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Star Wars: Was the empire really that bad?

Was the empire bad?

  • Yes

    Votes: 7 41.2%
  • No

    Votes: 10 58.8%

  • Total voters
    17

NormannTheDoorman

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Didn't they just want order in the galaxy? I mean when they were constructing the death star it opened jobs for people. All the rebellion has caused was chaos.
Sure the empire is run by a sith but still, they have governors and other people who you can answer to. No need to go up to the emperor himself.


What else, discuss below.


What do you think?

Was the empire really that bad?
Was the rebellion just a terrorist group?
 

Architect

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In the Old Republic the Senate rules the Galaxy, with the Jedi Council, using the (good) Force, providing support. The Empire was ruled by the Sith Lords wielding the Dark Force, combining three issues. One, they took over the government by coup. Two, using the dark force to do it instead of the Good Force. Three, by combining a police force and government into one entity, essentially creating a police state.
 

TriflinThomas

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The emperor had control over the Galactic Senate, so it wasn't like everyone had a say (just playing devil's advocate). I don't think they were good, but they weren't particularly bad outside of trying to crush the rebellion.
 

NormannTheDoorman

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I just personally view the rebel alliance as a terrorist group. The galaxy was in order, and they decided to plunge it into chaos again. What happens after the chaos, hard time establishing a new government.
 

Cheeseumpuffs

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Was the empire really that bad?
Was the rebellion just a terrorist group?

Whoever wins is right.



I personally don't think the Empire was evil (The Emperor was a particularly fucked up guy but the entire government wasn't evil). And, as NormannTheDoorman hinted at, the years following Return of the Jedi were awful. Anyone who's read the extended universe knows all the chaos and shittiness that the New Republic went through. Also, even after the Republic had settled, the Yuzhan Vong invade and kick the shit out of everyone because there's so much confusion and dissent and the only planets able to remain relatively untouched are those controlled by the Remnants of the Empire so the argument is there that a fully intact army would have been able to crush the Yuzhan Vong invasion with ease.
 

Proletar

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And they blew up Alderaan. But sure, no biggie. Just a whole planet full of civilians. A necessary evil in the war on terror. Sure.
 

Hawkeye

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I see the Empire as a Tesco (or WalMart), growing into a mega-chain that will eventually cover the entire galaxy. Providing the same average stuff to all.

The Rebel Alliance on the other hand, are a local butchers defending their community from this mediocre stuff. They provide less stuff, but at a higher grade.

This reference to quality is noticeable of the ships we see in the films (ignoring the CGi used to create them).


Even though the Empire aims to provide a good service to all, the methods they choose to obtain this universal dominance are considered evil.
 

Cheeseumpuffs

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And they blew up Alderaan. But sure, no biggie. Just a whole planet full of civilians. A necessary evil in the war on terror. Sure.

Oh shit, I forgot about this. Yeah, that was a dick move.

Still, it was technically Tarkin's call though and the the Stormtroopers were just following orders (It's literally impossible for them to disobey an order).
 

Cognisant

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The Emperor was neutral evil, now a neutral evil person is motivated by personal gain, but he's the Emperor, he already has the universe at his command and incredible personal power, so what does a neutral evil person do when he has everything he wants?

He guards it jealously.

Ironically the Emperor would be a fairly ideal director of the public service, he couldn't help himself, if there was no rebellion to put down he'd be spending all his time hunting down petty corruption, cutting costs, increasing returns, making the trains/busses run on time and the public education system work. He's the sort of person who lives for his work, he gets off on his own competence, I can easily imagine him cackling as he brings a corrupt official to "justice" every bit as much as he enjoyed mocking Luke with the imminent destruction of the rebel fleet.

Or then again...

I don’t mean to turn PA into an episode of Kids say the darnedest things but some of you might appreciate this. I was playing Star Wars with my son the other night when he said something funny. Little Gabe is obsessed with Star Wars and so much of our play time involves reenacting the movies. On this particular occasion he was playing the role of the emperor while I was Luke Skywalker. He had seated himself in my computer chair and when he spun around to face me I saw that he had placed a toy Lightsaber on the arm rest. He patted it gently and said “You want this don’t you?” I could not help but laugh at how ridiculous the scene was. This bothered him and he told me not to laugh at him because he was the emperor and he was evil. “Yes I know.” I told him and tried to get my act together but his little angry eyes underneath the hood of his Mickey Mouse sweatshirt made me laugh even more. “I’m bad.” he said and as if to prove it told me “I litter!”

“What?” I asked “What do you mean you litter?” He pushed back his hood and looked at me seriously “Well littering is against the law and the Emperor does all bad things right?” I imagined the Emperor stalking the halls of the Deathstar and munching on a snickers bar. He finishes the last bite and throws the crumpled wrapper over his shoulder. An Imperial Guard bends to snatch it up and the Emperor raises a hand. “Leave it.” he croaks. The guard pauses, his red gloved hand shudders as it hovers over the bit of garbage lying there on the Deathstar’s polished Durasteel floor. The emperor watches the guard’s discomfort with growing satisfaction, a smile creasing his shriveled face. The Guard stands and follows the Emperor away and he can not help but spare a backwards glance at the trash he left behind. With the glance comes a thought, a thought he will never share out-loud but one that shakes him to his very core. “I serve a monster!”

I looked at my son and realized that in his five year old mind there is no gradient to evil. For him, the act of destroying Alderaan and littering are equal. The sort of person who could to one might easily do the other. I smiled at him “Of course he litters son. He litters all the time.” He smiled knowingly and I reached out with the force to summon my Lightsaber.

-Gabe out

But that's assuming the Emperor is inherently evil and I don't think anyone is ever inherently evil, well not unless they're chaotic evil, y'know right up to the end Darth Vader thought he was doing the right thing in a "the ends justify the means" kind of way and a neutral evil person like the Emperor wouldn't even consider there to be a distinction between good and evil, the Sith don't live for evil, they live for power.

Personally I think being Sith is all about understanding and fuelling passion, I mean if you're angry then your force powers become more powerful and that is the essence of the force, it is both something felt and the expression of feelings. Force drain for instance uses an opponent's anger against them so you see it's an essential skill of the Sith to manipulate the emotions in both themselves and others, in the Star Wars universe it's called force drain, in ours it's called trolling.

My point is that the Emperor often seems inherently evil, but for him it's just a means to an end, he deliberately acts evil to inspire fear and anger in others, but only for personal gain, if there's nothing to gain out of it he just doesn't care, he'll blow up planets, but he won't kick a puppy, not without an audience at least.
 

Cognisant

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To clarify, he's not incapable of kicking puppies without an audience, there's just no motivation for him to do so, y'know if you're chaotic evil and you do evil for evil's sake then you'll never run an empire, it's just not your thing, remember that scene where Joker was burning that huge pile of cash and explains to the gangsters that the things he likes are cheap, that's inherent evil.
 

Kuu

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What is order? And why is it desirable?
 

Proletar

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To clarify, he's not incapable of kicking puppies without an audience, there's just no motivation for him to do so, y'know if you're chaotic evil and you do evil for evil's sake then you'll never run an empire, it's just not your thing, remember that scene where Joker was burning that huge pile of cash and explains to the gangsters that the things he likes are cheap, that's inherent evil.

I got leaned towards F on the MBTI-test just because I valued mercy higher than justice, but still that's just my own personal view, gained through my own thinking. (Really, who chants for the prisoner to be executed in the square? Thinkers or feelers? Mercy is better for humanity, and justice done has been unjust many times.)

Similarly, the neutral evil emperor gains his power by using lawful-evil techniques. That is an interesting thought you are bringing up.


But really people, to state that the EMPIRE was not that bad? Just look at how they hired bounty-hunters and let people like Jabba run free. Or how they treated the mining-operation at the sky-city. Or how they killed Lukes parents, or how the people hated the empire in general. If the empire was not bad... Then why were there a rebellion to begin with? Bands of pretenders? No, they fought for freedom of speech, democracy and the jedi way.

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet the Force


The empire was against that. Palpatine governed through fear and oppression, separating the people and the state. Just doing that is wrong, no matter if the people got their blue-milk by doing this. And don't forget - the old republic was functioning well until Palpatine used the trade-federation to create disorder.

I tested as chaotic good by the way.
 

NormannTheDoorman

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And they blew up Alderaan. But sure, no biggie. Just a whole planet full of civilians. A necessary evil in the war on terror. Sure.

Leia's fault. I blame her. She could have told the truth. Risk her life for a planet.
And besides the government on Alderaan were funding the rebellion.
 

NormannTheDoorman

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I see the Empire as a Tesco (or WalMart), growing into a mega-chain that will eventually cover the entire galaxy. Providing the same average stuff to all.

The Rebel Alliance on the other hand, are a local butchers defending their community from this mediocre stuff. They provide less stuff, but at a higher grade.

This reference to quality is noticeable of the ships we see in the films (ignoring the CGi used to create them).


Even though the Empire aims to provide a good service to all, the methods they choose to obtain this universal dominance are considered evil.

Grand Admiral Thrawn explains this. It was the emperor who was aiding the imperial ships. After his death, utter chaos. That is why Thrawn sought out the clone of C'baoth. One of the jedi masters. At least his clone.
 

Proletar

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Leia's fault. I blame her. She could have told the truth. Risk her life for a planet.
And besides the government on Alderaan were funding the rebellion.

You got that wrong. Imperial intelligence shows that Alderaan had WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. :O
 

Cognisant

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They were going to blow up Alderaan either way, you don't build a planet destroying super weapon and not publicly demonstrate that it works, then considering the Death Star was a weapon of fear rather than practicality it obviously had to be a populated planet, not just some backwater either, somewhere nice and well known.

It's like shooting the first hostage to show you mean business.

The empire was against that. Palpatine governed through fear and oppression, separating the people and the state. Just doing that is wrong, no matter if the people got their blue-milk by doing this. And don't forget - the old republic was functioning well until Palpatine used the trade-federation to create disorder.
And the empire could have functioned even better if things were given a chance to settle down, y'know there's nothing inherently wrong with living in a police state, if you're not a criminal then it can actually be quite cozy.

The very fact that the Jedi were needed by the republic demonstrates the difference, you don't need super solider negotiators if the senate actually a viable means of galactic management, sure independent planets and a galactic democracy sounds good but in practice that just means there's a lot of powerful people constantly trying to outmanoeuvre and back-stab each other. Without the Jedi order the Republic would have degenerated into a massive multifaceted civil war within weeks, and even with the Jedi there was still a lot of covert conflicts going on.

Whereas in the empire the use of fear enabled the imperial fleet to subdue an entire galaxy with a minimal use of force, granted blowing up Alderaan doesn't seem minimal but that was one planet for galactic peace, whereas if you read up on all the missions the Jedi went on it quickly becomes evident that beneath the shiny veneer the republic was rotten to the core, a powder keg the Jedi kept damp.

Quite simply the empire got by perfectly fine without the Jedi, indeed in spite of the remaining Jedi, and that if nothing else demonstrates that if the rebellion had been put down the entire galaxy would have been far better off.

A good dictator can be better than a democracy, it's true, a democracy is inherently corrupt, it only serves the majority and a democratic government can only do what the majority will allow it to do, whereas the emperor would have been solely interested in the power and wealth of his empire as a whole, because it's his empire, a reflection of himself and he wants a reflection he can be proud of.
 

EyeSeeCold

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