do anything, it only shapes how you do things.

I'm not trying to tell you anything about you.

 

[QuickTwist]

So your a douchbag? Glad you cleared that up for me.

I'm not a douche bag, you just don't know me yet.

 

[WALKYRIA]

I can say that I have overused Fe these days: ad yes, basically it's fake Fe( you put on a n Fe mask, but people see trhought it.. HE's nice, polite but bit weird they'll say !)... but functionally different from Fe in an ESFJ.

One wuold say that I'm a nice INTP because I'm nice and polite and enthousiasm... But still people feel that it's not genuine and you older INTPs cant deny it.. but again who cares if Fe( or the nice and compassionate personna) is overfaked, as long as it works that's the more important thing.
It's crazy how people respond very well to Ne-Fe mix!!!

 

[TheManBeyond]

If "using Si" means doing detail oriented work that is inspired by subjective demands or subjective enthusiasm, such as setting up your computer for geeky needs, inventing custom paint/photo-shop brushes, skinning your mp3 player, writing a script to automate things, then it's something that JiNe types can develop passion for but also loose or give up entirely, depending on motivation.

I just don't have the patiente but mostly i lack the interest.
But even with things that i'm really interested about, like composing, recording, and mastering music i complitely lack the patience to play around with plugins to find the right way to make the mix sound better. I can't understand how sound engineers can notice what is lacking a mix, like reduce some frequency at 375hz or add some treshold + realese at 1.7... there are tons of possible combiations that in my view at the end lead to almost imperceptible changes on the quality of the sound. Like my Te is like fuck it, lets put stuff simple.
Also motivation comes rarely and runs away faster than the movements of my body. Ha, motivation makes you move, there's the trick.

If you take Si into a more embodied context, such as doing x repetitions of exercise y every day and counting calories it's even more unlikely that Ji types can muster up the patience.

Funily i found out that x repetitions of exercise x day are only possible if i set my self to go outside my house and enter a gym. Anyway i feel extremely tired until i start the work out. There are days where i'm doubting if going or staying, i try really hard. Even in the gym i'm like, well i could skip this last repetition for *random justification*.
I tried the calories thing as well, didn't work. I gave up in a matter of 2 weeks. Still i think i resisted for a long time.

In contrast entirely-passive Si, in the form of subjective aesthetic sensibilities or preferences, is never lost, but frequently ignored. my understanding is that we can live in a garbage can without noticing, while we enjoy that favorite tumblr. being ignorant of the trash can that is our room is perhaps in part itself a feature of Si, selective attention, merely motivated by Ne, but we use it more than Si dominant individuals.

I live in the complete shit but it gets to the point where i wish it was everything cleaner, i'm just unable to clean it. It is like where functions definitions overlap. It is not that i'm not bothered byt it but i'm able to partially ignore it, anyway on top of everything is the fact that i cba to clean it up.

 

[Rainer]

I feel like I have a pretty well-developed Fe, but if I am not careful it can indeed be infantile and all-or-nothing. Either that, or what I imagine to be my Fe really is Fi--whenever I take the cognitive functions tests, my Fi is way stronger than Fe (usually 2nd place after Ti, or 3rd after Ti and Ni). Fe is usually most of the way to the bottom, only above Se maybe.

Yeah, I know you cognitive function purists will complain that I can't possibly have strong Ti and Fi at the same time...

 

[Jennywocky]

Yeah, I know you cognitive function purists will complain that I can't possibly have strong Ti and Fi at the same time...

It's a practical issue, not something you can just dismiss as "purism." (which is basically what you're doing by labeling it as some kind of irrational adherence to an idea rather than an inherent dilemma in definitions.)

If MBTI is about prioritizing function approach (so that we have instinctive preferences), and Ti = decisions through detachment and Fi = decisions through attachments... then how does that work? How can you prefer both simultaneously?

If you can explain the mechanism there of two contradictory processes somehow being instinctively compatible, feel free to explain. I can't. (My personal experience is that making decisions via my attachments was a process that I had to work hard at, it was not at all instinctive for me)