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Sterilization

Minuend

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So, anyone here considered this?

I am currently very close to be being old enough (25). The more I think about it, the more sense it makes.

In the past my only motivation for having a child would be to satisfy my curiosity concerning how my own genes and behaviour would influence it. But this is not exactly a good reason to bring a child into the world.

I've shared some of my thoughts on the continuation of humans in general here

As I am now, I have a rather -avoid avoid- relationships with babies. When my family is trying to pressure me into holding my sister in law's baby, I just stare at them like this But if I should find myself wanting something like that later on, I could always be a foster home or adopt. And yes, I know getting to adopt is rather a difficult process, but I doubt there will ever be a point in my life where my happiness will be dependant on having a small gooey thing to look after. I could always get a dog.

I don't see any logical reasons to breed.
 

Puffy

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I wouldn't personally, as I see it it just removes a future possibility, where if you don't want kids you don't need to have them either way. What are your reasons for: preventing accidental pregnancy?
 

snafupants

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Minuend, you have my unconditional permission to get your tubes tied. More people should be as responsible as you've shown yourself to be here today. Well done, girl. :^^:
 

own8ge

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Minuend Come here, spread your legs... and let the baby making begin! :storks:

An unborn child, is a death child. :rip:

Does that even make sense? Idk :confused:
I love you though :rolleyes:
Do you like me using a lot of emoticons, or is it annoying? :smiley_emoticons_mr
Well well, I'm out of here, On my Bird.:king-twitter:
Woeps, I meant on my elephant. My bird doesn't walk :elephant:
 

Inappropriate Behavior

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Minuend Come here, spread your legs... and let the baby making begin! :storks:

An unborn child, is a death child. :rip:

Does that even make sense? Idk :confused:
I love you though :rolleyes:
Do you like me using a lot of emoticons, or is it annoying? :smiley_emoticons_mr
Well well, I'm out of here, On my Bird.:king-twitter:
Woeps, I meant on my elephant. My bird doesn't walk :elephant:

I have not read all 239 (at the time I write this) of your posts own, but of the ones I have, this is by far my favorite.

The OP comes as a bit of a shock to me, as I've thought over the past 3 and a half years that Minuend wanted to have my baby. If I've been wrong about this, what else have I been wrong about these last few years? (plenty! beat you to it)

On a serious note, I don't care very much about the fate of humanity. If it wants to keep on keeping on, fine by me. Me and my genes are out of the picture so as a result I'm sure future generations are going to suffer greatly for it. (I seem to have lost the "serious note" somewhere)
 

Cavallier

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When it comes to making babies it seems as if it's relatively easy to stay fertile but not get pregnant. However I have a friend who got pregnant twice when using hormonal (The Pill) birth control properly. The second time she opted to get her tubes tied. She just couldn't trust it wouldn't happen. Poor girl, she had those two babies within 16 months of each other.

On the other hand I've been sexually active for a long time and never used anything other than a rubber and never had any issues.

So that is something to consider. I probably would not do it for the simple reason that I don't like surgery. If there was a painless surgery free way of doing it I might consider it.

I completely identify with not wanting to have anything to do with other people's babies. The office ladies I work with always go on and on about how cute babies are. They get excited about things related to babies like clothes and toys. I feel nothing. Puppies are cute babies are not.

I think INTP mothers must be an interesting breed. Oh teh puns.
 

Cognisant

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Not that I want to bias you against it, I've considered sterilization myself (redundant as that may be) just don't do anything rash, have a backup plan, freeze some ovarian tissue, personally babies horrify me too but the idea of an impressionable mini me running around has some appeal, I wouldn't want to deny my future self that choice.

Wouldn't matter much if I did, still better foresight than hindsight and all that.
 

Duxwing

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Not that I want to bias you against it, I've considered sterilization myself (redundant as that may be) just don't do anything rash, have a backup plan, freeze some ovarian tissue, personally babies horrify me too but the idea of an impressionable mini me running around has some appeal, I wouldn't want to deny my future self that choice.

Wouldn't matter much if I did, still better foresight than hindsight and all that.

Awwwww.

-Duxwing
 

TriflinThomas

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Go for it. There's always adoption if you change your mind.
 

Duxwing

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Go for it. There's always adoption if you change your mind.

Actually, I think that adoption should be the first choice for parents everywhere. We'd eliminate so much suffering by taking care of the kids that we have and only producing as many as we need.

-Duxwing
 

joal0503

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So, anyone here considered this?

I am currently very close to be being old enough (25). The more I think about it, the more sense it makes.

In the past my only motivation for having a child would be to satisfy my curiosity concerning how my own genes and behaviour would influence it. But this is not exactly a good reason to bring a child into the world.

I've shared some of my thoughts on the continuation of humans in general here

As I am now, I have a rather -avoid avoid- relationships with babies. When my family is trying to pressure me into holding my sister in law's baby, I just stare at them like this But if I should find myself wanting something like that later on, I could always be a foster home or adopt. And yes, I know getting to adopt is rather a difficult process, but I doubt there will ever be a point in my life where my happiness will be dependant on having a small gooey thing to look after. I could always get a dog.

I don't see any logical reasons to breed.

If your a chick lady, I can really only say that I have no idea what its like to have the societal pressures that women go through with family/babies/alloftherestofthebullshit.

from a male perspective, no way in hell would i sterilize myself. its just too much of an important biological gift, that i fear would have other unwanted effects on my hormones and body.

think of it like this, the issues you have concerning the pressures...they WONT go away after such an operation. Id contemplate working through those issues on their own before taking any drastic physical risks.
 

EyeSeeCold

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Minuend Come here, spread your legs... and let the baby making begin! :storks:

An unborn child, is a death child. :rip:

Does that even make sense? Idk :confused:
I love you though :rolleyes:
Do you like me using a lot of emoticons, or is it annoying? :smiley_emoticons_mr
Well well, I'm out of here, On my Bird.:king-twitter:
Woeps, I meant on my elephant. My bird doesn't walk :elephant:

That's just straight disrespectful. Within the context of your other posts, you don't take anything seriously. Why are you even here?
 

Architect

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Don't do it, seriously.

At my age and after having kids it can make sense, but at 24? Using BC isn't that big a hinderance. You won't be the same person at later 30's as you are now, and you don't want the possibility of hating your younger self.
 

Teohrn

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I would recommend you to not do it. You're relatively young and you don't know whether you're going to want a baby later in life. The decision simply lacks any flexibility whatsoever. You don't have to give birth to a child, but having the option to do so is good in itself. I wouldn't risk doing it having the possibility that I might regret it later in mind.
 

Solitaire U.

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IMAO, the philosophical implications are irrelevant. I wouldn't do anything that irreversibly limits my options.

I'm curious. Since having sex and making babies aren't mutually exclusive anymore, why would you consider it? To make a statement? How would you go about expressing that statement?
 

TheScornedReflex

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DON'T DO IT or do.
I, like the others would suggest holding off though. You may find someone later on in life and could want to have children. Taking that option away at such a young age doesn't seem wise.
 

Minuend

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To those concerned with limited future choices; artificial insemination is still possible. Of course, I'd have to pay for it, but if it would become that important to me, I'd be able to afford it. It would even give me additional motivation to think it through more seriously.

Minuend, you have my unconditional permission to get your tubes tied. More people should be as responsible as you've shown yourself to be here today. Well done, girl. :^^:

How is having children irresponsible?

On the other hand I've been sexually active for a long time and never used anything other than a rubber and never had any issues.

So that is something to consider. I probably would not do it for the simple reason that I don't like surgery. If there was a painless surgery free way of doing it I might consider it.

Well, I'm allergic to latex, and living rurally, it becomes somewhat of a hassle. It's like the one thing I'm allergic to. The surgery is not that expensive either, so I would probably start saving money after, like, half a year.

But yes, surgery is not ideal, per se. But all BC have potential side effects. For me it just seems like the easiest thing as I don't need to replace anything ever or look at my calendar.

Actually, I think that adoption should be the first choice for parents everywhere. We'd eliminate so much suffering by taking care of the kids that we have and only producing as many as we need.

-Duxwing

Adoption is difficult and expensive. There are very high standards to who get to adopt. Often it's nearly impossible for single to adopt, your economy must be good etc. So, it's not like getting a new kitty.

from a male perspective, no way in hell would i sterilize myself. its just too much of an important biological gift, that i fear would have other unwanted effects on my hormones and body.

think of it like this, the issues you have concerning the pressures...they WONT go away after such an operation. Id contemplate working through those issues on their own before taking any drastic physical risks.

You know what else is a biological gift? The ability to commit violent acts D:

Just because something is biologically possible, does not mean it's good or necessary. I think this belongs in the "naturalistic fallacy" group.

Pressure issues has nothing to do with it. I've already given my family implications that I do not want children. They don't really argue about it.

Don't do it, seriously.

At my age and after having kids it can make sense, but at 24? Using BC isn't that big a hinderance. You won't be the same person at later 30's as you are now, and you don't want the possibility of hating your younger self.

I've committed several mistakes in the past, but I do not blame the younger version of myself. My blame always goes toward the current me who should be able to change whatever I find offplace.

I have changed a lot, but my way of reasoning remains somewhat the same. I could not have a kid just because I "wanted to". I would have to find it meaningful in a way that doesn't seem illusionary to me.

IMAO, the philosophical implications are irrelevant.

This is something I can never do. Especially when it comes to an issue involving creating new life. This life will, perhaps, exist for 100 years and experience suffering and joy. It might suffer for the most of its life, be handicapped. A life is not something to be taken lightly. In a way, you as a parent is responsible for all the suffering it experiences. the alternative- not existing, is after all nothing that can be experienced and thus it can't really be "wrong".

Regardless, to me my opinions and choices have to have a base in what I consider "rational". You know, even considering the fragility and erroneous human mind, I have to base my perspective on something. And I need this something to factor in as many relevant aspects as possible.

DON'T DO IT or do.
I, like the others would suggest holding off though. You may find someone later on in life and could want to have children. Taking that option away at such a young age doesn't seem wise.

My current partner would be highly ideal for breeding as he is highly intelligent, compassionate, kind and just downright cute and charming :3 It has nothing to do with that.
 

joal0503

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You know what else is a biological gift? The ability to commit violent acts D:

Just because something is biologically possible, does not mean it's good or necessary. I think this belongs in the "naturalistic fallacy" group.

Pressure issues has nothing to do with it. I've already given my family implications that I do not want children. They don't really argue about it.


.


its not a 'gift' in the sense that i feel you are wasting it or anything...i was more concerned about the possible effects it will have on your entire physiology. i dont know a whole lot about it...but id guess that having such a procedure would have major effects on the regulation of your body...

so by removing this 'gift' (of a functional, normal operating human body), you could run into some issues.

family pressure, i understand even if they accept...but digging deeper i was talking about society's overall perspective on what 'normal' women should do...which i think as of lately has changed a great deal, but still exists. women are expected to become mothers, caregivers, etc. and rebellion against that societal pressure, could possibly be an unrealized motive.

(i know this doesnt make much sense)
 

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its not a 'gift' in the sense that i feel you are wasting it or anything...i was more concerned about the possible effects it will have on your entire physiology. i dont know a whole lot about it...but id guess that having such a procedure would have major effects on the regulation of your body...

so by removing this 'gift' (of a functional, normal operating human body), you could run into some issues.

family pressure, i understand even if they accept...but digging deeper i was talking about society's overall perspective on what 'normal' women should do...which i think as of lately has changed a great deal, but still exists. women are expected to become mothers, caregivers, etc. and rebellion against that societal pressure, could possibly be an unrealized motive.

(i know this doesnt make much sense)

She would not have her ovaries removed, she'd get her tubes tied.
Big difference! Her hormones would function normally.
 

Lyra

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I give you the dysgenic shift.
 

Cavallier

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Well, I'm allergic to latex, and living rurally, it becomes somewhat of a hassle. It's like the one thing I'm allergic to. The surgery is not that expensive either, so I would probably start saving money after, like, half a year.

Gotcha. My close friend is also allergic to latex. Shall I mail some, ahem, supplies? ;)

I'm a little surprised by how many people are against self sterilization. I don't know what is available in your country but in mine you can get a hormonal shot once a year that replaces having to take an oral contraceptive. Easy, clean. No muss, no fuss. Cheaper in the short run but more expensive in the long run.
 

Minuend

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:3 We are currently trying some random stuff ordered from the internet. We'll see how that works.

Well, in some future, I will look closer into the alternatives. I haven't dived properly into the research phase.

Oh, and on the comments on regret; In Norway about 10-25% regret the surgery later in life.

And I'm also surprised how many are against it for very, in intpforum standard, shallow reasons. Not one person have argued the point of breeding with a more philosophical pinning. (Not that my perspectives is very highly philosophical or anything).
 

Oedipus

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Have you spoken to a doctor about it yet? Apparently it can be difficult to find somebody to perform a sterilisation if you're a young woman, especially if you don't have any kids already. I have a feeling that mostly applies to the US though. I don't imagine Norway would be as much of a problem.
 

~~~

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What about a Darwinian argument?
 

Grove

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At 33 I'm seriously considering getting my tubes tied. I don't want to have a child, and if I'm ever able support a child I would rather adopt.
 

MissQuote

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its not a 'gift' in the sense that i feel you are wasting it or anything...i was more concerned about the possible effects it will have on your entire physiology. i dont know a whole lot about it...but id guess that having such a procedure would have major effects on the regulation of your body...

Instead of going with your guesses as correct and stating opinions as fact based on them you should maybe do some research in the future.
 

MissQuote

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As to the OP.

Where do I sign up?

I would have a tubal ligation in a heart beat if I had the funds.

Of course, I already have four children ranging in age from 7 to 16 and am certain I wish for no more babies.

I see nothing wrong with you deciding to not have any children, but would suggest that you may be a bit young to make that permanent of a decision yet. An alternative option for you may be a non-hormonal copper IUD. They are considered as effective as sterilization, last for up to 12 years and can be removed with a simple office visit to the doctor if one decides they wish to embark on making babies.

A lot of people don't like them at all, however, and the idea freaks them out.
 

joal0503

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Instead of going with your guesses as correct and stating opinions as fact based on them you should maybe do some research in the future.

okay, i was just giving friendly advice to a stranger. and i wasnt making anything out to be fact, or like i was representing medical research...it was pretty clear that i was just expressing a generic concern; research the procedures and make sure your health isn't compromised...which IS the OP's job...not mine.

besides, it was cleared up by adaire.
 

MissQuote

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Of course then again, I say you may be too young to make the permanent choice of no children ever at the age of 24, but I'm not really one to talk as I had already made the permanent choice of becoming a parent four times over by the time I was 24.

So take my opinion with a grain of salt, I suppose.
 

MissQuote

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okay, i was just giving friendly advice to a stranger. and i wasnt making anything out to be fact, or like i was representing medical research...it was pretty clear that i was just expressing a generic concern; research the procedures and make sure your health isn't compromised...which IS the OP's job...not mine.

Spreading false information based on personal feelings with no facts to back them up can negatively influence the choices of some people based on the feelings it creates within them.

I am not being mean.
 

joal0503

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Spreading false information based on personal feelings with no facts to back them up can negatively influence the choices of some people based on the feelings it creates within them.

I am not being mean.

what 'false information' do you speak of?

its not a 'gift' in the sense that i feel you are wasting it or anything...i was more concerned about the possible effects it will have on your entire physiology. i dont know a whole lot about it...but id guess that having such a procedure would have major effects on the regulation of your body...

so by removing this 'gift' (of a functional, normal operating human body), you could run into some issues.

again, i get what your advice is sayin...it makes sense...i just dont see how it applies here, and why you would go out of your way to call me out like that?
 

MissQuote

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what 'false information' do you speak of?


Perhaps I miss read you or I didn't express myself properly.


from a male perspective, no way in hell would i sterilize myself. its just too much of an important biological gift, that i fear would have other unwanted effects on my hormones and body.

This was the post I was referring to.

You are so strongly opposed based on fear of what you do not understand.

You are right, you did not actually give any false information.

My own reaction proves my point, however, in a way. Your statement was so strong I initially falsely thought you were giving some bogus facts that had to do with reality outside of your own mind.
 

MissQuote

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Why I would "call you out":

I've known too many women who have had to deal with unwanted pregnancies because their long term male partner was too chicken shit to get a vasectomy based on the jokes other men make about it.


It goes like this:

Couple knows they do not want any/any more children.
Couple cannot afford for woman to get sterilized.
Man is too afraid based in part on his other male friends jokes and misinformation.
Birth control eventually fails.
Woman now faces unwanted pregnancy she must choose to carry out or terminate, both of which are more difficult choices than the man ever had to face when choosing not to be sterilized.
 

joal0503

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Perhaps I miss read you or I didn't express myself properly.




This was the post I was referring to.

You are so strongly opposed based on fear of what you do not understand.

You are right, you did not actually give any false information.

My own reaction proves my point, however, in a way. Your statement was so strong I initially falsely thought you were giving some bogus facts that had to do with reality outside of your own mind.

well, to be fair, i had no idea minuend was a lady. the OP, never really made it clear, and im not familiar with most of the established members...to me it was an androgynous perspective.

whatever the confusion was, its all good.


and p.s. you dont have to worry about me thinking im some male chauvinist...


:elephant:
 

MissQuote

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I didn't mean to offend at all.

I suppose I just get overly annoyed sometimes about certain subjects, especially when I have seen the damage played out in real life.
 

Jennywocky

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As to the OP.

Where do I sign up?

I would have a tubal ligation in a heart beat if I had the funds.

Of course, I already have four children ranging in age from 7 to 16 and am certain I wish for no more babies.

I see nothing wrong with you deciding to not have any children, but would suggest that you may be a bit young to make that permanent of a decision yet. An alternative option for you may be a non-hormonal copper IUD. They are considered as effective as sterilization, last for up to 12 years and can be removed with a simple office visit to the doctor if one decides they wish to embark on making babies.

A lot of people don't like them at all, however, and the idea freaks them out.

I think your advice is very sound. I tend to play things conservative in the sense of leaving options open when I can afford to (take the least amount of action that allows the most future freedom, when possible); and for someone fairly young who has never had children, I would go by a different method other than sterilization, if possible, as long it was a sound method of preventing pregnancy.

This isn't a matter of not believing how someone feels and thinks at the moment, it's something I simply say as someone older, who has been surprised at how her own views of children/parenting as well as other life matters HAS actually changed over the years as she has gotten older. I've had to learn to be flexible with myself and allow for the possibility of change.

Maybe it's likely the OP's views won't change and she won't even want to have kids, but I don't see the point in razing and salting the ground and pouring concrete over it, so to speak, when it's easy enough just to keep things not growing there.
 

kora

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I'm thinking about it, I really don't want/like kids and can't imagine wanting/liking them. But the idea of not having the option still makes me nervous for some reason...So I suppose there is a part of me that might change my mind. I must have at least a tiny percentage of maternal instinct after all :D
 

MissQuote

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I think your advice is very sound. I tend to play things conservative in the sense of leaving options open when I can afford to (take the least amount of action that allows the most future freedom, when possible); and for someone fairly young who has never had children, I would go by a different method other than sterilization, if possible, as long it was a sound method of preventing pregnancy.

This isn't a matter of not believing how someone feels and thinks at the moment, it's something I simply say as someone older, who has been surprised at how her own views of children/parenting as well as other life matters HAS actually changed over the years as she has gotten older. I've had to learn to be flexible with myself and allow for the possibility of change.

Maybe it's likely the OP's views won't change and she won't even want to have kids, but I don't see the point in razing and salting the ground and pouring concrete over it, so to speak, when it's easy enough just to keep things not growing there.

It is amazing how much we change in our views and thinking as the years keep pouring by.

I first wanted to be sterilized when I was 19 (I already had two children) and while my doctor agreed she would do it if I really really wanted it, she implored me to wait until I was at least twentyfive.

In hindsight I am glad I did not do it then, as I love and adore the two children I went on to have after that, though they were both unplanned, I wouldn't go back and change it.

Now in my thirties, with a much broader mind of life and its trials and triumphs, I can confidently say I am done with babies and would not regret being sterilized. I couldn't say this with confidence in my twenties, though I thought I knew what I wanted, children wise, there was uncertainty in that area still.

So yeah. If there are easier options that are just as good but not permanently life altering, might as well go with them, if one isn't 100% certain about things.
 

Minuend

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But.. but.. it's still possible to get impregnated artificially
 

MissQuote

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Minuend

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Cog?

Being pregnant isn't exactly my idea of fun. I find it horrifying, and pregnant women looks distasteful to me.
 

Cavallier

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I have debated with myself and others at length the philosophical aspects of having children both on a personal and societal level. I have never been able to come up with a philosophical or moral validation for having children. Yet, I still find myself with a desire to experience having children. I think that for me personally it is a selfish desire born out of curiosity. I say selfish because as I stated above I don't have any validating reason for wanting a child other than self indulgence.

I can say that having a child has never been a driving life goal of mine. I have wondered if it's just the vestiges of societal conditioning of if it's biological. Ultimately it doesn't matter I guess. I can't even give you a good explanation of why I have an urge to have a child except that I am curious about the biological process of it all and about the emotional/philosophical/psychological experience of raising a child. I think that there is nothing that can accurately recreate the experience of being pregnant, giving birth, and being a parent. I know that the act, and maybe even the desire, of being a parent is completely plebian. I have been treated with derision and rejected by some of my associates because they felt by wanting children I was giving up on my independence, giving in to societal pressure, and becoming just another sheeple. Indeed I have felt driven away from this very forum because I have a desire to have a child.

Being an INTP and being female means being slightly out of tune with my gender and society as a whole. If being an INTP and curious about having a child puts me out of step with my INTP community as well, then so be it. It's not as if INTPs like groups any larger than 1 anyway. ;)

@Minuend : If you don't want to have children then get the operation. If I were you however, I would find it difficult indeed to spend that kind of money on an operation when I could be spending it on a PS3 or a nicer computer. If it really is a quality of life issue, which is sounds like it is, I say get the operation and live your life carefree.

P.S. I demand pictures of this hottie I hear you have sequestered in your closet.
 

Inappropriate Behavior

is peeing on the carpet
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Cog?

Being pregnant isn't exactly my idea of fun. I find it horrifying, and pregnant women looks distasteful to me.

Somehow I doubt Cog would do it without making grotesque modifications to the baby. No, I know someone (cousin) who is very successful at it. So successful in fact that 5 years out of grad school he heads the department at a prestigous university medical complex and has boosted their success by over 60% in 6 months. I wish him well in all things but I wish he did something else. We got too many people already.

I agree that pregnancy does seem bloody awful. I don't see why women choose to do it. And the look; ick!

Edit: That being said, go for it Cav! Who is anyone else to judge another's decision.
 

Cavallier

Oh damn.
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Being pregnant isn't exactly my idea of fun. I find it horrifying, and pregnant women looks distasteful to me.

I kind of fear being pregnant. I think any intelligent person who understands in detail what being pregnant involves would be afraid. However, I also think it's all utterly fascinating. I guess I'm the sort to explore the things that frighten me and that just adds more drive to wanting to experience being pregnant some day.
 

MissQuote

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Cog?

Being pregnant isn't exactly my idea of fun. I find it horrifying, and pregnant women looks distasteful to me.

I meant the actual becoming pregnant part is more fun the regular old way.
 
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