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Software/indie game development - S/N types

intpz

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I've been thinking and reading some software development forums, and I've noticed that there are few N types there. ST/SJ types seem to be dominant. N types seem to fall into indie game development instead, though usually most of them seem to be ENFx rather than T types. Speaking of INTPs, I believe I've "met" only one INTP in indie game development field, and rather few "serious" types and even fewer introverts...
 

Architect

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Yes, software development is primarily S, with a few N's, and you do run across INTP's occasionally. Not much different from real life I suppose. INTP's are rare, and since they often have career difficulties many of them get weeded out before having a professional career.

A good friend of mine is an EE, and there's one other guy at work who could be an INTP also. He's risen to level of 'sage' - an expert in the field. Doesn't do anything other than theorize and pontificate on his specialty. Could be, but usually INTP's have more wide ranging habits and interests than he seems to posses.
 

scorpiomover

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A lot of software development requires more than just you. Your code has to be readable by others. So you often have to add comments, use standard conventions, and even use standard styles of coding for a particular problem. So a lot of the time, you are required to use conventional ways, just to facilitate software development.

Another issue is just plain practicality. It's very easy to write code that produces errors. So in practice, it's much quicker and more reliable, to use existing practices that others have already found to be highly reliable.

So for these reasons, it really is much safer, and quicker, and generally much, much easier, to rely on Sensors for most programming tasks.

HOWEVER, programmers write programs, and by definition, programs are objects that can do a particular task, as many times as one needs, whenever one needs, and can be replicated to any other computer or situation which requires the same task to be done, and provides the same resources as the original. So once a task has been programmed once, technically, it need never be programmed again. Accordingly, programming is always pushing the envelope. Programmers are often being asked to do what they have never done before. So, although Sensors make more sense to use in general, it is frequently the case, that the task being asked of one, is a task that no-one has really seen before. Sometimes, no-one has a clue on how to do it. Other times, Sensors have a way of doing it, but only by using a lot of methods, that in total, will take ages.

That happens a LOT of the time, maybe 20% of the time. So then, you want an intuitive.

Another problem is tech support and debugging. Quite frequently, clients report bugs that seem quite elusive to track down. Normal methods of tracking down the error in the code, seem to not work at all. Other times, even when the error is identified, the particular problem cannot be fixed easily, and can seem to require months of work. In both situations, programmers are faced with a problem that their existing knowledge doesn't cover. Someone then has to come up with a whole new way of identifying the problem, and/or a whole new way of identifying the solution. To do that quickly, you usually have to have an intuitive feel for what is the right direction to go in. This also is not the majority of errors. But it happens a LOT, maybe 30%, and then, you really do NEED an intuitive.

Us intuitives are a hindrance most of the time in programming. But when we ARE useful, we're almost indispensable, because the Sensors really are totally out of their depth, on those problems.

That's what I found, anyway. Employers put up with all sorts of things from me, because when they did need me, no-one else could do the job at all.
 

Architect

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Us intuitives are a hindrance most of the time in programming. But when we ARE useful, we're almost indispensable, because the Sensors really are totally out of their depth, on those problems.

Well I'd just say a team requires a blend of talent. In my present group - ISFJ support, ISTP, ISTJ, ISFP, ISTX engineers, ESFP manager and me, we've got a bunch of Sensors who can really grind the code out. I think my boss brought me in to balance them out, but it does kind os suck being the only intuitive (I should be used to it by now). So I come up with wild-ass solutions that none of the rest would.

Unfortunately, they're so good and so outside the box that my group doesn't know what to do with them.
 

intpz

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A lot of software development requires more than just you. Your code has to be readable by others. So you often have to add comments, use standard conventions, and even use standard styles of coding for a particular problem. So a lot of the time, you are required to use conventional ways, just to facilitate software development.

When I code, I usually use "my" conventions, not how the code should look like. I also comment the code very lightly, just to remind myself what that part does: "drawing," "movement," etc.. Sometimes, I can rewrite long algorithms in very little code. That was often the case at school, and I think something related to movement physics at home. I always used to get "interesting way of doing it," with a disappointed and surprised tone from my teacher...
 

scorpiomover

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When I code, I usually use "my" conventions, not how the code should look like. I also comment the code very lightly, just to remind myself what that part does: "drawing," "movement," etc..
I got told off a lot for that in work. No-one else could read my code. Copious comments seem to be the main way that anyone is able to make sense of it.

I always used to get "interesting way of doing it," with a disappointed and surprised tone from my teacher...
I got that from one of my lecturers once in uni, when I was studying maths for my degree.
 

intpz

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I think my teacher might have been an ISTJ with some N in his outer image, but not in the inner thoughts. Not a bad guy, annoying though, as I couldn't manipulate him to be able to use his printer. He's too uptight about the rules.

Anyway, when I read the code of others', I usually am able to make sense of it, even though I don't know the syntax nor there are comments. But yea, I don't think many people could read mine. I'd like to share some of it with someone sometime, see what they think. I wonder when I will return to coding. I used to be quite fun.
 

walfin

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Good code comments itself.
 

Dapper Dan

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Good code comments itself.
I've heard this before, and I think it's naive.

Sure, if the code's well-written I can probably walk through it and figure it out. But that takes more time than just looking at the comments. It also assumes I have knowledge of all the pieces involved and that the original developer didn't use any techniques that I'm not familiar with.

Aside from all that, easily readable code is often a pipe dream. Comments don't hurt anything, so use them.
That's the stupidest thing I've heard today. Good code is the code that works efficiently, independent of if some asshole can understand it or not.
This is utterly false. Code that has to be re-written because no one knows what the hell is going on is bad code.

Honestly, you should get that out of your head as fast as you can if you hope to get a programming job. If you say that in an interview, you better be prepared for an epic belly laugh.
 

intpz

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Honestly, you should get that out of your head as fast as you can if you hope to get a programming job. If you say that in an interview, you better be prepared for an epic belly laugh.

I'm not, I have no interest in learning a bunch of techniques and using them over and over again according to strict coding standards. I like freedom, I like doing things my way. If I code, I'll code for myself, perhaps in a small team if I move to an English-speaking country, but a small team doesn't have 10 people working on physics and 20 on graphics, people can communicate and work on their code piece if needs be.

A starting job is the guy who repairs PCs (cleans installations, reinstalls drivers or OS, change parts and see which one's broken, etc.). A dream job is my own company, which has nothing to do with me writing thousands of lines of code.
 

Architect

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Good code comments itself.

No code is self commenting. I just torqued a colleague because I wrote some code which had a special exception, and I didn't comment/document why it was an exception. I'm still at the same job and remembered the exception and so was able to explain, but if I hadn't that information would have been lost.

I'm not, I have no interest in learning a bunch of techniques and using them over and over again according to strict coding standards. I like freedom, I like doing things my way.

Few if any jobs are like that. Even high security clearance DOD jobs, and medical software jobs (=high reliability and safety) don't do anything like that. Software is still black magic and managers don't have a clue what you are doing.

If I code, I'll code for myself, perhaps in a small team if I move to an English-speaking country, but a small team doesn't have 10 people working on physics and 20 on graphics, people can communicate and work on their code piece if needs be.

Most teams these days are pretty small.

A dream job is my own company, which has nothing to do with me writing thousands of lines of code.

But then you are a manager, and will have very little technical input to the work (engineers don't like being told how to do their job, as you demonstrated). I've had near management positions before. Fun for a while, not so good as a long term thing.
 

intpz

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Few if any jobs are like that. Even high security clearance DOD jobs, and medical software jobs (=high reliability and safety) don't do anything like that. Software is still black magic and managers don't have a clue what you are doing.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you still have to comply to these regulations, not to the "highest precision" level, but it is pretty important.

Most teams these days are pretty small.

Indie teams, they are small indeed. 2, 3 people, or more often around 10 or a bit less.

But then you are a manager, and will have very little technical input to the work (engineers don't like being told how to do their job, as you demonstrated). I've had near management positions before. Fun for a while, not so good as a long term thing.

I think you have in mind a different goal/position here. Let me explain a bit more.

If I owned a company, I wouldn't care so much what the engineers do on the raw level. What I care about is efficient code: final product that complies to my standards. I would care about the ideas for the product, the implementation and design. I guess that would be game designer with higher clearance level, allowing me to control the workflow and how the final product would look like.

I think you had in mind the control of how to code, not what I just said. :confused:
 

Dapper Dan

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but you still have to comply to these regulations, not to the "highest precision" level, but it is pretty important.
Call them regulations if you like, but mostly it's just things like naming standards, formatting, and best practices. It's all there to increase efficiency (ideally). Also, the only ones who really care are the developers. Managers don't typically work with code, so they don't care how ugly and unreadable it is (until it causes problems).

Indie teams, they are small indeed. 2, 3 people, or more often around 10 or a bit less.
From what I can tell, big companies don't have bigger teams, they just have more of them. It's pretty much impossible for more than 10 developers to effectively work as a team, and anything above 5 is probably pushing it. This is just my personal experience, of course.

I think you have in mind a different goal/position here. Let me explain a bit more.

If I owned a company, I wouldn't care so much what the engineers do on the raw level. What I care about is efficient code: final product that complies to my standards. I would care about the ideas for the product, the implementation and design. I guess that would be game designer with higher clearance level, allowing me to control the workflow and how the final product would look like.

I think you had in mind the control of how to code, not what I just said. :confused:
Sounds like typical executive-level management to me. You sound like my boss's boss. :)
 

intpz

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Call them regulations if you like, but mostly it's just things like naming standards, formatting, and best practices. It's all there to increase efficiency (ideally). Also, the only ones who really care are the developers. Managers don't typically work with code, so they don't care how ugly and unreadable it is (until it causes problems).

From what I can tell, big companies don't have bigger teams, they just have more of them. It's pretty much impossible for more than 10 developers to effectively work as a team, and anything above 5 is probably pushing it. This is just my personal experience, of course.

Sounds like typical executive-level management to me. You sound like my boss's boss. :)

Well, lack of comments due to me forgetting to add them, code that may be nested but working better than what would be the standard code, algorithms not from the book... That'd be a problem. :)

Yea, as far as I know, they have a team for physics, team for quests, team for monsters, team for NPCs, etc.. Lots of small teams working on the same big project, but in small parts.

Well, that's my goal in the job industry. Been for a while, I don't think I'd change my mind, unless I don't know something about that position... which is possible, but I think I know enough to make a conclusion like that. :confused:
 
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