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Shame on Whom?

BigApplePi

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I miss Da Blob. He was a friend of mine and nearer to my age than most of you whippersnappers. You (members and moderators) banned him because you couldn't handle it. Shame on you both. What he did never bothered me. It bothered you. You forget, right or wrong, he was stimulating.

Or shame on me for making this thread?
 

Hawkeye

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Either and or both?
 

BigApplePi

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P.S. I made this -post- thread for the record of my position, not to start a controversy. I realize it's more or less too late. I'm thinking of the future.
 

Polaris

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Bring Blob back. He never bothered me either.

Can we have a petition?
 

Puffy

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Have you asked if he wants to come back, Pi? He has been banned a few times now, would be understandable if he didn't want to.

I have his Facebook address, I'm sure he wouldn't mind me pming you it, if you wanted to keep in touch.

I had nothing against him either, I'd be happy if he came back, but I can also understand that it's a difficult scenario with a long history. It's pretty borderline really. :phear:
 

Duxwing

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I miss Da Blob. He was a friend of mine and nearer to my age than most of you whippersnappers. You (members and moderators) banned him because you couldn't handle it. Shame on you both. What he did never bothered me. It bothered you. You forget, right or wrong, he was stimulating.

Or shame on me for making this thread?

He openly declared that he wanted to convert us to his views, logic or no logic. Neither I or anyone else on here came here to be converted by a self-admitted subjectivist lunatic, and we asked him to stop. He didn't stop. So we banned him. Good riddance to bad rubbish!

-Duxwing
 

BigApplePi

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Good riddance to bad rubbish!
-Duxwing
Now yer talkin'. He never tried to convert me and I happen to be able to contact him anytime. I just haven't gotten around to it.

There is Da Blob and there are the non-Da Blob's. You, Duxwing, are a member of the non-Da Blob's. My efforts would be to convert you, not to bring back Da Blog to hostile territory.
 

BigApplePi

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Bring Blob back. He never bothered me either.

Can we have a petition?
No petition. This is not a democrazy. I want his detractors to beg him to come back.
 

Duxwing

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Now yer talkin'. He never tried to convert me and I happen to be able to contact him anytime. I just haven't gotten around to it.

There is Da Blob and there are the non-Da Blob's. You, Duxwing, are a member of the non-Da Blob's. My efforts would be to convert you, not to bring back Da Blog to hostile territory.

You want me to be like him?

-Duxwing
 

BigApplePi

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Nezumi

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Huh? You are already like him. Historically honored members of this forum with related temperaments.

I'm not taking any sides as I didn't know him. But this point made me lol.
 

Absurdity

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You are already like him.

34833322.jpg

He does have a point. Whenever you get into a nitpicky debate with someone I usually lose interest in the thread. Same thing would happen when Blob would show up somewhere.
 

Duxwing

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34833322.jpg

He does have a point. Whenever you get into a nitpicky debate with someone I usually lose interest in the thread. Same thing would happen when Blob would show up somewhere.

:o

-Duxwing
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
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Da Blob had a nasty habit of derailing threads. Unfortunately, this is not the sort of behaviour one can easily ignore, since he would pull the people around him into derailing it to.

If he could be convinced to keep his pet topics in threads designed for them I would be strongly in favour of bringing him back, but I assume that this is not the case given the number of warnings and bans he has received in the past. Until then, I'm fairly indifferent.
 

BigApplePi

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Da Blob had a nasty habit of derailing threads. Unfortunately, this is not the sort of behaviour one can easily ignore, since he would pull the people around him into derailing it to.

If he could be convinced to keep his pet topics in threads designed for them I would be strongly in favour of bringing him back, but I assume that this is not the case given the number of warnings and bans he has received in the past. Until then, I'm fairly indifferent.
I like this point. It comes closer to what I was after. When a thread is derailed, who is to blame? The derailer or the gullible? Do we blame the derailer or is some point being made that is so powerful that it feeds into a common weakness we have we can't ignore? Isn't this an argument that the shame lies within us?

Must we ban a "born again Christian" or one who pushes Pod'lair every chance they get just because we can't handle it? I think the Pod'lair problem was solved by the moderators by allowing only one thread on the topic ... I forget.

People push their ideas with some force. Some will do it timidly and apologetically; some boldly with arrogance. How are we to deal with this? Perhaps we don't like someone because we don't share their interests and they impose on us. This forum should be stronger than any individual's self-interest. Yet everyone is entitled to their interest I suppose unless they are evil and destructive. As long as they are alive, everyone's self-interest should have respect. We should learn how to deal with it lest we "toss the baby with the bathwater." It may be that we discover much to our chagrin, that we turn out to be the baby.
 

Chad

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He openly declared that he wanted to convert us to his views, logic or no logic. Neither I or anyone else on here came here to be converted by a self-admitted subjectivist lunatic, and we asked him to stop. He didn't stop. So we banned him. Good riddance to bad rubbish!

-Duxwing

You are openly trying to convert people to atheism should we ban you too?

I am not for pushing people one way or the other. I am not against banning Da Bob however, if this is your reason you should be banned too. Just say what good for the gander should be good for the goose.
 

Fukyo

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I think we pretty much said everything we have to say about this in the previous two threads, as well as in private. We don't intend to unban him.
 

TheScornedReflex

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Not even for a sweet roll?
 

BigApplePi

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I think we pretty much said everything we have to say about this in the previous two threads, as well as in private. We don't intend to unban him.
Hi Fukyo. My intention for this thread is not to undo the past. Da Blob was judged to have created an unfavorable atmosphere ... if you will. None of us were able to fix it at the time. I just let down a friend. That's me and to hell with me. I'm thinking of the forum.

Duxwing was mentioned with an argument ... whatever. If Duxwing were to be seen as unfavorable somehow by some and not by others, I would prefer to see an open discussion BEFORE a push for ostracism. I would like to see his personal defense and see him defended. I will volunteer to be anyone's lawyer in this situation ... unless it is I who is in the situation ... in which case I will try to hide my shame.:D Anyone in this situation I would like to see fully state their case all with Q&A. Do they wish to continue what is objectionable to many? Do others find this objectionability not objectionable? Would the accused when faced with ostracism decide to modify his behavior?

Just thinking out loud: (Sorry Fukyo but to me this is different.) If Da Blob were confronted with his behavior do you think he would say, "Go to hell all of you I will continue to do as I wish" or do you think he would say, "I do this and that and believe in it. Do you insist I stop pushing it and how would you suggest I proceed?"

Please disregard this thread if you guys think it wasteful. I guess I'm after what I think is missing even though I can't exactly put my finger on it.
 

Duxwing

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You are openly trying to convert people to atheism should we ban you too?

Perhaps I've been unclear. Arguing in favor of a given set of ideals because one's logic has led one to believe in them is no crime to me. Rather, I object to relentless proselytization, underhanded arguments, and the substation of private conviction for demonstrable reason. Da Blob was guilty of all these crimes, and I believe that I've said as much earlier. Nevertheless, I will below explain the reasoning that led me to being in favor of Da Blob's banishment more clearly.

One of Da Blob's main goals, if not his main goal, of posting on INTPf was to convert others to his point of view, he openly stated that he: wanted to proselytize rather than debate, didn't care if his beliefs were internally inconsistent or illogical, wouldn't accept any criticism of them, believed them just because he believed them, and was wiling to use any means necessary to convert us. Such means, to my knowledge, ultimately included emotional torquing, personal attacks, and ruthless derailment of every thread that he could sink his talons into. We tried reasoning with him, but he openly rejected reason. We tried temporarily banning him, but he only returned with a vengeance. And we tried bearing him, but it was like having an endless infomercial playing on the forum. So, with a heavy heart, we permanently banished him from the forum so that the rest of us could have peace. Da Blob was a broken record, and we took him off the player.

As for what I do, I am not an ideologue driven by blind faith, nor am I committed to spreading atheism simply because atheism is atheism. Most importantly, I am not an atheist: I am an agnostic about God in general due to the impossibility of disproving all possible Gods and atheistic about the Gods of which I know due to logical inconsistencies in the texts in which they are described. Next, I have arrived at my present philosophy through the most ruthless and exacting logic that I can muster, and I don't feel particularly attached to it, unlike Da Blob, who would not and perhaps could not be reasoned with, and who was completely and utterly attached to his faith.

Moreover, I do not seek to "convert" my opponent "to atheism" when I debate, I seek to compare his or her arguments to mine and correct any fallacies in either without regard to whether doing so changes my ultimate beliefs, and if my opponent demonstrates that I've made an error, as I inevitably will and do-- I'm only human-- I admit that I've erred, adjust my argument, and carry on with my new thesis. Da Blob, on the other hand, retreated into solipsism-- a fallacious defense in itself, mind you, for the errors were almost always found in material claims-- whenever we conclusively demonstrated an error in his ideas, and openly admitted to using underhanded tactics in his arguments.

In short, Da Blob didn't care about what he could demonstrate. He cared about what people believed, and would do anything to ensure that they believed what he wanted them to. That is, short of cruelty, perhaps the greatest crime that one can commit in the exchange of ideas. But I? I just care about what I can demonstrate, and if caring about such a thing means debating on one side of an issue or another, then just as well, for discourse can be thrilling.

QED: Seeing as Da Blob is guilty of these crimes, and I am not, my logic therefore does not lead to my banishment.

I am not for pushing people one way or the other. I am not against banning Da Bob however, if this is your reason you should be banned too. Just say what good for the gander should be good for the goose.

As I've demonstrated, arguing in favor of religion wasn't my only reason for favoring the banishment of Da Blob.

-Duxwing
 

Fukyo

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If Da Blob were confronted with his behavior do you think he would say, "Go to hell all of you I will continue to do as I wish" or do you think he would say, "I do this and that and believe in it. Do you insist I stop pushing it and how would you suggest I proceed?"

Da Blob was confronted for his behavior multiple times, making it sound otherwise is disingenuous.

http://www.intpforum.com/showpost.php?p=346952&postcount=3

I could probably find more examples than the most recent "go to hell", but it'd be a bother to dig through thousands of posts.
 

Hawkeye

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If you throw out all the spanners in the works, it only makes a place harmonious which is a posh word for boring.

Like-minded people conversations are going to be pretty bland because there is nothing controversial to wobble their brain-boxes so to speak.

Threads get derailed because the main topic is clearly not stimulating enough to focus a reader's interest. Thread derailment is inevitable to all topics and nobody is to blame (not to be confused with Nobody).


Da Blob is gone, but not forgotten. ^^
 

Absurdity

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I'm only playing by their rules for fun. Godel blows logic to bits.

-Duxwing

But it does play a significant role in ordering your perception of the world and informing your life decisions, does it not? Do you not draw some measure of comfort from the structure it imposes on the chaos, even if you know it is flawed and inconsistent?

Sounds like a religion to me...
 

BigApplePi

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Da Blob was confronted for his behavior multiple times, making it sound otherwise is disingenuous.

http://www.intpforum.com/showpost.php?p=346952&postcount=3
Current thoughts: I took a look at that thread again. I think Da Blob brought about a polarization. Every time I see a polarization, being a die hard "P", I can't stand it. I can't buy either side. I think to myself, "There must always be something wrong here. There can't be two extremes and have either correct. The truth MUST be somewhere in between."

So that's the way I see it. Religious die hards refuse to give up. That antagonizes those who don't care for the values of religion. I used to have a girlfriend who majored in comparative religion. She wasn't religious any more than I am. Yet she was interested enough to study it. I must be still influenced by her. Why must some people of religion take things so seriously that they annoy others so much they have to become so serious about atheism*? Geez. So much hatred.

See the film "Life of Pi." Now there's something to believe in.
_________________
*I shouldn't pick on atheism. Add: any other religious belief than one's own.
 

Words

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Agreed. At least Da blob was genuinely curious about philosophical topics that no other members were interested in...even if I thought they were all erroneous in a way and also influenced by his faith. I liked his explorations on subjectivity and values for instance.
 

Jennywocky

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I'll support Blob coming back...

... for one million billion dollars!!!

dr-evil.jpg


(we all have our price)


See the film "Life of Pi." Now there's something to believe in.

I'd rather watch "Life of Pi" any day, compared to seeing all the threads inundated with Blobbiness, tbh.

Pretty amazing movie in terms of visuals and creation of wonder.
 

Duxwing

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A religion based on luminescent wales?


P.S.
The ending of that movie was silly* compared to how the book handled it.


*much less ambiguous then it should have been.

I know that you wanted to say whales, but luminescent Wales seems just too funny.

"Qui e est in Walesiem, donna e est requiem!"
"And forth from the endless waters of time arose Wales, its shoreline aglow with resplendent alabaster, every fraction of its surface suffused with divine light!"
"Allah ackWales!"

-Duxwing
 

SpaceYeti

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You are openly trying to convert people to atheism should we ban you too?

Not addressed to me, but still;

It's much more about manner than goal. If I were to imagine an ideal future, everyone would be an atheist, because I consider it the most rational position to take. It being rational is key. I want people to come to the rational conclusion, which I think is atheism. If I discovered something else was more raional, I'd prefer that. For me, it's about being rational, properly applying logic. Da Blob is almost as bad at logic as Scorpionmover, and he didn't even seem to care. For me, and I'd imagine also for Dux, it's about trying to get people to see reason, not about our specific conclusions.
 

Duxwing

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Not addressed to me, but still;

It's much more about manner than goal. If I were to imagine an ideal future, everyone would be an atheist, because I consider it the most rational position to take. It being rational is key. I want people to come to the rational conclusion, which I think is atheism. If I discovered something else was more raional, I'd prefer that. For me, it's about being rational, properly applying logic. Da Blob is almost as bad at logic as Scorpionmover, and he didn't even seem to care. For me, and I'd imagine also for Dux, it's about trying to get people to see reason, not about our specific conclusions.

Precisely.

-Duxwing
 

Cognisant

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If anyone truly misses Da Blob here's a solution.

Go hang out with him.

Puffy has the Facebook address, if you want to talk to Da Blob there is absolutely no barrier preventing you from doing so, the only thing bringing him back here would achieve is annoying the people who took offence to his behaviour, and I ask you, is that what you're trying to achieve?
 

C.Hecker88

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I, for one, wouldn't mind Da Blob coming back.
Frankly, I would love him to return. I may not have seen most of his posts, but what I have seen of him shows that he was a constituent to the forum. He may have warped views at times, but they are necessary (I believe) for the forum to achieve full potential. I have seen many times in older threads where he contributed quite well.
 

Brontosaurie

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was he like oneliner:

"hey god exists, disprove that with logic i dare you"

or more like the tedious bible quote walkover kinda guy
 

BigApplePi

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If anyone truly misses Da Blob here's a solution.

Go hang out with him.

Puffy has the Facebook address, if you want to talk to Da Blob there is absolutely no barrier preventing you from doing so, the only thing bringing him back here would achieve is annoying the people who took offence to his behaviour, and I ask you, is that what you're trying to achieve?
The DaBlob I miss is the one on this forum. He has already befriended me on Facebook but I am not posting there as I don't like it.

No Cog I certainly don't want to annoy those who took offense to him. That would make things worse than they were before. This thread as I present it is neutral toward bringing him back. (Jenny has made an offer, but I have to save up as her price is somewhat high.)

I can understand why you might be annoyed. Perhaps I can address this whole issue if and when I get around to making a thread about the philosophy of religion.
 

Cognisant

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Actually I meant the purpose of bringing him back would be so that he could be annoying, implicitly by getting back to the behaviour he was banned for, which of course dosen't annoy everyone because not everyone disagreed with him.

My personal problem with him was that many of his arguments had been refuted time and time again, but he kept using them, he just trawled the forum for support and he knew exactly what he was doing, with him there was no discussion, no rational debate, and there was never going to be one, he said as much himself.

So it baffles me why you would want to bring him back ("neutral" my ass) UNLESS it's for the express purpose of allowing him to once again blanket the forum with his shamelessly sophistic proselytising shit. If YOU find him stimulating and YOU miss him then YOU can fuck off an talk to him, I'm not stopping you, there is nothing more for you to gain by having him here other than how his presence here would affect people OTHER THAN YOURSELF.

(rhetorical tone) Is there?

Believe it or not BAP I'm not an idiot, consider yourself lucky I'm not a mod either, I was the first to ban Da Blob because I knew what he was, I knew he wouldn't change, and despite a certain someone's intervention he dug his grave a second time and he was banned a second time. Now let me tell you BAP, I know the direction you're going with this and I know where it leads, I may not be a mod but I know they're not idiots either, so I'll ask you where do you think you're going with this?

I mean this isn't really about Da Blob is it? Lets talk about the philosophy of religion.
You probably don't like that the philosophy and faith boards are split, maybe because it puts the discussions on different levels, on one side the kiddies pool of spiritual drivel where everyone has to play nice and respect each other's beliefs. On the other side the adult table, the deep end, where the "play nice rules" explicitly don't apply, and so discussions of Christianity, the soul, God, prayer, and so forth are not prevented, but effectively marginalised.

Well there's no going back, the division of the boards merely illustrates a schism that was always there, there is no philosophy of religion just as there no religion of philosophy, sure a religion may have some philosophy within it, just as some degree of belief in one's assumptions is necessary for a philosopher. But there's a fundamental difference, a philosopher has questions, a priest has answers, Christianity is a prime example of how spirituality is shackled to ancient philosophies long since discredited and thus spirituality itself has become the domain of delusion.

So of course it's marginalised from serious philosophical discourse, why wouldn't it be? Would it not be absurd if at the LHC physicists had to endure the pestering of those who believe in the four ancient Greek elements or the metaphysical rituals of alchemy?

Da Blob refused to accept anything but his faith, he justifies himself in subjectivism to an extent that is arguably madness, and he isn't coming back, now you can fill the niche he left if you wish but I wouldn't recommend it.

Say I'm projecting or whatever, heck maybe I am, in any case I had a point to make and I've made it, you received it, that's all I wanted to achieve, dismiss my post if you so wish.
 

Puffy

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^ Ehh, splitting philosophy and spirituality & faith, just makes it easier to demarcate discussions and prevent one single subforum from being dominated by a certain kind of one (like the God/ Christianity threads.) I think we should avoid going down that 'philosophy = materialism' line, it would make an interesting thread to counter Pi's 'philosophy of religion' one perhaps. But if, as a forum, we divide the two on those grounds, its purely ideological, and perhaps alienating to those who don't take that view.
Meh, derailments. :kodama1:
 

BigApplePi

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Hey Cognisant. I absolutely do NOT dismiss your post. I take no value in listening to one side if the other side leans in the opposite direction. I'm interested in the opposition and so I will not dismiss your post. You don't feel neutral about this, do you? What does that say? What does that say about INTP's (or whatever) and their emotions? Anyway ...

Let's forget about that DB guy for the moment ... no wait. No need to bring him back. He's already here. I or anyone can still reply to him. I think Fukyo presented a post of his. Let me go look for it. Hold on ...


Originally Posted by Da Blob As for myself, I place little value in Philosophies other than my own and will not be posting much in the new subforum, if indeed, it is just not a snide and disingenuous means of discouraging open-minded discussion...
What the hell DaBlob? How do you think a statement like that is going to be taken? You don't recognize other's philosophies ... and you won't be posting on some subforum about it? Just who is close minded here? What makes you think others don't have a legitimate position that you can call them "snide and disingenuous"? I've never seen that ... or at least I've just been passing over your religious encounters. Let's take a look at your more complete post so I don't take your last statement too much out of context.

DaBlob:
As the principle antagonist, I would like to point out, that posting threads, without any opposing POVs simply results in boring, self-affirmation that those not in the self-affirmation club would not be interested in viewing.

Like the OP "wasn't Nietzsche the greatest human who ever lived?"
could generate a few confirming responses and that is about all.

The problem is from my point of view, is that a lot of anti-religious bigotry, is being paraded as science or philosophy when it is neither.

However, if the members want to have an "Atheists Only Club" perhaps it should be called that instead of the Philosophy subforum.

As for myself, I place little value in Philosophies other than my own and will not be posting much in the new subforum, if indeed, it is just not a snide and disingenuous means of discouraging open-minded discussion...
It seems to me you are saying atheists are promoting their view without any opposition and you are calling this, "anti-religious bigotry." I think I've noticed atheistic views but haven't addressed them or at least as you would like. I think something is missing. What is missing is the science they are talking about is legitimate but it is a different science than that you are addressing. That is why you guys are having a clash. Let's look at atheist science and your science so we can straighten this out. I have a science oriented background (which I don't believe you yourself have) in BOTH the hard sciences and the soft ones so I think I can help out here. Your last sentence I believe to be an expression of emotional frustration which can easily be misinterpreted and which seems polarizing ... not helpful. If I had been more aware of the polarizing effect of all this, I would have jumped in earlier. Sorry.

BTW Cog, this post is really for your viewing. I'm not contacting DB and it is up to him if he is interested in lurking.
 

Hawkeye

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I never saw what was so difficult in ignoring people one finds irritating.

Nobody is obligated to respond to another's post. By responding to someone you know to be a fool, surely you're only fooling yourself?
 

Duxwing

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I never saw what was so difficult in ignoring people one finds irritating.

Nobody is obligated to respond to another's post. By responding to someone you know to be a fool, surely you're only fooling yourself?

Must we suffers fools here, then, just as we do in life? I cannot imagine the purpose of this forum if illogic ruled the day.

-Duxwing
 

SpaceYeti

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Da Blob; Stupid stuff that makes the mods dislike me
Mods; ONE THOUSAND YEEEAAARS DUNGEON (even though you didn't do anything that broke the actual rules)!
Da Blob; :(
 

Absurdity

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Must we suffers fools here, then, just as we do in life? I cannot imagine the purpose of this forum if illogic ruled the day.

-Duxwing

To take a page out of Blobby's book:

I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little. That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting. Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also. For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise. (2 Cor 11:16-19)
http://m.bible.cc/2_corinthians/11-19.htm http://m.bible.cc/2_corinthians/11-20.htm


 

Duxwing

I've Overcome Existential Despair
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Da Blob; Stupid stuff that makes the mods dislike me
Mods; ONE THOUSAND YEEEAAARS DUNGEON (even though you didn't do anything that broke the actual rules)!
Da Blob; :(

He was a nuisance, thus breaking the last rule of the forum.

-Duxwing
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
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Da Blob; Stupid stuff that makes the mods dislike me
Mods; ONE THOUSAND YEEEAAARS DUNGEON (even though you didn't do anything that broke the actual rules)!
Da Blob; :(

This made me unequivocally happy
 

Kuu

>>Loading
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Da Blob; Stupid stuff that makes the mods dislike me
Mods; ONE THOUSAND YEEEAAARS DUNGEON (even though you didn't do anything that broke the actual rules)!
Da Blob; :(

I think ETERNAL DAMNAYTIONNN might be more appropriate. A thousand years isn't nearly enough...


Must we suffers fools here, then, just as we do in life? I cannot imagine the purpose of this forum if illogic ruled the day.

-Duxwing

Indeed. The problem is people disagree on what is defined as a fool, and by whom.
 

SpaceYeti

Prolific Member
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He was a nuisance, thus breaking the last rule of the forum.

-Duxwing

A subjective, and therefore unfair as it doesn't apply to everyone equally, judgment. That rule is essentially a "We don't like you, so we're kicking you out" pass-card. It's a bad rule. Unfair rules are still unfair even though they're rules.

I think ETERNAL DAMNAYTIONNN might be more appropriate. A thousand years isn't nearly enough...

I'm pretty sure Lemongrab never said that, though.
 

Cognisant

cackling in the trenches
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A subjective, and therefore unfair as it doesn't apply to everyone equally, judgment. That rule is essentially a "We don't like you, so we're kicking you out" pass-card. It's a bad rule. Unfair rules are still unfair even though they're rules.
Rule Zero.

Fair is what he/she who makes the rules says it is.
 
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