Reactions to "duty", "virtue", "citizenship", etc...

[Sapphire Harp]

I'm hoping for something like a scatter plot here of reactions with this thread, so whatever goes...

* * * * *
​

Virtue, Duty, Citizenship, Loyalty, Responsibility, etc...

* * * * *
​

How do you all react to these words? What do they make you think of? Do you encounter people who usually talk about these things? Do you use them yourself? Rarely? Often? Readily? Uncomfortably?

Take it away, if you please...
​

 

[Artifice Orisit]

Little to no reaction, they're concepts out of context.

 

[Deleted member 1424]

I think of my dad. He's an ISTJ so he deeply values all the things you mentioned. Ironically he is also a border patrol agent so 'citizenship' is also appropriate.

Though to me these words all seem very 'heavy.'

 

[Anthile]

Misunderstood and misused.

 

[Sapphire Harp]

Misunderstood and misused.

That's a pretty hefty thing to be saying... Who do you see abusing them Anthile? And I'd really like to hear what you think they -ought- to be used for...
​

 

[Firehazard159]

Virtue, Duty, Citizenship, Loyalty, Responsibility, etc...

First off, i should start by saying I idolize paladins and angels in fantasy for some reason, so all these things actually have some value to me simply due to that.

Virtue, I appreciate, but have trouble sticking to in real life due to having little value overall.
Duty, I do believe in and tend to follow most of the time. Although, this could be mixed up with responsibility. I very much feel like I'm obligated to follow through with certain things, to a fault even. It drags heavily upon me though, and I avoid any sort of obligatory commitments whenever possible.
Citizenship: Entirely meaningless to me really.
Loyalty: This is really important to me, but I feel pretty jaded overall and so there is effectively no one who has my loyalty. When I am loyal to someone, it's usually very strong. Though, for several mixed reasons, I can flake on any of these things more easily than I like to admit to.

 

[Anthile]

That's a pretty hefty thing to be saying... Who do you see abusing them Anthile? And I'd really like to hear what you think they -ought- to be used for...
​

When I think of these words I think of politicians and priests shouting them at the masses to manipulate.



Loyalty is being faithful to someone or something even if you don't profit from it. True loyalty shows itself not in time of peace and is something that is declared too hastily nowadays.

Duties are the things that you are obliged to do because of legal or moral reasons. This has been often enough abused by the people who are in charge because they neglected their duties.

etc.

 

[krisshoe]

Why would I have a reaction to a word? Use those words to form an idea, and I'll give you my reaction.

 

[walfin]

I have an utterly absurd pride in my citizenship. Because I find it a minor miracle that my country is independent. Citizenships can be useful for certain things depending on the country you reside in.

Duty is a useful thing to invoke around other people sometimes Duty and responsibility are kind of the same.

Virtue generally applies to women.

Loyalty. I don't quite understand that yet.

 

[Ogion]

Well let's see.

Virtue is basically a category. A word describing a list of good traits ahuman can or should have. For that list is not just a list of possible traits in general, it's specifically a list of good traits, traits to be aspired. There are a lot of virutes (in fact alone in the example part of the wikipedia article there are over a hundred examples of traits seen as virtues). Now of course it differs. What i see as virtue another might not and what another sees as virtue i might even see as harmful. But in general i would say i have good associations upon hearing the word virtue. (Mostly for i have my own virtues, i mean i don't have a concrete list lying around herer where i put them down, but if asked i think i could list quite a few things i would see as virtues, as good character traits. Of course only in my opinion.)

Duty. Hm. It's a bit more complicated with this one. I think it often is named a virtue, but i'm not so sure. I don't think it is necessarily bad, but i wonder wether it is really 'good' if someone does something just because it's their duty, because someone (or themselves) command them to. I think it would be better if people do the things because they think they are important or it is the right thing to do. Also, as Anthile mentioned, i think this is something that most easily can be abused, by both sides really. Just think of all the War-stories where soldiers just "fulfilled their duty" etc..

Citizenship. A good thing, as it means that the citizen has at least some say in the society he/she lives in (as you could see in walfins post). Although it also is not separable from 'society' and i have some problems with that in general, but that's another topic.

Responsibility, Loyalty... Those are virtues. I don't like to take responsibility, because i know i'll take it seriously and it is something tiring (yet of course important), but if i must (or noone else would in an important situation) then i do my best to fulfil it. (At least i hope i do/try to do). Loyalty is something i do feel, towards my family and friends too (although i don't have much of those, i mean real, close friends). For example it means that despite me not agreeing with my parents' choice of lifestyle (not with everything at least) i do still support them in it. That certainly ties in with my general attitude, specifically the fact that i always try to help people who need assistance, but it goes further with my family (meaning i do more for them than i would do for foreigners).
Of course Loyalty is another of those virtues that can be abused from those who you feel loyal to.

In general i would say, Virtues are traits that have to come frmo the inside, or at least while being shown to a person from the outside, have to be processed and finally out of inner values and conviction found as worthy. I don't think they work when just enforced from the outside. Oftentimes though those lists of virtues are stated from some authority be it mundane or religious/spirtual and meant to have better followers. And while i think the general idea of Paladin is a good one the depiction of Paladins in most fiction i saw/read so far is rather that of an obedient Officer/Knight who also adheres to other virtues, but almost always in the list of his virtues there is Obedience/Duty towards his King/Chief of his order etc. Also those Paladins are depicted as very strict rule- and law-abiders. Imo a better Paladin would be one who is the virtue-driven defender without any King or Chief/Order and whose list of Virtues he adheres to does not contain "Duty".
(You might see my usertitle that is "Paladin of Patience" at the moment, i feel driven to explain that ith Paladin i mean the latter sort, that i just explained. The sort of Defender of the Weak that does that by his own inner virtues and values)
(Also, all "he" above can of course be "she" too )

Ogion

 

[Invoke Ninja's True Power]

Virtue, Duty, Citizenship, Loyalty, Responsibility, etc...

I see them as good qualities, but I also see them used as words to control people.

example: if you don't do your duty or responsibility you aren't a virtuous citizen

I don't know maybe I have the wrong outlook, I see everything as being a control issue. I don't desire a lot of "power" or "control" but when my life is so adversely affected by the power or control of another I want some power and control of my own.

 

[Weliddryn]

Ways to control people- setting up ideals that would make it easier to influence one based on their morality/conscience.

 

[Linada]

They are all very strong and powerful words. They are defined to mean a lot, whether you strongly believe in that stuff or not.
People are keen to be seen as being loyal and virtuous etc. That also means they can be influenced a lot with the 'reward' of being seen as having those qualities. At that point they are very bad words.
They can also be good words. They can inspire people to do some amazing stuff.

In the first case, people act out of guilt, in the second, they act out of their own desires. It seems to me that in general, acting out of guilt or obligation is seen as better than acting to fulfil your own desires. Not allowed to do something good without it being a great burden it seems.

 

[Xel]

I'll expand on this when I can get to a computer rather than use my phone.

Virtue: Virtue is an interesting one. Virtue ethics is typically about the character of the moral agent. It is traits that define moral worth. While the Greeks seem to have specific traits that ate deemed good according to a formula such as the golden mean, I think this can be applied more loosely and reletivistically. A moderate trait becomes an appropriat trait for a certain context. But that doesn't seem to address motivation so I need to think about this more.

Duty: Do I really have duties that are automatic even if I don't like them or consent to having them? To God maybe but then that depends on what one thinks God is.

Loyalty: I am loyal to those who I judge to be loyal to me.

Citizenship: I am an anti-statist, maybe if they respected the citizens more I would think better of the concept.

Responsibility: Seems an empty word these days.

 

[Eljua]

The idea of citizenship is a great way to keep the population from rising up in times of crisis. When linked to the idea of social responsibility, loyalty to your people and duty to your nation, they can be excellent tools for directing a nations anger outwards towards an external threat, evidenced during practically any major war. Virtues are relative from era to era. Major wars have been fought between skilled military leaders, whose strategic and military abilities were considered virtues in their own rights, as were their warmongering ways. In the modern era, striving for peace is considered to be a much greater virtue. When a universally accepted positive virtue comes into conflict with a power that encourages the other types of virtues (duty etc...), the outcome is generally peaceful protest, and more often than not the government tends to silently back down. It even happened in Nazi Germany with the Euthanasia project. Inversely, when a universally accepted positive virtue comes into conflict with a power that enforces the other types of virtues (duty etc...) the outcome tends to be passive resistance, which comes to very little, read Iran recently.

I don't really know if any of that is what you want. If it isn't what you want, let me know what it is you're after.

 

[Invoke Ninja's True Power]

virtue can be many things, more of a description, loyal, duty and citizenship are actions. loyalty and citizenship are passive actions. duty is an act

 

[Eljua]

virtue can be many things, more of a description, loyal, duty and citizenship are actions. loyalty and citizenship are passive actions. duty is an act

A virtue is generally accepted as a positive character trait. Loyalty is a positive character trait, duty is responsibility, and being responsible is a positive character trait. But then again, this is simply semantics, and we all know where we get arguing semantics.

 

[Invoke Ninja's True Power]

this is true, overall these things are positive qualities. But almost anything positive can also be used for negative means as well. Its not a great comparison but in the movie Fight Club they make note of the fact that some of the by-products of soap are also used to make bombs.

 

[Ermine]

I'm hoping for something like a scatter plot here of reactions with this thread, so whatever goes...

* * * * *​

Virtue, Duty, Citizenship, Loyalty, Responsibility, etc...

* * * * *​

How do you all react to these words? What do they make you think of? Do you encounter people who usually talk about these things? Do you use them yourself? Rarely? Often? Readily? Uncomfortably?

Take it away, if you please...
​

These can all be good qualities, but all too often, these are used to manipulate people into following social, religious, and political norms. For example, "if you aren't loyal to your country, you are a bad person".

As for my reaction to the words, they all scream "establishment" to me. For the most part, that would result in a negative, slightly nauseous feeling, though all these qualities are necessary. I don't use any of those words unless I really mean them and am totally willing to back up what I say. For example, with the word "citizenship", I generally wouldn't use the term in the context of country, as I don't take any particular pride in being a citizen of the US. I would use the term when talking about a group or association I voluntarily associate myself with and invest a lot of time in.

I'm also choosy about who I give my loyalty to, and what I'm responsible for, since I treat it as a big commitment.

 

[Invoke Ninja's True Power]

my preferred order of use of those 4 words would be
virtue, loyal, duty, citizenship
+ positive to negative - for me

 

[nickgray]

Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious. I agree with Oscar on that one.

 

[Sapphire Harp]

It's interesting the difference in reactions... It reminds me of an explanation of good and evil I saw once in a Dilbert comic:

Evil is all the things you want to do...
Good is all the things that others tell you to do...

I know there's a lot of abuse and leveraging these kind of concepts towards social control, status quo, political manipulation, and the like... It's rather what I expect when I hear them... but I feel like there's something else, underneath all that. Rarer uses and meanings of the words...

The difference seems to come from whether the obligation is self-prescribed or not... When another person's attempting to impose an obligation, it seems like almost all of us react to it like they are an alien, hideous thing...

Legal, moral, social obligations (family, community, school, country)... seems like everyone's trying to have a say in how you live your life...

I know it's a facet of INTP to reject almost anything that we're told to do... just on principle. Does anyone experience that with these notions of obligation?

Often it feels like a great part of maturation is the struggle to sort the things you want to do and be apart from the things you're told you should want to do and be...

But there is this area between the two... A negotiation between personal desires and obligations... Things that someone -must- do... or else lives, homes, and societies just start falling apart...

But it seems like the most prevalent reaction to necessary things is; "Not me. I don't want to do it - somebody else can deal with it."

(I don't know where I'm trying to go here... I don't have a point to make or a question to be answered... But I want to explore these notions...)
​

 

[Invoke Ninja's True Power]

on the one hand being a good citizen can create a lot of order, less chaos. on the other hand it creates a lot of rivalry between different nations. Some healthy competition can be good but most people seem to take it too far. People get suckered into loyally carrying out duties they don't believe in and accept the common virtues to fit in and for no other reason. Mob Mentality, Mob Rule, Mob That Makes The Most Noise Must Be The Majority So They Win

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

They are just words. To invoke their meanings is good only in moderation for they are so easily abused. They start off as the vocabulary equivalent of panacea but too quickly become the vocabulary equivalent of heroin.

 

[Eljua]

I know there's a lot of abuse and leveraging these kind of concepts towards social control, status quo, political manipulation, and the like... It's rather what I expect when I hear them... but I feel like there's something else, underneath all that. Rarer uses and meanings of the words...

...

Legal, moral, social obligations (family, community, school, country)... seems like everyone's trying to have a say in how you live your life...


​

Oh, don't get me wrong, I know there's a good side to all the concepts mentioned, it's just they are all deeply routed in selfishness. While I'm aware there's several major problems with any social contract theory, it's useful to correlate the feeling it attempts to encaptulate with the intented outcome for social "duty", and that is the self preservation aspect inherent in almost any human being. The idea behind social contract theories is that in return for giving up some of our liberties, such as our freedom to kill whomever we like, we are protected by everyone else from being killed, etc. From there springs the idea of citizenship*, that is, "You are a member of our group, be proud and show your colours", and then evolves from there to become an insular and negative thing.

The difference seems to come from whether the obligation is self-prescribed or not... When another person's attempting to impose an obligation, it seems like almost all of us react to it like they are an alien, hideous thing...

There are certain obligations that are thrust upon us from childhood. It is generally accepted that the care we recieve as children from our parents will be repaid to them later in life when they are unable to look after themselves. A silly expectation, considering that the child has no choice whether or not to be born and accept aid from his parents, but still it's expected.

I know it's a facet of INTP to reject almost anything that we're told to do... just on principle. Does anyone experience that with these notions of obligation?

Personally I tend to reject being forced to do something I didn't ultimately want to do anyway. If someone tells me to do something, I'll do it if I really wanted to do it. If they were forceful about the thing however, I'd end up saying no. It's the same with expectations.

But there is this area between the two... A negotiation between personal desires and obligations... Things that someone -must- do... or else lives, homes, and societies just start falling apart...

But it seems like the most prevalent reaction to necessary things is; "Not me. I don't want to do it - somebody else can deal with it."

Back to the social contract idea, it is posited that at the creation of the literal or metaphorical contract, there is a single individual into whose hand the final decision is placed on matters. This individual becomes the sovereign, and it is on his head that blame ultimately rests. In this day and age, in many countries power is no longer passed down from father to son, and so it is the ambitious few who "represent the majority" as it were. Unfortunately, the ones most likely to end up in power are the ones who are least likely to deserve it, the ambitious, the conservative (small c), the sort of people who, once they've taken control, refuse to rock the boat and change the system that placed them where they were. The sort of people who do deserve to be in power, the ones most likely to do good, are generally the same ones who refuse to work off of the shoulders of others hard work, and so they fall short of the top.

I think I may have gone off on a tangent slightly. Oops.
​

*I'm probably interpreting citizenship slightly differently here than most people, but it works in the context

 

[Tyria]

I'm hoping for something like a scatter plot here of reactions with this thread, so whatever goes...

* * * * *
​

Virtue, Duty, Citizenship, Loyalty, Responsibility, etc...

* * * * *
​

How do you all react to these words? What do they make you think of? Do you encounter people who usually talk about these things? Do you use them yourself? Rarely? Often? Readily? Uncomfortably?

Take it away, if you please...
​

Virtue - an ideal or way of living to live up to

Duty - an obligation to something or someone. To do what is necessary for a common good?

Citizenship - an idea of belonging, but somewhat silly in my own opinion. Countries are lines drawn on a map (though different cultures of people exist). I'm not sure if you can truly belong to a country though; it would mean an that there is an idea of ownership of land or that one is tied to the land.

Loyalty - something there isn't enough of in this world, but I could be mistaken.

Responsibility - I'm pretty big on this. If people claim that they have the right to, then they should follow it up with that they ALSO have the responsibility to do X. The two cannot be seperated in my own way of thinking.