Sleep Stuff

[CrayCrayPoTayTay]

Alright INTPs, I have been studying sleep medicine for the past (approximately) 11 years and have read some interesting stuff relating to sleep on this forum. I would like to make myself available to (as concisely as my current knowledge and research can afford) answer any questions about difficulty's initiating/maintaining sleep, insomnia, Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (particularly CBT-I for Insomnia) and general sleep hygiene and habit related questions. Please be aware that I am not a medical doctor and any information you receive from me is only meant to be informative, not diagnostic. The standard required parameter's for a patient seen in my facility include the utilization of Polysomnographic Recordings (which include Electroencephalography, Electrocardiography, Electromyography and multiple others) which then have a Preliminary and Interpretation report attached previous to any diagnosis of one of the approximately 88 disorders of sleep. Naturally, any information obtained in the following posts (including ones where I may use such verbiage as "that sounds like a classic case of") are not comprehensive when absent the required additional diagnostic documentation.

I will do my best to respond to the posts as timely as possible during my bi to tri-weekly logins.

That all being said, I will kick this off with a response to Polaris as long as she doesn't mind?:

I drink 2 or more shots of espresso per day. Yeah, kind of obvious that one....but I had sleeping problems long before I started on the caffeine thing.



Yeah, I would be interested.

Thanks for the book recommendation.

One of the most common issues with sleep disorders is identifying the onset. Some people are more biologically inclined to sleep disorders (i.e. enlarged tonsils, sizable tongue, large neck circumference, high muscle mass etc) which makes the identification of said possible disorder's genesis increasingly difficult. If one was to perform a SWOT analysis of an Independent Diagnostic Testing Facility's Opportunities (such as competitors), it would be quickly indicated after much research that caffeine consumption is one of the primary approaches a person will pursuit when compensating for excessive daytime somnolence. I liken this approach to the application of a Band-Aid on the p3n!$ (<---totes a scientific term) for a broken arm. It's not gonna do a whole heap of benefit for the broken arm but it may certainly pacify the attention paid to the pain. So investigating the Opportunities of a Sleep Lab would include the "patient demographic" of those who are dedicated to selling Band-Aids: your local coffee company (amongst many others).

A feeling of inadequate quality or quantity of sleep will usually drive people to use their cognitive functioning brain to correct the problematic experiences (i.e. tiredness, sexual dysfunction, stroke, hypertension, headaches, anxiety, nervousness, depression, stroke, Afib, diabetes II and OH, so many others) that may indeed be a result of the sleeping brain.

 

[Cavallier]

My issues, I assume, are stress related. My brain won't turn off even if I think I feel calm. It churns away digging up old experiences and making me relive my past. These memories are vivid and I rehash them over and over. I don't take in any caffeine and I workout regularly. I'm not overweight and have never been diagnosed with any psychological ussues.

I can sleep anywhere at any time. I just cover my head and zonk out. Most of the time I fall asleep easily and usually within 2 or 3 minutes of laying down. I often fall asleep mid sentence at night when I'm in bed taking to my SO. However, when I have bouts of insomnia I can't do anything about it except ride it out. Eventually I go back to my normal sleep patterns.

 

[CrayCrayPoTayTay]

My issues, I assume, are stress related. My brain won't turn off even if I think I feel calm. It churns away digging up old experiences and making me relive my past. These memories are vivid and I rehash them over and over. I don't take in any caffeine and I workout regularly. I'm not overweight and have never been diagnosed with any psychological ussues.

I can sleep anywhere at any time. I just cover my head and zonk out. Most of the time I fall asleep easily and usually within 2 or 3 minutes of laying down. I often fall asleep mid sentence at night when I'm in bed taking to my SO. However, when I have bouts of insomnia I can't do anything about it except ride it out. Eventually I go back to my normal sleep patterns.

Hi Cavalier, thank you for this information. What you're describing is the classic symptoms of a hyper-stimulated central nervous system (which can certainly be made more apparent during times of decreased environmental stimuli i.e. "time for bed", as well as biologically symptomatic of something more significant occurring). When our central nervous system has, for instance, too frequent a stimulus placed upon the "fight or flight" response (as occurs with an elevated frequency for patient's with snoring or OSA and many others) during times that are meant to be rejuvenative and restorative (sleep) there is a compensatory experience during our cognitive hours (inability to initiate sleep, revisiting of thoughts that were similar to such a level of stimulation - since, as neurology teaches, the secret to memory is emotion, there tends to be an emotional association to this hyper-stimulation as well). So if that all resonates with you through the incessant parenthetical speaking and verbose wording, cool. But again, my bias is linking things towards sleep. There would be many additional variables required for a more adequate assessment to as to facilitate the implementation of a "plan" to fix what you indicate.

You go on to indicate a level of excessive somnolence, as being able to initiate sleep too quickly can be as precisely indicative of a problem as its converse.

Please feel free to PM me if I can be of any further assistance (if this assisted at all).

Regards

 

[Polaris]

Alright INTPs, I have been studying sleep medicine for the past (approximately) 11 years and have read some interesting stuff relating to sleep on this forum. I would like to make myself available to (as concisely as my current knowledge and research can afford) answer any questions about difficulty's initiating/maintaining sleep, insomnia, Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (particularly CBT-I for Insomnia) and general sleep hygiene and habit related questions. Please be aware that I am not a medical doctor and any information you receive from me is only meant to be informative, not diagnostic. The standard required parameter's for a patient seen in my facility include the utilization of Polysomnographic Recordings (which include Electroencephalography, Electrocardiography, Electromyography and multiple others) which then have a Preliminary and Interpretation report attached previous to any diagnosis of one of the approximately 88 disorders of sleep. Naturally, any information obtained in the following posts (including ones where I may use such verbiage as "that sounds like a classic case of") are not comprehensive when absent the required additional diagnostic documentation.

I will do my best to respond to the posts as timely as possible during my bi to tri-weekly logins.

That all being said, I will kick this off with a response to Polaris as long as she doesn't mind?:

Nah, of course not -- I was waiting for this thread to pop up. Thank you for taking the time to make this thread, and sorry about delayed response. I have been meaning to get back to it for the last couple of days.

One of the most common issues with sleep disorders is identifying the onset. Some people are more biologically inclined to sleep disorders (i.e. enlarged tonsils, sizable tongue, large neck circumference, high muscle mass etc) which makes the identification of said possible disorder's genesis increasingly difficult. If one was to perform a SWOT analysis of an Independent Diagnostic Testing Facility's Opportunities (such as competitors), it would be quickly indicated after much research that caffeine consumption is one of the primary approaches a person will pursuit when compensating for excessive daytime somnolence. I liken this approach to the application of a Band-Aid on the p3n!$ (<---totes a scientific term) for a broken arm. It's not gonna do a whole heap of benefit for the broken arm but it may certainly pacify the attention paid to the pain. So investigating the Opportunities of a Sleep Lab would include the "patient demographic" of those who are dedicated to selling Band-Aids: your local coffee company (amongst many others).

A feeling of inadequate quality or quantity of sleep will usually drive people to use their cognitive functioning brain to correct the problematic experiences (i.e. tiredness, sexual dysfunction, stroke, hypertension, headaches, anxiety, nervousness, depression, stroke, Afib, diabetes II and OH, so many others) that may indeed be a result of the sleeping brain.

I didn't really have serious sleep issues until about 13 years ago when I was working on the opposite side of town and had to get up at 4:30 AM to get to work at 7:30 AM. I wouldn't get home till about 8:30-9:00 PM, and then, repeat. I lived somewhere where there was little privacy and any small movement or noise would cause me to wake up or not be able to go to sleep; it was sort of an anxious vicious cycle as I lay there awake, counting down the hours I had to sleep before I had to get up in the dark and go off to work. It became a habitual sleeping pattern, almost as if my brain had rewired itself into this anxious pattern.

I have cut and pasted a response form another thread that describes my issues with relaxation:

I do also have an issue with these crazy, racing thoughts going for what seems to be hours sometimes, even after I've managed to go into some sort of semi-sleep. If I wake up, it's at the slightest disturbance and I'm straight back into fight-mode; thoughts racing along from where I dropped off last time. This has increased as I've become more anxious lately. The thoughts can sometimes be very creative, in which case, of course I never remember them the next day; or they can be seemingly chaotic and random. My eyes seem to be flitting back and forth with the thoughts, even as I keep my eyes shut.

I have been spending decent amounts of time on the pc, plus I'm currently weaning myself off Lexapro (escitalopram), which is an antidepressant that seemed to help me go to sleep, but also caused me to wake up too early in the morning. The drug made me sort of indifferent as well as having a pretty significant effect on my concentration which has caused me to nearly drop out of uni (I'm in my last semester of a bachelor -- only one subject left), but I'm still hanging in there as the effects of the drug seems to be wearing off. I can now pick up a book and read a whole chapter without having to revisit previous paragraphs or pages. But the result of me suddenly performing poorly academically has been another source of anxiety and worry. I also had two people very close to me pass away over the last 18 months, and I've been mulling over their deaths ad nauseum.

The issue now is to get to sleep. I sometimes spend time on the pc right up to bed time, but am trying to put the laptop away about 1-2 hours before I go to bed now. It seems to help, especially if I read in bed. Problem is, if there is the slightest disturbance I'm instantly awake, like a cat; and then I find it impossible to go back to sleep. I will then usually fall asleep at maybe 2-3 AM, and then wake up at dawn, so I'm getting no more than 3-4 hours sleep at the most on average 4-5 days a week.

I currently have no exercise regime as I have been unmotivated to to pretty much anything, I used to go for long walks, but have a back problem that is causing me a great deal of pain when walking for more than 20 minutes at the time.

I have a normal, healthy weight and eat healthy, trying to avoid sugar. I have no significant ENT problems, but I have this intermittent dry cough at night, which wakes me up. I have seen GPs about it and they cannot work out what the problem is. I do currently rely on 2 or more shots of espresso per day to help me kick-start my tired and sluggish brain.

Hmm...reading this it seems rather obvious what I should be doing. I have actually managed to get a decent night sleep now and then, but the main problem is waking up super-alert and not going back to sleep for hours, which seems to be the predominant pattern.

 

[CrayCrayPoTayTay]

Nah, of course not -- I was waiting for this thread to pop up. Thank you for taking the time to make this thread, and sorry about delayed response. I have been meaning to get back to it for the last couple of days.





I didn't really have serious sleep issues until about 13 years ago when I was working on the opposite side of town and had to get up at 4:30 AM to get to work at 7:30 AM. I wouldn't get home till about 8:30-9:00 PM, and then, repeat. I lived somewhere where there was little privacy and any small movement or noise would cause me to wake up or not be able to go to sleep; it was sort of an anxious vicious cycle as I lay there awake, counting down the hours I had to sleep before I had to get up in the dark and go off to work. It became a habitual sleeping pattern, almost as if my brain had rewired itself into this anxious pattern.

I have cut and pasted a response form another thread that describes my issues with relaxation:

I do also have an issue with these crazy, racing thoughts going for what seems to be hours sometimes, even after I've managed to go into some sort of semi-sleep. If I wake up, it's at the slightest disturbance and I'm straight back into fight-mode; thoughts racing along from where I dropped off last time. This has increased as I've become more anxious lately. The thoughts can sometimes be very creative, in which case, of course I never remember them the next day; or they can be seemingly chaotic and random. My eyes seem to be flitting back and forth with the thoughts, even as I keep my eyes shut.

I have been spending decent amounts of time on the pc, plus I'm currently weaning myself off Lexapro (escitalopram), which is an antidepressant that seemed to help me go to sleep, but also caused me to wake up too early in the morning. The drug made me sort of indifferent as well as having a pretty significant effect on my concentration which has caused me to nearly drop out of uni (I'm in my last semester of a bachelor -- only one subject left), but I'm still hanging in there as the effects of the drug seems to be wearing off. I can now pick up a book and read a whole chapter without having to revisit previous paragraphs or pages. But the result of me suddenly performing poorly academically has been another source of anxiety and worry. I also had two people very close to me pass away over the last 18 months, and I've been mulling over their deaths ad nauseum.

The issue now is to get to sleep. I sometimes spend time on the pc right up to bed time, but am trying to put the laptop away about 1-2 hours before I go to bed now. It seems to help, especially if I read in bed. Problem is, if there is the slightest disturbance I'm instantly awake, like a cat; and then I find it impossible to go back to sleep. I will then usually fall asleep at maybe 2-3 AM, and then wake up at dawn, so I'm getting no more than 3-4 hours sleep at the most on average 4-5 days a week.

I currently have no exercise regime as I have been unmotivated to to pretty much anything, I used to go for long walks, but have a back problem that is causing me a great deal of pain when walking for more than 20 minutes at the time.

I have a normal, healthy weight and eat healthy, trying to avoid sugar. I have no significant ENT problems, but I have this intermittent dry cough at night, which wakes me up. I have seen GPs about it and they cannot work out what the problem is. I do currently rely on 2 or more shots of espresso per day to help me kick-start my tired and sluggish brain.

Hmm...reading this it seems rather obvious what I should be doing. I have actually managed to get a decent night sleep now and then, but the main problem is waking up super-alert and not going back to sleep for hours, which seems to be the predominant pattern.

I'm going to hit as much of this as I can since I have not yet figured out the "multi-quote" button. The first thing I want to explain is the "change" to our sleep pattern that occurs as we age. During our infancy and earlier stages of development we have a surplus of our deeper (or Delta, N3) stages of sleep. This deeper stage of sleep (NOT to be confused with best or most restorative, which is a different concept entirely and will be illustrated after this) is also when we are emiting our growth hormones and requires the loudest sound stimulus to arouse us from sleep; as a product of aging we emit less growth hormone and congruently experience a continuously diminishing amount of this deeper stage of sleep (which includes an elevated frequency of Delta waves - the deeper stage of sleep that is, not the diminishing).

The unfortunate truth about sleep; getting to a "deeper" stage of sleep or "sleeping hard" is of little to no significance to the overall feeling of rejuvenation during the morning. The natural sleep architecture of the human being includes a progression from N1, N2, N3 and REM in a manner that is comprehensive. Interruptions to the contiguous nature of this sleep architecture are what indeed cause the lack of feeling restored in the morning. As a product of this explanation I implore you to place as important the desire to sleep in a room that is free from unnecessary sound and light stimuli (especially as you become more "seasoned") and maintain the bedroom for only two purposes: sleep and horizontal (shoot, sometimes vertical) approaches to reproduction

The above list is comprehensive, notice reading is not on it. It is also not recommended to not perform the latter within an hour of approaching the previous.

Sleep is really something that needs to be "approached" instead of just performed when we are tired. If it is difficult to initiate or maintain sleep after: not undergoing unnecessary additional stimulation within an hour of bedtime, sleep is obtained within 15 minutes of lying down to do so, alcohol and caffeine have not been consumed within 3-4 hours (depending on amount and individual metabolic rates), it is highly recommended you have a trained professional review your sleep hygiene/habits and have a Polysomnographic Recording of some sort performed (that is inclusive of thoracoabdominal effort, pulse oximetry, EEG patterns and electromusculography).

Caffeine is the devil, and my primary true competition. Anyway, Starbucks WiFi is suffering from high utilization so I'm back to work. Was this helpful? Hope I addressed everything, I'm seriously not as old as I sound re: difficulties with this forum.

 

[Fukyo]

It's hard to explain my issues with sleep, but I'll try to break it down in as coherent way as possible and list all possibly relevant information.

My biggest, most enduring issue is the inability to maintain a "normal" diurnal sleeping pattern for any long stretch of time. I have always tended towards being nocturnal, even as a baby. Having a fixed schedule (ie. having to wake up at the same time in the morning almost every day) never helped much. When I was on this kind of schedule, I slept about 4 hours a night, and had naps in the afternoon. I was miserable, stressed out and constantly sick.

I don't feel like I suffer from insomnia per se. There are times when I have trouble falling asleep but in general, it seems that for some reason my body just wants to sleep during the day.

As a result of the fact my bed time is continually moving forward with each passing day, I sometimes end up in a in such a state when I barely see any sunlight during my waking hours, which makes me feel depressed and listless, and in general just prevents me from having normal activities. The "inability" get up earlier, makes me have to forcefully reboot myself by staying up and enduring tiredness so I would go to bed later and push my schedule. The problem with this, besides that fact it's obviously taxing is that it doesn't have any lasting result, because my bed time just keeps being moved forward.

Another issue that I have is that when I am diurnal, I often experience excessive daytime sleepiness. After as little as 6 hours of being awake I get hit with overwhelming tiredness and simply must sleep. The onset of this sleepiness varies. The interesting thing is this never happens when I'm nocturnal. I'm not sure if it's a result of exhaustion from forcing myself to stay awake or something else. This naps are also very problematic because sometimes I sleep a whole of 5 hours and feel fully rested in the evening and night, feeling no need to sleep.

Thirdly, needing excessive sleep. Sometimes I sleep as much as 12 hours, but when this happens it's typically around 10 hours of sleep. This happens more often when I'm nocturnal than diurnal. Hypersomnia is typically followed by unusual sluggishness when waking up and needing a lot of time to "wake up". When diurnal I sleep as little as 5 hours sometimes and can't get myself to fall asleep again.

I drink little to no alcohol and consume about 100 ml of turkish coffee daily. I don't drink coffee for its stimulating effects but taste. I never noticed any particular effect from coffee. I've only been a regular drinker for a few years and have no addiction to speak of. I'm very restless and mentally active. Overstimulated perhaps? I suffer from various types of anxieties and have excessive reactions to them on the physical level (eg. sweating, heart palpitations, dizziness) and depression of varying strength, although I'm not under any therapy for these issues. I have a stressful life in general.

At times when I get to bed I spend literally hours tossing and turning, my mind racing with thoughts and usually fairly intense thoughts. Like figuring things out, articulating to myself in my head, categorizing, combing through memories of that day, imagining hypothetical scenarios. I often have very vivid dreams and at times can recall several from a single night. When stressed out I get a lot of fragmented sleep and wake up often. I have experienced a handful of episodes of sleep paralysis. I also feel I have some awareness of dreaming, but not quite on the level of lucid dreaming, though I think it's more of a awareness of being woken up briefly from the sleep and continuing to be aware of what I was dreaming + imagination? I have no idea.

I'm 24 years old, not very physically active, have normal weight and sometimes suffer from a congested nose owing to a dust allergy in the past ~ 2 years although I trace the point when the nocturnal tendency became really debilitating to about 16-18. I spend too much time on the computer due to being an information/media junkie and requiring high levels of stimulation in terms of music, reading, etc. more often than not.


Input is appreciated.

 

[CrayCrayPoTayTay]

It's hard to explain my issues with sleep, but I'll try to break it down in as coherent way as possible and list all possibly relevant information.

My biggest, most enduring issue is the inability to maintain a "normal" diurnal sleeping pattern for any long stretch of time. I have always tended towards being nocturnal, even as a baby. Having a fixed schedule (ie. having to wake up at the same time in the morning almost every day) never helped much. When I was on this kind of schedule, I slept about 4 hours a night, and had naps in the afternoon. I was miserable, stressed out and constantly sick.

I don't feel like I suffer from insomnia per se. There are times when I have trouble falling asleep but in general, it seems that for some reason my body just wants to sleep during the day.

As a result of the fact my bed time is continually moving forward with each passing day, I sometimes end up in a in such a state when I barely see any sunlight during my waking hours, which makes me feel depressed and listless, and in general just prevents me from having normal activities. The "inability" get up earlier, makes me have to forcefully reboot myself by staying up and enduring tiredness so I would go to bed later and push my schedule. The problem with this, besides that fact it's obviously taxing is that it doesn't have any lasting result, because my bed time just keeps being moved forward.

Another issue that I have is that when I am diurnal, I often experience excessive daytime sleepiness. After as little as 6 hours of being awake I get hit with overwhelming tiredness and simply must sleep. The onset of this sleepiness varies. The interesting thing is this never happens when I'm nocturnal. I'm not sure if it's a result of exhaustion from forcing myself to stay awake or something else. This naps are also very problematic because sometimes I sleep a whole of 5 hours and feel fully rested in the evening and night, feeling no need to sleep.

Thirdly, needing excessive sleep. Sometimes I sleep as much as 12 hours, but when this happens it's typically around 10 hours of sleep. This happens more often when I'm nocturnal than diurnal. Hypersomnia is typically followed by unusual sluggishness when waking up and needing a lot of time to "wake up". When diurnal I sleep as little as 5 hours sometimes and can't get myself to fall asleep again.

I drink little to no alcohol and consume about 100 ml of turkish coffee daily. I don't drink coffee for its stimulating effects but taste. I never noticed any particular effect from coffee. I've only been a regular drinker for a few years and have no addiction to speak of. I'm very restless and mentally active. Overstimulated perhaps? I suffer from various types of anxieties and have excessive reactions to them on the physical level (eg. sweating, heart palpitations, dizziness) and depression of varying strength, although I'm not under any therapy for these issues. I have a stressful life in general.

At times when I get to bed I spend literally hours tossing and turning, my mind racing with thoughts and usually fairly intense thoughts. Like figuring things out, articulating to myself in my head, categorizing, combing through memories of that day, imagining hypothetical scenarios. I often have very vivid dreams and at times can recall several from a single night. When stressed out I get a lot of fragmented sleep and wake up often. I have experienced a handful of episodes of sleep paralysis. I also feel I have some awareness of dreaming, but not quite on the level of lucid dreaming, though I think it's more of a awareness of being woken up briefly from the sleep and continuing to be aware of what I was dreaming + imagination? I have no idea.

I'm 24 years old, not very physically active, have normal weight and sometimes suffer from a congested nose owing to a dust allergy in the past ~ 2 years although I trace the point when the nocturnal tendency became really debilitating to about 16-18. I spend too much time on the computer due to being an information/media junkie and requiring high levels of stimulation in terms of music, reading, etc. more often than not.


Input is appreciated.

Thank you for the information. For all intensive purposes of political correctness I'm just going to call you Fer :Þ

What I'm hearing from this information is unfortunately a "normal" product of the education system being relatively fascist in its uneducated approach re: the initiation of school time and how that infringes upon the natural Circadian Rhythm of a night owl. Being a night owl (there are multiple intrinsic sleep cycles to human beings, early birds and night owls most notably) and interacting "correctly" with the systems most societies impose upon their citizens is met with quite derogatory connotations, and thusly, said night owl will usually make changes (to something intrinsic, always a bad idea) to operate better until the standard "bottle and explosion" previous to complete disregard. For instance, most night owls are doing, at the times early birds are waking up energized and ready for school, many a biological sequence of events that facilitates focus, short-term memory creation (associated with the "learning" required of us in school) and growth is being infringed upon by external systems.

This is an important concept worthy of highlighting: the way we wake up feeling refreshed in the mornings is not by obtaining a certain magical stage or depth of sleep, rather as a product of the completion of an uninterrupted sleep architecture 3-5 times. This is the relative nature of the "8 hours of sleep" conclusion incorrectly obtained by many as to how to define a normal required amount of sleep; some humans require 5 hours for full rejuvenation (which means 8 will cause EDS - excessive daytime somnolence) and some require 12.

Another interesting note, the intrinsic sleep cycle of humans in the absence of light is an approximately 36 hour free-floating circadian rhythm, during which time 12 hours of sleep is obtained and 24 hours of wakefulness are experienced. The key to this concept, as pertinent for you, is to obtain that light stimulation as early and with as high a frequency as possible (within 30 minutes of waking up, obtain >15 mins).

Oh right, to revisit and conclude upon the previous illustration: when the school system continuously interrupts these important cycles for those of us who are night owls (yea, me too) they are in essence causing an attention deficit, which certainly later can become a disorder (when caffeine will not have the intended affect).
Many people with this ADD/ADHD symptomology will congruently experience "itchy scratchy sensations, tingling and a feeling of needing to move their legs to get comfortable prior to initiation of sleep. A personal assessment of Iron levels is therein indicated as the first step, as well as consultation with a professional to identify any potential Restless Legs Syndrome or PLMD (Periodic Limb Movement Disorder).

Hmm.... that's everything, re: your responses about difficulty initiating sleep please reference some of the above responses and inquire if more information is required.

With a little bit of Fert, Fer, you can regain control of your Circadian Rhythm

EDIT** Oh snap, I did not read through your information comprehensively. My apologies.

How frequently does your paralysis occur? Is it immediately following a dream? Have you ever experienced hallucinations previous to the initiation of, or upon arousing from, sleep? Have you ever initiated sleep following an intense emotion?
^ These will be helpful, though I'm not sure a public question-driven assessment will be beneficial (or HIP, HIP-HOP, HIP HOP ANONYMOUS.... I mean HIPPA compliant), perhaps we should PM? It's comfort level assessment time for you I suppose.

 

[Polaris]

I'm going to hit as much of this as I can since I have not yet figured out the "multi-quote" button.

Spoiler

Yeah, it's a little confusing, but the multi-quote button is used for quoting multiple posters in a thread. It's the little plus sign on the bottom right of every post which you can hit for as many posters that you wish to quote in one reply. So you hit, for example, three posts and then scroll to the bottom of the page where you hit "post reply" which brings you to the "reply to thread" page. Then you can edit as much of each post as you want, using the "wrap quote tags around selected text" function to quote parts of each post.

I hope it's okay I just call you Cray? Your name is kinda...long

The first thing I want to explain is the "change" to our sleep pattern that occurs as we age. During our infancy and earlier stages of development we have a surplus of our deeper (or Delta, N3) stages of sleep. This deeper stage of sleep (NOT to be confused with best or most restorative, which is a different concept entirely and will be illustrated after this) is also when we are emiting our growth hormones and requires the loudest sound stimulus to arouse us from sleep; as a product of aging we emit less growth hormone and congruently experience a continuously diminishing amount of this deeper stage of sleep (which includes an elevated frequency of Delta waves - the deeper stage of sleep that is, not the diminishing).

Okay, that's quite interesting. Hence the seeming impossibility of waking up teenagers.

The unfortunate truth about sleep; getting to a "deeper" stage of sleep or "sleeping hard" is of little to no significance to the overall feeling of rejuvenation during the morning. The natural sleep architecture of the human being includes a progression from N1, N2, N3 and REM in a manner that is comprehensive.

Is the N1- REM dependent on the circadian rhythm? That is, is it possible to also achieve this sleep sequence at any time of the day, provided the conditions are optimal?

Interruptions to the contiguous nature of this sleep architecture are what indeed cause the lack of feeling restored in the morning. As a product of this explanation I implore you to place as important the desire to sleep in a room that is free from unnecessary sound and light stimuli (especially as you become more "seasoned") and maintain the bedroom for only two purposes: sleep and horizontal (shoot, sometimes vertical) approaches to reproduction

Okay. I think the interruptions are the main problem for me as the room is too light, and there are noises from the periphery from activities of various night-owls in the household. Plus, there's a feline intercept-factor which, while being kinda nice, it's also a source of frustration and sometimes murderous thoughts particularly as the feline is prone to lying across my face whilst emitting purring noises of considerable amplitude. ^..^

The above list is comprehensive, notice reading is not on it. It is also not recommended to not perform the latter within an hour of approaching the previous.

What if I have come to associate reading with relaxation --> sleep? I often find if I go to bed and don't have a book to focus on I will relapse into the racing thoughts.

What are the reasons for this recommendation? Is it because it is considered to be a stimulant? Forgive me if this is a silly question, but I am interested in the underlying details.

Sleep is really something that needs to be "approached" instead of just performed when we are tired. If it is difficult to initiate or maintain sleep after: not undergoing unnecessary additional stimulation within an hour of bedtime, sleep is obtained within 15 minutes of lying down to do so, alcohol and caffeine have not been consumed within 3-4 hours (depending on amount and individual metabolic rates), it is highly recommended you have a trained professional review your sleep hygiene/habits and have a Polysomnographic Recording of some sort performed (that is inclusive of thoracoabdominal effort, pulse oximetry, EEG patterns and electromusculography).

I see. That is a good differentiation, approach vs. performance.

I do not drink alcohol, or smoke cigarettes/use recreational drugs, and I only have caffeine any time from early morning until 3 PM. I try to go to bed around 10:00 - 11:30 PM, but often end up lying awake until 2 or 3 AM if I'm woken up during the early phase. I cannot remember last time I managed to fall asleep within 15 minutes....it usually takes me at least one hour, even if I manage to stop my brain from generating thought. I will still have mental imagery which can jump into active thinking if I'm not conscious of maintaining a still mind.

So, having a professional review is probably ideally next on the list if I cannot resolve sleep issues through the process of elimination.

Caffeine is the devil, and my primary true competition. Anyway, Starbucks WiFi is suffering from high utilization so I'm back to work. Was this helpful? Hope I addressed everything, I'm seriously not as old as I sound re: difficulties with this forum.

Yes it was very helpful, thank you very much for taking the time to answer (:

Re: age - I haven't even thought about that....

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

My apparent natural sleep cycle seems to be 8-12 hours sleep followed by 14-20 awake; just enough to wake up ~2-3 hours later the next day/night. Energetically, pretty much the same rhythm begins with each wake up. I can't do anything for the first 2-3 hours of the day or so (unless I'm fishing, then I can drive like a zombie. Though even in zombie mode my thoughts are racing, I just can't keep track) and then I go through 3-4 cycles of "get shit done" and "sit on ass" before sleeping again. No coffee/alcohol or medications of any kind for a long time. Brief forays with caffeine in high & low doses, THC, THC-A, nutmeg, psilocybin, mood stabilizers, and a few others, but all use is impulsive, infrequent, and seems to be on an axis independent of said apparent natural sleep cycle.

For the most part this pattern emerged junior year of high school (no substances except the odd SSRI mom slipped in the household's food/beverages, which I didn't find out about until I was 24. "I thought we could all use some"), though I never went to bed on time as a kid. I personally blame legos and the paranormal.

Psych diagnoses (manifest age 23-24, ~2 years ago) range from PTSD to schizoaffective, with variations of bipolar inbetween. Commonality seems to be something chronically askew with muh HPA axis and cortisol levels.

*EDIT: Oh, and 3-4 godly orgasmic episodes of sleep paralysis within those past 2 years, much more vivid dreams & more frequent dreams, increased frequency of nocturnal emission, and auditory, mild visual, and olfactory hallucinations while simultaneously under stress and isolated, coupled with cognitive breakdowns when encountering excessive stimulation. Caffeine was a component of this.

Also, I began sleeping on the floor ~3 years ago as well (bare wood between two blankets, baby ). Took about a week to get used to it, doesn't really bother me that much, imho.

Hit me.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

This looks like a very interesting thread in which there is a chance to learn something and undersand the issues connected with sleep.

It is accurate to say that my sleep is inefficient, given how I can sleep from 5-10 hours and not feeling rested. Usually I sleep for 6 to 7 hours, which is forced by the early hours I have to get up. I do not feel tired in the evenings and nights, but the schedule imposes that I go to sleep early. It takes some 5-20 minutes to fall asleep depending on the music I listen to and temperature in the room. Currently the nights are so hot that I cannot fall asleep for an hour. Also to note, I tried sleeping for as long as 12 hours or 4/8/4/8 patterns, 4 hours of sleep 8 hours of activity, which werent less effective in terms of rest compared to a single period of sleep, still little effectiveness.

It is similar to what some of you have noticed, that the necessity to wake at 6 am cuts my sleep time as I prefer to remain active during the night. I also have the recurring tiredness and moments of sleepiness during the afternoons when without physical activity or any work to focus on makes me fall asleep during the lectures and sometimes other classes. Unless I rest my head I am immediately woken up by the reaction to falling.

When tired I noticed some narcoleptic traits in that I can fall asleep both sitting and standing, without losing my position generally. Another thing is that during these moments I skip to the REM phase and remember dreams, even if something woke me up after a few minutes. I don't skip to the rem phase however when going to sleep in my bed, unless I fall asleep again in the morning, then the same thing may occur. Generally this happens to me when there is nothing for me to focus on, or I feel disinterest. I had two instances of this happening while I was driving a car, but admittedly, these were the times I got very little sleep and was forced to drive somewhere.

After waking up, I am almost unconscious (lowered ability to make decisions and focus) which lasts up to an hour, then I experience a general tiredness for up to three hours. If occupied, my activity and alertness increases from the late morning towards the afternoon, then lowers, later increases sharply from late afternoon and remains high until early morning hours around 3 to 4 am.

I do not rely on any substances or drugs, aside from the occasional pills as medicine (see nimesulide for headaches). At times I drink a strong tea, weekly or so.
I was diagnosed with some depressive states in the past and there were periods where I would sleep for the whole day, feeling tired every time I woke up, also during that time I didn't have a stable sleeping cycle and slept mostly during the day, while being active for the whole night, the reverse of the day/night standard.
I am not attending any therapy for this and I experience the depressive state regularly for about two months during the winter.

The above mentioned patterns began in my late teens 18 and continue to this day, 20.
I am of normal weight, low physical activity, most of the time I use and work with text and listen to music, also I have some neurological health problems including notably the migraines with auras and nausea. Sleep is the best help for headaches as in most cases the drugs are ineffective. After I wake up the pain is gone. In some cases it is impossible to fall asleep because of the headache.

I am interesting in what would you derive from this, if there is anything relevant or supporting some cases in what was provided.

 

[Minuend]

Do you have an opinion about alternative sleep cycles, Craycray? Like 20 minute nap every 4 hours or stuff like that

 

[CrayCrayPoTayTay]

Spoiler

Yeah, it's a little confusing, but the multi-quote button is used for quoting multiple posters in a thread. It's the little plus sign on the bottom right of every post which you can hit for as many posters that you wish to quote in one reply. So you hit, for example, three posts and then scroll to the bottom of the page where you hit "post reply" which brings you to the "reply to thread" page. Then you can edit as much of each post as you want, using the "wrap quote tags around selected text" function to quote parts of each post.

I hope it's okay I just call you Cray? Your name is kinda...long



Okay, that's quite interesting. Hence the seeming impossibility of waking up teenagers.



Is the N1- REM dependent on the circadian rhythm? That is, is it possible to also achieve this sleep sequence at any time of the day, provided the conditions are optimal?



Okay. I think the interruptions are the main problem for me as the room is too light, and there are noises from the periphery from activities of various night-owls in the household. Plus, there's a feline intercept-factor which, while being kinda nice, it's also a source of frustration and sometimes murderous thoughts particularly as the feline is prone to lying across my face whilst emitting purring noises of considerable amplitude. ^..^



What if I have come to associate reading with relaxation --> sleep? I often find if I go to bed and don't have a book to focus on I will relapse into the racing thoughts.

What are the reasons for this recommendation? Is it because it is considered to be a stimulant? Forgive me if this is a silly question, but I am interested in the underlying details.



I see. That is a good differentiation, approach vs. performance.

I do not drink alcohol, or smoke cigarettes/use recreational drugs, and I only have caffeine any time from early morning until 3 PM. I try to go to bed around 10:00 - 11:30 PM, but often end up lying awake until 2 or 3 AM if I'm woken up during the early phase. I cannot remember last time I managed to fall asleep within 15 minutes....it usually takes me at least one hour, even if I manage to stop my brain from generating thought. I will still have mental imagery which can jump into active thinking if I'm not conscious of maintaining a still mind.

So, having a professional review is probably ideally next on the list if I cannot resolve sleep issues through the process of elimination.



Yes it was very helpful, thank you very much for taking the time to answer (:

Re: age - I haven't even thought about that....

I'm comfortable with that level of assumed familiarity with the compilation of letters that form a sound, and the symbol associated with that sound having something to do with the consciousness with which you now communicate. You can call me Cray, Tay, Taytertay, whatever you may. I have no emotional connection to my username (of course, were this conversation happening in person my response would undoubtedly have been "no problem").

The sleep architecture (progression of the sleep stages) is just another aspect of the circadian rhythm. For instance, someone who is empirically evidencing a circadian rhythm disorder will (depending on the precise disorder - take Delayed Sleep Phase) sometimes have too much of a certain stage of sleep (herein, Delta) which extends the normal sleep architecture from a 1.5 hour process to a 2.5 hour process (and again, remember here, the secret to wakign up rejuvenated is completion of the sleep architecure 3-5 times per night,. depending on the individual) or longer (hence the need for lengthier periods dedicated to sleep). This again would be someone who has a circadian rhythm disorder, the ability to obtain a consolidated sleep architecture should manifest at any point in the day and is largely in response to (sure environmental as well) cognitive control. Said in other words, if you initiate sleep, you should be able to complete an entire cycle (with REM at the end) before you arouse from sleep (naturally) and should (in many cases) remember the dream you just aroused from. This is why it's so foreign (and quite counter productive) to wake up to an alarm clock and can, in fact, undo some of the hard work the council of sleep just finished performing.

I am not certain I can assist you with feline obedience training, but I think I dig your cat-hat <--teehee, I also dig this.

The issue behind such a terribly (possibly abusive, depending on where your mind may take you in your alone time) limiting recommendation has to do with the moderation of the circadian rhythm as acted upon by the cognitive brain. To allow a sleep association object of any sort is, in essence, liken to the removal of the ability to perform the task in a most natural state, the right state, a state that is not dependent upon external factors. I still have some research to complete, but it is my belief that addictive personalities (and many other issues) are initially subconsciously trained by the cognitive brain as soon as infancy in proportion to the attempts our parents took when affording us the luxury of sleep. Short summation: sleep association objects greatly increase the sleep onset latency and (long-term) keep us from hearing (or largely contribute to) our true communication with ourselves (<--observation-based)

Stimulants and depressants (the groups of socially accepted approaches to getting high listed above) certainly have an adverse impact on sleep; the two categories differentiate significantly re: sleep impacts.

I'm glad it was beneficial in some manner, if only to conclude there are professionals who dedicate their studies to the precise issue you are experiencing, but their time is generally expensive. Mine generally is as well, but we all struggle with the same "diagnosis" -> INTP, so I guess I got your backs or something trite and cliche

 

[CrayCrayPoTayTay]

My apparent natural sleep cycle seems to be 8-12 hours sleep followed by 14-20 awake; just enough to wake up ~2-3 hours later the next day/night. Energetically, pretty much the same rhythm begins with each wake up. I can't do anything for the first 2-3 hours of the day or so (unless I'm fishing, then I can drive like a zombie. Though even in zombie mode my thoughts are racing, I just can't keep track) and then I go through 3-4 cycles of "get shit done" and "sit on ass" before sleeping again. No coffee/alcohol or medications of any kind for a long time. Brief forays with caffeine in high & low doses, THC, THC-A, nutmeg, psilocybin, mood stabilizers, and a few others, but all use is impulsive, infrequent, and seems to be on an axis independent of said apparent natural sleep cycle.

For the most part this pattern emerged junior year of high school (no substances except the odd SSRI mom slipped in the household's food/beverages, which I didn't find out about until I was 24. "I thought we could all use some"), though I never went to bed on time as a kid. I personally blame legos and the paranormal.

Psych diagnoses (manifest age 23-24, ~2 years ago) range from PTSD to schizoaffective, with variations of bipolar inbetween. Commonality seems to be something chronically askew with muh HPA axis and cortisol levels.

*EDIT: Oh, and 3-4 godly orgasmic episodes of sleep paralysis within those past 2 years, much more vivid dreams & more frequent dreams, increased frequency of nocturnal emission, and auditory, mild visual, and olfactory hallucinations while simultaneously under stress and isolated, coupled with cognitive breakdowns when encountering excessive stimulation. Caffeine was a component of this.

Also, I began sleeping on the floor ~3 years ago as well (bare wood between two blankets, baby ). Took about a week to get used to it, doesn't really bother me that much, imho.

Hit me.

Oh my Doctor, how naturally unnatural

One of the most fascinating things about the sleep architecture is actually seeing the sleep architecture (which is probably a good approach for you, through a diagnostic testing facility). The number of potential sleep disorders indicated in this message are quite numerous (though not incredibly uncommon), but lets step past labels for a moment (as it would appear you have already experienced enough labelology).

What is your personality type I wonder? I assume for most INTPs (which, for purposes of moving forward is inclusive of you) would have a very difficult time adjusting to some level of decreased cerebral capacities, especially in the morning when many of us are probably experiencing our usual "oh right, I'm back here, as me, in this place" (though that is a broad over-generalization) which is frequently supplanted (in lieu of depression, which is key) with a tempered approach to our current cerebral workload (or in a wayward INTPs instance, obsession). If there is anything inhibiting that process, especially for an INTP, a significant unrest begins to develop and quickly grow until more dangerous manifestations (which you seem to indicate experience with). I'm not a great counselor for bipolar disorders, but I am confident it stems from the chemical form of depression (which directly stems from sleeping disorders) and can't imagine why you have not had recommended to you (by a doctor somewhere) to pursuit a sleep study. *Sigh* this is my nightmare (and yours too).

Please advise your PCP that you may benefit from a polysomnographic recording of some sort, possibly to be followed by an MSLT (dependent on the Policies of the Sleep Disorder's Center you are referred).

Here's the why regarding the above response: many of the items you indicate in your response have to be corroborated in some manner (and certainly will, but require data) before I am willing to delve into the depths of one of my favorite subjects of research in my field. If you get a sleep study, have it interpreted by a Diplomate of the American Board of Sleep Medicine, and come back with a diagnosis of a significant sleep disorder I am willing to expound deeper into the depths of what I believe you are describing here. I know this response is relatively vague, but given the above information, if you report this to a doctor that is experienced with sleep disorders and they do not order a sleep study for you I would be mildly surprised.

 

[CrayCrayPoTayTay]

Do you have an opinion about alternative sleep cycles, Craycray? Like 20 minute nap every 4 hours or stuff like that

Hi Minuend. I would like to call you Dough, cause it tickles me inside when I do, but that's a pretty dick-move and assumes ownership (at least, that's what the SJ world would have us believe). Anyway Dough, let's do this:

This is a fun question indeed. Here's a blanket statement that will quickly be refuted by any true INTP: "'Alternative' sleep cycles are clearly listed in multiple books, most of which describe the many existent disorders of sleep". For instance, there is a natural circadian rhythm that exists where, as a product of almost every single day, a person will require a siesta (nap) in the afternoon to maintain cognitive wakefulness (not a significant amount of the population - impossible to qualify such a statement though due to the rampant undiagnosed sleep disorders). The only way to call something a disorder is to compare it to established normatives, but wouldn't it be fascinating if certain different expected sleep cycles became the normatives based off Keirsey TS-II? i.e. If you're an ISTJ you will likely be awake, or need to be, by 6am so as to get started doing all that super duper rote task completion stuff you enjoy (**SJ temperament is by far the most fascinating to me, but we are in luck, they're the majority) and if you're an INTP, we will just schedule your availability now: Thursday. At about 11:45. That's when I am available to work. Probably.... Shortly. To get more directly at what I think you're asking, there is no cheat code for sleep. I do not currently know the correct approach to haxor your way out of needing an elevated amount of Total Sleep Time (if indeed this is a problem for you) but excitedly plan to research ways to obtain more comprehensive sleep cycles in a shorter period of time - and I've got JUST the way to do it! But blah blah, back to the main topic. Wow this paragraph is kind of all over, take from it what's useful or whatever, I am low of caffeine (which I personally use to treat my own ADD/ADHD).

Regarding naps, the longer you go into a nap, and the deeper into your sleep architecture you venture, the higher the requirement of fruition to feel positive results. If you intend to nap, keep it relatively short (knowing this is a short-term solution) and certainly try to avoid interruptions of your REM cycle (which is like the period' on the end of the sleep sentence, best to avoid run-ons in a manner more consistent with someone who is not me :P).

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Spoiler

I am confident it stems from the chemical form of depression (which directly stems from sleeping disorders) and can't imagine why you have not had recommended to you (by a doctor somewhere) to pursuit a sleep study. *Sigh* this is my nightmare (and yours too).

Please advise your PCP that you may benefit from a polysomnographic recording of some sort, possibly to be followed by an MSLT (dependent on the Policies of the Sleep Disorder's Center you are referred).

Here's the why regarding the above response: many of the items you indicate in your response have to be corroborated in some manner (and certainly will, but require data) before I am willing to delve into the depths of one of my favorite subjects of research in my field. If you get a sleep study, have it interpreted by a Diplomate of the American Board of Sleep Medicine, and come back with a diagnosis of a significant sleep disorder I am willing to expound deeper into the depths of what I believe you are describing here. I know this response is relatively vague, but given the above information, if you report this to a doctor that is experienced with sleep disorders and they do not order a sleep study for you I would be mildly surprised.

Personality type ( ) Ne-dom is probably the best description you're going to get. I identify with Fi & Te. Auburn dubbed me ISTJ, TimeAsylums dubbed me PersonalityJesus reincarnate, and I'm biased towards a self identity of xNFP.

I haven't seen a normal doctor or dentist in... 9 years. Significant unrest is spot on, but I'm also... happy (shit could be burning down around me and I'd feel normal and would probably laugh), and my mind's influx is full speed regardless of mood, it's the outflux that stalls.

*googles sleep study costs without insurance* Welp, that ain't happenin' for a while. *wonders if he can just buy the testing equipment, do it himself, and sell it afterward* Seems like home studies are good re: p-values. *contemplates becoming an unlicensed holistic practitioner who performs basic sleep studies along with giving out bad legal advice, worse relationship advice, palm readings, marriages, and interactive chaos divinations*

I have to wait for a few more people with bad mortgages to either die or go to jail before I get the $$$. Can we speculate in the meantime? What do you believe I'm describing? (Brain cancer wouldn't bother me, FYI).

 

[CrayCrayPoTayTay]

Personality type ( ) Ne-dom is probably the best description you're going to get. I identify with Fi & Te. Auburn dubbed me ISTJ, TimeAsylums dubbed me PersonalityJesus reincarnate, and I'm biased towards a self identity of xNFP.

I haven't seen a normal doctor or dentist in... 9 years. Significant unrest is spot on, but I'm also... happy (shit could be burning down around me and I'd feel normal and would probably laugh), and my mind's influx is full speed regardless of mood, it's the outflux that stalls.

*googles sleep study costs without insurance* Welp, that ain't happenin' for a while. *wonders if he can just buy the testing equipment, do it himself, and sell it afterward* Seems like home studies are good re: p-values. *contemplates becoming an unlicensed holistic practitioner who performs basic sleep studies along with giving out bad legal advice, worse relationship advice, palm readings, and interactive chaos divinations*

I have to wait for a few more people with bad mortgages to either die or go to jail before I get the $$$. Can we speculate in the meantime? What do you believe I'm describing? (Brain cancer wouldn't bother me, FYI).

Unfortunately a home sleep test would not indicate or rule out your sleep disorder unless your primary complaint is snoring and excessive daytime somnolence. Home sleep tests are primarily used for the diagnosis of sleep-related breathing disorders. While they are certainly expensive, it could prove to be the best money you spend.

Sure we can speculate further, but that incurs my hourly rate

PS - I like that you haven't seen a normal doctor in quite a while, ha! Meh, what is normal anyway

 

[CrayCrayPoTayTay]

This looks like a very interesting thread in which there is a chance to learn something and undersand the issues connected with sleep.

It is accurate to say that my sleep is inefficient, given how I can sleep from 5-10 hours and not feeling rested. Usually I sleep for 6 to 7 hours, which is forced by the early hours I have to get up. I do not feel tired in the evenings and nights, but the schedule imposes that I go to sleep early. It takes some 5-20 minutes to fall asleep depending on the music I listen to and temperature in the room. Currently the nights are so hot that I cannot fall asleep for an hour. Also to note, I tried sleeping for as long as 12 hours or 4/8/4/8 patterns, 4 hours of sleep 8 hours of activity, which werent less effective in terms of rest compared to a single period of sleep, still little effectiveness.

It is similar to what some of you have noticed, that the necessity to wake at 6 am cuts my sleep time as I prefer to remain active during the night. I also have the recurring tiredness and moments of sleepiness during the afternoons when without physical activity or any work to focus on makes me fall asleep during the lectures and sometimes other classes. Unless I rest my head I am immediately woken up by the reaction to falling.

When tired I noticed some narcoleptic traits in that I can fall asleep both sitting and standing, without losing my position generally. Another thing is that during these moments I skip to the REM phase and remember dreams, even if something woke me up after a few minutes. I don't skip to the rem phase however when going to sleep in my bed, unless I fall asleep again in the morning, then the same thing may occur. Generally this happens to me when there is nothing for me to focus on, or I feel disinterest. I had two instances of this happening while I was driving a car, but admittedly, these were the times I got very little sleep and was forced to drive somewhere.

After waking up, I am almost unconscious (lowered ability to make decisions and focus) which lasts up to an hour, then I experience a general tiredness for up to three hours. If occupied, my activity and alertness increases from the late morning towards the afternoon, then lowers, later increases sharply from late afternoon and remains high until early morning hours around 3 to 4 am.

I do not rely on any substances or drugs, aside from the occasional pills as medicine (see nimesulide for headaches). At times I drink a strong tea, weekly or so.
I was diagnosed with some depressive states in the past and there were periods where I would sleep for the whole day, feeling tired every time I woke up, also during that time I didn't have a stable sleeping cycle and slept mostly during the day, while being active for the whole night, the reverse of the day/night standard.
I am not attending any therapy for this and I experience the depressive state regularly for about two months during the winter.

The above mentioned patterns began in my late teens 18 and continue to this day, 20.
I am of normal weight, low physical activity, most of the time I use and work with text and listen to music, also I have some neurological health problems including notably the migraines with auras and nausea. Sleep is the best help for headaches as in most cases the drugs are ineffective. After I wake up the pain is gone. In some cases it is impossible to fall asleep because of the headache.

I am interesting in what would you derive from this, if there is anything relevant or supporting some cases in what was provided.

Blarraun,

For generalized headaches I will be of little assistance and would recommend consulting a neurologist. If you headaches occur in the morning, on both sides, and usually subside within a relatively short time span there is suspect of a pathological breathing disorder (but it doesn't seem like this is what you are describing).

A great way to quickly gage your sleepiness is through the use of an Epworth Sleepiness Scale (a nice little antiquated screening tool) which will rank from 0-24 your overall level of daily sleepiness. Anything higher than a 10 is clinically significant. One of the most fascinating negative impacts I have observed on alertness revolve around interruption of the REM cycle (which usually occurs when one awakens to an alarm clock) hence my suggestions previously of attempting to sleep without an alarm clock (as much as possible). A sleep hygiene reminder: do not have a clock visible to you wherever you have chosen to sleep, if you have not initiated sleep within approximately 15 minutes you should relocate from your environment dedicated to sleep and make another attempt after a short break, temperatures from 68-70 degrees are optimal for sleep consolidation. If you find it particularly difficult to "quiet your mind" prior to sleep onset, you can try taking a warm-hot shower 30 minutes to an hour before bed (the change in body temperature that occurs after a shower, when close to bedtime, can assist with overall sleep comfort since the core body temperature drops a couple of degrees prior to sleep onset).

Physical activity is paramount to quality sleep as well, but overall I am hearing a sleep quantity/quality that may benefit from a scheduled management. Sleep should be as thoughtfully approached as humanly possible, imo. If you would like more information please feel free to PM me.

 

[Minuend]

Hi Minuend. I would like to call you Dough, cause it tickles me inside when I do, but that's a pretty dick-move and assumes ownership (at least, that's what the SJ world would have us believe).

Is this dough thing based on an American expression (if you are American)? I don't get eet ;_;
Americans have a lot of weird sayings that don't make sense.

Thanks for the input on sleep cycles.

When I skimmed some info on them a while back, it seemed to be undecided whether it could potentially negative/ harmful neurologically. I don't know that much about the science of sleep in general. I have read some bits here and there about the repairing effect.

I don't have a need for a alternative cycle per se, as I waste my days doing nothing anyway. But if I should someday decide to do something constructive about my life, it could be interesting to try. And if an alternative cycle should at one point be proven superior, then I might change to it just because of that.

 

[CrayCrayPoTayTay]

Hahaha Dough, it was a terrible inside joke I created instantly with myself. A "Minimized Innuendo, or, Minuend-Dough", where I followed statement with an innuendo, then minimized it. Unless, of course, my interpretation of innuendo is absolutely incorrect (which would not be the first time), no matter, the fun I had with it was real. Pro status.

The negative impacts from a frequently interrupted sleep architecture are quite vast, so it makes sense to me that associating a negative/harmful neurological impact with the aforementioned sleep cycles is a valid hypothesis. When compared against research you would find a frequently interrupted sleep cycle is akin to stroke, depression, high blood pressure, heart problems, memory problems, focus issues, general death, specific death, anything terrible whatsoever. But then again, I am insanely biased since I have been obsessed with Sleep for quite a while

Now where did I leave my REM goggles.

 

[deadpixel]

Alright INTPs, I have been studying sleep medicine for the past (approximately) 11 years and have read some interesting stuff relating to sleep on this forum. I would like to make myself available to (as concisely as my current knowledge and research can afford) answer any questions about difficulty's initiating/maintaining sleep, insomnia, Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (particularly CBT-I for Insomnia) and general sleep hygiene and habit related questions. Please be aware that I am not a medical doctor and any information you receive from me is only meant to be informative, not diagnostic. The standard required parameter's for a patient seen in my facility include the utilization of Polysomnographic Recordings (which include Electroencephalography, Electrocardiography, Electromyography and multiple others) which then have a Preliminary and Interpretation report attached previous to any diagnosis of one of the approximately 88 disorders of sleep. Naturally, any information obtained in the following posts (including ones where I may use such verbiage as "that sounds like a classic case of") are not comprehensive when absent the required additional diagnostic documentation.

I will do my best to respond to the posts as timely as possible during my bi to tri-weekly logins.

That all being said, I will kick this off with a response to Polaris as long as she doesn't mind?:



One of the most common issues with sleep disorders is identifying the onset. Some people are more biologically inclined to sleep disorders (i.e. enlarged tonsils, sizable tongue, large neck circumference, high muscle mass etc) which makes the identification of said possible disorder's genesis increasingly difficult. If one was to perform a SWOT analysis of an Independent Diagnostic Testing Facility's Opportunities (such as competitors), it would be quickly indicated after much research that caffeine consumption is one of the primary approaches a person will pursuit when compensating for excessive daytime somnolence. I liken this approach to the application of a Band-Aid on the p3n!$ (<---totes a scientific term) for a broken arm. It's not gonna do a whole heap of benefit for the broken arm but it may certainly pacify the attention paid to the pain. So investigating the Opportunities of a Sleep Lab would include the "patient demographic" of those who are dedicated to selling Band-Aids: your local coffee company (amongst many others).

A feeling of inadequate quality or quantity of sleep will usually drive people to use their cognitive functioning brain to correct the problematic experiences (i.e. tiredness, sexual dysfunction, stroke, hypertension, headaches, anxiety, nervousness, depression, stroke, Afib, diabetes II and OH, so many others) that may indeed be a result of the sleeping brain.

Hey I have a couple of questions regarding sleep paralysis. The first time I ever experienced it I was probably about 14, it happened a few times throughout my teen years also. In the past couple of years(27 years old now) its a very regular thing that I've come to accept is just going to happen from time to time, it used to be a terrifying experience that feels like demonic possession or something evil. I've discovered that as long as I dont try to fall asleep lying on my back it NEVER happens. But lateley, EVERYTIME I try to fall asleep on my back it happens, so basically I can evade it so long as I dont try to sleep on my back. I dont have a problem sleeping on my sides and on my stomach, the problem is that after a few hours of this im tempted to try to switch positions to lay on my back, in which case the sleep paralysis takes effect again. Any suggestions on that?

 

[CrayCrayPoTayTay]

Hi Cooper, I like the comment below your statement.

As to the Supine sleep associated with (possible) cataplexy, that's interesting to have associated with a specific sleeping position.

Cataplexy is normally associated with REM sleep (which is where a normal level of muscle atonia - or cognitively described: paralysis - occurs) which occurs at the end of the sleep cycle. Experiencing hallucinations associated with the onset of sleep (or even cataplexy) are indicated as hypnogogic (fun to research). Hope this helps with your experience, that sounds frightening!

 

[Minuend]

Do you think there are cases where occasional reduced sleep could be beneficial if you have a neurological disorder or issue?

I'm not entirely sure of the boundaries of "frequently interrupted sleep". But if you don't get enough sleep, there tends to be a reason like depression, anxiety, illness etc.
Wouldn't it be difficult to distinguish what's caused by sleep deprivation and what's caused by the causes of sleep deprivation?

There could be studies where healthy individuals are forcefully awakened, but as a longterm study that could serve as a risk for the problems you listed are a bit more tricky. I guess you could to a degree apply the mechanisms of short term interrupted sleep in healthy individuals and correlate said mechanisms with factors known to correlate with some of the problems you mentioned. But it seems to be possibly shaky grounds to make a final verdict.

Though, if we are talking weeks and months of sleep deprivation, it does seem to intuitively make sense that it is at least not beneficial for health.

Anyways, I guess I'm thinking more short term; a few days or a week. For instance if you usually sleep 9 hours every night, you reduce that with 4-5 hours.

I have constant brain fog and this week I've been sleeping about 3-5 hours every day and I wake up without an alarm and feel awake. My brain fog has been better this week than it has been for a few weeks. Of course, this might be entirely coincidental, but it made me ponder such a possibility in general, also with people who have more severe neurological conditions.

 

[CrayCrayPoTayTay]

Hey again Dough,

Frequently interrupted sleep would therein be defined as frequent, and intrusive. I suppose if we were to place a specific quantifiable label to the symbol "frequent" we could call it once every 10 minutes (which, according to the overall calculations of how many times indicates a different diagnosis on the scale of mild to severe, is overall barely within the mild category, since that would indicate an Arousal Index (AI) of 6/hr <- how to medical quantify clinical significance) which would barely fringe upon being of clinical significance - unfortunately, research shows the overall prognosis would still be incredibly unfavorable with an index so "low".

Here's the other issue: you have absolutely, absolutely no idea how many times you are waking up during the night. Instead of explaining the extensive mechanisms involved, I will educate in this manner: The standard response to the question "how many times do you remember waking up last night?" which is on the post-sleep questionnaire form a patient must fill out after their sleep study, is, "once or twice" - usually the amount of times they had to use the restroom, since there is a stronger cognitive association to this stage of Wakefulness. You know what the average Arousals Index (times the brain activity goes from a stage of sleep, to the same Alpha pattern indicated when Awake with eyes closed) really is? 15/hour. For an 8-hours-a-night sleeper, that's 120 times! Yet there exists a connection in the form of memory, to only 2 events! It's fascinating!!!

 

[Teffnology]

So I have an interesting one that got partially answered but not sure if OP is still active so as to devulge the rest.

@CrayCrayPoTayTay if you are still around holla at me.