QUESTION: Are intuitives born out of emotional neglect / distance ?

[DIALECTIC]

Are we, intuitives, born out of emotional neglect / distance from our parents (but especially FATHERS !) during childhood ? I have been doing the rounds and compiling data around me and it seems so...

As society (therefore families) become more and more neurotic and UNemotional, we have more and more intuitive people (who refuse to either obey or command, and in a way as a result have to be THEIR OWN FATHERS) hence evolution accelerating, even though at first it seems it's all about chaos, however positive is created, later, out of the negative...

Intuition comes directly from the "Void", it is like a gift / blessing in disguise in order to compensate painful lack of emotions...

Intuitives don't learn so much from what "objectively" exists and therefore everybody (else) agree with, but from failure / errors / lack / pain / the Negative...

"Behold the good and the just! Whom do they hate most? The man who breaks their tables of values, the breaker, the lawbreaker; yet he is the creator.

Companions, the creator seeks, not corpses, not herds and believers. Fellow creators, the creator seeks—those who write new values on new tablets.

Companions, the creator seeks, and fellow harvesters; for everything about him is ripe for the harvest. But he lacks a hundred sickles: so he plucks ears and is annoyed.

Companions, the creator seeks, and such as know how to whet their sickles. Destroyers they will be called, and despisers of good and evil. But they are the harvesters and those who celebrate."

Nietzsche

Any thoughts ?

 

[Architect]

No. I seriously doubt it.

One, intuition or sensation seems to be already there in the womb. My ES nephew was very active. Kicking, punching and moving around. Seemed to be "looking for the action". Where as my IN kid was quietly minding his own business and barely moved around or kicked.

Two, you saw even more of the S versus N characteristics during the first year, and both got plenty of daddy time.

I believe the preferences are hardwired into the lower parts of the brain (the parts other than the neocortex) that have to do with sensory input.

 

[TimeAsylums]

lol ok Freud. Let's go check out orphanages and social service worker centers.

Intuition is not a superpower/gift

tl;dr: no.

 

[Jennywocky]

One, intuition or sensation seems to be already there in the womb. My ES nephew was very active. Kicking, punching and moving around. Seemed to be "looking for the action". Where as my IN kid was quietly minding his own business and barely moved around or kicked.

Interestingly, we had the same experiences with our ES vs IN kids. some factors are very obvious early on.

Two, you saw even more of the S versus N characteristics during the first year, and both got plenty of daddy time.

I believe the preferences are hardwired into the lower parts of the brain (the parts other than the neocortex) that have to do with sensory input.

Yes, choosing a broad outcome (iNtuitiveness) from a single broad environmental factor without even noting how many S kids had emotional troubles + distant parents in childhood seems to be a wrong turn to me.

 

[Cognisant]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zN6MxLYB8hM&desktop_uri=/watch?v=zN6MxLYB8hM

My Dad wasn't half as bad a father to me as I've been a son to him so it's all good

 

[Beat Mango]

Don't you get tired of putting human experience down to a bunch of letters?

 

[Jennywocky]

Don't you get tired of putting human experience down to a bunch of letters?

It makes it so much easier... like doing algebra.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Lol what is this strange blend of pseudoscience and mysticism? It tastes like wrong.

 

[DIALECTIC]

Don't you get tired of putting human experience down to a bunch of letters?

No i love it, it totally changed me as a person and the way i deal with people around me using "letters" to act / react / adapt / anticipate better.

 

[DIALECTIC]

lol ok Freud. Let's go check out orphanages and social service worker centers.

Intuition is not a superpower/gift

tl;dr: no.

You can then review / remember what i said in a decade and see if it holds more / any truth...

“When one has not had a good father, one must create one.”
FRIEDRICH NIETZSCHE


As for intuition, i do think it is an evolutionary "superpower", i guess it depends what you do / did with yours...
... Maybe you would think its a "superpower" if you had been lucky enough to have several peak / religious experiences as i did !

 

[DIALECTIC]

Lol what is this strange blend of pseudoscience and mysticism? It tastes like wrong.

Its called ABDUCTION. You should try it, it´s fun ! :-)

Abduction is a form of logical inference that goes from observation to a hypothesis that accounts for the reliable data (observation) and seeks to explain relevant evidence. The American philosopher Charles Sanders Peirce (1839–1914) first introduced the term as "guessing". Peirce said that to abduce a hypothetical explanation from an observed surprising circumstance is to surmise that may be true because then would be a matter of course. Thus, to abduce from involves determining that is sufficient (or nearly sufficient), but not necessary, for.

In academic writing, deduction, induction and abduction can be read as modes of argumentation:

- Deduction: finding data to support an argument.
- Induction: finding an argument to explain some data.
- Abduction: supplying a warrant that enables us to move from data to argument.

 

[Jennywocky]

It's funny that Nietzche said that about fathers; and yet most of the research / arguments I've run across over the years has people basically trying to argue the opposite... that someone's view of their father colors their view of God [who would be the ultimate in "constructed fathers"].

 

[TimeAsylums]

It's funny that Nietzche said that about fathers; and yet most of the research / arguments I've run across over the years has people basically trying to argue the opposite... that someone's view of their father colors their view of God [who would be the ultimate in "constructed fathers"].

they both suck; ego death >>>

 

[DelusiveNinja]

Its called ABDUCTION. You should try it, it´s fun ! :-)

Well, that explains what I've been doing with my ideas. Now it's time to try cognitively analyzing this abduction process. But before that I would like to mention that there is something I don't like about my inclination to engage in abductive reasoning. In the process of abductive reasoning, it seems like I am jumping to questioning something too quickly. Once I come up with a hypothesis or question I tend to deem it not as a conclusion but something that needs to be answered. I'll make obtaining new information or perspectives the top on my to do list for a period time. But most of the time the answer is right in front of me and I do all of the searching for nothing. Many people, I notice, don't like this type of reasoning but it's so fun getting the annoying questions I have answered or looked at from a different prospective.

Back on topic though, I don't see how an ENFP, for example, could be born out of emotional neglect and distance. However, this (emotional neglect/distance -> intuitives) could be flipped for some introverted intuitive characters to already being an intuitive, thus causing the person to receive emotional neglect or become distant.

 

[Beat Mango]

they both suck; ego death >>>

I don't understand the connection people make between Nietzsche and egoism.

 

[DIALECTIC]

It's funny that Nietzche said that about fathers; and yet most of the research / arguments I've run across over the years has people basically trying to argue the opposite... that someone's view of their father colors their view of God [who would be the ultimate in "constructed fathers"].

Yes i also agree with that: as my relationship with my dad improved over the last few years (because, thru personal introspection and maturity, i can now understand better where he came from and also why he was emotionally distant towards me when i was a child and i totally forgave him; after all history just repeats itself as his dad was just as emotionally distant towards him also), my view on "God" (and life itself) also changed totally proving 100% correct what Sigmund Freud stated:

“The psychoanalysis of individual human beings, however, teaches us with quite special insistence that the god of each of them is formed in the likeness of his father, that his personal relation to God depends on his relation to his father in the flesh and oscillates and changes along with that relation, and that at bottom God is nothing other than an exalted father.”

- Father = transcendence / culture
- Mother = immanence / nature

To me, the goal of life is to have both coexist in symbiosis.

 

[DIALECTIC]

Well, that explains what I've been doing with my ideas. Now it's time to try cognitively analyzing this abduction process. But before that I would like to mention that there is something I don't like about my inclination to engage in abductive reasoning. In the process of abductive reasoning, it seems like I am jumping to questioning something too quickly. Once I come up with a hypothesis or question I tend to deem it not as a conclusion but something that needs to be answered. I'll make obtaining new information or perspectives the top on my to do list for a period time. But most of the time the answer is right in front of me and I do all of the searching for nothing. Many people, I notice, don't like this type of reasoning but it's so fun getting the annoying questions I have answered or looked at from a different prospective.

Without the abduction / retroduction ("elaborate guessing"), there is no real new discoveries possible... Obviously abduction is clearly linked to Ne...

"I consider Retroduction to be the most important kind of reasoning, notwithstanding its very unreliable nature, because it is the only kind of reasoning that opens up new ground. [---] Retroduction gives hints that come straight from our dear and adorable Creator. We ought to labour to cultivate this Divine privilege. It is the side of human intellect that is exposed to influence from on high. With this investigation starts. Having once formed a conjecture, the first thing to be done is to draw Deductions from it and compare them with observations. [---]
So Retroduction comes first and is the least certain and least complex kind of Reasoning."

(Charles Sanders Peirce)

"I have always recognized three different types of reasoning, viz: 1st, Deduction which depends on our confidence in our ability to analyze the meanings of the signs in or by which we think; 2nd, Induction, which depends upon our confidence that a run of one kind of experience will not be changed or cease without some indication before it ceases; and 3rd, Retroduction, or Hypothetic Inference, which depends on our hope, sooner or later, to guess at the conditions under which a given kind of phenomenon will present itself.
Each of these three types occurs in different forms requiring special studies.
From the 1st type to the 3rd the security decreases greatly, while the uberty as greatly increases . . . .
I don't think the adoption of a hypothesis on probation can properly be called induction; and yet it is reasoning and though its security is low, its uberty is high."

(Charles Sanders Peirce)


http://www.helsinki.fi/science/commens/terms/retroduction.html

Back on topic though, I don't see how an ENFP, for example, could be born out of emotional neglect and distance. However, this (emotional neglect/distance -> intuitives) could be flipped for some introverted intuitive characters to already being an intuitive, thus causing the person to receive emotional neglect or become distant.

The only ENFP i personally know, his dad was there "without being there" (emotionally distant), and alcoholic.
One ENTP i personally know, his dad used to beat his mum, then hanged himself when he was 6 months old... Followed by countless "dads" since.
Another ENTP, his dad was alcoholic, used to beat his mum, then left her when he was a small child...

 

[DIALECTIC]

Being devoted to a system / ideology is certainly a way to create an ideal father thru PROJECTING him onto it !
Thru introspection, i can say now it's been my personal experience. And i doubt i am an isolated case. However, some people have deep rooted resistance to look at truth: mid 30's are painful for that very reason, because everything repressed comes out hence the existencial crisis that comes with it.

 

[Perfectly Normal Beast]

i can now understand better where he came from and also why he was emotionally distant towards me when i was a child and i totally forgave him; after all history just repeats itself as his dad was just as emotionally distant towards him also

I always find this reasoning somewhat confusing : something bad happened to an individual therefore it is more forgivable that they inflict the same on another individual.
I think the same is often true of the victims of child abuse - they grow up to abuse themselves.
Surely having experienced such horror would deter one from inflicting it on others since you can understand the effects it has.
At what point does 'adulthood' begin and render one personally responsible for one's actions regardless of one's own traumatic childhood experiences?

 

[Hadoblado]

I always find this reasoning somewhat confusing : something bad happened to an individual therefore it is more forgivable that they inflict the same on another individual.
I think the same is often true of the victims of child abuse - they grow up to abuse themselves.
Surely having experienced such horror would deter one from inflicting it on others since you can understand the effects it has.
At what point does 'adulthood' begin and render one personally responsible for one's actions regardless of one's own traumatic childhood experiences?

It makes it more understandable, and thus forgivable. You remove the personal aspect and see the offender for the victim he is.

It's not a change in the sum, but a change in the interpretation of that sum.

 

[Perfectly Normal Beast]

It makes it more understandable, and thus forgivable. You remove the personal aspect and see the offender for the victim he is.

It's not a change in the sum, but a change in the interpretation of that sum.

Yes, i see that he was a victim, but for me this does not make his victimization of others more forgivable - it shows lack of empathy and inability to learn from (other's) mistakes or one's own experience.

The line between innocent victim and accountable adult must be drawn somewhere or the cycle of abuse/neglect will never end.

 

[Hadoblado]

Yes, i see that he was a victim, but for me this does not make his victimization of others more forgivable - it shows lack of empathy and inability to learn from (other's) mistakes or one's own experience.

The line between innocent victim and accountable adult must be drawn somewhere or the cycle of abuse/neglect will never end.

~was~
He was a victim at the time of the offense, but this doesn't stop him being affected much later in life. The fact that he himself becomes an offender shows that in many ways he is still a victim.

But yes, the cycle needs to stop somewhere. However, one must recognise that not everyone has the potential to succeed through intense adversity.

As for a line between innocent victim and accountable adult, victims are rarely innocent nor are they unaccountable. The line need not be drawn, though it must be acknowledged that victim-hood is not a free pass.

The increase in forgivability as a result of acknowledged victim-hood essentially fills a niche. When figuring out how to treat an offender, why they did something is a big part of that equation, as it affects whether they are likely to do it again. Blame and punishment are blind answers to complex issues, and one should always seek to understand further before allotting them.

 

[Perfectly Normal Beast]

~was~
He was a victim at the time of the offense, but this doesn't stop him being affected much later in life. The fact that he himself becomes an offender shows that in many ways he is still a victim.

I agree but...

But yes, the cycle needs to stop somewhere. However, one must recognise that not everyone has the potential to succeed through intense adversity.

I don't consider not abusing as 'success'. Though an individual may suffer lifelong trauma as a result of abuse i just can't swallow that this makes them less responsible for their own abuses. What really bothers me is that they should know better having had personal experience of it.

As for a line between innocent victim and accountable adult, victims are rarely innocent nor are they unaccountable. The line need not be drawn, though it must be acknowledged that victim-hood is not a free pass.
The increase in forgivability as a result of acknowledged victim-hood essentially fills a niche. When figuring out how to treat an offender, why they did something is a big part of that equation, as it affects whether they are likely to do it again. Blame and punishment are blind answers to complex issues, and one should always seek to understand further before allotting them.

I'm not sure what you mean by stating that victims are rarely innocent/unaccountable - surely that is often the case?

Otherwise i mostly agree with you and have strong (liberal) views on criminal 'justice'. It's just that like i said in my first post regarding neglect/abuse of children, i find 'the same happened to me' a poor defense, although personally i would always acknowledge it when 'judging' someone, i don't like how it is presented as a final statement - to absolve all guilt. Which it is, in my personal experience.

 

[DIALECTIC]

At what point does 'adulthood' begin and render one personally responsible for one's actions regardless of one's own traumatic childhood experiences?

I agree with Pascal (however in my personal case, sadly it was much later than 20... More like 37 or so !):

The life of man is miserably brief. It is usually computed from his first entrance into the world; for my part, I would only compute it from the birth of reason and from the time that man begins to be influenced by it, which does not ordinarily happen before twenty years of age. Before this time, we are children, and a child is not a man.

I think adulthood starts when we finally realize there's more in life than juste me-me-me, money, power, alcohol, food, drugs and sex... Liberty VS Responsability.

 

[Jennywocky]

Yes i also agree with that: as my relationship with my dad improved over the last few years (because, thru personal introspection and maturity, i can now understand better where he came from and also why he was emotionally distant towards me when i was a child and i totally forgave him; after all history just repeats itself as his dad was just as emotionally distant towards him also), my view on "God" (and life itself) also changed totally proving 100% correct what Sigmund Freud stated:

100%? Really?

Not just 99.6%?
Or 91.3%?
Or only 67.2347%?

I can say I've seen a lot of commentary in that direction, but 100%? By interpolation? Really?

 

[DIALECTIC]

100%? Really?

Not just 99.6%?
Or 91.3%?
Or only 67.2347%?

I can say I've seen a lot of commentary in that direction, but 100%? By interpolation? Really?

Do you know MY own worldview better than me ?
Sometimes when you don't have anything sensible to contribute, the best course of action is to stay quiet. That's why i don't post much, plus i now have better things to do with my life. Reading / feeling the attitude emanating from some of the posters here (or elsewhere), i think some should LIVE their own life TO THE FULL (including all the extremes) a bit more instead of post whoring...

 

[Jennywocky]

Do you know MY own worldview better than me ?

No, that's why I'm asking, mostly in humor, but to suggest also throwing around comments about how someone's general statement is 100% right is kind of inaccurate.

Sometimes when you don't have anything sensible to contribute, the best course of action is to stay quiet. That's why i don't post much, plus i now have better things to do with my life. Reading / feeling the attitude emanating from some of the posters here (or elsewhere), i think some should LIVE their own life TO THE FULL (including all the extremes) a bit more instead of post whoring...

Uhhh.... I would hardly call myself a postwhore here. (My 1.98 posts a day is pretty modest, as a matter of fact.) And I was actually making a point -- sorry you can't deal with it in a balanced, rational way.

Did you enjoy your little condescending Fe explosion? If you want to discuss "attitude," I'm all ears.

 

[Perfectly Normal Beast]

I agree with Pascal (however in my personal case, sadly it was much later than 20... More like 37 or so !):

I think adulthood starts when we finally realize there's more in life than juste me-me-me, money, power, alcohol, food, drugs and sex... Liberty VS Responsability.

Everyone is different obviously but i think it has a lot to do with role models and guidance in childhood as well as one's own nature (also obvious i guess).
I do think we (society) don't make the transition very easy. Most of my teenage angst stemmed from my feeling like an adult but being treated like a child. There is a time when we are neither children or adults, when we need the freedom for self-determination but also some guidance.
20 seems old to me, but meh - i know adults in their 50's and older who's thinking/behaviour i consider childish.

 

[Jennywocky]

I do think we (society) don't make the transition very easy. Most of my teenage angst stemmed from my feeling like an adult but being treated like a child. There is a time when we are neither children or adults, when we need the freedom for self-determination but also some guidance.
20 seems old to me, but meh - i know adults in their 50's and older who's thinking/behaviour i consider childish.

Even the same person can have some aspects of them that are adult-like and other aspects that are childish. I remember being much more adult-like than my parents (because they were dealing with their own issues, and I had to keep things together) in a lot of ways, but at the same time there were things I didn't realize were remnants of "how kids view things" into the later parts of my life, that I eventually had to recognize and work through.

 

[walfin]

Doubt it.

Probably influenced by the confluence of a number of factors, including but not limited to genetic ones.

 

[kvothe27]

Yes, i see that he was a victim, but for me this does not make his victimization of others more forgivable - it shows lack of empathy and inability to learn from (other's) mistakes or one's own experience.

The line between innocent victim and accountable adult must be drawn somewhere or the cycle of abuse/neglect will never end.

Agreed. It is a fallacious equivocation between understanding and justification. Just because someone's behavior is understandable doesn't mean it is also justified.

 

[Vion]

Are intuitives born out of emotion?
Are intuitives born out of neglect?
Are intuitives born out of emotional neglect?
Are intuitives born out of emotional distance?
Are intuitives born out of emotional distance from parents?
Are intuitives born out of neurotic and unemotional situations?
Are intuitives born if so the following bullshit holds true:

<insert subjective defintion of intuitive here>

The questions read more like a NOP sled than any informative input. Which Te personality are you my dear? You failed to overwrite the buffers of my memory want to try another dice roll at persuasion?

Try harder next time to force your Ascetic measurements upon me.
1. "to compensate painful lack of emotion": If something does not exist then it feels nothing.
2. "Intuitives don't learn so much from what "objectively" exists": It is not learned if it is not objective in some form.

And to answer your misunderstanding yes negative counterfactual hypothesis can be existentially quantified if one knows the difference between "then" and "than".

Before you reply back to me "doing the rounds and compiling data around me and it seems so" where is it?

 

[Etheri]

No. I seriously doubt it.

One, intuition or sensation seems to be already there in the womb. My ES nephew was very active. Kicking, punching and moving around. Seemed to be "looking for the action". Where as my IN kid was quietly minding his own business and barely moved around or kicked.

I agree that I doubt intuition comes due to emotional neglect. I was in a very rich emotional environment, and felt the need to get out rather than go along with this most of my life.

I do also doubt your claim intuition / sensing is completely set pre-natally and relates to the amount of activity in the womb... Eh. Seems logical, but fairly simplistic and I do think there's more to our mind than the way we're born? o: