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Screening Out The Introverts

Da Blob

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Given that introversion is frowned upon almost everywhere in U.S. culture, the test might as well have asked, "Would you prefer to be cool, popular, and successful or weird, isolated, and a failure?" In the discussion that followed, a few students observed—with general agreement—that introversion was a kind of mental illness:slashnew:


https://chronicle.com/article/Screening-Out-the-Introverts/131520/

There are some interesting books recommended and some points worth discussing within this article...
 

Czech Yes or No

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Interesting enough but I would like to add that they took the traits ofevery introverted type and combomed them to make their "idea" of an introverted type more appealing.
 

EditorOne

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Blob, thank you for posting this, it includes several books I've just got to read.
 

Philosophyking87

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Cool. It's definitely the case that introverts likely have a much harder time coping with society's many demands than do extraverts.

I like how the author of that article says he "acts" in order to accomplish the demands of teaching, as I'm sure most introverted professors must learn to master the illusion of extraversion. I'm also interested by the class' reaction to the idea of introversion: that it's some kind of mental illness or mistake, as we seem naturally to be social animals.

With regard to this, I offer an interesting passage from a psychology textbook as to a plausible explanation of extraversion from a very renowned psychologist:

How can we account for the seemingly universality of the five-factor structure? Psychologist David Buss (1991, 1995a) has one intriguing explanation. Buss thinks we should look at the utility of these factors from an evolutionary perspective. He believes that the Big Five traits reflect the personality dimensions that are the most important in the "social landscape" to which humans have had to adapt. Being able to identify who has social power (extraversion), who is likely to share resources (agreeableness), and who is trustworthy (conscientiousness), enhances of likelihood of survival. -- Discovering Psychology (2nd Edition), by Hockenbury and Hockenbury

The big question is: why is extraversion so dominant? What does this mean of introversion? In terms of evolution, what might explain introversion? Is it an anomaly? Or, does it play some particular role/function?

Considering extraverts seem to find more happiness and success in society than do introverts, these questions area always at the back of my mind.

Very nice article.
 

MissQuote

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I'm not sure about the idea that extraverts are happier. More successful perhaps, but not necessarily happier.

Both of my friends are extraverts. (can I say "both of my friends" here without sounding like a weirdo for it? without having to give the whole explanation of how I know lots of people blah blah, but I am only close with those two, without the long explanation that I am okay with this?) and neither of them find coping with the turmoil of life any easier than I do-

-they just naturally deal with it all in a way that is considered more acceptable. Such as group counselling or support groups or talking and venting to their hoard of friends first off to get it off their chest- compared to introverted methods such as holing up in ones room and turning the phone off and processing everything then reaching out to a trusted person if all else fails- ways that are considered unhealthy by society (particularly if one is female).

But that said, it is just another example of society being geared towards the the valuing of extraversion.

Perhaps Introverts are meant to help spread and mix up genetics when groups become too closed. Evolution wise. Stir the gene pool. Solitary creatures that mingle with different groups when the need for interaction occurs then retreat again to wander.
 

Beholder

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I just came from a job interview, in the form there was a question: Do you prefer to work alone or in a group. I circled alone and was interrogated as if I was some kind of antisocial psychopath.
I fucking hate modern civilization.
 

Philosophyking87

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Yup... society tends to have certain "demands" that some of us just don't naturally meet. So we're basically forced to change who we are to fit the environment. In my case, it's the worst.

a) I'm not extroverted, so I don't like talking/presentations/group work
b) I'm not very friendly, so earning people's trust and respect is usually not very easy
c) I lack work ethic, so I'm usually not preferred as a team member or employee
d) I'm open-minded, creative, and unstructured, so I'm usually not preferred for routine jobs where you just have to turn your mind off and take things for granted, and "intellectual" jobs require expensive degrees and a lot of luck (as they are rather scarce)

In order to thrive, I'd have to act extraverted, act friendly, act structured and organized, and tolerate working conditions that aren't always mentally stimulating (but instead downright mind-numbing). I fucking hate the very idea of "acting friendly." It's not natural for me, and I'd instead prefer to look pessimistic, grumpy, and serious. It feels good to not always look so happy-go-lucky. But that's what society demands...

They might as well just say, "If you have any of these undesirable traits, then you aren't economically viable." Why beat around the bush?
 

MichiganJFrog

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In the discussion that followed, a few students observed—with general agreement—that introversion was a kind of mental illness

This line inspired me to check to see whether The People Who Run Things still consider introversion a clinical condition. The answer is yes.
 

Lot

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Some of the problems listed in this article seem more related to shyness then introversion. A boost in confidence is what allows one to be "sociable". I know several extroverts that suffer from shyness. But I guess introverts are more likely to not feel confident in these situations. It's like preforming on stage. It's nerve racking until you get it over with. The more you do it the easier it gets.

All that being said, I don't like leaving the house, or interacting with people very often. At least once a week I do a large social function, but other then that I usually stay at home.

This line inspired me to check to see whether The People Who Run Things still consider introversion a clinical condition. The answer is yes.
As for this. It wouldn't shock me. I hate the state of psychology and psychiatry. It's run by a bunch of drug peddlers and makers. Anything to make a buck. That's something I would like to change.
 

EyeSeeCold

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This line inspired me to check to see whether The People Who Run Things still consider introversion a clinical condition. The answer is yes.

I think I remember reading something about this(not sure if it was that or the DSM). If I recall correctly that's only a recent addition (and, consequently, notion).
 

Vidi

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This line inspired me to check to see whether The People Who Run Things still consider introversion a clinical condition. The answer is yes.

As for this. It wouldn't shock me. I hate the state of psychology and psychiatry. It's run by a bunch of drug peddlers and makers. Anything to make a buck. That's something I would like to change.

It schocked me..some, and I agree with the rest. Pseudo-conditions. Soon their number exceed total population number, but before this happens everyone will be tagged with their own unique psycological disorder...yayyy
 

MichiganJFrog

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I think I remember reading something about this(not sure if it was that or the DSM). If I recall correctly that's only a recent addition (and, consequently, notion).

This article says the ICD-9-CM designation has been on the books for decades. The APA apparently has had less success trying to brand us all as sickos by way of the DSM, and if you click on the relevant link in the article, you'll see they've backpedaled and changed their proposal from "introversion" as an illness to "detachment." I asked my therapist about this; he said he thinks detachment and withdrawal are perfectly normal if the situation is fucked up enough.

The "good" news is that it looks like the World Health Organization will be replacing "introverted personality disorder" with "schizoid" as of Oct. 1, 2013. I did a little surfing on the ICD-10-CM site to see what other personality disorders they're planning to roll out. There's one called "haltlose" and another one called "querulant." I think someone on the ICD board also makes up crossword puzzles and SAT vocabulary questions as a side gig.

This all reminds me of the story a few years back where some journalists wanted to see how hard they'd have to try to get admitted to a psychiatric hospital. What they ended up learning was that it's much easier to get in than to get out.
 

EyeSeeCold

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Yea it was the DSM I was talking about, "and the APA is now considering a proposal to include introversion in the next edition of its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM-5)".

If international organizations can accept and validate such proposals then it just goes to show the lack of exposure introverts have in society. It's really hard to believe that with modernization and all the cultural and social developments that have happened in the last two centuries that something like introversion could be classified among a list of disorders and diseases.
 

nanook

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formerly, if someone who is so introverted, that he can not get a job or romantic partner, therefore sought psychological support, then for the sake of billing, he would have to be diagnosed as schizoid, paranoid, depended, avoidant (being introverted personality disorders) or asperger's or social phobic (being a neurosis and something too light to describe total extroverted-dysfunctionality) all of which are possibly too inaccurate for this individuum- or, in the icd10 there is another personality disorder: "f.61.0" - "for all disorders that don't exactly fit the descriptions of disorders that are described". so it was always possible to be diagnosed as personality distorted, just because you are introverted or different in a weird way - and usually you are only diagnosed, if you seek help.

so now they have differentiated their book a little more. another picture added.

they are just being logical, within their own paradigm. if you don't like it (i don't) then you have to think larger and criticise the whole superficial paradigm, or you can try to argue with logic (differentiation on a given level of perception) as such (like hey its personality distorted to be so logical and thus ignorant about other levels of perception), something that seems unexpected on this message board (i wouldn't mind).


your intuitive approach of "but introversion is not a disorder, it's nature" doesn't register within their paradigm, because it's not a naturalistic paradigm that attempts to differentiate between the natural ideal and the broken - and you will find that within a pluralist paradigm such differentiation would always be deconstructed by some moron, because intelligence is not allowed in flatland, so the ICD/DSM paradigm is locked into a larger paradigm of society. it's just a bunch of pictures of descriptive traits (flatland), and if they can't get a distinctive picture in psychology (behavioral traits) they seek a picture in the brain instead (psychiatry, brain scan or something), whichever domain makes a distinction more obvious.

the irony is that pluralism considers a distinction between nature and disease to be too much of a judgement (it believes that there is no foundation for such judgements) and so it ends up being super judgemental (projecting it's shadow) and forms the judgement, that the natural (introversion) must be just as distorted as everything else (like extroverted personality disorders /jk) for the sake of equality. our intuition isn't affected by the limitations of flatland, our intuition can see that there is foundation for such a distinction between the natural and the disease, but we can't argue for it, can't proove it, with the rational flatland instruments of our flatland minds, so rationalists deconstruct our intelligence away.
 

scorpiomover

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Yea it was the DSM I was talking about, "and the APA is now considering a proposal to include introversion in the next edition of its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM-5)".

If international organizations can accept and validate such proposals then it just goes to show the lack of exposure introverts have in society. It's really hard to believe that with modernization and all the cultural and social developments that have happened in the last two centuries that something like introversion could be classified among a list of disorders and diseases.

Actually, it makes perfect sense.

It taught me quite a few interesting things, which I have combined with other information I picked up

In the past:

I was watching a series a while back, about the history of the home, through the centuries. In the Middle Ages, everyone lived in small villages of maybe a few hundred people each. When at work, people would make their own crafts, labouring solidly by themselves for many hours a day. So one was often working alone. Everyone would sit in the main room, where there was an open hearth. Cooking, relaxing, story-telling, almost everything would be with everyone crowded around the fire, all together. For entertainment, people would all sit together, watching one person tell a story very animatedly, or listening to a few people play music. It was like going to see a play at the theatre. Everyone felt part of the same event. Then at night, everyone in the house would sleep in the same bed, all together. In addition, there were regular village fairs, and large events, which everyone went to, and naturally encouraged people to mix with each other. Even in the 1950s, when people went to a dance, if a woman was asked to dance, by any man, it was considered impolite to refuse, unless she had previously promised the dance to another, and no man was allowed to hog a woman's attentions for the whole night. One would often take a bath wth others, so as to make the hot water stretch to as many as possible. So when one was at home, or at play, one's life was almost always sharing with others.

We used to live isolated from most people, severely limiting our possibilities for socialising. In general, when it made sense to be alone, we were alone, and when we were around others, we all shared our company with each other. We were very social.

We realised how limited we were in our posibilities for socialisng, and so we valued socialising, and took advantage of socialising, whenever and wherever it was reasonable to do so.

Nowadays:
harmfuff
Most of live in large cities, some of them numbering in the tens of millions. More people live in cities than ever before. we all work in the same office. But we are all in cubicles. We sit around, all together, but hardly talking to each other, and not even meeting each other's gaze. When people are home, they relax or are busy in whatever room of the house was most appropriate, with different people in different rooms of the same house. For entertainment, 20 years ago, we would all sit together watching TV, with everyone feeling like they were in their own little bubble, divorced from everyone else. Today, everyone has their own computer, and we are all sitting in the same room, but doing different things, and ignoring each other. Most of us have their own beds, and even their own rooms.In addition, people hardly ever have very large events, like neighbourhood street parties. At most modern events where dancing is present, people usually only dance with a few people of their choice. Often, many people don't have a dance for the whole night. Today, it would be unthinkable to share a bath at home, or a shower at home, with someone who one is not currently sexually intimate with.

We live our lives almost always in very close proximty to each other, such close enough proximity to others, that in the past, it would have been considered seriously anti-social, to not at greet each other, and exchange pleasantries to pass the time. So we have lots of possibilities for socialising. Yet, our activities are now arranged in such a way, that we are basically ignoring the people right who are right next to us. That is the height of anti-social behaviour.

We have arranged our lives in such ways, that there is much greater potential for socialising with others. However, that has enabled us to take socialising for granted, and we have allowed our activities to make us anti-social.

Our aim in the past centuries, has been to gain mastery over nature, to make life safe, happy and enjoyable for us, so that we could protect ourselves from harm, and to get everything we wanted, any time we wanted, in whatever way we wanted. However that was not always possible. So we would also try to adapt to things, and to live with nature. However, we treated the process of adapting to nature, as only a support to our desire to control nature. Whenever we found a way to control nature, we thought that it would no longer be useful to control ourselves. So Western progress has mostly been about learning how to force nature to do our bidding.

In the process, we have treated others as part of our environment. We could not directly try to control others, without others equally trying to control us. So instead, we have tried to control society, be outsourcing our dependency on society to tools and inanimate machines as much as possible, extraverting our needs onto others. We highly value emotionless sexual relationships. We value emotionally-sharing asexual friendships, as being the same as those acquaintances we met only a day ago, and hardly know, and so in the process devalue emotional sharing. We have effectively tried to impersonalise our dealings with people. In the process, we have re-defined intimacy, by the appearance of physical proximity, valuing sex most of all, and devalued intimate moments sharing our emotional self.

The result is that not physically being present at a social occasion, has been considered a lack of intimacy, while talking about our feelings and thoughts in great depth, is now often considered "over-sharing". Introverts prefer to share a lot of emotional intimacy with a few close friends. So we have effectively been moving away from the introverted perspective for quite a while.

Effectively, by extraverting our desires onto machines, to make them do them for us, we have devalued the benefits from getting closer to our introverted self, our inner selves.

In the process, this lack of understanding of our inner selves, has let our selves go haywire, causing mental illness. This symptom has also been extraverted, the lack of emotional intimacy being blamed on a lack of physical proximity, what we see, rather than on what it is, a lack of understanding of ourselves and others.

Introversion is not so much the problem. The problem is that we have moved away from introversion so much, that we consider extreme extroversion normal, and so even reasonable introversion is seen as aberrant behaviour.

Like so many who came before us, we have become the victims of our own success, revelling in our extremes, and deeming even the healthy balanced attitude to be dangerous.

R. D. Laing said that in an insane society, being sane seems insane to everyone else. This is as much true of extremes of extroversion, as anything else.

However, what if they conflict? Which one makes more sense to do?

If there is a tsunami coming, and everyone else is partying on the beach, then running away might be unpopular. But at least you're still alive. Sanity must generally rule the day.
 

MichiganJFrog

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If there is a tsunami coming, and everyone else is partying on the beach, then running away might be unpopular. But at least you're still alive.

Dude, I'd rather be dead and cool than be alive and be a totally bogus buzzkill. :confused:
 
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