Possible difference between INTPs and ENTPs

[digitalbum]

Seems INTPs NEED to be right in an argument/discussion, whereas ENTPs, though they enjoy it, really don't care that much.

Thoughts? Am I way off?

 

[TimeAsylums]

Er...no to both of those stereotypes.


I'll only speak for myself (ENTP) instead of extrapolating on other types as I usually do.

I don't give a fuck WHO is right(correct), I give ten fucks however about WHAT is right(correct).

The idea/discussion is 1,000x more important and larger than any individual ego taking part in it


The questions that should be asked of the individual should not be "am I right" (ego centered), but "Is this line of thinking correct?" etc

 

[Methodician]

As a fellow INTP (or maybe INTJ) I still concur with @TimeAsylums. It's nice to be correct, give yourself a pat on the back and say "Told 'ya so"... but I don't think much about it.

What matters most to me is WHAT is right, and that I eventually understand it. If I find in some conversation/debate I'm mistaken and someone has corrected my thinking, I'm excited by the opportunity to change my perspective, learn something new, and get closer to absolute truth. The pursuit of truth is important. Correctness per se is an arbitrary value that can be placed on a statement and, itself, be wrong. Correct today is disproved tomorrow.

I don't fret over it beyond the fear of embarrassment on the off chance I tout something as fact and someone outright disproves me in some simple way. Perhaps what you're experiencing is a need to prove yourself. Nothing inherently wrong with that as long as it doesn't get in the way of truth.

 

[digitalbum]

Er...no to both of those stereotypes.


I'll only speak for myself (ENTP) instead of extrapolating on other types as I usually do.

I don't give a fuck WHO is right, I give ten fucks however about WHAT is right.

The idea/discussion is 1,000x more important and larger than any individual ego taking part in it


The questions that should be asked of the individual should not be "am I right" (ego centered), but "Is this line of thinking correct?" etc

Well no, that's kind of my point. I feel that INTPs I know ARE more wrapped up in their ego concerning arguments.

So let me rephrase, are INTPs' egos more wrapped up in an argument than an ENTP?

Like you said, I personally don't give a fuck if I'm right or wrong either

 

[TimeAsylums]

So let me rephrase, are INTPs' egos more wrapped up in an argument than an ENTP?

From personal and online experience, my answer is "no."

A more "real" problem is more often Ne vs Ti. Ti is wholly reductionist and every linking or following part must be logical, if you think about a mathematical proof. Ti alone sometimes misses the big picture. However Ne in contrast, does not very often enjoy being reduced to these small pieces, because then it can't make connections; it doesn't like being "tied" to any particular thing.

However, that's probably tangential/digressing from the whole "ego" thing.



FWIW, AFAIK, no.

Although who knows, it could vary by individual, some people could care more. idk

 

[digitalbum]

Like for some evidence, one common trait I HAVE noticed amongst INTPs is they really, REALLY, hate being called stupid, or more accurately, considered unintelligent. They told me so themselves, like at least 5 of 'em.

Me? Call me stupid, I could give a shit. I know I'm not.

 

[TimeAsylums]

Like for some evidence, one common trait I HAVE noticed amongst INTPs is they really, REALLY, hate being called stupid, or more accurately, considered unintelligent. They told me so themselves, like at least 5 of 'em.

Me? Call me stupid, I could give a shit. I know I'm not.

Hmmm...

The only thing I can add here is that, they struggle a lot more with their inferior Fe (as Architect has noted, can be related to "fame/social stance"), so I guess it's plausible

alas I can not draw any conclusions

 

[Grayman]

Seems INTPs NEED to be right in an argument/discussion, whereas ENTPs, though they enjoy it, really don't care that much.

Thoughts? Am I way off?

Do you feel more satisfaction during the argument or when the argument ends?

Personally, I don't want to believe that I am incapable of such a thing or I might be finding myself blind to doing it, so I would say that I do find myself going that direction on occasion, I just have to redirect my intentions to compensate for my bias.

 

[digitalbum]

Do you feel more satisfaction during the argument or when the argument ends?

Personally, I don't want to believe that I am incapable of such a thing or I might be finding myself blind to doing it, so I would say that I do find myself going that direction on occasion, I just have to redirect my intentions to compensate for my bias.

Concerning satisfaction during the argument, to quote Michael from Heat:

Ya know, for me? The action IS the juice.

And I do not fear being embarrassed, as I'm quite good at laughing at myself.

 

[Jennywocky]

ENTPs seems to more regularly phrase things in ways other considered "trolly." It's kind of like they have a sixth sense on how to phrase things in a way that will instigate a response. INTPs are capable of that as well but seem less inclined to do so; the theories are more the focus, rather than the discussion level itself.

Like the concerted push here to somehow cast INTPs are more egotistical than ENTPs. The dichotomy seems false from the start, and there's no real evidence provided as to why the claim is even being examined, but the OP keeps pushing at it.

 

[digitalbum]

ENTPs seems to more regularly phrase things in ways other considered "trolly." It's kind of like they have a sixth sense on how to phrase things in a way that will instigate a response.

Like the concerted push here to somehow cast INTPs are more egotistical than ENTPs. The dichotomy seems false from the start, and there's no real evidence provided as to why the claim is even being examined, but the OP keeps pushing at it.

Hahaha, I suppose we do, me especially, come off as "trolly" though it is RARELY if ever, the case.

And I'm NOT pushing it. I was curious. Ya see, I'm ok with being wrong

 

[TimeAsylums]

Like the concerted push here to somehow cast INTPs are more egotistical than ENTPs. The dichotomy seems false from the start, and there's no real evidence provided as to why the claim is even being examined, but the OP keeps pushing at it.

FWIW, yes OP could be phrased in a much more friendly and correct manner, but I do think he is legitimately curious.

As far as "evidence" goes, I think he addresses that in post #6, to which I respond in the next post.

 

[digitalbum]

FWIW, yes OP could be phrased in a much more friendly and correct manner, but I do think he is legitimately curious.

I'm a little rough around the edges.

So shall we end it right here? INTPs are NOT in fact, more prone to have their egos more invested in arguments?

Truth is, I can't answer that. But I'll believe what you tell me if you believe it's honest.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TimeAsylums]

So shall we end it right here? INTPs are NOT in fact, more prone to have their egos more invested in arguments?

As I said, I refrained from drawing any conclusions, and the speculation itself seems plausible.


//Don't cut off a conversation so short, lol it's one(mine) man's opinion, and I'm by no means infallible.

 

[Grayman]

ENTPs seems to more regularly phrase things in ways other considered "trolly." It's kind of like they have a sixth sense on how to phrase things in a way that will instigate a response.

We are nothing but lab rats to them. Poke to see what happens. They neither enjoy the pain or the pleasure just enjoy the process of experiencing the results as they are.

 

[TimeAsylums]

We are nothing but lab rats to them. Poke to see what happens. They neither enjoy the pain or the pleasure just enjoy the process of experiencing the results as they are.

By the way ENTPs love this kind of controversy. Pissing people off intellectually is like a hobby to them.

I personally validate these statements.

I mean, look at the avatar

<----


Fortunately, it has nothing to do with ego, it's just fun.

 

[Grayman]

I personally validate these statements.

I mean, look at the avatar

<----


Fortunately, it has nothing to do with ego, it's just fun.

I'd bet if the rat when poked ran up the stick and out of the box and bit your finger then took off to never be seen again, you would enjoy that even more.

 

[Jennywocky]

FWIW, yes OP could be phrased in a much more friendly and correct manner, but I do think he is legitimately curious.

As far as "evidence" goes, I think he addresses that in post #6, to which I respond in the next post.

I'm not debating whether INTPs hate being called stupid. I'm questioning whether INTPs are more egotistical than ENTPs. The evidence presented doesn't touch that question.

Hell, I'm watching another argument on this forum unfold, for example, and in it I see two ENTPs who come across as FAR more egotistical in their argument style than the INFJ and INTP debating them. The ENTP approach seems far more brash, if you want to talk about appearances, and quick to jump to conclusions and express frustration at how slow everyone else is; while the INxx approach seems far more measured and cautious and more focused on what can be shown vs not shown logically.

I guess the ENTPs don't care if they look stupid and the INTPs do, but does that make INTPs more egotistical? I don't think that is the case.

I'd bet if the rat when poked ran up the stick and out of the box and bit your finger then took off to never be seen again, you would enjoy that even more.

or the rat ended up being a wolf and was just acting according to its nature, so it should be forgiven for taking the whole hand off?

 

[TimeAsylums]

I guess the ENTPs don't care if they look stupid and the INTPs do, but does that make INTPs more egotistical?

Ye, don't get me wrong, I did not validate his points, I simply addressed them.

 

[Grayman]

Like for some evidence, one common trait I HAVE noticed amongst INTPs is they really, REALLY, hate being called stupid, or more accurately, considered unintelligent. They told me so themselves, like at least 5 of 'em.

Me? Call me stupid, I could give a shit. I know I'm not.

This is true, for the less confident maybe younger INTP. I tend to notice just as many ENTP who experience over confidence issues.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

I don't give a fuck WHO is right(correct), I give ten fucks however about WHAT is right(correct).

The idea/discussion is 1,000x more important and larger than any individual ego taking part in it

Except, of course, when you're wrong, starting at post #57.

Words =/= actions, Noisy Cricket.

Well no, that's kind of my point. I feel that INTPs I know ARE more wrapped up in their ego concerning arguments.

So let me rephrase, are INTPs' egos more wrapped up in an argument than an ENTP?

I think ego attachment might have an inverse relationship with age/experience as opposed to being a dichotomy between any two given types.

 

[TimeAsylums]

I'd bet if the rat when poked ran up the stick and out of the box and bit your finger then took off to never be seen again, you would enjoy that even more.

or the rat ended up being a wolf and was just acting according to its nature, so it should be forgiven for taking the whole hand off?

It's yet to happen but you'll know when it does.

 

[TimeAsylums]

Except, of course, when you're wrong, starting at post #57.

Cross-threading, eh? ok but u started it!


btw, you totally stole my complexity entropy bastard :P (but not relevant here,)

anyway,

post #57 was addressed in post #63

(see green text)

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

post #57 was addressed danced around and ignored in post #63

Case studies ftw.

Labeling something as fallacy is often little more than a sub rosa attempt at ad hom assuming that what was labeled was actually understood. It's lose: lose. If it was correctly interpreted then it's an ad hom, and if it wasn't the interpreter is admittedly an idiot. You're claiming neither territory.

Fallacy fallacy 101.

 

[Grayman]

So I figured it out, and I know I am right ...

INTP are afraid of being wrong so they fight for their beliefs to the greatest odds.

ENTP know they are always right so they don't fight to the greatest of odds because they know they are right.

De-exaggerate this a little and we might find some shred of truth.

 

[TimeAsylums]

Case studies ftw.

Asserting a logical fallacy exists =/= ad hominem


case studies still ftw however

 

[TimeAsylums]

So I figured it out, and I know I am right ...

INTP are afraid of being wrong so they fight for their beliefs to the greatest odds.

ENTP know they are always right so they don't fight to the greatest of odds because they know they are right.

De-exaggerate this a little and we might find some shred of truth.

Stereotypically (Exaggerating) speaking, that's close, but the "know they are always right" is stereotypically more applied to the Ni's [The INTJ stereotype "I Know."]...for the Ne it's more like..."I KNOW I'm on the right path...and if i'm wrong i'll easily transfer/jump to the better/correct line of reasoning"

 

[rushgirl2112]

Like for some evidence, one common trait I HAVE noticed amongst INTPs is they really, REALLY, hate being called stupid, or more accurately, considered unintelligent.

INTP here, and yes, I hate being called stupid. I think your mistake is in assuming that it's the same thing as being called incorrect.

Like TimeAsylums and Methodician said, what matters to me is what is right, not who. If I am wrong about something, that's getting in the way of my search for truth, so I want to know about it! Make a good, logical case against what I'm saying and, if I find it to be solid, I'll declare myself wrong and adjust my opinions accordingly. (This tends to happen gradually with minor adjustments over time, but there have been a couple of glorious occasions when a single awesome argument has changed my mind completely on the spot.)

Someone who calls ME stupid is not making a logical argument. They're just throwing an insult at me. And not just any insult, but an insult that attacks what I value most about myself: intelligence, education, and well-thought-out and meticulously crafted opinions (and I'd imagine this is true for the majority of INTPs).

Now, if they call my opinion stupid as opposed to me, then I wouldn't find it personally offensive because, again, I believe that opinions need to be challenged. However, I would still have scorn for someone who said that and would conclude that they're childish and lazy, because they haven't provided any kind of counterargument. "That's stupid" is far too often used by people who refuse to entertain any idea other than the one firmly entrenched in their heads, but who either consciously or subconsciously know they can't make a good, logical argument for it.

So to sum up, my problem is not that I'm bothered by the thought that someone thinks I'm stupid. I'm frustrated by the fact that someone I'm trying to have a debate with is being childish, lazy, and illogical.

 

[digitalbum]

I'm not debating whether INTPs hate being called stupid. I'm questioning whether INTPs are more egotistical than ENTPs. The evidence presented doesn't touch that question.

Hell, I'm watching another argument on this forum unfold, for example, and in it I see two ENTPs who come across as FAR more egotistical in their argument style than the INFJ and INTP debating them. The ENTP approach seems far more brash, if you want to talk about appearances, and quick to jump to conclusions and express frustration at how slow everyone else is; while the INxx approach seems far more measured and cautious and more focused on what can be shown vs not shown logically.

I guess the ENTPs don't care if they look stupid and the INTPs do, but does that make INTPs more egotistical? I don't think that is the case.



or the rat ended up being a wolf and was just acting according to its nature, so it should be forgiven for taking the whole hand off?

Whoa, whoa. I don't recall ever saying INTPs are the most egotistical. To even suggest that hurts my ego, as ENTPs are BY FAR the most arrogant. In my humble opinion.

Btw, too many great posts to respond to them all, but I've been laughing my ass off.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Asserting a logical fallacy exists =/= ad hominem


case studies still ftw however

See edit, Cricket.

ENTP know they are always right so they don't fight to the greatest of odds because they know they are right.

Or at least they think they are... Perhaps that's what you meant with "de-exaggerate"...

 

[digitalbum]

So I figured it out, and I know I am right ...

INTP are afraid of being wrong so they fight for their beliefs to the greatest odds.

ENTP know they are always right so they don't fight to the greatest of odds because they know they are right.

De-exaggerate this a little and we might find some shred of truth.

This is not bad at all. And I now feel I need a "not-sarcasm" addendum to such statements.

 

[digitalbum]

I'd bet if the rat when poked ran up the stick and out of the box and bit your finger then took off to never be seen again, you would enjoy that even more.

I'd have mad respect for that rat.

ENTP know they are always right so they don't fight to the greatest of odds because they know they are right.

ENTPs know they're right, until they're proved wrong, then they know they don't really care.

 

[Grayman]

See edit, Cricket.

Or at least they think they are... Perhaps that's what you meant with "de-exaggerate"...

...

Both depending on the situation. Maybe knowing is more a Se thing.

 

[Pyropyro]

Seems INTPs NEED to be right in an argument/discussion, whereas ENTPs, though they enjoy it, really don't care that much.

Thoughts? Am I way off?

No idea about ENTP's (I only had to deal with a self-described ENTP before) except that they're more intrusive than INTP's IRL.

As for arguments, well it depends.

I occasionally play Devil's advocate during discussions either to help people strengthen their ideas or to kill their useless ideas. I'm usually indifferent to the outcome except if it will somehow affect my interests or my future dealings with said person.

Sometimes I get too passionate in a discussion/argument and want to win. It's not because of principles but simply out of fun. It feels like a mental version of sparring.

 

[digitalbum]

See edit, Cricket.

Or at least they think they are... Perhaps that's what you meant with "de-exaggerate"...

No, we are But honestly, I don't know if this is a belief amongst INTPs, but ENTPs, while known for being little jokers, are also extremely reasonable.

 

[Grayman]

No, we are But honestly, I don't know if this is a belief amongst INTPs, but ENTPs, while known for being little jokers, are also extremely reasonable.

Do you know this or think this?

 

[digitalbum]

I have a few ENTP friends, and they know when their wrong. I can definitely say I do, and not ashamed whatsoever at admitting it. In fact, I'm very often wrong. Other ENTPs I know are extremely open minded. The reason they may seem more stubborn, or even dense, is that very often, because they are so open minded, they have truly gleaned a lot of truths about life, and an older more mature ENTP is a very wise individual indeed.

 

[Jennywocky]

Concerning satisfaction during the argument, to quote Michael from Heat:

Ya know, for me? The action IS the juice.

...Alas, we all know what happened to Michael in the end.

He probably shoulda bailed on that job.

Whoa, whoa. I don't recall ever saying INTPs are the most egotistical. To even suggest that hurts my ego, as ENTPs are BY FAR the most arrogant. In my humble opinion.

I have no choice but to agree.

 

[digitalbum]

...Alas, we all know what happened to Michael in the end.

I know! How cool, the only one to survive the bank heist and live happily ever after in the Caribbean.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Hadoblado]

There are so many reasons to hate being thought of as stupid. The main one that gets me is that what I say is now discounted before the other party addresses my logic.

My take on the OP's observation is that both INTP's and ENTP's value truth but...

1) - ENTP's are more likely to think themselves right and therefore have less to prove.

2) - INTP's may forget that not everybody cares about the truth, and thus may go to absurd lengths to 'win' an argument when all they're trying to do is put you both on the same page or have their reasoning reviewed by a peer.

I'm not saying that they never serve their egos in debate, but I don't think it more than other types (unless they've already been branded stupid )

 

[kris]

Like for some evidence, one common trait I HAVE noticed amongst INTPs is they really, REALLY, hate being called stupid, or more accurately, considered unintelligent. They told me so themselves, like at least 5 of 'em.

Me? Call me stupid, I could give a shit. I know I'm not.

Personally, I don't like being called intelligent or unintelligent, especially during a debate or exchange of ideas. It's not about the insult or compliment; it's that I view my personal characteristics as largely irrelevant to the conversation. Even if I was a mindless random word generator, if a string of words I put together was coherent and correct then it's coherent and correct regardless of who or what I am.

I do accept that there are emotional aspects to interpersonal interaction -- I am not a robot. The desire to insult or compliment comes from this, but a lot of the time statements on other people's intelligence, open-mindedness or conjecture on emotional states doesn't seem to be based on anything tangible or open to rational discourse. Even so, the speaker throws those things into conversation for a reason, so I don't enjoy brushing off whatever thought or emotion lies underneath.

 

[Grayman]

There are so many reasons to hate being thought of as stupid. The main one that gets me is that what I say is now discounted before the other party addresses my logic.

An inconvience, yes. Letting it get at you will only further support such arragont beliefs such as that. Just because they are intelligent, does not mean they are never wrong. Just because you are supposedly less intelligent does not mean you could not be right. It would seem they themselves ar already predisposed to invalid logic.

 

[Jennywocky]

I know! How cool, the only one to survive the bank heist and live happily ever after in the Caribbean.

... Damn. I must have seen the bootleg version. (The one where the editors were running off a crack+percocet tequila bender.)

I bet Jeremy Pivens got a new shirt, and Tom Noonan hooked up with Ashley Judd and Kevin Gage in the backseat of an ambulance.

There are so many reasons to hate being thought of as stupid. The main one that gets me is that what I say is now discounted before the other party addresses my logic.

Yes, it's more that my points are being dismissed and not addressed. If someone can show me I didn't think through something, I'll accept it even if I might feel dumb because I missed something. I find I get most frustrated when I perceive someone isn't address the raised points and just tossing around labels. At that point, we might as well be gaslighting.

 

[Cherry Cola]

I'm not debating whether INTPs hate being called stupid. I'm questioning whether INTPs are more egotistical than ENTPs. The evidence presented doesn't touch that question.

Hell, I'm watching another argument on this forum unfold, for example, and in it I see two ENTPs who come across as FAR more egotistical in their argument style than the INFJ and INTP debating them. The ENTP approach seems far more brash, if you want to talk about appearances, and quick to jump to conclusions and express frustration at how slow everyone else is; while the INxx approach seems far more measured and cautious and more focused on what can be shown vs not shown logically.

I guess the ENTPs don't care if they look stupid and the INTPs do, but does that make INTPs more egotistical? I don't think that is the case.



or the rat ended up being a wolf and was just acting according to its nature, so it should be forgiven for taking the whole hand off?

I'm not sure how INFJs stand in this regard compared to INTPs and ENTPs, probably somewhere in between. I think INFJs can be better at hiding the fact their egotistical tendencies, though they may become apparent over time anyway.

 

[Jennywocky]

I'm not sure how INFJs stand in this regard compared to INTPs and ENTPs, probably somewhere in between. I think INFJs can be better at hiding the fact their egotistical tendencies, though they may become apparent over time anyway.

There's a range of behavior. Usually the ones with highly developed Ti tert can engage pretty strongly. The typical INFJ need for personal privacy / the Fe aux leads them to keep their cool and maintain an even outer decor. Not always, of course; and not all; but there's more of a "formality" that I see in the engagement.

I think ENTPs (and somewhat the INTPs) are more likely to shoot from the hip + be willing to heat things up a little not even out of anger but just to see what the other guy's response reveals about him. Emotions can be used as "testing points" rather than as an accurate in-the-moment unconscious expression of feeling. Or "Hmm, is that really that guy's argument? Okay, what if I push his buttons a little and see what he REALLY thinks?" I think that approach is more common to the ENTPs, but INTPs sometimes do it (more subtlely) when they want to. It's even an ESTP/ISTP thing -- or basically a TP thing in general. The ETPs are more prone to it.

 

[digitalbum]

... Damn. I must have seen the bootleg version. (The one where the editors were running off a crack+percocet tequila bender.)

Hahahaha, yeah, I don't know what you watched. But Robert De Niro personally sent me the real deal.

 

[digitalbum]

Personally, I don't like being called intelligent or unintelligent, especially during a debate or exchange of ideas. It's not about the insult or compliment; it's that I view my personal characteristics as largely irrelevant to the conversation. Even if I was a mindless random word generator, if a string of words I put together was coherent and correct then it's coherent and correct regardless of who or what I am.

I do accept that there are emotional aspects to interpersonal interaction -- I am not a robot. The desire to insult or compliment comes from this, but a lot of the time statements on other people's intelligence, open-mindedness or conjecture on emotional states doesn't seem to be based on anything tangible or open to rational discourse. Even so, the speaker throws those things into conversation for a reason, so I don't enjoy brushing off whatever thought or emotion lies underneath.

If someone insults ME during an argument. Like a "oh yeah? well, you're dumb!" Then, well the argument's pretty much over. That's when the "ok now I'm going to play the insult your very soul game" Often involving mom jokes, or going straight for perceived weaknesses. Or, if it's a total dick that's seriously trying to provoke a fight, just a good solid punch to the trachea. Heeehee.

 

[Grayman]

There's a range of behavior. Usually the ones with highly developed Ti tert can engage pretty strongly. The typical INFJ need for personal privacy / the Fe aux leads them to keep their cool and maintain an even outer decor. Not always, of course; and not all; but there's more of a "formality" that I see in the engagement.

The formality is correct but also the reverse can occure to equal proportions when emotions get a flinging.

I 'see' more ego in them simply because I associate ego with the objective morality they seem to keep in their back pocket incase they ever have an argument. I keep thelling them there really is nothing in their pocket but their subjective point of view but they will noot listen.

 

[digitalbum]

I think ENTPs (and somewhat the INTPs) are more likely to shoot from the hip + be willing to heat things up a little not even out of anger but just to see what the other guy's response reveals about him. Emotions can be used as "testing points" rather than as an accurate in-the-moment unconscious expression of feeling. Or "Hmm, is that really that guy's argument? Okay, what if I push his buttons a little and see what he REALLY thinks?" I think that approach is more common to the ENTPs, but INTPs sometimes do it (more subtlely) when they want to. It's even an ESTP/ISTP thing -- or basically a TP thing in general. The ETPs are more prone to it.

Some of the things you say, are exquisite.

 

[TimeAsylums]

It's even an ESTP/ISTP thing -- or basically a TP thing in general. The ETPs are more prone to it.

I will personally validate STPs and ENTP self.

>_> (ESTP father, ISTP significant others)

Some of the things you say, are exquisite.

Get in line. haha


Anyway, I agree with Jen, swear it has something to do with the tert/inf Fe in TPs...we "need" (want) to see that this is "real" so, if they let out some emotion, this is probably real...


Let's just say that this is not beneficial in emotional arguments with the ISTP other


PJ somewhat mentions it here: http://personalityjunkie.com/02/int...traverted-feeling-fe-intps-entps-istps-estps/
tangential: http://personalityjunkie.com/08/intp-entp-istp-estp-relationships-common-roadblocks/