Posts split from CT| The Series

[Lyra]

I feel like ESFJ or ISTJ should be made next. It bothers me that so many of these typing systems exhibit such a skewed emphasis on intuitives. Pod'Lair is especially guilty. According to Pod'LAir, everyone is either an INFJ, INTP, or ENFP.

That's actually completely false. Pod'Lair's position is that individual 'bubbles', or social groupings, tend to consist of a highly concentrated mass of a very limited number of configurations. The reason for so many people being read as intuitives is that both typology-related and public-facing/acting/celebrity bubbles are in fact heavily intuitive dominated.

If you look at, for example, finance or politics, it's a very different story. Goldman Sachs, along with all other major investment banks, consists almost entirely of Vai'xyy (SiFe/ISFJ correlate) with a few tag-a-long Vai-heavy Zai'nyy (TiNe/INTP correlate) and some Zyy'nai (TeNi/ENTJ correlates). Top-tier tennis is, bizarrely enough, absolutely full of Zai'vyy (TiSe/ISTP correlate). It's the same story through many different bubbles-- one or two configurations tend to dominate, with a few somewhat represented configs around and the always-present possibility of stray 'exotic' configurations. Adult humanity's social groupings seem to be very, very highly specialised and differentiated in terms of cognitive configuration.

The interesting thing is that many people seem to have an inherent 'typological' desire. They sense differences and patterns and read different 'types' within their actually energetically very limited/consistent social groupings. They fail to see the energetic similarity or the actual relation to the rest of humanity, or to read just how the core cognitive similarities are being differently used by different riffs of that config. within their social groupings.

Typology related groupings are almost entirely Nai'xyy, Nyy'xai, Xai'nyy, and Zai'nyy (NiFe/NeFi/FiNe/TiNe). It's just how it is. INTPforum is full of 'TiNe' and 'NiFe', with a handful of Ne leads around. It's just what it is. The interesting thing is that this pattern of thinking there's fudamental typological difference, intra-grouping, to a greater extent than there is is common to our society generally.

A few more interesting things:
-Nai'xyy/Vai'xyy (NiFe/SiFe) are by far the most dominant configs in terms of society's direction and social structures, and their source momentum is diametrically opposed. They super-modulate one another, and tend to want, explicitly or implicitly, to void the other's influence. They are like the Promethean/catalytic and conservative/holding-together vanguard and rearguard of humanity. In the long run, Fe/Xez using 'hunters' (P'Ls term for directive perception leads) tend to be far more dominant than 'fighters' (P'L's term for directive discernment leads: Te/Fe leads) or any other configs.
-Vai can look really creepy an reptilian when it goes dark. There's something to the whole 'reptilian illuminati' thing, although it's not what people think. It's just a form Si takes that is read, accurately by the standards of the ruled and scared, as very fucking scary and mutated.
-Si/Vai can also look hugely reliable. It's all about detail/evokes trust. Hence part of why big-money/big-government/aristocracy tend to pool SiFe. Ni is syncopated/revolutionary in rhythm, and can build empires in a flash (e.g. Hitler, Zuckerberg) but has a hell of a lot of precedent and pooled power to fight. Given that Ni is divergent or revolutionary, and goes on individually perceived principle, and Si is about what is, Si has a far higher chance of just hooking into whatever power structures are already around and successfully pooling resources within them. I expect that at some point in humanity's evolutionary cycle this pooling of dominance might change, leaving Ne-light riffs of SiFe totally disempowered, and that this has been the case in certain historical situations.
-Some configs are just very rarely represented except on, etc, reality shows. Vai'zyy, for example, seem to be just considered 'too mundane'. You also very rarely get configs like Zyy'vai (TeSi) showing up either on youtube or anywhere except a very limited kind of media outlet.
-Academic Philosophy if almost entirely Zai'nyy (TiNe) nowadays, but philosophy undergraduates are largely Nai'xyy (NiFe). Philosophy seems to attract the Ni big picture urge, but modern academic philosophy is largely highly technical conceptual razor-slicing of endless labyrinthine doom.

Finally, I think that the urge of people to see one another, intra-grouping, as radically different actually has something to it. I think people intra-grouping are both very different, as souls and people, and also far more similar in kind/energetic-makeup than they realise. This also applies to families, who follow the same config. concentration pattern. My take on this is that it tells us something about both the importance and the explanatory limits of the cognitive configuration phenomenon, which is fundamental and basic knowledge, but which can't causally explain or determine the right path with regards to many fundamental life choices or personality quirks. The universe has a whole other level of soul and difference and infinite variation.

 

[Obsidian]

Re: Type Reading | Series

@CooleyDudey, they may have already done an S, but they haven't done an SJ. If you want to see what an ENTP looks like, you can easily just search for "ENTP" on youtube. You will find plenty of examples. In my opinion, most of the people who label themselves ENTP do so accurately. And a few ENTPs have already been posted in this thread.

@Lyra, the HuntingHeroes channel seems to label just about everyone as an INFJ or an ENFP. I even saw them label one self-described ESTP as an INFJ, with a supposed inferior fetish or something. On the 50-person test, the vast majority seemed to turn out to be intuitives. I don't doubt your bubble theory, at least to an extent. But I think your group still has a bias. Intuitives are supposed to be more rare, especially INFJs. There is no reason why all youtubers would be intuitive. I just think everyone who invents a sight-reading system needs to keep in mind to look for sensors. Personally, I try to assume everyone is a sensor unless I can come up with a significant reason to believe otherwise.

 

[Fukyo]

Re: Type Reading | Series

INTPforum is full of 'TiNe' and 'NiFe', with a handful of Ne leads around.

Who are the Zai'Nyy? (other than Auburn and Architect)

 

[Lyra]

Re: Type Reading | Series

@CooleyDudey, they may have already done an S, but they haven't done an SJ. If you want to see what an ENTP looks like, you can easily just search for "ENTP" on youtube. You will find plenty of examples. In my opinion, most of the people who label themselves ENTP do so accurately. And a few ENTPs have already been posted in this thread.

@Lyra, the HuntingHeroes channel seems to label just about everyone as an INFJ or an ENFP. I even saw them label one self-described ESTP as an INFJ, with a supposed inferior fetish or something. On the 50-person test, the vast majority seemed to turn out to be intuitives. I don't doubt your bubble theory, at least to an extent. But I think your group still has a bias. Intuitives are supposed to be more rare, especially INFJs. There is no reason why all youtubers would be intuitive. I just think everyone who invents a sight-reading system needs to keep in mind to look for sensors. Personally, I try to assume everyone is a sensor unless I can come up with a significant reason to believe otherwise.

Intuitives aren't actually meant to be rare except by MBTI test statistics, which represent what people want to be/think is the right answer as much as anything else.

The HHH channel's activity was largely and explicitly directed at 'Typology Town', as it was called in the videos, hence your observation. Pod'Lair also never claimed that the people represented in their quizzes were an accurate sampling of the population generally.

Your assumption that everybody is a sensor before contrary information is probably throwing your accuracy quite a lot. Reading really works best when you try to move past those kind of expectations and notice what's going on moment by moment.

 

[Lyra]

Re: Type Reading | Series

Who are the Zai'Nyy? (other than Auburn and Architect)

Off the top of my head, BigApplePi (I suspect), PheonixRising, possibly EditorOne, joal0503 (I suspect), Cryptonia (I suspect), Glovehead (I suspect), a few others. Text reads are rarely certain, but 'bubble' reading can actually work quite accurately without specific configurations identified for individuals. It's what Pod'Lair would call a 5th gear impression*. In INTPf's case though IIRC the data does largely back this up. I can check for records or do some reads on the video thread and get back to you with more details, perhaps.

*All the groupings in my long post were done by individual reads as well. Pod'Lair has read basically everybody on the Goldman Sachs website, for example (about 30 individuals from its leadership, and they've also done reads at finance conventions by JPMorgan), or in top rankings of tennis.

 

[Fukyo]

Re: Type Reading | Series

In INTPf's case though IIRC the data does largely back this up. I can check for records or do some reads on the video thread and get back to you with more details, perhaps.

While not strictly necessary, I wouldn't mind it. Generally speaking, curious what your impressions of members' mojo/type are.

 

[Duxwing]

Re: Type Reading | Series

-Academic Philosophy if almost entirely Zai'nyy (TiNe) nowadays, but philosophy undergraduates are largely Nai'xyy (NiFe). Philosophy seems to attract the Ni big picture urge, but modern academic philosophy is largely highly technical conceptual razor-slicing of endless labyrinthine doom.

Awwwww yeaaaaah. There's nothing like cutting someone's argument to bits by splitting the finest logical hairs. It feels sooooo gooood, like cracking every joint in your body.

-Duxwing

 

[Lyra]

Re: Type Reading | Series

While not strictly necessary, I wouldn't mind it. Generally speaking, curious what your impressions of members' mojo/type are.

Sounds interesting, so sure.

 

[cheese]

Re: Type Reading | Series

@Lyra

This also applies to families, who follow the same config. concentration pattern.

Just checking I'm understanding this correctly - does this mean type runs in families? To what extent? Whole configurations, or just particular aspects (eg objective intuitive lead perceiver)?

This is really interesting. 3 Olsen sisters were read as Zai'nyy, which I thought fairly remarkable, and the twins were fraternal, iirc - perhaps type is related to hormones in the womb? It'd be interesting if we find siblings closer in type than sibling-parents.
---[Speaking in suspected type]

Spoiler

This is true in my family, and our type is more similar to our mother than our father in that we actually share functions and 'orientations' [xNFP to us xNTPs]. On the other hand, he's an ENTJ which is similar to us in a different way. All of us try to weigh down his Ni with Si, and at the same time we validate each other's T against the onslaught of Fi. And my siblings understood/validated my Ti defenses during Ni and Ne sweep-discipline/judgements as a kid. Some of this was immediately clear when I first got into MBTI, and some became more obvious when I learnt more about Ni (which I simply knew as 'that gleam' in dad's eye as well as his conviction that he knew what was coming based on what seemed to us very scant evidence) and its interaction with Si.

I also suspect the family in my generation are all xNTPs, or at least Ti-Fe users - different sides of the family. (So perhaps it was something in the water. ) This was something I started realising when I had a deeper understanding of Ti, and even more after we were introduced to podlair.

It's also interesting how those of the same type can try to modulate each other, *partly out of fear of exhibiting certain function-derived tendencies that they see in the other and wouldn't want in themselves. (Essentially, their self-modulation spills over into modulation of the other person, I suppose.) I've got a weakly-suspected Ne-dom couple, with the wife taking a very hardline Si-Fe antagonistic approach, and I suspect it's simply from the exaggerated gender roles they've inherited as well the problems of real-life responsibilities. Another reason to doubt the preponderance of reported xSFJ mothers/N fathers on this forum.

*This fits with my experience of heavy Ti types trying to modulate away any traces of apparent certainty or the Articulator in other heavy Ti types they see, and is actually what got me thinking my generation might all be the same type (recognised the [seemingly] predictable and transparent processes I saw - very polite and highly socialised, but also traceable, since that processor is always running in the background of my head as well, and spouting out the same responses to whatever I say, in the same pattern).

 

[Lyra]

Re: Type Reading | Series

Whole configurations, or just particular aspects (eg objective intuitive lead perceiver)?

Both. Whole configs (Nai'xyy fathers will often have Nai'xyy sons, who will often see very little of themselves in their fathers), but also close social alchemies. Mostly you get interpretive and literal families. When there is crossover, it's usually by some other close alchemy. i.e. You'll get all-Fe/Xyy with NiFe and FeSi.

Suffice to say that the entire 'inuitive' typology community's belief that their parents or least favorite siblings are SJs is false.

Edit: on your point about siblings vs. parents, not sure yet, but it looks like you quite often get inspirational pairings between siblings, so they might superficially be 'more' different than between fathers/sons mothers/daughters etc. You also get lots of inverse pairings: Xai'nyy mothers and Nyy'xai daughters, etc.

 

[Obsidian]

Re: Type Reading | Series

Notice how all his examples involve INFJ or ENFP. That is what I would like to avoid.

 

[Lyra]

Re: Type Reading | Series

Notice how all his examples involve INFJ or ENFP. That is what I would like to avoid.

Sure, and I actually agree with you on that. I'd say the emphasis of the output has been like that (for a number of reasons, some of which I explained in previous posts), but that, IME and IMO, the model itself and how it applies when you really get into it in your own life doesn't work like that at all. It's professedly very anti any kind of typological bigotry, and in practice tends towards a unified and interlinking idea of how the functional whole that is the human psyche/'tribe' works. In fact, it states that, given the many momentum/modulation/experiential 'alchemies', no-one can really develop and learn about themselves to the fullest without appreciating and working with the entire spectrum of configs. In the modern world, with its very high degree of profession/interest/nuclear-family/group-specific differentiation and config concentration, this can be especially challenging.

Being a NiFe myself who's in close relationships with many NeFi, though, those two configs are of particular relevance. And interpretives, because of the change flow phenomenon*, really are the first target audience of any young model in this field. But I completely agree with your sentiment and with the need not to get stuck on them. I actually find Vai'xyy (SiFe corellates) and Zyy configs (Te lead corellates) fascinating, and have spent the past three weeks almost exclusively studying and reading them.

*The Change Flow theory models, roughly, social innovation and conservation, with the configs with an interperetive power as source being in the 'first' of the four change waves, those with one as second being in the 'second', and so on. Configs with a directive interpretive power (Nai/Ni) as source are slightly further towards the 'change' than 'conservation' end within their class than those with an adaptive one (Nyy/Ne), because they are typically the first cause/seed/driving-force within their change-flow stage. That said, it's often more a case of one or a few Ni users generating a change which is aided and expanded by some Nyy users, and then the rest of the class becoming relevant. Note that all configs have a literal perception function/power of the opposite subjective/objective orientation and of the opposite literal/interpretive orientation at precisely the inverse position with their consious ordering to their interpretive power. For example, Zai'vyy/TiSe have Nai/Ni as the third power/function in their conscious hierarchy. And are thus third in the four change flow waves.

**One thing I would like to explore more is the difference between adaptives (people with Xyy/Zyy Fe/Te as modulation rather than momentum, or in the lower two slots of their four conscious functions) with a directive interpretive power (Ni) as modulation and directives with an adaptive interpretive power (Nyy as modulation). I myself am not quite clear how this dynamic plays out in practice yet, in terms of jumping onto changes versus merely being taken along with the current.

***I really don't find 'INFJ/ENFP' type naming helpful. NiFe/NeFi is much better.

 

[Brontosaurie]

Re: Type Reading | Series

could someone care to explain why pod lair uses fantasy names reminiscent of Avatar?

 

[Obsidian]

Re: Type Reading | Series

I tried getting into Pod'Lair. For me, the main problems were as follows:

1) The Pod'Lair terminology is idiotic

2) Pod'Lair completely rips off Jung, while giving him virtually no credit

3) Pod'Lair seems strongly biased in favor of typing people as intuitives

4) Pod'Lair does not seem to care whatsoever about whether empirical data (i.e., behaviors) actually correlate with their visual patterns. The patterns are seen as proof in themselves.

5) Pod'Lair's emphasis on MBTI dichotomies was a little troubling. For example, they lump all Feelers together by suggesting that strong smiles indicate Feeling (over Thinking). In contrast, I would submit that if anything, the type of smile would more likely indicate Fe versus Fi. They also have specific clues for MBTI Judgers versus Perceivers.

I also found the pagan religious aspect of it somewhat annoying. But I could overlook that if I considered it a useful system.

 

[Fukyo]

Re: Type Reading | Series

This thread isn't about the merits of Pod'lair. There are other threads where you can bring up Pod'lair's terminology, presentation, whatever.

 

[snafupants]

Re: Type Reading | Series

I tried getting into Pod'Lair. For me, the main problems were as follows:

1) The Pod'Lair terminology is idiotic

2) Pod'Lair completely rips off Jung, while giving him virtually no credit

3) Pod'Lair seems strongly biased in favor of typing people as intuitives

4) Pod'Lair does not seem to care whatsoever about whether empirical data (i.e., behaviors) actually correlate with their visual patterns. The patterns are seen as proof in themselves.

5) Pod'Lair's emphasis on MBTI dichotomies was a little troubling. For example, they lump all Feelers together by suggesting that strong smiles indicate Feeling (over Thinking). In contrast, I would submit that if anything, the type of smile would more likely indicate Fe versus Fi. They also have specific clues for MBTI Judgers versus Perceivers.

I also found the pagan religious aspect of it somewhat annoying. But I could overlook that if I considered it a useful system.

Number four might allude to construct validity, which is a demerit for most physiognomy readers. At least they could bolster criterion validity by correlating their visual readings to MBTI or JCF results. I suggested such but they balked. Without statistics or numbers to buttress their claims, Podlair is essentially free-floating and conjectural. It's basically dressed-up opinion a la continental philosophy.

 

[snafupants]

Re: Type Reading | Series

This thread isn't about the merits of Pod'lair. There are other threads where you can bring up Pod'lair's terminology, presentation, whatever.

To be fair, I did compare CT to PL and discuss the drawbacks of physiognomy but whatever.

 

[Montresor]

Re: Type Reading | Series

I'm not interested in drama with Auburn's girlfriend.

Off the record, that would make him one lucky bastard.

 

[PhoenixRising]

Re: Type Reading | Series

Off the record, that would make him one lucky bastard.

Why? because I stand up for my soulmate?

 

[Montresor]

Re: Type Reading | Series

Why? because I stand up for my soulmate?

Yes, that is exactly why.

 

[Lyra]

Re: Type Reading | Series

It's good to hear you will be providing objective evidence to back your claims. However I will still be wary of it, since it is likely in writing, you could modify it to make it look like anything you wanted.

I'm not trying to start drama with you. I just want you to acknowledge that your point of view isn't more important than anyone else's on here, nor is it more or less valid (even with evidence).

A point of view is a point of view.

And hey, even if Auburn did originally get some ideas from Pod'lair (which it wouldn't be many if he did).. So what. People inspire each other. According to you, you contributed quite a bit to the original concept, perhaps it was your input specifically that tinged CT with Pod'lair's ideology.

So now you're back-pedaling and saying it doesn't matter even if I prove specifically what you're asserting couldn't be true, with regards to a point I never even presented as central to Auburn's incompetence in the first place? And demanding that I acknowledge this or that epistemological position (equality of viewpoint, regardless of evidence, etc.)?

Who the fuck are you? I am not interested in your bullshit drama or your attempts to protect your boyfriend's credibility and assure everyone what a wonderful and honest soul he is. I could produce witnesses of my own in that regard (I have soulmates too!), but frankly this is all just too much bullshit. Go talk to somebody else and leave me to discuss what I'm actually interested in, and at some point I'll deal with this bs by producing the facts and leaving others to make their conclusions.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Re: Type Reading | Series

I'll deal with this bs by producing the facts and leaving others to make their conclusions.

Your issues here seem no different from the ones you were having with Auburn months ago on the other site; you can't sit there and act as if you have loftier pursuits while you continue to insert Pod'Lair ideology and your personal agenda everywhere on this forum.


Honestly, what is your point here besides being a huge distraction to the thread's topic? I swear your ego is astronomical, that's all you really seem to care about.


*I think the thread should be split between tangential personal disagreements/PL discussion, and actual discussion and critique of the video material.

 

[Lyra]

Re: Type Reading | Series

Your issues here seem no different from the ones you were having with Auburn months ago on the other site; you can't sit there and act as if you have loftier pursuits while you continue to insert Pod'Lair ideology and your personal agenda everywhere on this forum.


Honestly, what is your point here besides being a huge distraction to the thread's topic? I swear your ego is astronomical, that's all you really seem to care about.


*I think the thread should be split between tangential personal disagreements/PL discussion, and actual discussion and critique of the video material.

I haven't inserted any ideology anywhere, and I actually do not care to. I've made factual arguments in response to specific claims to the contrary. My personal position is much more complex than you realise. If you re-read some of my recent posts I think you'll see I've said some very much independent things of benefit to no ideology. I support independent exploration of this and any phenomenon, and general intellectual openess (I don't care who that puts me on the wrong side of), but that doesn't contravene the facts and levels of competence pertinent to a given situation.

And... insults don't change facts. All of these facts are relevant to CT and the positions its proponents are taking.

My point here is accuracy and enabling a generally more clarified realisation of the state of affairs with regards to a topic I'm interested in, and about which disinformation is being promoted. Associations or projections onto me don't change facts, the analysis or premises, or the validity of arguments. I don't intend to only employ that kind of analysis in service of some agenda-- I regard myself as independent minded-- but it would mean nothing, logically and in terms of evidence, if I did have that kind of intention.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Re: Type Reading | Series

I haven't inserted any ideology anywhere, and I actually do not care to. I've made factual arguments in response to specific claims to the contrary. My personal position is much more complex than you realise. If you re-read some of my recent posts I think you'll see I've said some very much independent things of benefit to no ideology.

And... insults don't change facts. All of these facts are relevant to CT and the positions its proponents are taking.

My point here is accuracy and enabling a generally more clarified realisation of the state of affairs with regards to a topic I'm interested in, and about which disinformation is being promoted. Associations or projections onto me don't change facts, the analysis or premises, or the validity of arguments. I don't intend to only employ that kind of analysis in service of some agenda-- I regard myself as independent minded-- but it would mean nothing, logically and in terms of evidence, if I did have that kind of intention.

If you aren't directly discussing or critiquing the accuracy of the videos, then it is tangential.


You are personally crusading no matter how you try to contextualize it. If you truly believe CognitiveType is substantially copied to a crucuial extent, then that topic warrants its own thread, but meanwhile you're only being an offtopic distraction with the typical Pod'Lair competition, personal attacks on Auburn, and the injection of your own ideology.

 

[Lyra]

Re: Type Reading | Series

If you aren't directly discussing or critiquing the accuracy of the videos, then it is tangential.


You are personally crusading no matter how you try to contextualize it. If you truly believe CognitiveType is substantially copied to a crucuial extent, then that topic warrants its own thread, but meanwhile you're only being an offtopic distraction with the typical Pod'Lair competition, personal attacks on Auburn, and the injection of your own ideology.

Firstly, I am critiquing them or bringing up content relevant to such a critique.

Secondly, this is a red herring. One of the proponents of CT herself chose to bring up this argument (about influence) and draw attention to it. It wasn't central to any point I was making, and I didn't think it would be nearly as contentious as it is. All of my posts before Auburn brought up the issue of provenance (I only mentioned it in a footnote) and PhoenixRising began challenging me on it were in response to others' questions or posts in this thread, and barely even touched on it. They raised the issue and chose to continue discussing it, so stop making this out to be my problem or me distracting. It shows nothing but that you don't think I personally should be given freedom to speak, explore, and discuss as others are.

Discussion has its natural development, and being too rigid with what's allowed to be relevant to a certain discussion is just a form of censorship and populist totalitarianism. People bring up what they feel is relevant to their understanding of it. All of this relates to the video content at the very least. And, again, certainly wasn't pushed into the discussion against others' will by me.

As for a crusade-- sometimes people pursue truth. What's wrong with that? Bizarre comment. Let's get back to the issues and facts of the matter, instead of writing off the possibility that individuals might have something to say because of the roles/intentions we're forcing onto them. What a waste of time of a post.

I wouldn't be surprised if you started writing me off with Freudian psychoanalysis next.

 

[Montresor]

Re: Type Reading | Series

I wonder what you would like to gain from this, in a word.

 

[Brontosaurie]

Re: Type Reading | Series

i didn't get an answer to my query about Pod'Lairs silly function names

 

[Lyra]

'I wonder what you would like to gain from this, in a word.'

Lyra says truth, XIII says experience.

 

[Cavallier]

Fukyo has been so kind as to take on the headache of splitting out the one sort of derailed thread into two separate, hopefully coherent, threads. Thank you! As this discussion has become heated and a distraction the thread has been moved to Siberia to cool off.

I am hoping that Auburn, Lyra, and Phoenix can keep their disagreements from infecting the rest of the forum.

This message is just a rewording of what was already covered in the other thread. I wanted to make sure every thread was up to date. Thank you and good night.

 

[PhoenixRising]

Yes, wanted to say, thanks Fukyo =) sry to have been trouble.