Pronounciation - The right and the wrong.

[Thurlor]

I know this shouldn't bother me as much as it does (actually it shouldn't bother me at all), but I'm completely confused when it comes to pronounciation and spelling. This is one of my many pet peeves.

Apparently there is no such thing is incorrect spelling or pronounciation and I just don't understand how things have reached this stage. It's bad enough in regards to standard words but when names are taken into consideration I have to wonder what the point is anymore. Why even bother teaching children any of it. Chicken scratchings would work just as well.

"What does this scribble mean"?

"Anything I want it too".

***********

Accents also bother me. As far as I can tell any accent is a mis-pronounciation, and thus the words are being said wrong. It is bus not 'boos', chips not 'chups', etc.

Words have distinct meanings and convention dictates how they are spelt.

My last name is from a croatian background and when my father's family came to Australia they made the conscious choice to 'phoneticise' it. So Jurisic is now pronounced phonetically as opposed to 'yoo-rish-ich'. Still, all through my schooling life there were twats aplenty that seemed to think it starts with a 'd', or fools that instantly start rabbiting on about 'Jurassic Park'.

Anyway, other than not wanting to be hypocritical, it bothers me enough that I am seriously considering also 'phoneticising' my first name (Michael). Any suggestions on how I would spell it phonetically? I believe it would be 'Mykuhl'.

My ultimate wish would be to see English re-developed as a phonetic language with strict rules for pronounciation regardless of ones location.

 

[Cognisant]

My handwriting is some kind of indecipherable hieroglyphics unless I make a conscious effort to make it readable, and then it's hideous abomination of font that will cause you to cry blood if you look directly at it.

As for pronunciation I've often found myself switching between English-English, Australian-English, US-English and Engrish on the fly as I'm dealing with different people from different backgrounds.

 

[Trebuchet]

Apparently there is no such thing is incorrect spelling or pronounciation and I just don't understand how things have reached this stage.

How did you ever come to that conclusion? Of course there is such a thing as incorrect spelling, and as for pronunciation, that varies with the era, situation, and dialect, but there are incorrect pronunciations, too. I'm pretty sure that when I pronounced the "t" at the end of "rapport", that was wrong.

If you really want to learn more, as opposed to enjoying a good peeve, check out Language Log. After a few months, you will be even more bewildered by the difficulty of linguistics. I certainly feel like I know less than ever. But I am fascinated rather than peeving.

 

[Thurlor]

How did you ever come to that conclusion? Of course there is such a thing as incorrect spelling, and as for pronunciation, that varies with the era, situation, and dialect, but there are incorrect pronunciations, too. I'm pretty sure that when I pronounced the "t" at the end of "rapport", that was wrong.

If you really want to learn more, as opposed to enjoying a good peeve, check out Language Log. After a few months, you will be even more bewildered by the difficulty of linguistics. I certainly feel like I know less than ever. But I am fascinated rather than peeving.

I came to that conclusion based on that fact that kids can pass their English classes despite various mis=spellings and mis-pronounciations. In many parts of England 'th' is replaced with 'f', which would be partially acceptable if the reverse were also true. When a New Zealander speaks it sounds (to me) as though they are saying 'chups' instead of 'chips', which might be acceptable if they also pronounced 'dips' as 'dups' and 'trips' and trups'.

Then there is the craziness of various English names;
Fetherstonhaugh = Fanshaw
Cholmondeley = Chumlee
Niamh = Neve

It's considered such a big 'no no' to point out errors in spelling. Yet why should the 'corrector' feel censored if they aren't the one in error?

 

[Thurlor]

My 11 year old daughter gets high grades in Literacy and Language Development yet she still pronounces ambulance as 'ambleeance', cordial and 'cordigal', bought as 'brought' etc.

All I expect is people to pronounce words as they are spelt, or change their spelling to match their pronounciation. If you really feel the need to say fiddy instead of fifty then spell it as fiddy. If you want to say norf instead of north then spell it as norf. However, don't be surprised if no-one can understand what you are saying.

All of this reminds me of a line from Babylon 5 (I think it was Londo Mollari);

"If you can't say what you mean, you can't mean what you say."

 

[redbaron]

I share this same frustration sometimes, when people treat pronunciation, spelling and grammar as preferential as opposed to useful.

There was a girl at my school with the same last name, who everyone pronounced as, 'jew-ris-ik' and she just looked at me and laughed one day when I corrected the teacher at role call by yelling out, 'Damnit, it's yoo-rish-ich sir!' in a Slavic accent one day. She had no idea that anyone knew how to pronounce her name correctly.

EDIT: you even live in Victoria, Australia.

Is Juricic a common Croatian last name? Otherwise I think I went to school with one of your relatives

 

[NinjaSurfer]

just smoke some weed, all your problems go away

 

[Thurlor]

just smoke some weed, all your problems go away

Maybe my problem is that I smoke too much.

 

[Thurlor]

I share this same frustration sometimes, when people treat pronunciation, spelling and grammar as preferential as opposed to useful.

There was a girl at my school with the same last name, who everyone pronounced as, 'jew-ris-ik' and she just looked at me and laughed one day when I corrected the teacher at role call by yelling out, 'Damnit, it's yoo-rish-ich sir!' in a Slavic accent one day. She had no idea that anyone knew how to pronounce her name correctly.

EDIT: you even live in Victoria, Australia.

Is Juricic a common Croatian last name? Otherwise I think I went to school with one of your relatives

My family actually pronounces it as 'jur-ris-ik'. Apparently it is the 57th most popular surname in Croatia.

If the girl's name is Amanda then she may well be my cousin.

 

[Dapper Dan]

There seem to be a few separate issues here. So, in no particular order...

1. Grades are relative, and that means the bar tends to be fairly low. Your daughter may well be in the top of her class.
2. Expecting people to spell things how they pronounce them is silly and pedantic. Talking and writing are very different forms of communication.
3. Languages evolve. Accents exist because they evolved separately. This "problem" will solve itself as geography becomes less of a barrier.
4. Language exists as a tool for people to understand each other. The definition of a word changes when people's understanding of that word changes. It just takes a while for dictionaries to catch up.
5. "If you can't say what you mean, you can't mean what you say." I find it quite ironic that have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

That's all I've got for now.

 

[Thurlor]

There seem to be a few separate issues here. So, in no particular order...

1. Grades are relative, and that means the bar tends to be fairly low. Your daughter may well be in the top of her class.
2. Expecting people to spell things how they pronounce them is silly and pedantic. Talking and writing are very different forms of communication.
3. Languages evolve. Accents exist because they evolved separately. This "problem" will solve itself as geography becomes less of a barrier.
4. Language exists as a tool for people to understand each other. The definition of a word changes when people's understanding of that word changes. It just takes a while for dictionaries to catch up.
5. "If you can't say what you mean, you can't mean what you say." I find it quite ironic that have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

That's all I've got for now.

1. My daughter IS in the top of her class (excepting Sports). But this isn't an excuse for what I see as a mis-reading of words as opposed to a mere mis-pronounciation. There is no possible way that 'ambleeance' can come from ambulance other than mis-reading. But the teacher won't correct her as most of the other kids and their parents say the same. The same goes for 'bought' becoming 'brought'. She is also seeming to exhibit some of the traits of an INTP, however my ex (her mother) won't let me give her a test to confirm/deny this.
2. In my limited experience with foreign languages I'd come to the conclusion that most were phonetic with English being an exception. Bahasa Indonesia and Croatian are phonetic and for the most part so is Dutch. So, it would be "silly and pedantic" to expect English speakers to do what most other people are able to do? Logic and reason would seem to dictate that a 1:1 ratio for letters and sounds would be a good thing. At least I think so.
3. Yes, hopefully the Global Culture will correct these issues. Also, I'd like to point out that some accents develop due to one group deciding to differentiate themselves from another group. More excuse for the 'us versus them' mentality.
4. Exactly, language exists as a tool to foster understanding, yet how can there be understanding when there is so much confusion.
5. I suppose it doesn't help that I got the quote wrong. Here's the actual quote;

"In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything."

– Durano, 2261
The last bit of the quote is really quite important I suppose. Basically it all means don't avoid details or use euphemisms if you want to avoid misunderstandings.

 

[redbaron]

My family actually pronounces it as 'jur-ris-ik'. Apparently it is the 57th most popular surname in Croatia.

If the girl's name is Amanda then she may well be my cousin.

Her name was Tamara, so I guess not.

Oh well, was worth asking.

 

[Thurlor]

Her name was Tamara, so I guess not.

Oh well, was worth asking.

I have no knowledge of any relatives named Tamara. I knew there were other Jurisics around. I have actually found someone else from the other side of the world with the same birthdate and first, middle and last name.

 

[Polaris]

Speaking of accents, we had a woman come into the store the other day asking if we had any more "veentiu jeekkuts".

My boss and I just stood there staring at her. It turned out she was (obviously) Kiwi (New Zealander for the non-Australians), and she was asking for a Venturer jacket.

She then proceeded: "wheendu reeckun yee'll bu geettun theem unn?"

-More staring silence......

Translation: When do you reckon you'll be getting them in?

As a non-native English speaker living in Australia, it has taken me years to get used to the Australian quickly spoken slurring of words (I had a teacher at primary school in my native country who rather enthusiastically taught us "British Received Pronunciation"....), however, heavy Kiwi-accents still leave me dumbfounded, and even other Australians it seems....

I also had this one: "Whurrs yer bearslayers?"

Our what?

*stares dumbfounded*

-"Bear-Slayers."

-Uh, uhm.....you mean....bear.....uhm....

*feels stupid*

-"Y'no the laarun' system for cold weather and that....."

-Ah, BASE-LAYERS!

*breathes sigh of relief*

Yes, the person was Irish.

 

[Dapper Dan]

Speaking of accents, we had a woman come into the store the other day asking if we had any more "veentiu jeekkuts".

My boss and I just stood there staring at her. It turned out she was (obviously) Kiwi (New Zealander for the non-Australians), and she was asking for a Venturer jacket.

She then proceeded: "wheendu reeckun yee'll bu geettun theem unn?"

-More staring silence......

Translation: When do you reckon you'll be getting them in?

As a non-native English speaker living in Australia, it has taken me years to get used to the Australian quickly spoken slurring of words (I had a teacher at primary school in my native country who rather enthusiastically taught us "British Received Pronunciation"....), however, heavy Kiwi-accents still leave me dumbfounded, and even other Australians it seems....

I also had this one: "Whurrs yer bearslayers?"

Our what?

*stares dumbfounded*

-"Bear-Slayers."

-Uh, uhm.....you mean....bear.....uhm....

*feels stupid*

-"Y'no the laarun' system for cold weather and that....."

-Ah, BASE-LAYERS!

*breathes sigh of relief*

Yes, the person was Irish.

My honest recommendation? Watch as much of the Lord of the Rings bonus features as possible.

 

[pjoa09]

You must've hated "The Dark Knight Rises". Couldn't understand a damn thing Bane was saying.

 

[NinjaSurfer]

Ooh I want a Bear Slayer that sounds kewl.

 

[Bucca]

Aunt is an interesting word. "Ant", but yet you would not pronounce taunt like "tant".

 

[Polaris]

My honest recommendation? Watch as much of the Lord of the Rings bonus features as possible.

I used to own the whole box-set....used to

It obviously didn't help. I'm actually in the process of saving for a new LOTR box-set....

It is interesting when you think about how words bring up immediate and almost involuntary associations, it is such a brain-washed state of being. When the woman said "veentir jeekits", I immediately thought she was saying vintage-jacket. The result was my brain going into this meta-dimension where I imagined said woman in some vintage clothing shop, looking at this red faux-leather 80's style jacket with huge shoulder pads....all that going through my mind whilst staring dumbfounded at her...

You must've hated "The Dark Knight Rises". Couldn't understand a damn thing Bane was saying.

I am curious now. I haven't seen it yet. You made me watch the preview. He's wearing a mask, goddammit....and speaking.....Irish? That's just impossible to decipher

I have often thought of inventing some sort of translation (like virtual subtitles) device that can be taken to movie theatres, as I seem to be struggling with the many variants of the English language.

Ooh I want a Bear Slayer that sounds kewl.

The funny thing is that I also had the same involuntary meta-dimension experience with this guy...I was imagining him in some Canadian pine forest in a red lumber jacket, swinging a machete at this huge bear.....meanwhile trying to rationalise why bear-slayers would not be a relevant term in the setting of an Australian outdoor-equipment store (Australia has no bears.....obviously).

It is tricky being an intuitive perceiving person in situations like these. The Ne goes amok...and P just accelerates the whole experience. A guy came in the other day and said "Just after payday".

I said, "Payday?"

Through my mind was this whole scenario where I imagined this guy taking the piss because I asked him if I could be of assistance, and he perhaps had a very sarcastic moment where he told me it would be better after payday.



He meant 'Peter'. Peter is the name of my boss.

Very broad Aussie accent.

 

[~~~]

link gives some insight into the different spelling for words.

 

[Kuu]

I know this shouldn't bother me as much as it does (actually it shouldn't bother me at all), but I'm completely confused when it comes to pronounciation and spelling. This is one of my many pet peeves.

Apparently there is no such thing is incorrect spelling or pronounciation and I just don't understand how things have reached this stage. It's bad enough in regards to standard words but when names are taken into consideration I have to wonder what the point is anymore. Why even bother teaching children any of it. Chicken scratchings would work just as well.

"What does this scribble mean"?

"Anything I want it too".

***********

Accents also bother me. As far as I can tell any accent is a mis-pronounciation, and thus the words are being said wrong. It is bus not 'boos', chips not 'chups', etc.

Words have distinct meanings and convention dictates how they are spelt.

My last name is from a croatian background and when my father's family came to Australia they made the conscious choice to 'phoneticise' it. So Jurisic is now pronounced phonetically as opposed to 'yoo-rish-ich'. Still, all through my schooling life there were twats aplenty that seemed to think it starts with a 'd', or fools that instantly start rabbiting on about 'Jurassic Park'.

Anyway, other than not wanting to be hypocritical, it bothers me enough that I am seriously considering also 'phoneticising' my first name (Michael). Any suggestions on how I would spell it phonetically? I believe it would be 'Mykuhl'.

My ultimate wish would be to see English re-developed as a phonetic language with strict rules for pronounciation regardless of ones location.

OH. MY. CTHULHU.

There are others out there!

The extreme inconsistencies of English are one of my pet peeves too. English is not my first language and that gives one more perspective on just how fucked up it is compared to others in this regard....

On the positive side, one has to grant it to the latin alphabet for being so simple to learn and its characters so distinct that it can be extremely distorted and still be readable. Though its use is hardly exclusive to English.

One day I hope a constructed phonetic language is developed and adopted globally.

 

[Thurlor]

OH. MY. CTHULHU.

There are others out there!

The extreme inconsistencies of English are one of my pet peeves too. English is not my first language and that gives one more perspective on just how fucked up it is compared to others in this regard....

On the positive side, one has to grant it to the latin alphabet for being so simple to learn and its characters so distinct that it can be extremely distorted and still be readable. Though its use is hardly exclusive to English.

One day I hope a constructed phonetic language is developed and adopted globally.

This is a dream of mine as well. I've actually given it some thought (I am an INTP after all). The grandest scheme I have come up with is the development of a phonetic alphabet that covers every single sound that humans make in language as well as maybe a few gestures and emotions.

 

[Obrens]

I for one, don't know of a single orthography worse than English. And I know many. My mother tongue is Serbian, and Serbian Cyrillic is just about as perfect as a writing system gets, with Serbo-Croatian Latin being very close behind. Other South Slavic (Bulgarian, Macedonian, Slovene), Italian, Czecho-Slovak, German and Greek are all nice, logical, simple-enough systems. While Polish, Russian, French, Ukrainian and Belorussian are all a ugly, inconsistent and/or too complicated. But none of them are even coming close to how English writing is ugly, inconsistent and complicated.

 

[Obrens]

This is a dream of mine as well. I've actually given it some thought (I am an INTP after all). The grandest scheme I have come up with is the development of a phonetic alphabet that covers every single sound that humans make in language as well as maybe a few gestures and emotions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA ?
I've also thought about how cool it might be if languages started using IPA instead of their traditional orthography. Of course, it would have to ignore allophones and thus be phonemic instead of phonetic. But why not?

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

Jurassic Park was an awesome movie.

 

[Kuu]

21 REASONS WHY ENGLISH SUCKS.

One of the things that drives me crazy is when people say "drawring" instead of "drawing". For some reason, it in particular makes me want to cut off their tongue with a rusty spoon.

When I started to learn japanese, I loved the consistency of hiragana/katakana, and the fact that they have a syllabary just for foreign words to prevent the contamination that so plagues English is just awesome. Of course the use of kanji complicates everything , but one could decide to write everything without kanji and it would still make sense (after WW2 there was a plan to abolish kanji in fact... some people still advocate it), in particular if they implemented the use of spaces to separate words.

I haven't studied it at all but the Korean alphabet was deliberately constructed and seems rather interesting to me. Unlike the japanese, the koreans decided to fully abandon the chinese characters in favor of a wholly new writing system, much to their benefit.

The IPA I think is a bit too complex to be practical, but maybe with education... Also, its use of Latin-derived symbols would probably be mighty confusing for a large segment of the population. This is particularly notable today for English speakers learning other romance languages (since English is so fucked up), they have to unlearn the symbol-sound relationships. In any case, I also don't think that reforming existing languages would be so easy, I would prefer if a language was constructed from scratch, though that might prove to be too hard to get going (as most constructed languages have). Sometimes I think the internet could serve as the vehicle through which this language could grow and spread. An international language for the inter(national)-net(work). I find this idea fascinating...


EDIT: In the comments from that link I found this gem:

Spoiler

The Chaos
By G. Nolst Trenite, a.k.a. Charivarius

Dearest creature in creation,
Study English pronunciation.
I will teach you in my verse
Sounds like corpse, corps, horse, and worse.
I will keep you, Suzy, busy,
Make your head with heat grow dizzy.
Tear in eye, your dress will tear.
So shall I! Oh hear my prayer.

Just compare heart, beard, and heard,
Dies and diet, lord and word,
Sword and sward, retain and Britain.
(Mind the latter, how it's written.)
Now I surely will not plague you
With such words as plaque and ague.
But be careful how you speak:
Say break and steak, but bleak and streak;
Cloven, oven, how and low,
Script, receipt, show, poem, and toe.

Hear me say, devoid of trickery,
Daughter, laughter, and Terpsichore,
Typhoid, measles, topsails, aisles,
Exiles, similes, and reviles;
Scholar, vicar, and cigar,
Solar, mica, war and far;
One, anemone, Balmoral,
Kitchen, lichen, laundry, laurel;
Gertrude, German, wind and mind,
Scene, Melpomene, mankind.

Billet does not rhyme with ballet,
Bouquet, wallet, mallet, chalet.
Blood and flood are not like food,
Nor is mould like should and would.
Viscous, viscount, load and broad,
Toward, to forward, to reward.
And your pronunciation's OK
When you correctly say croquet,
Rounded, wounded, grieve and sieve,
Friend and fiend, alive and live.

Ivy, privy, famous; clamour
And enamour rhyme with hammer.
River, rival, tomb, bomb, comb,
Doll and roll and some and home.
Stranger does not rhyme with anger,
Neither does devour with clangour.
Souls but foul, haunt but aunt,
Font, front, wont, want, grand, and grant,
Shoes, goes, does. Now first say finger,
And then singer, ginger, linger,
Real, zeal, mauve, gauze, gouge and gauge,
Marriage, foliage, mirage, and age.

Query does not rhyme with very,
Nor does fury sound like bury.
Dost, lost, post and doth, cloth, loth.
Job, nob, bosom, transom, oath.
Though the differences seem little,
We say actual but victual.
Refer does not rhyme with deafer.
Foeffer does, and zephyr, heifer.
Mint, pint, senate and sedate;
Dull, bull, and George ate late.
Scenic, Arabic, Pacific,
Science, conscience, scientific.

Liberty, library, heave and heaven,
Rachel, ache, moustache, eleven.
We say hallowed, but allowed,
People, leopard, towed, but vowed.
Mark the differences, moreover,
Between mover, cover, clover;
Leeches, breeches, wise, precise,
Chalice, but police and lice;
Camel, constable, unstable,
Principle, disciple, label.

Petal, panel, and canal,
Wait, surprise, plait, promise, pal.
Worm and storm, chaise, chaos, chair,
Senator, spectator, mayor.
Tour, but our and succour, four.
Gas, alas, and Arkansas.
Sea, idea, Korea, area,
Psalm, Maria, but malaria.
Youth, south, southern, cleanse and clean.
Doctrine, turpentine, marine.

Compare alien with Italian,
Dandelion and battalion.
Sally with ally, yea, ye,
Eye, I, ay, aye, whey, and key.
Say aver, but ever, fever,
Neither, leisure, skein, deceiver.
Heron, granary, canary.
Crevice and device and aerie.

Face, but preface, not efface.
Phlegm, phlegmatic, ass, glass, bass.
Large, but target, gin, give, verging,
Ought, out, joust and scour, scourging.
Ear, but earn and wear and tear
Do not rhyme with here but ere.
Seven is right, but so is even,
Hyphen, roughen, nephew Stephen,
Monkey, donkey, Turk and jerk,
Ask, grasp, wasp, and cork and work.

Pronunciation -- think of Psyche!
Is a paling stout and spikey?
Won't it make you lose your wits,
Writing groats and saying grits?
It's a dark abyss or tunnel:
Strewn with stones, stowed, solace, gunwale,
Islington and Isle of Wight,
Housewife, verdict and indict.

Finally, which rhymes with enough --
Though, through, plough, or dough, or cough?
Hiccough has the sound of cup.
My advice is to give up!!!

EDIT 2: Which is apparently not the same as this. Well, more ammunition against the english language ^_^

 

[Thurlor]

Now I am stuck reading about Hangul and considering the possibility of learning Korean.