So I failed my third precalc test in a row...

[EyeSeeCold]

There goes my dream of becoming a computer engineer.. I pretty much have a guaranteed Fail .


Maybe I can join the circus.....

 

[ApostateAbe]

Why? What do you think the problems could be? Do you just not have the mind for it? Or are there problems with instruction, time, lack of help, or you get distracted on the Internet too easily? What is going on? The problems that you have been having with precalc may be the same problems that will have in training to be in the circus. If you can figure out how you went wrong, then you can fix it and give it another shot. And there are a bunch of people whose brains are not wired for math. How did you do in geometry, algebra and trigonometry?

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Ultimately, to take responsibility for myself, I just need more time to let things soak in. I can't just accept stuff and memorize it, I need to realize something for myself and then apply it for awhile then I'll memorize it easily, but in college everything is rushed in a semester. It is also self-application/procrastination, but I cannot lie to myself and say that I could focus 100% if I tried.

I passed the other subjects with Bs and greater. 8th grade Algebra I had problems though, but that was the teacher's method. I think I need to be integrated to really catch on, just watching the board doesn't do anything for me.

I enjoy math but the tediousness annoys me to no end.

 

[ApostateAbe]

Ultimately, to take responsibility for myself, I just need more time to let things soak in. I can't just accept stuff and memorize it, I need to realize something for myself and then apply it for awhile then I'll memorize it easily, but in college everything is rushed in a semester. It is also self-application/procrastination, but I cannot lie to myself and say that I could focus 100% if I tried.

I passed the other subjects with Bs and greater. 8th grade Algebra I had problems though, but that was the teacher's method. I think I need to be integrated to really catch on, just watching the board doesn't do anything for me.

I enjoy math but the tediousness annoys me to no end.

What would happen if you had no Internet access at home, and your only access was at the computer labs at school? That is something I have done, to great effect, and it is something I still do. I have two laptops at home, one that is configured with an Internet connection, and the other that is not.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

I'd just find some other way to waste time.

It's funny how your life can be so complicated yet simple on the surface.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

There are lectures on youtube or academia earth that could be useful. I skipped a few classes and just watched lectures on the net to fill the knowledge gap.

If you need help any in particular just post your questions on here.

 

[Cavallier]

I found myself in a very similar position but with differential calculus instead. It may be better to figure out whether or not you want to continue with your math education now instead of later. I could have saved a lot of money and frustration if I'd made myself realize I had no future in math earlier.

 

[ApostateAbe]

I'd just find some other way to waste time.

It's funny how your life can be so complicated yet simple on the surface.

I think maybe you should be a part of study groups. It isn't just for the help and support. When you are part of a study group, then you are socially obliged to keep working, even if it is just you and some other guy.

 

[Melllvar]

This is part of why I hate the structure of school: you've already failed three tests, so you're most likely doomed in this class even if you master the subject in the next few weeks.

That's still no reason not to learn pre-calc though. If there's something you're having trouble understanding you can always post it here; I'll at least take a crack at explaining it. (What was your test on anyway? Trig identities? The unit circle?)

Assuming you did understand it though, and just did badly anyway, you're definitely right about the more practice thing. With math, physics, engineering, etc. just reading the material isn't nearly enough, you have to work problems if you expect to understand it and internalize it. Sometimes you think you have it all just from reading, then when you sit down to solve problems there are all these nuances and special cases, and you realize you didn't actually understand it as much as you thought. It's a pretty widely accepted thing that the actual learning comes from problem solving, not just from reading and understanding. It's like a muscle. You have to exercise it.

Not that I'm always good at that either. Problem solving can be tedious, while understanding it conceptually is usually a lot more fun. But still, if you want to be good at it, you have to work lots and lots of problems. It wouldn't be too far fetched to say that you're almost better off just skipping the chapters and starting on the problems, then reading what you need to know to solve them.

In future math classes you might also consider starting on the material before you start the class, so you have plenty of time to figure it all out before you start actually handing in assignments. Sometimes people need longer to think about it than the time the school administration happened to allot between exams/semesters/etc, particularly with harder subjects.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

I found myself in a very similar position but with differential calculus instead. It may be better to figure out whether or not you want to continue with your math education now instead of later. I could have saved a lot of money and frustration if I'd made myself realize I had no future in math earlier.

Aside from the enterprising part, I really would have liked to have been an engineer. I love taking things apart to see how they work, so the career would have been like a hobby for me. I don't really know what else I'm interested in for a career...the future looks bleak right now.

I think maybe you should be a part of study groups. It isn't just for the help and support. When you are part of a study group, then you are socially obliged to keep working, even if it is just you and some other guy.

I was offered, but was too lazy to go...

 

[ApostateAbe]

I was offered, but was too lazy to go...

Or maybe you just weren't wise enough, and now you know better. Unless you have another viable plan for your life, then give it another shot. Having the dream to be an engineer should have been the best opportunity for you. Many people have dreams for things where they don't have a chance in Hell. Acting. Singing. Architecture. Theoretical physics. Painting. Engineering? You have a chance in Hell. You just need to make the right decisions. I am not saying you need perseverance and determination. I am just saying that you need to make the right decisions. Not going to study groups is not about being lazy. It is about making the wrong decisions.

 

[Reluctantly]

This is part of why I hate the structure of school: you've already failed three tests, so you're most likely doomed in this class even if you master the subject in the next few weeks.

Tell me about it. I used to wonder why colleges just didn't offer semester exams that a student could take and if they passed they gained full credit for a class with whatever curved grade they got at the time. But now I realize universities, in conjunction with textbooks, work mostly under the guise of providing an education, but in reality just make learning as difficult as possible without a teacher (and even with teachers most lectures are short and don't cover concepts very well) so that people are forced to have to go frustratingly slowly throughout the system.

There's got to be a better way. If someone can come up with something that can compete against the university system and provide an equal or greater education but in a much shorter time-span, there would have to be a lot of money involved in it. But I'm going to assume that since no one has done such a thing it would require more effort than might be worth doing .

But um here's a link that might help with your math classes in explaining concepts.
http://www.khanacademy.org/
This website is pretty awesome. I'm surprised the guy doesn't charge money for a lot of this.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

It's not so much that my professor or the work is incomprehensible. It's that I need to realize for myself why 2+2 = 4. I have to go through the process of finding out that 2=1+1 and 4=1+1+1+1 so 2+2=1+1+1+1=4. It's the process, I need to process information first before I can understand it. There is no time for processing in my schedule, which is totally all over the place. The answer is structure, but there's nothing I can do now, except hopelessly try to memorize everything.

 

[Glordag]

It's not so much that my professor or the work is incomprehensible. It's that I need to realize for myself why 2+2 = 4. I have to go through the process of finding out that 2=1+1 and 4=1+1+1+1 so 2+2=1+1+1+1=4. It's the process, I need to process information first before I can understand it. There is no time for processing in my schedule, which is totally all over the place. The answer is structure, but there's nothing I can do now, except hopelessly try to memorize everything.

I did exceedingly well with math through Calculus 3 and Differential Equations, and then faltered somewhat when I got into classes like Partial Differential Equations, Advanced Calculus, Calculus of Variations, etc.

The reasons had absolutely nothing to do with ability. It was entirely, 100% environment and focus. When I did well, I managed to listen first and only process items with Ti after I had accurately heard them.

When I did poorly, I would (largely due to fatigue or lack of sleep) have my Ti running full speed and, as a result, never really processed everything that was being said. I would start to listen, and then discover that my mind was in an entirely different place 5 minutes later. This is NOT conducive to doing well in a structured classroom environment.

Your -best- option is to ensure that you get plenty of sleep, and then make a conscious effort to keep your ears open and mind from wandering during class, even if it seems to be wandering about the topic at hand. I don't care if you were just told how an integral works, do NOT spend the next 30 minutes in class thinking about it while your teacher is going over common integrals that you will see in your coursework. If you do this, then you will know the concept of an integral very well, but lack the functional aspects needed for problem solving.

Additionally, you should try reading over each lesson on your own, but focus on practical problem solving application. Then make sure you do the exercises given to you in class and use any spare time that you can motivate yourself on doing extra problems.

I hope everything works out for you. Rest assured that there are many paths to go down if you determine that math is not your cup of tea. Trust me when I say that the practical application does NOT get any lighter past pre-calculus for quite a while. Once you get into abstract algebra and things like groups, rings, and vector spaces it becomes a little more abstract with less "do 100 exercises for this equation", but you will never escape the applied math entirely.

If it makes you feel any better, I wish I had majored in something like Genetics, Psychology, or Computer Science instead of Math/Physics .

 

[EyeSeeCold]

I did exceedingly well with math through Calculus 3 and Differential Equations, and then faltered somewhat when I got into classes like Partial Differential Equations, Advanced Calculus, Calculus of Variations, etc.



The reasons had absolutely nothing to do with ability. It was entirely, 100% environment and focus. When I did well, I managed to listen first and only process items with Ti after I had accurately heard them. Right, being so close to home is a huge distraction though. I think I would have done better at a uni.


Your -best- option is to ensure that you get plenty of sleep, and then make a conscious effort to keep your ears open and mind from wandering during class, even if it seems to be wandering about the topic at hand. I don't care if you were just told how an integral works, do NOT spend the next 30 minutes in class thinking about it while your teacher is going over common integrals that you will see in your coursework. If you do this, then you will know the concept of an integral very well, but lack the functional aspects needed for problem solving.

Of course you know this happens. One day I decided to read along and I found everything readily understandable. Though the sleep is a big issue. I haven't had 8 hours of sleep in literally weeks.


I hope everything works out for you. Rest assured that there are many paths to go down if you determine that math is not your cup of tea. Trust me when I say that the practical application does NOT get any lighter past pre-calculus for quite a while. Once you get into abstract algebra and things like groups, rings, and vector spaces it becomes a little more abstract with less "do 100 exercises for this equation", but you will never escape the applied math entirely.

Math was pretty much my foundation. To know that I have no future in it would completely disrupt my whole image. I really have no care for anything else in the world. It's all pointless when I'm without a purpose.

reply

 

[Words]

reply

I hate it when you reply in that format.

General Rule: Like it to succeed in it. The problem is you don't like memorization? But you like deduction? I think there are two types of math: Imagination Math vs. Memory Math. If you can't do the latter, then the only choice is do it the other way(which is, in fact, the better way *grin) :

I have to go through the process of finding out that 2=1+1 and 4=1+1+1+1 so 2+2=1+1+1+1=4. It's the process, I need to process information first before I can understand it.

There is no time for processing in my schedule, which is totally all over the place. The answer is structure, but there's nothing I can do now, except hopelessly try to memorize everything.

I think we can safely conclude that memorization has 'failed you thrice already'. It's time to either learn it 'properly'(Imagination) or not learn it at all.

 

[Agent Intellect]

If you aren't willing/able to put in the time, there is really nothing anyone can do for you.

On the other hand, I like to think of math as a puzzle and not a problem. What I enjoy doing is reading ahead in the book before class and trying to figure things out myself, then after class, not looking at any of it again for a day or so. That's when I sit down and try to re-figure everything out on my own again. I find that I remember things very easily when I figure it out as opposed to just being given the answer.

I did very poorly in math during high school, and my problem seemed similar to yours: I opted to do just about anything I could that wasn't math. As a result, I only made it through geometry (after taking three semesters to do algebra).

Fast forward six years to 2009, I go back to college, and have to start over from algebra. I'm in trigonometry right now, and I've gotten over 100% in both algebra classes and currently getting 100% in trig using the method I explained above. In addition, I bought a pre-calculus book online and have been going over that (whenever time allows) and have a rudimentary understanding on that subject.

The point is, and I hate to say "it's an INTP thing" when the only thing I know for sure is that it's an "Agent Intellect" thing, but independent inquiry seems like it would be the preferred way of doing math for an INTP - although having the lecture to confirm that you solved the puzzle adequately is why school would still be better than being a strict autodidact. This method turns math into an interesting puzzle as opposed to the tedious number crunching grind that math teachers tend to use.

 

[Glordag]

I hate it when you reply in that format.

General Rule: Like it to succeed in it. The problem is you don't like memorization? But you like deduction? I think there are two types of math: Imagination Math vs. Memory Math. If you can't do the latter, then the only choice is do it the other way(which is, in fact, the better way *grin) :

I think we can safely conclude that memorization has 'failed you thrice already'. It's time to either learn it 'properly'(Imagination) or not learn it at all.

There is abstract math and applied math, if that's what you mean. The problem is that most physical science/engineering disciplines are going to be using applied math, and you still have to go through a large number of applied math courses to major in abstract math (generally through calculus 3, differential equations, linear algebra, complex variables, etc.).

 

[EyeSeeCold]

The problem is you don't like memorization? But you like deduction? I think there are two types of math: Imagination Math vs. Memory Math.

What's this 'imagination math' you speak of?

If you aren't willing/able to put in the time, there is really nothing anyone can do for you.

Yes, I understand. If I don't make it this time, I'll try again with a better schedule. But my mathematical ego has really been deflated.

 

[Glordag]

What's this 'imagination math' you speak of?


Yes, I understand. If I don't make it this time, I'll try again with a better schedule. But my mathematical ego has really been deflated.

If you have the desire, don't let it get to you. In high school my friend and I both took the advanced math classes (Pre-calc through calc 3/diff eq). As I said before, I did very well, but I honestly wasn't all that interested by it. It was intriguing, but not enough that I did much outside of class with it. My friend didn't do nearly as well (had a couple of C's and not many A's), but was very much interested in it.

When we went to college I did not perform nearly as well, and he soared. My grades gradually declined from something like A/A-/B+/B the first semester to A/C/C- the last semester, while he pretty much got straight A's all the way through. Now he's finishing up his doctoral work in an actuarial program while I dropped out of a pure(abstract) mathematical ph.d program because I was burnt out, incredibly stressed, and lacked focus.

If it's something you want, then you should find a way to make it happen.

 

[Words]

There is abstract math and applied math, if that's what you mean. The problem is that most physical science/engineering disciplines are going to be using applied math, and you still have to go through a large number of applied math courses to major in abstract math (generally through calculus 3, differential equations, linear algebra, complex variables, etc.).

No. I'm creating my own dichotomy. The dichotomy I'm trying to describe is centered not on the subject but the way of engaging the subject. I think the topic is as influential to you as the way you engage the topic. Debates, for example, make things interesting. And when things are interesting, you do well.

What's this 'imagination math' you speak of?

The way I understood what you meant by 'process', wherein you said something like "2 + 2 = 4 because (1 + 1) + (1+1) = 4", is that you thrive on open deduction. What you said as "process" is what I meant by imagination.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

The way I understood what you meant by 'process', wherein you said something like "2 + 2 = 4 because (1 + 1) + (1+1) = 4", is that you thrive on open deduction. What you said as "process" is what I meant by imagination.

Oh well yeah. The basics of my understanding is that I need to comprehend the appropriate formula and then be able to process, i.e. deduction.

 

[BigApplePi]

It's not so much that my professor or the work is incomprehensible. It's that I need to realize for myself why 2+2 = 4. I have to go through the process of finding out that 2=1+1 and 4=1+1+1+1 so 2+2=1+1+1+1=4. It's the process, I need to process information first before I can understand it. There is no time for processing in my schedule, which is totally all over the place. The answer is structure, but there's nothing I can do now, except hopelessly try to memorize everything.

IcyCold. The advice on this thread all seems very good. What you say here intrigues me though. I have a degree in math and taught calculus in grad school a long time ago.

You say you want to "process" information to understand it. One thing is important in math besides the usual. That is definitions. A definition is a new concept, sort of, and you must memorize that. In the beginning it is necessary to memorize what 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, etc. are. Thinking of 4 as 1+1+1+1 is not the way I'd go about it. 4 is the successor of 3. 4 = 3 + 1. 3 = 2 + 1. That way when you get to 27 you don't have to add up all those 1's. 27 = 26 + 1. Or if you memorize a few basic multiplication tables, 27 = 3 * 3 * 3. Do you see the difference between what I said here and what you said?

The work problems they give you help you learn the definitions. After that maybe you remember a few basic things. I don't have a very good memory at all. I want to understand also. So I try to remember a few basics and then rely on logic to go ahead. Memorization will get you only so far before your memory leads you astray and betrays you.

I wonder if I've said enough to get this across???

 

[EyeSeeCold]

^ I've already commented on that, the memorization of formulas. That's the only thing in which I need make an effort to remember. Once I understand the formula(and definitions, the basics to a subject) everything else comes to me intuitively by processing the problem.

As Words pointed out, my mind works in deductions.

 

[BigApplePi]

Well good.

 

[dark]

I haven't read this all but, are you taking calc online? I would never do that, I did once, failed it, took harder calc class in lectures passed with a B, online classes are hard for me so I refuse to take them anymore.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

No, at college. Though without being integrated in the lectures, I might as well have took the classes online for the difficulty I have.

 

[Ermine]

EyeSeeCold, if it helps any, I'm in the same situation in calculus. I failed a couple tests in a row before getting to the D category. At least I still have a C... Though believe me, it gets better from here if you can get precalc down. Calculus requires more imagination instead of just pure number crunching. It's a lot more interesting than any other math course I've taken.

As for your issues not having enough time to deduct everything for yourself, it's critical to have a little faith in what you're being taught. It also drives me nuts that I don't know why what I'm doing works. Before long, it's apparent why things are the way they are. For example, there are many preCalc concepts I don't need the formula for anymore either because I have been taught a better easier way, or because it's simply more intuitive.

Also, there's a way to get around memorizing formulas. In PreCalc, there are usually graphical explanations for the principles the formulas are trying to express. If you take the time to figure out the concept graphically, you won't need the formula.

If you just don't have a talent for math, there are plenty of other things a thinker can do. That being said, if you're absolutely passionate about engineering and are good at the other subjects involved, I say plow through the math and conquer it. If not, there are more fish in the sea. I had to realize this with my computer science major. I really want to be good at the skills that it requires, but I would be shortchanging myself by choosing a career where all the required skills are acquired. I think I found a happy medium with industrial design (combines my artsy and technical sides).

There's light at the end of the tunnel if you're willing to walk toward it.

 

[RedNeckINTP]

If it makes you feel any better ESC I was completely incapable of what I was capable of when I was a youngster. Some people cannot force themselves to be what they think they should be or be convinced they need this that or the other. DO NOT get discouraged, be what you know you are and move forward.

 

[DaDaMan]

perhaps you should consider your approach to calculus. Instead of studying Calculus just because its part of your degree or because you need to do it to become an engineer, you probably need a better reason. Ask yourself a few questions, like, why should I study Calculus? why is it important for me? do I appreciate the significance Calculus?

Then you need to look at your approach in terms of actual study, like what method am I using to study this? one thing that works for me when it comes to subjects like calculus is to contextualize it and make it relevant to me. I will list the technique\method\concept I learned and next to each provide a one liner description of the concept\technique, then another one liner describing the application and a final applied example of the method....

technique\concept (eg. chain rule, mean value theorem)
-description of concept & application (what its generally used for)
-applied example of the techique

that helps me put things into context, otherwise I just end up learning what feels like a few discrete unrelated arbitary abstract methods without any context, then I end of forgetting it all....hope that makes sense

here is something else that may help...some techniques to create a structured approach to studying university math
http://www.stanford.edu/class/math41/jasp.html

 

[MunkySpanker]

There goes my dream of becoming a computer engineer.. I pretty much have a guaranteed Fail .


Maybe I can join the circus.....

sympathetic: it's okay, just one subject, just one class out of them all.

analytical: you seem smart enough to engineer your own life; I deduce you, either consciously or subconsciously, really do not want to be a computer engineer and are "engineering" your own FAIL -- bc INTP's are able to master anything they 'want' -- you must not want to pass nor be a comp eng

asshole: you f'in dumbass, it's precalculus, how the hell are you going to pass college?

advice: maybe if you trick yourself to 'want' it... like, bet the hottest girl in the class if you both make A's then you treat yourselves to Pinkberry, and that you should study together for the next exam.

ttyl.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

As for your issues not having enough time to deduct everything for yourself, it's critical to have a little faith in what you're being taught. It also drives me nuts that I don't know why what I'm doing works.

If you just don't have a talent for math, there are plenty of other things a thinker can do. That being said, if you're absolutely passionate about engineering and are good at the other subjects involved, I say plow through the math and conquer it.

There's light at the end of the tunnel if you're willing to walk toward it.

I thought I replied to this...

It's not about faith. That's just the way my brain works. I'm pretty sure it's a matter of introversion vs extraversion. Back in highschool, the classes were more interactive, and I could readily process stuff. Now I just stare at the board brainlessly.

perhaps you should consider your approach to calculus. Instead of studying Calculus just because its part of your degree or because you need to do it to become an engineer, you probably need a better reason. Ask yourself a few questions, like, why should I study Calculus? why is it important for me? do I appreciate the significance Calculus?

I don't really consider my math skills to be important, so I couldn't fool myself with an arbitrary reason.

 

[DaDaMan]

I don't really consider my math skills to be important, so I couldn't fool myself with an arbitrary reason.

who said anything about fooling yourself? if you don't consider math skills to be important then perhaps you are studying the wrong degrree, almost all the advanced electronic\computer engineering subjects require a thorough understanding of math such as calc and diff. So if you are struggling with a optional precursor to actual university levek math, then perhaps its time to reconsider your choices, Why do you want to study computer engineering?

 

[EyeSeeCold]

who said anything about fooling yourself? if you don't consider math skills to be important then perhaps you are studying the wrong degrree, almost all the advanced electronic\computer engineering subjects require a thorough understanding of math such as calc and diff. So if you are struggling with a optional precursor to actual university levek math, then perhaps its time to reconsider your choices, Why do you want to study computer engineering?

I'm not sure if I expressed myself correctly. I respect math, and I enjoy practicing it when I can understand it, but I don't have any motivation to pursue math for math's sake. If it is a requirement to reach another goal then I am willing but I cannot change my perspective on math because ultimately it will only be an obstacle I need to clear.

I am interested in Computer Engineering for it's use of systems and electricity.

 

[ashishbandhu]

hii,
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