Righty Tighty, Lefty Loosey

[Minuend]

Going deeper

 

[Grayman]

Going deeper

They teach people to drive with their hands under the steering wheel now, in the USA. So righty oooopssy. The reason is to keep the hands out of the way of the airbag if it deploys.

 

[Thurlor]

@ Minuend

My hand doesn't move laterally when I am tightening/loosening a screw or bolt. It twists.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

What if you drive with your knees?

And, obligatory:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PycZtfns_U

 

[pernoctator]

Perhaps you're having trouble realizing this because the arbitrary association between clockwise and "right" was so ingrained in your mind at age 5 by parents repeatedly demonstrating the motion while reciting a nonsense rhyme?

There is no obvious connection. And using a steering wheel is no different.

For nearly the tenth time in the thread, it doesn't refer to the screw.

You're describing a lateral motion. Neither the hand nor the screw moves laterally. I don't see how you perceive the motion of a hand for driving a screw as clearly "right" or "left". It is both at once.

What exactly are you basing it on? Where the index finger ends up? How are we supposed to know this? This is supposed to be without pre-existing knowledge, remember? And this falls apart easily, because not everyone starts with the same grip, especially when you introduce things like screwdrivers. And when using a wrench, the correct direction is any of right, left, up, or down, depending on where it is at any given time.

This would all be solved if we ditched this righty / lefty nonsense and just taught people what clockwise actually means. The easiest way to do so is using a clock. Seriously, it is not as "abstract" as you're saying. You can even construct a mnemonic for it if you like -- how about "timey tighty"?

 

[Hawkeye]

Perhaps you're having trouble realizing this because the arbitrary association between clockwise and "right" was so ingrained in your mind at age 5 by parents repeatedly demonstrating the motion while reciting a nonsense rhyme?

There is no obvious connection. And using a steering wheel is no different.




You're describing a lateral motion. Neither the hand nor the screw moves laterally. I don't see how you perceive the motion of a hand for driving a screw as clearly "right" or "left". It is both at once.

What exactly are you basing it on? Where the index finger ends up? How are we supposed to know this? This is supposed to be without pre-existing knowledge, remember? And this falls apart easily, because not everyone starts with the same grip, especially when you introduce things like screwdrivers. And when using a wrench, the correct direction is any of right, left, up, or down, depending on where it is at any given time.

This would all be solved if we ditched this righty / lefty nonsense and just taught people what clockwise actually means. The easiest way to do so is using a clock. Seriously, it is not as "abstract" as you're saying. You can even construct a mnemonic for it if you like -- how about "timey tighty"?

Had there have been an issue with this very simple mnemonic, I would agree with you.

For example, the mnemonic i before e, except after c isn't a very good mnemonic because there are more words that contradict the rule than actually follow it.

Alas, this is not the case and it is more efficient to use righty tighty, lefty loosey, than it is to say clockwise tightens and anti-clockwise loosens.

"Timey" is far more abstract than "righty" and "lefty". Ask a kid what they think "righty and "lefty" mean and I bet you will receive far less confusion than when asking them to explain "timey"

Kids know what clockwise and anti-clockwise mean... That's not the point of a mnemonic. The whole purpose of a mnemonic is to build an easy to remember phrase that helps you remember more important concepts.

For example, If I ask a kid to tighten a screw, using the "righty tighty, lefty loosey" mnemonic will inform them to turn/rotate it to the right.

If anyone is implying that the kid will simply grab the screw and literally drag it to the right, then they are moronic...

 

[Thurlor]

@ Hawkeye

I think you are missing the point.

If I ask a kid to tighten a screw, using the "righty tighty, lefty loosey" mnemonic will inform them to turn/rotate it to the right

That only works if your point of reference on the screw (or the hand) is at the 'top' edge. Otherwise it could well rotating to the top, bottom or left.

It is entirely relatively to the reference point you are using and the mnemonic doesn't specify that it should be the top.

Even without explicitly referring to clocks there is still the assumption that 12 o'clock (the 'top') is the starting point.

 

[pernoctator]

For example, If I ask a kid to tighten a screw, using the "righty tighty, lefty loosey" mnemonic will inform them to turn/rotate it to the right.

If anyone is implying that the kid will simply grab the screw and literally drag it to the right, then they are moronic...

I would like to see you teach an ignorant kid to "turn it to the right" without actually, physically, demonstrating what this means, and see if he can figure it out. The link between "right" and "clockwise" is unnatural and inconsistent, as demonstrated by various examples and testimonies throughout this thread.

Everyone must already learn what "right" and "clockwise" mean individually. By teaching this, you are adding an unnecessary layer of memorization between these two unrelated concepts.

 

[Grayman]

Kids know what clockwise and anti-clockwise mean... That's not the point of a mnemonic. The whole purpose of a mnemonic is to build an easy to remember phrase that helps you remember more important concepts.

I doubt it is that difficult to remember that clockwise is tighten. It is one simple relation. The mnemonic requires you to remember more things than a sigle relation.

 

[Thurlor]

I was doing a quick google before bed-time for alternative terms for clockwise and anti-clockwise and I have yet to find anything. I wonder how people described rotation before we had clocks. Would it have been compass directions?

 

[The Gopher]

WAIT THIS IS A TWO PAGE THREAD ON THE VALIDITY OF RIGHTY TIGHTY AND LEFTY LOOSEY...

What did I expect.

 

[Hawkeye]

I doubt it is that difficult to remember that clockwise is tighten. It is one simple relation. The mnemonic requires you to remember more things than a sigle relation.

If this were the case, why does "righty tighty" exist in the first place? It's short-hand for turn it right/clockwise to tighten... The reason righty is used instead of clockwise is because it rhymes, which helps with remembering it.

You seem to be missing the point of mnemonics. They are to help remember. I've yet to meet anyone that doesn't understand what that mnemonic means.

@ Hawkeye

I think you are missing the point.

That only works if your point of reference on the screw (or the hand) is at the 'top' edge. Otherwise it could well rotating to the top, bottom or left.

It is entirely relatively to the reference point you are using and the mnemonic doesn't specify that it should be the top.

Even without explicitly referring to clocks there is still the assumption that 12 o'clock (the 'top') is the starting point.

12 o'clock on a clock face has nothing to do with tightening something.

Once again you are over thinking a very, very simple concept. You do not need to go into depth about reference points... It's a screw ffs... not rocket science.

 

[Latte]

I doubt it is that difficult to remember that clockwise is tighten. It is one simple relation. The mnemonic requires you to remember more things than a sigle relation.

I suspect it's actually more difficult/energy draining for most people because "clockwise" is a concept that is or has to be abstracted and that for most people is related to and summons the thought of a clock which has to be viewed and then that direction has to be thought of in terms of what is in front of oneself.

Rightey Tightey, for most people, can be confusing the first time or so but due to its rythm and how much it evokes an actual image of tightening a screw, the correct way to tighten a screw as it would be represented in physical memory becomes very tightly/easily linked to the phrase, with "Rightey" taking on the meaning of the actual rotational direction that tightens rather than the idea of "to the right" or "to the right, but the top part is what should move right".

It circumvents "thought".

 

[pernoctator]

If this were the case, why does "righty tighty" exist in the first place?

I answered this in post #18:

They're called "right-handed" or "left-handed" screws because it takes less physical effort to apply clockwise torque with your right hand and vice versa.

This is the reason for it. It's obscure. A 5-year old kid is not going to make this connection. You need to physically demonstrate it for him. Which means the mnemonic is entirely redundant, as you could have just as easily said "tighty, loosey" while demonstrating. Throwing the other directions into the mix does nothing but add ambiguity. It's like calling out random numbers while someone is trying to remember a phone number.

 

[Hawkeye]

You do realise that the majority of fasteners with threads are right threaded?

Left threaded fasteners are for special purposes (generally for rotating parts). It has nothing to do with it being easier to apply torque with your hands... It's more to do with preventing the rotating equipment from loosening (most heavy duty rotating motors as found in lawn mowers for example spin clockwise, or to the right).

 

[pernoctator]

You do realise that the majority of fasteners with threads are right threaded?

Left threaded fasteners are for special purposes (generally for rotating parts). It has nothing to do with it being easier to apply torque with your hands... It's more to do with preventing the rotating equipment from loosening (most heavy duty rotating motors as found in lawn mowers for example spin clockwise, or to the right).

You have misunderstood. I was explaining why the terms "right" and "left" are used, not proposing a reason why most are "right".

You apparently believe the reason was that "right" and "clockwise" are innately synonymous. It was not, and they are not.

 

[Hawkeye]

You have misunderstood. I was explaining why the terms "right" and "left" are used, not proposing a reason why most are "right".

*cough*

They're called "right-handed" or "left-handed" screws because it takes less physical effort to apply clockwise torque with your right hand and vice versa.

Also, take note that they are called right-handed thread and left-handed thread, not clockwise thread and anti-clockwise thread

 

[pernoctator]

Also, take note that they are called right-handed thread and left-handed thread, not clockwise thread and anti-clockwise thread

Did you even read what I just posted?

 

[Hawkeye]

Did you even read what I just posted?

Yes I did.

I find it hard to believe that a 5 year old cannot understand the concept of righty tighty, lefty loosey.

 

[pernoctator]

I find it hard to believe that a 5 year old cannot understand the concept of righty tighty, lefty loosey.

Okay.

 

[Hawkeye]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX4lvAmGXzY

 

[TimeAsylums]

thread needs to be stickied to a thread that has "Ti overthink-ings/super-reductionism" Obviously only for funneh/unserious stuff.

 

[pernoctator]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR_8SDNQ0ks

 

[The Introvert]

We should have discussions like this, but over, y'know, stuff that matters.

 

[Thurlor]

After having spent some time googling this silliness I've come to the conclusion that I may be slightly wrong (in terms of convention).

http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_hand_grip_rule#Direction_associated_with_a_rotation

However, having to look something up to explain a mnemonic sort of lessens it's usefulness (for me anyway).

 

[Hawkeye]

This thread:

compared with

 

[Grayman]

This thread:

FROM WINZIP

...Zip file would not be substantially smaller than the first one (it may even be slightly larger). Again, this is because the data in the original Zip file is already compressed.
There are other file types that don't compress well. For example, certain types of encrypted data files, such as those used by home finance programs and some database products, will not compress very much.

 

[Grayman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX4lvAmGXzY

It's a good thing he cannot say righty tighty lefty lucy, or he would be as confused as shit.

 

[Hawkeye]

FROM WINZIP

I agree, although you are implying that the information you absorb is already the smallest it can go. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.

I remember reference dots on a fretboard using the same information, just clumped differently. For example: on the E string it goes G, A, B, C#, E. I remember it literally by saying "Gabsy sharpsy"

 

[Grayman]

After having spent some time googling this silliness I've come to the conclusion that I may be slightly wrong (in terms of convention).

http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_hand_grip_rule#Direction_associated_with_a_rotation

However, having to look something up to explain a mnemonic sort of lessens it's usefulness (for me anyway).

I had forgotten the rule was originated for electron flow and magnetism, I guess since anyone understands electron flow it makes sense. I think we should adopt the rotational direction of an electron as the indicator for bolts next. +spin is tight and -spin is loose. It is fairly simple. "Positively tight"

Or we could just let the 5 year olds that learned how to tighten and loosen do their thing without complicating it. We can just notify them that when they loosened the cap, they are turning it counter-clockwise.

 

[Hawkeye]

It's not like I'm saying all kids must learn righty tighty, lefty loosey...

You're arguing against mnemonics which is daft. Mnemonics help some people and so to dismiss them simply because they don't help you is highly egocentric and quite frankly narrow-minded.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Behold! The preposition list I memorized in 4th grade:

Spoiler

Near
About
Above
Across
After
Against
Before
Behind
Below
Beside
Between
Beyond
By
Down
During
For
From
In
Into
Of
On
Over
Through
To
Toward
Under
Until
Up
With
Within

"Near" was omitted in the text, so it was handwritten into the top of the list.

Same with the entire periodic table, including atomic mass to two decimals. Same with card counting.

Mnemonic? Nope. That's reserved for whatever doesn't enter the ol' brain via pure rote.

 

[OldCoyote]

I will no longer use the righty tighty lefty loosey saying..

From now on = "your tightening it.. stupid".

 

[Grayman]

Yah, and we could make our slogan STMUL so that we can remember it easier.

STMUL! STMUL! STMUL!

DO YOU GET WHAT I AM SAYING YOU BASTARDS. JOIN US! STMUL! STMUL!

 

[pernoctator]

Some mnemonics are like bzip2 files.

Compression is always performed, even if the compressed
file is slightly larger than the original. Files of less
than about one hundred bytes tend to get larger, since the
compression mechanism has a constant overhead in the
region of 50 bytes. Random data (including the output of
most file compressors) is coded at about 8.05 bits per
byte, giving an expansion of around 0.5%.

 

[nanook]

become the screw, facing the direction it's supposed to go. then, turning right is always right.

extend two fingers from your hand, whirl your whole hand as if to demonstrate the direction of the torsion. no matter where you point your two fingers, the motion of whirling your hand right is always the same. visualize your hand instead of actually doing the motion. this is how you become the screw. and how you remember the meaning of "right". through the sensation of it. you can become the neck of a bottle or it's cap or anything. all you need to visualize is a motion with a direction.

this method isn't relative to anything circumstantial. whatever words like in and out or tight and loose or left or right mean in a circumstance is not clearly defined in many situations, so more language can cause more confusion.

so if someone get's confused, just tell him to screw it the right way

 

[BigApplePi]

Spoiler

Righty easty, lefty westy.

 

[pernoctator]

all you need to visualize is a motion with a direction.

This seems to be dependent on the assumption that horizontal directions are easier to understand / visualize than rotation, but I'm not convinced that is true. After all, left-right confusion is not so uncommon (it affects at least one of my family members, in fact):
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/18/AR2008071802704.html

John R. Clarke, a professor of surgery at Drexel University in Philadelphia, estimates that about 15 percent of the population faces some degree of left/right challenge. Eric Chudler, a neuroscientist at the University of Washington in Seattle, puts the figure a bit higher, having found that more than 26 percent of college students and 19 percent of college professors acknowledge having difficulty telling left from right -- occasionally, frequently or always.

This is still a two-step recall process, with an unnecessary margin of error:

1. Which way must the screw be turned? Right.
2. If the screw had eyes, what motion would make it look to the right? Clockwise rotation.

As opposed to:

1. Which way must the screw be turned? Clockwise.

 

[BigApplePi]

Screw you (away); screw me (toward). If you are sensitive enough to direction you can tell if you are screwing or being screwed. No wait. The problem is you can't tell the difference.

 

[Grayman]

Screw you (away); screw me (toward). If you are sensitive enough to direction you can tell if you are screwing or being screwed. No wait. The problem is you can't tell the difference.

Seems your screwed.

 

[Happy]

Here in Australia all gas fittings are 'reverse thread'. I've known a few people to break their bbq fittings.

I was surprised the other day when I changed the gas on a beer tap system and it used the regular thread.

 

[Base groove]

Yes, mnemonics are useless and a waste of time to memorize. Why can't everyone just memorize information exactly as it is. Bastards.

What about the cranial nerves?