Real Person

[kantor1003]

I don't feel like a real person in my social interactions. I feel like I'm giving orders to an empty shell (that would be me, my body, "me"). I have always been the observer... I still am.. the only difference is now I'm a social active observer. I give orders to my "self" which do what it's told, so I never feel like anything told to me by others, or experienced, in a social interaction really applies to me.. and even if it did, I can't really care anymore, as I can never convey my Real "self" using our interaction method to other people anyways, and with that realization, that they can't know "me", how could I take anything seriously, as it can't apply to my "real" me? It only applies to the primitive model of me that I have conveyed to them during our relatively short time spent together.
What can I do? I want to feel more real and more in tune with "myself" in my immediate environment... with others

Spoiler

*drunken post, but sincere*

 

[DesertSmeagle]

Thats fukin cool. I thought i was the only one who was a fukin freak.It feels like im some kind of other consciousness giving my body orders to go through life. Its like im detached from everything and am constantly observing everyone around me. Sometimes it feels like im not even there, and im like a camera in a soapopera or something...Must be ultra introversion or something.

 

[Beat Mango]

And here is one of the problems with the PUA scene, particularly for people like us. I'm sure you've heard the term, "social robot".

 

[kantor1003]

Yeah I think it's particularly prone to "destroy" people like me, which have a very "intellectual", rational approach to socializing to begin with.. but I'm not sure if I can blame it all on the whole pua thing.. I think I would be in the same position anyways..

Edit: yeah, desert, your not alone..

 

[EyeSeeCold]

What can I do? I want to feel more real and more in tune with "myself" in my immediate environment... with others

Spoiler

*drunken post, but sincere*

Hook up with an Se dominant chick. I swear that will totally bring your mind back into your body.

What really sucks is crossing the street. You feel so awkward and exposed.

 

[Anthile]

Confucius said, if you want to be different, be different.

 

[kantor1003]

Hook up with an Se dominant chick. I swear that will totally bring your mind back into your body.

What really sucks is crossing the street. You feel so awkward and exposed.

I have hooked up with some Se dominant dudes lately (chicks, I'm not sure, as I only do my thing and do what I do to get what I want, not giving too much a damn about them ) and it helps in a lot of ways.. but it only helps my "persona" develop. Maybe I'm crazy, but I feel everything I learn only helps developing this 3d person idiot that isn't really me.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

I thought you were describing increased awareness commonly associated with Ti dom, but this sounds like depersonalization.

Common descriptions include a feeling of being outside one's body; "floating on the ceiling looking down at myself" feeling as if one's body is dissolving or changing; feeling as if one is a machine or robot; "unreal" feeling that one is in a dream or that one"is on automatic pilot."
http://www.minddisorders.com/Del-Fi/Depersonalization-disorder.html#ixzz0ycU9mZD8​

More: http://www.minddisorders.com/Del-Fi/Depersonalization-disorder.html
​

 

[DesertSmeagle]

Holy shit EyeSee. I was just gonna say, this sounds like depersonalization/derealization.
Ive always thought i was somewhat derealized..It used to be really bad, like i was ina dream. And you cant even imagine the derealization when your goin through cymbalta withrawal..That was the craziest week of my life. It literally felt like like nothing was real, and everytime i moved my eyes id get this weird tickling in my brrain haha..Its slightly better now since im off brain pills.

 

[Nerd.]

I know how you feel, and I go through phases like that myself. It's like the actual world is so very different from the internal world that there is no way they can overlap. Interactions seem hallow and it all feels like wearing another person's skin. Usually, I just need something to help me reset. Or I need to finish working on whatever is causing the withdrawl. Solving a problem, finding a pattern. Working through an issue all my own. It's stress-related. Though I cannot say I am every really present. Never fully attending to my current situation. Can never identify my feelings or thoughts in the moment. Not until they have been processed and are ready for observation. I would like to think that is normal. Relatively speaking.

Is there anything that you find grounding? Anything refreshing? Is this everything that is troubling you? Or are you working through some additional problems/puzzles, which could be causing the disconnection?

 

[kantor1003]

Nerd:
Difficult questions, which might be the cause of my later ramblings.
I am not even sure if I am like this all the time, or if it is a periodical thing. I would think it's like this pretty much all the time. I've gotten used to it though, that I'm that disconnected from whats happening around me.. while I am, I can still make a decent portrait of someone really in tune with what is happening - it is kinda tiresome though.
I'm not sure if anything substantial is troubling me either.
"Or are you working through some additional problems/puzzles, which could be causing the disconnection?"

Spoiler

Yes, I know of one puzzle which perhaps have helped facilitate my feeling of distance in social relations. Mango hit it on the head I think when he mentioned PUA. I have been into social dynamics for quite a while now and been "experimenting" on girls... the problem is though, that my experimentation has really "paid off".. and if I continue, I'll might improve to a level where I can get what I want from pretty much every girl out there in a really short amount of time. The dilemma is obviously how this self, developed for a specific purpose, matches with my other self.. (I have problems getting girls in my everyday school environment for example, but that might just be practice as well) but also, it has actively made me way more cynical about people. I was already very conscious about social dynamics; the way people all the time try to manipulate each other and I was always trying to make sense of all the small things that went on - almost to the point of not being able to focus on a conversation - so this certainly didn't help... and in addition to this, I now have a mental framework, lingo, that emphasizes these observations even further, which also hints me to what to say and what to do, how to say it and how to portray it.

 

[Lyra]

You're in the PU scene?

Get out. Just get out.

The entire dynamic involved in engagement with that community is one which reinforces the fundamental ethos that prevents the solutions that the community is supposedly geared towards finding. The most important step in most people's development is to abandon and reject the scene and its worldviews, and to realise just how differently things can look, and work, from the outside. And then to experiment a little, and become themselves.

And then to think: it's so easy. It's always been like this.

The PU scene if fucking dangerous in terms of what it does to most people's psyche. Through years of involvement, I saw far more degeneracy and problem-making than 'improvement'. Whatever 'improvement' there was was necessarily concomitant with a sort of blindness-- like a person had to betray themselves and close their eyes to much of what they would otherwise be to 'succeed'. It really doesn't have to be like that.

Leave, and see with your own eyes. Feel with your own hands.

 

[Lyra]

and if I continue, I'll might improve to a level where I can get what I want from pretty much every girl out there in a really short amount of time

No, you won't.

I once had this as an ideal (with people generally, not all girls). To understand the systems which they constituted, and participated in, to such an extent that I could create whatever impression or effect I wished. Ultimately, it just fucks with your expression of who you are, spontaneously and without affection, because you're always heading towards this unreachable ideal of social imperium. What tends to happen is that in the pursuit of this ideal the person become whatever he thinks others require him to be, to give a positive response.

Hence, perhaps, dissociation. You are being an impression to cause a reaction, not a living expression of you as you would be without this need.

Once you drop that filter, though, you'll realise that girls are humans. And that you don't, and will never, be able to have whatever you want from 'pretty much every human'. Not me. Not my love. Not the girls I spend my time with. Not many, many people who you don't happen to encounter/process through your current.... oh, what was it... 'frame'.


But, if you refine yourself (via other routes than the PU community, almost certainly), you'll also likely start to encounter people who mesh with you as you are spontaneously. Without dissociation. You'll start to find yourself embodied in those around you, truly. And then you'll laugh at the thoughts of this ridiculous, twisted self-betrayal that you once were.

 

[Lyra]

Also, the following is slightly different, but I wrote it during my 'personality change' experiments:

http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?p=78529

(Start from the top of that page).


----

p.s. About the last post: that you could hold such a distorted perspective (about 'every girl' etc.) is one of the problems. The PU scene has a lot of deliberate perspective-shifting, motivated by very strong desires, and the result tends to be a gross distortion. (Of 'frame' and 'belief' etc.). These distortions normally cripple useful and knowing systemic change, because they prevent the accurate apprehension and brutal self-honesty that such requires.

They also, in your case, have the incidental side-effect of reducing half of humanity to a completely inapplicable stereotype, thereby making the cosmos as you live in it a much duller place. And consequently rendering any claim you have to being able to 'get what you want from' it clearly false, because such an ability presupposes an understanding which the way you made the claim evidences the absence of.

This kind of self-blinding is the norm-- no, the rule-- in the pickup community.

 

[Da Blob]

Hmmm interesting thread, I am unfamiliar with PUA, but at an early age i realized I was nothing but a mirror. People saw 'me' as they wished to see me. They judged me on the basis of what they imagined they saw of themselves reflected from me. I toyed with the idea of only reflecting positive images in a calculating manipulative manner as my very popular younger brother did, but instead I thought 'fuck humans, I am going to be who I am" and then withdrew from society into my sanctuary of my childhood, The Library.

I learned to deal with rejection by realizing no one in the world actually knew me, so they could not possibly reject me, they were just rejecting an image of their own they projected onto me. The relatively rare incidents of acceptance were no different, people were accepting one of their own imaginations of who/what I was and not the 'real' me. For such i usually played along and told those people what they wanted to hear and displayed what they wanted to see. However, as i matured I simply found myself to take any 'feedback' personally - even sex lost its attraction after the rut of adolescence finally subsided. I saw that the females were having sex with my body and not with me, that it was just a dildo of sorts for them.

I have little respect for humanity in general. They seemed to bought into the idea that "Image is everything", when image is a fabrication. I am still quite amazed at how many people think these manufactured products of the media are somehow real, the "Lady GaGa's' of the world or the fictions of the "Evening News".

I guess for many, they find security in this world of images and imaginations because it is a shared experience and with those they share this dream world with, they can pretend that this world of fabricated images is the "Real World"

Is it any surprise that Kantor and others feel detached and 'unreal' in such a context?

What can I do? I want to feel more real and more in tune with "myself" in my immediate environment... with others

Well, if 'feelings' are your goal, you can continue to drink heavily until you burn your brain out and become stupid enough to buy into the shared experience of the 'real world" or you can sober up and start exploring for the real 'real world', your Self...
One thing to look for, in the social environment, are those few that do have their eyes open and appreciate honesty for what it is - courage and confidence.

 

[Nerd.]

I can get what I want from pretty much every girl out there in a really short amount of time. The dilemma is obviously how this self, developed for a specific purpose, matches with my other self

This would be a huge source of disconnect for me. I'm not really sure what a PUA is. I looked it up. It said Pick-Up Artist. I didn't know there was a "scene". Except in old movies. I don't get out much. Anyway. I imagine that this would cheapen your social and sexual experiences significantly. Maybe this is where INTPs differ. I don't know. But I would not feel right having any kind of sexual or prolonged social contact with someone I do not respect. Formulas are fine. Experimenting is fun. I think everyone plays around with this at some point. But it's a catch-and-release system. Otherwise, you could develop unhealthy views of the opposite sex. You become cynical. When someone who is genuinely right for you appears, you blow it. If you have it perfected, then its time to find a new social experiment. I realize there's the sex-drive which must be addressed. But it's something to weigh in your mind. Quality versus immediacy. It sounds like your current situation is not working for you.

 

[kantor1003]

DaBlob:
Thanks for your input. Sick how similar your experiences are to mine. I don't even know what to say..
did you ever, having this realization, change your image to evoke specific change in people around you? Not only to "give them what they wanted", but to make them give you what you wanted, or perhaps for experimental purposes only?


Lyra:
I'm not involved with the pu scene the way you think. I read that you were an active member, I am not. I just happened to read a book or three and watched a couple of videos. The result was more a seed, the planting of a desire to experiment with myself more than anything else. I don't do routines, (I did do a couple of k-close routines for experimental purposes, but I don't, nor need them anymore) I mostly experiment with my frame* (I only call it frame because both you and I know what it means and it's a good way to describe that kind of personality experimentation).
The experiments has no doubt caused a change in the way I handle myself in specific scenarios, and perhaps overall as well.

I'm not consciously attempting to 'be' anyone, but emulations do have a permanent effect upon my personality.

In my case, I was, and am consciously trying to be someone, but not a static persona derived from any pua ideal, but rather someone suited for giving me specific results - you could say it is static in that regard - but the desire for mating and acknowledgment is nothing I can do squat shit about.

the emulations do have a permanent effect upon my personality

I don't know to which extent yet, but changes have occurred. I would presume my dissociation could be the conflict that happens between what has not yet become me and what is already me - and that which is not yet me, is often not derived from any outside ideal. If it is, I don't think it's the way you think.

to realise just how differently things can look, and work, from the outside. And then to experiment a little, and become themselves.

I agree, for me though, it was pu that gave me the drive to do what it takes to do this kind of experimentation. What was your reason for doing personality experimentation?
If I'm not mistaken, I don't think it differed too much from mine. You are a human too, after all.

and if I continue, I'll might improve to a level where I can get what I want from pretty much every girl out there in a really short amount of time" - me

No, you won't.

I don't actually believe I can get any girl. I believe I can get to a point where I can get way more than I could have. You think I represent a static image derived from pu, I don't. I try to adapt to people as much as I can, without sacrificing my (lol) self, and they no doubt have a great impact on the way I communicate with them as well..
If they are really charismatic, or function in a very different way than myself, in a way that I admire, I always try to find out how they work. If I spend a relatively large amount of time with them they can introduce a lasting effect/change/perception in me and the way I look at the world. It is not like I'm pushing a static pu derived reality onto them.

Hence, perhaps, dissociation. You are being an impression to cause a reaction, not a living expression of you as you would be without this need.

I am being an impression to cause a reaction when I do new experiments with my personality. You must have been too when you did your "emulations" to cause permanent change in your personality. You can't invoke drastic change without doing experiments that greatly differs from your normal perception of self.
I see how this can fuck me up though, and cause dissociation.

In short, I don't think I'm a PU stereotype, and you are addressing me as one, so I obviously made a wrong impression. For me, PU acted as a catalyst more then anything else.

 

[Lyra]

Alright, that's fair. I apologise if I treated you as a stereotype.

I think what I wrote might still have value though, as other PU-scene people will likely see it (by search or whatever), and it applies to them.

Just one note: I recognise that it might just have been a catalyst, and that's probably one of the most healthy involvements a person can have with PU. It's just that, usually, that catalyst also functions in a way that directs the way the person it acts upon develops afterward. The implicit end-goals-- the grass the encountered material postulates is on the other side of the fence it postulates-- are very often accepted by readers, particularly if that material awakens them to possibilities (i.e. different ways of engaging with socio-sexual dynamics) they weren't aware of before.

But, once again-- none of that necessarily applies in your case. I hope my comments were of some interest to you regardless, if only from an impersonal perspective.

The most important thing, ime, is independent experimentation, curiosity and research, and a willingness to alter or ruthlessly critique first-principles. Hating what the community did to me (I found it at 14-- started having threesomes shortly afterward, so I kind of got hooked) was, like you mentioned, one of the motivations for my personality experiments. They were designed to enable all of those aforementioned things. Which, not incidentally, are what involvement with the community over even very limited periods tends to discourage.

 

[Cavallier]

I learned to deal with rejection by realizing no one in the world actually knew me, so they could not possibly reject me, they were just rejecting an image of their own they projected onto me. The relatively rare incidents of acceptance were no different, people were accepting one of their own imaginations of who/what I was and not the 'real' me. For such i usually played along and told those people what they wanted to hear and displayed what they wanted to see. However, as i matured I simply found myself to take any 'feedback' personally - even sex lost its attraction after the rut of adolescence finally subsided. I saw that the females were having sex with my body and not with me, that it was just a dildo of sorts for them.

^Oddly enough I've had a similar experience in this case.

@ OP: The issue I take with The Pick Up Artist's tactics is that they are so obviously flawed. It's easy to recognize a PUA in action. If the subject has no seeming option other than to fall for the ploy then the subject is dealing with a PUA. Another downfall is the reliance on image/perception as the main motivator. Say the PUA wants to get something out of a target. The target is approached and bantered with but never given the option to gracefully reject the PUA. The target may wish to reject the PUA (or even recognize that they are the target of a PUA) but can not find a socially acceptable way to do so without looking bad. Thus the target is seemingly forced to choose between looking bad or just going along with the PUA's game. The key to escaping this scenario is to realize there is always a third option (entirely dependent on the situation in hand) or to recognize that "looking bad" is something shallow dimwits worry about on a long term basis.* Surviving a PUA just involves giving up the need to maintain appearances and an ability to stretch your perceptions of what your choices are. (It is a sort of survival since somebody will, to a greater or lesser extent, end up hurt.) However, these evasive maneuvers aren't often even needed. It is not unusual for the PUA to be as weak minded as the target and to focused on the end result to recognize they are in danger of losing their target until it's too late.

I think everybody uses PUA tactics on a regular basis. In fact it's often a carefully organized ritual that benefits the target as much as the PUA him/herself. Which leaves the intentional/predatory Pick Up Artist always wondering whether they are in fact the target in somebody else's game and if they've just been played.

This is fascinating, fun, and exciting but I find myself growing bored and disgusted with it quickly. Plus there's no hope of every having a fulfilling relationship if you only deal in PUA tactics.

*If looking bad in a particular situation is paramount to social ostracism (the stakes can never be higher than that) then the target needs to get out of that social circle anyway.

 

[Da Blob]

DaBlob:
Thanks for your input. Sick how similar your experiences are to mine. I don't even know what to say..
did you ever, having this realization, change your image to evoke specific change in people around you? Not only to "give them what they wanted", but to make them give you what you wanted, or perhaps for experimental purposes only?

No, my younger brother was a first-class manipulator and i watched him work a crowd, selecting his prey. I had never any doubts about being able to manipulate people, i just saw it as basically unethical with only short term rewards. My brother now sits in a house down the road, a lonely, dying alcoholic without a single friend in the world, whereas, I communicate regularly with the few friends i made in high school and college via facebook etc.

As far as the role of sex in a person's life. Sex is the method of making babies. Anyone who has sex without the hope of conception of their baby via the act is really just cheating their own selves. I am not saying this in a religious context, but rather referring to a psychological pattern.

If the hope for reproduction is removed from the act, then it degrades to merely a pleasure-seeking activity - just masturbation using different objects as dildos or whatever. When people talk about sex, in these modern days, they are really talking about what,from a biological POV, has to be considered masturbation and nothing else.

Sexual 'experimentation' is justing shopping around for sex toys and sex objects that will provide the 'best' orgasms from masturbation. The problem that I have seen is that individuals that travel down that route are easily bored and are always on the lookout for new sexual objects/partners or toys.... Almost like nymphomania, but not as uncontrolled, but ultimately just as fruitless.

My first wife taught me a very valuable lesson. Once after a magnificent performance on my part, including the elusive simultaneous orgasm, she rolled out from underneath, lit a cigarette and said "men are so stupid, you go through so much trouble and take so many risks just for a few fleeting seconds of an orgasm, I bet you already want another one, yes?"

I thought about it - of course she was right. The fleeting orgasm - the carrot on the stick, held in front of the jackasses that are men while they pulled the burden of society as slaves to the mere promise of an orgasm...

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

My first wife taught me a very valuable lesson. Once after a magnificent performance on my part, including the elusive simultaneous orgasm, she rolled out from underneath, lit a cigarette and said "men are so stupid, you go through so much trouble and take so many risks just for a few fleeting seconds of an orgasm, I bet you already want another one, yes?"

I thought about it - of course she was right. The fleeting orgasm - the carrot on the stick, held in front of the jackasses that are men while they pulled the burden of society as slaves to the mere promise of an orgasm...

She seems to be projecting her own self loathing in regards to the enjoyment and satisfaction of orgasms onto men.

Even if her analysis is applicable in most cases why do you care?

 

[Beat Mango]

Hmmm interesting thread, I am unfamiliar with PUA, but at an early age i realized I was nothing but a mirror. People saw 'me' as they wished to see me. They judged me on the basis of what they imagined they saw of themselves reflected from me. I toyed with the idea of only reflecting positive images in a calculating manipulative manner as my very popular younger brother did, but instead I thought 'fuck humans, I am going to be who I am" and then withdrew from society into my sanctuary of my childhood, The Library.

I learned to deal with rejection by realizing no one in the world actually knew me, so they could not possibly reject me, they were just rejecting an image of their own they projected onto me. The relatively rare incidents of acceptance were no different, people were accepting one of their own imaginations of who/what I was and not the 'real' me. For such i usually played along and told those people what they wanted to hear and displayed what they wanted to see. However, as i matured I simply found myself to take any 'feedback' personally - even sex lost its attraction after the rut of adolescence finally subsided. I saw that the females were having sex with my body and not with me, that it was just a dildo of sorts for them.

I have little respect for humanity in general. They seemed to bought into the idea that "Image is everything", when image is a fabrication. I am still quite amazed at how many people think these manufactured products of the media are somehow real, the "Lady GaGa's' of the world or the fictions of the "Evening News".

I guess for many, they find security in this world of images and imaginations because it is a shared experience and with those they share this dream world with, they can pretend that this world of fabricated images is the "Real World"

Is it any surprise that Kantor and others feel detached and 'unreal' in such a context?

I kept waiting for the part where you said, "then I got over it, and accepted the world for what it was". And it never came. The problem with renouncing the world in order to explore the self is that the self is, in isolation, a nothing. A no thing.

I'm surprised to hear you were married?

 

[Da Blob]

She seems to be projecting her own self loathing in regards to the enjoyment and satisfaction of orgasms onto men.

Even if her analysis is applicable in most cases why do you care?

Because it pointed out to me how much of my time I had wasted chasing the butterflies of orgasm. If I added up the number of hours i spent thinking about sex, dreaming about sex, contemplating sex etc. it would add up to years. Whereas if I added up the time involved in actual orgasms it would just add up to a few minutes. Sad to think about but I may have traded an entire year of my life for a mere minute's worth of orgasms.

I kept waiting for the part where you said, "then I got over it, and accepted the world for what it was". And it never came. The problem with renouncing the world in order to explore the self is that the self is, in isolation, a nothing. A no thing.

I'm surprised to hear you were married?

One measures Self in relationship to other selves including one's own past and future selves, as well as the hypothetical Others - not in a void

Why surprised? Any fool can get married...

 

[kantor1003]

Lyra: No worries, I just thought I'd clarify.
On your note, thats definitely a valid point.. but I think it's unavoidable.. how did you get out of it?

Cavallier:
I can't see the obvious flaw in pu itself. It is intended for picking up girls - and it does a good job. For relationships, well, thats another thing. I tend to look at pu as a way of making sure you get contact, making a good first impression, so you get the window of opportunity to express who you are and get to know each other better.. Or for a simple tool to get laid, if that's all your after.

Everyone uses PUA tactics because woman respond positively to them (obviously generalizing). Pick up methods has just tried to get it down to a science.

DaBlob:
"Sex is the method of making babies. Anyone who has sex without the hope of conception of their baby via the act is really just cheating their own selves."
??? Cheating yourself because you surrender to your urges? I fail to see how. Perhaps you could elaborate on what you mean by "cheating your self"? Having a sexual desire, but refusing to act up on it, is cheating your self, imo... not the other way around.

 

[Beat Mango]

One measures Self in relationship to other selves including one's own past and future selves, as well as the hypothetical Others - not in a void

Why surprised? Any fool can get married...

Just didn't think the married life would appeal to one of your ilk.

 

[Da Blob]

Just didn't think the married life would appeal to one of your ilk.

After a time it ddn't I have lived as a celibate recluse for about 23 years now

??? Cheating yourself because you surrender to your urges? I fail to see how. Perhaps you could elaborate on what you mean by "cheating you self"? Having a sexual desire, but refusing to act up on it, is cheating your self, imo... not the other way around.

Because urges are not human, but reptilian in nature, very primitive structures that can be easily manipulated and controlled, by one's self or unfortunately others as well. I think that "surrendering to urges" is perhaps the most destructive type of action there is... Think about the people you might know or have heard about that were deeply hurt or hurt someone else because they 'surrendered to an urge"...

From a certain perspective Urges are your Enemies and if you surrender to them, they will show no mercy...

Again, we are programmed to indulge in sex to reproduce, but the act is not the end, the goal , but rather the beginning of a whole set of biological programming involving the creation of a family and offspring. Those who think that sex is the end of a relationship, the finish line, the trophy, never realize the beginning it can represent. A beginning of Life...

 

[Tyria]

The purpose of my post is to ask questions to clarify the phenomenon described in the OP.

I don't feel like a real person in my social interactions. I feel like I'm giving orders to an empty shell (that would be me, my body, "me").

When you are in this 'empty shell' state, do you experience any feelings? If so, what are they and how would you describe them?

Does this 'empty shell' state happen only when you are in social situations? Does it happen in all social situations? Does it occur in your daily living?

I have always been the observer... I still am.. the only difference is now I'm a social active observer. I give orders to my "self" which do what it's told, so I never feel like anything told to me by others, or experienced, in a social interaction really applies to me..

I'm trying to understand this part.

So you don't feel like the things said to you or that you experience apply because you are not directly involved in the interaction? Do you view yourself as a proxy for the 'self' that is involved in social interactions?

and even if it did, I can't really care anymore, as I can never convey my Real "self" using our interaction method to other people anyways, and with that realization, that they can't know "me", how could I take anything seriously, as it can't apply to my "real" me? It only applies to the primitive model of me that I have conveyed to them during our relatively short time spent together.

What is it about your Real 'self' that you find difficulty conveying to another person? Have you tried any other interaction methods than the one described in the OP?

If you could convey your Real 'self', would you feel more involved in your social interactions?

What can I do? I want to feel more real and more in tune with "myself" in my immediate environment... with others

Spoiler

*drunken post, but sincere*

I can't make a recommendation without more information.

 

[kantor1003]

Great questions Tyria, and thanks for your interest. I'll try to answer them tomorrow when I sober up.

 

[Wish]

I'll try to answer them tomorrow when I sober up.

Have you considered this as a factor?

 

[kantor1003]

Have you considered this as a factor?

No, because it isn't really an issue. I don't drink too much, even though the impression given to this forum, perhaps, indicate otherwise.

 

[kantor1003]

Tyria:

"When you are in this 'empty shell' state, do you experience any feelings? If so, what are they and how would you describe them?"

I would say I experience emotions. Sometimes they are watered down, but suiting (at least from what I believe a human would feel in that particular situation), and derived from the social context. Usually though, I feel pretty distant, and most of my feelings derive from this acknowledgement, and what comes with it, and not from the immediate social environment itself. I think it comes from over thinking things in a social context not allowing me to be a spontaneous, feeling self.

"Does this 'empty shell' state happen only when you are in social situations? Does it happen in all social situations? Does it occur in your daily living?"

It doesn't happen in every situation, or at least I'm not aware of it. The situations that tend to bring out this state is probably social environments where
A I'm not comfortable
B I feel I have nothing in common with the participants
C I meet new girls, or talk with girls - it doesn't matter if I have known them for 1 hour or 3 months (this is the BIG one, if there is just one cute girl present in the group, it hits me.)

"So you don't feel like the things said to you or that you experience apply because you are not directly involved in the interaction? Do you view yourself as a proxy for the 'self' that is involved in social interactions?"

Exactly.

"What is it about your Real 'self' that you find difficulty conveying to another person?"

When I think about it.... I don't think I know what my real self is... The problem must be that I just convey what I think I should convey, my actions and words don't manifest from "me" so much as from the idea of how I should act and speak. As Lyra put so beautifully; "You are being an impression to cause a reaction, not a living expression of you as you would be without this need."

"Have you tried any other interaction methods than the one described in the OP?"

Other than language? Yes, sometimes touching feels more real, sometimes it doesn't.

"If you could convey your Real 'self', would you feel more involved in your social interactions?"

Maybe my analytical nature would still prevent me from doing so... but wait, I'm not sure if I'm analytical in nature either.. :/ for now, I'll assume I am though..

That list of questions is probably the "best" questions I ever have been asked
Greatly appreciated.

 

[kantor1003]

Da Blob:
I differ, I think our urges are just as much "us" as the more human exclusive traits, therefore I think it follows that a denial of what you refer to as "reptilian in nature", will have negative consequences for the upper structural human traits.

 

[Tyria]

Before I continue, I wanted to disclose that I have no formal training in either psychology or psychiatry. I thought this is an important (and relevant) piece of information for you to consider throughout discussion (and any advice that I may give).

Tyria:

"When you are in this 'empty shell' state, do you experience any feelings? If so, what are they and how would you describe them?"

I would say I experience emotions. Sometimes they are watered down, but suiting (at least from what I believe a human would feel in that particular situation), and derived from the social context. Usually though, I feel pretty distant, and most of my feelings derive from this acknowledgement, and what comes with it, and not from the immediate social environment itself. I think it comes from over thinking things in a social context not allowing me to be a spontaneous, feeling self.

"What is it about your Real 'self' that you find difficulty conveying to another person?"

When I think about it.... I don't think I know what my real self is... The problem must be that I just convey what I think I should convey, my actions and words don't manifest from "me" so much as from the idea of how I should act and speak. As Lyra put so beautifully; "You are being an impression to cause a reaction, not a living expression of you as you would be without this need."

"So you don't feel like the things said to you or that you experience apply because you are not directly involved in the interaction? Do you view yourself as a proxy for the 'self' that is involved in social interactions?"

Exactly.

Based on what you've told me, you are visualizing yourself as separate from the conversation. Since you are focusing your energy on analyzing (and responding to) the other person's questions, your emotions are not participating as an active result of the interaction.

It's important to realize what you are thinking and showing yourself in your interactions with others. When you interact with others, ask yourself:

What am I thinking about?
What am I showing myself?

I believe that the brain reacts to things that we visualize and think about. The brain takes these inputs and has a reactionary output. By identifying our inputs, it is possible to become aware of (and modify them) for a resulting change in output.

If you would like, you can try to practice identifying what you are thinking/showing yourself at various times during your day (and your interactions with others). I think you will become more self-aware as you practice.

"Does this 'empty shell' state happen only when you are in social situations? Does it happen in all social situations? Does it occur in your daily living?"

It doesn't happen in every situation, or at least I'm not aware of it. The situations that tend to bring out this state is probably social environments where
A I'm not comfortable
B I feel I have nothing in common with the participants
C I meet new girls, or talk with girls - it doesn't matter if I have known them for 1 hour or 3 months (this is the BIG one, if there is just one cute girl present in the group, it hits me.)

For part A:
When you say you're not comfortable, how does it manifest? It is physical? Emotional? Are you tense? Do you feel like you need to leave?

For part B:
Please clarify what it is that you have nothing in common with the participants - is it:
age?
race?
gender?
nationality?
education?
religion?
socio-economic status?
upbringing?
hobbies?
interests?
dreams?
field of study?

For part C:
Just be yourself. Try spending some time talking with girls to gain more experience (in dealing with them) and a higher level of comfort when talking with them. If you don't know what to talk to them about, try to find something both you and she have in common (interest, hobby, experience, something you've read, etc). Or you could try to get them to talk about themselves.

"Have you tried any other interaction methods than the one described in the OP?"

Other than language? Yes, sometimes touching feels more real, sometimes it doesn't.

What about setting? Are you more comfortable interacting in certain places than others? (ex. at school, at a shop, at a library, etc.)

"If you could convey your Real 'self', would you feel more involved in your social interactions?"

Maybe my analytical nature would still prevent me from doing so... but wait, I'm not sure if I'm analytical in nature either.. :/ for now, I'll assume I am though..

That list of questions is probably the "best" questions I ever have been asked
Greatly appreciated.

Why aren't you sure you are analytical in nature?

I thank you for the compliment. I'm not sure my questions deserve it, but I'll take it nonetheless.

Take care,
Tyria

 

[NiMur90]

Wow, I thought I was the only one like that, OP!

 

[kantor1003]

For part A:
When you say you're not comfortable, how does it manifest? It is physical? Emotional? Are you tense? Do you feel like you need to leave?

In my mind it manifests by me feeling less in tune with the environment, perhaps not knowing what to do or what to say, and by extension it emphasizes the sensation of feeling like a "proxy" for the self, as you said. Regarding a physical manifestation, that is secondary and not the real issue.. thats not where the "problem" is. Sure, when I'm uncomfortable I'd want to leave unless I'm in a masochistic mood.

For part B:
Please clarify what it is that you have nothing in common with the participants - is it:
age?
race?
gender?
nationality?
education?
religion?
socio-economic status?
upbringing?
hobbies?
interests?
dreams?
field of study?

I don't think I can narrow it down to such categories. I should have said instances where I have bad social chemistry with the person/group instead. It is more about the person(s) outlook and what vibe they are feeding me then what hobbies, for example, they have. Give me a positive, happy person that feeds me that vibe, not just to other people in the group, and I'll be a happy positive person - and most likely I'll be comfortable no matter where that person comes from, what he/she does and what he/she is interested in.. But still, I find it very hard to exactly pinpoint any of this as it has much to do with, ironically, feelings felt at the moment of encounter.. at least I think so.. for example, just the way one look at you can change everything.

For part C:
Just be yourself. Try spending some time talking with girls to gain more experience (in dealing with them) and a higher level of comfort when talking with them. If you don't know what to talk to them about, try to find something both you and she have in common (interest, hobby, experience, something you've read, etc). Or you could try to get them to talk about themselves.

I have no problems talking to girls, although it can be a little setting related. I mean, I can talk with girls about monkeys and bananas for 2 hours in the right context. It is just that me encountering them emphasize the sensation of being a proxy for the self greatly. I feel like I have to do things a certain way, or say things a certain way to trigger certain things.

What about setting? Are you more comfortable interacting in certain places than others? (ex. at school, at a shop, at a library, etc.)

Yes, absolutely. In general I prefer places where I'm unknown and can be whatever I want to be to whomever I talk to or places where I'm high up in the social hierarchy. The reason, I think, for me preferring places where I'm unknown is related to the social hierarchy. In some social circuits I'm very far down, in others I'm very far up. When I meet new people I can, in the right mindset, manage to climb to the top, instead of spending time with some people I have known for a long time, where I might be stuck further down.

Why aren't you sure you are analytical in nature?

I think it was me doing some sort of satire to illustrate me being unsure of everything these days..