Jesus dude, stfu for once. I'm going to be even more squishy than YOU -- probably a one-hit kill -- and you don't hear me whining about it before we even know ANYTHING about the campaign. (I don't get XP bonuses, etc., either, or extra skills, and I had my race nerfed.)
Do you think Hado is a shitty-enough GM to screw you over and just let you die and that be the end of it, or actively try to kill you? Haven't you gamed with him as a player long enough to get a feel for him? (He's the wizard who even runs into combat and takes minuses on his to-hit to body slam people.) So just relax and have a little faith.
He's also obviously trying something different, so if it looks like it isn't working out as planned, based on my experience with him I have every confidence that he will change what he's doing to make it all work out in the end. What little I've talked to him about it, he cut XP to slow so that he could provide more XP on an individual basis versus everyone just getting a set amount -- so your player skill means more in this environment.
Which is why I was hoping you weren't serious. You seem to just be flipping out suddenly, and I can't even tell why.
What we know thus far is this, there will be no humans, if there's a society of any kind there will be no economy, so nothing to steal, no one to impersonate or bluff, it looks like it's going to be a nothing-but-combat campaign, maybe a bit of wilderness survival.
Who are we, what are we doing and why are we doing it?
Put me on a barren wasteland populated by nothing but monsters and no way to get home, expecting me to fight just for the sake of fighting and I'll just give a speech about fatalism then lay down and die.
Difficulty has to be met with reward, accomplishments require context, difficulty itself isn't a bad thing but when there's difficulty for its own sake then it just becomes a hassle and I feel bad about playing a ninja before the game has even started, I feel like I'm going to be a liability for simply selecting the wrong class because that class is Charisma focused.
EDIT: I should also add that it's hard to go wrong with a ninja, for pete's sake. You appear, stab something, then vanish again. If there's a party wipe, you're likely to be one of the survivors.
That's a great war movie but fucking terrible game design, especially in a role playing game where as a DM your primary goal is to get your players invested in the lives
Who told you this? What if the players enjoy roleplaying average people in realistic scenarios? If he does his job correctly then you will be invested, it doesn't matter what mechanics are used, only whom do you play with and what you can do.
Difficulty has to be met with reward, accomplishments require context, difficulty itself isn't a bad thing but when there's difficulty for its own sake then it just becomes a hassle and I feel bad about playing a ninja before the game has even started, I feel like I'm going to be a liability for simply selecting the wrong class because that class is Charisma focused.
Jumping to conclusions aren't you? It is a well known fact that charisma characters are to be moped about and complain. Charisma is the most commonly selected dump stat for a reason. Hahaha, what would you expect? If you play well then you can make your high charisma character work, but it requires actual convincing play and not just mechanics, because these aren't in your favour.
On the other hand if you play well, you tend to outshine any minmaxer that's playing with you since they only care about stats.
Who told you this? What if the players enjoy roleplaying average people in realistic scenarios? If he does his job correctly then you will be invested, it doesn't matter what mechanics are used, only whom do you play with and what you can do.
I was thinking in terms of rolling a 1 and stabbing myself or another player, or rolling under 4 while crafting a poison and poisoning myself, or being ambushed and taken out in a surprise round. This in of itself isn't a bad thing, in a urban fantasy game for instance it's only sensible that being shot with a gun isn't something to be taken lightly but at the same time it's not like you're being shot at all the time. The impression I was getting was that we'd need to boost our hitpoints and saves just to survive as there wouldn't be much to the game other than combat, I've been reassured by Jenny's judgement, and if I roll a 1 Hado's probably not going to say I stab myself in the face with a poisoned dagger.
At least I hope not
On the other hand if you play well, you tend to outshine any minmaxer that's playing with you since they only care about stats.
Soo practice your speeches Cog.
I need people to talk to for that, inter-player roleplay will only get me so far and I'm not going roll against the party (unless it's pointless fun) because that's just not something one should do.
I was thinking in terms of rolling a 1 and stabbing myself or another player, or rolling under 4 while crafting a poison and poisoning myself, or being ambushed and taken out in a surprise round.
You take 10 when working in non-combat conditions, so you won't poison yourself unless the GM is mean . You can take 20 after making preparations to avoid rolling outside of combat in general.
This in of itself isn't a bad thing, in a urban fantasy game for instance it's only sensible that being shot with a gun isn't something to be taken lightly but at the same time it's not like you're being shot at all the time. The impression I was getting was that we'd need to boost our hitpoints and saves just to survive as there wouldn't be much to the game other than combat, I've been reassured by Jenny's judgement, and if I roll a 1 Hado's probably not going to say I stab myself in the face with a poisoned dagger.
I don't think Hado's going to outright kill us. That would beat the purpose of being cruel .
I need people to talk to for that, inter-player roleplay will only get me so far and I'm not going roll against the party (unless it's pointless fun) because that's just not something one should do.
True, the GM has to give you some opportunity, but if he doesn't then he will lose respect of other players if you are roleplaying well and they recognise that.
I tend to do that when I'm left guessing, I've been called out on it before too, need to figure out how to realize when I'm doing it...
Sure, my method is to think of GM as the enemy AI. I tend to consipre against the GM, predict their moves and plays and beat them every time.
Roleplaying is great fun too but a good GM will boost you up if they see you trying to achieve something interesting.
I played a charismatic character in a star wars setting and my goal was to take over a star destroyer with only 3 team members. It was obvious it was going to fail however we got to hold the bridge with a few hostages before we died, it was fun despite the fact that the GM decided they weren't going to allow us to do something so ridiculous. The GM knew we wanted to have some fun and drama, so we almost got the starship, it turned out more fun than if we succeeded.
Any GM worth their salt (even the most sadistic) won't want to kill players.
Haven't you ever read, "I have no mouth and I must scream"?
If we all die, he has no toys left.
I just would prefer it's handled a little more organically than AHS Season 3 where everyone died at least once and then came back to life at some point (it seemed).
Hado at this preparation/preliminary stage is doing no less than an amazing job at keeping us informed of relevant changes made so that we can adjust as players months in advance.
Cog how about you go and manage to come up with a single character design that's not either completely anti-social, a complete deadweight to the party OR run a campaign past the prologue before you start bitching about this one.
Also while I can't speak for everyone, this campaign actually looks awesome so far based on the thought Hado has put into it.
Cog you realise this is tabletop role-playing game right?
I'm glad you've done some more thinking since last night Cog because I was itching to take this to a place far less civil.
*deletes hateful response*
(Thank-you guys for having some faith).
Cog, I know that it's a big ask, but go reread the things I've said in this thread. Think about the supporting information behind your conclusions and other options, because you are just so deeply wrong it's hurtful that you would think the things that you do.
- Wilderness survival? none is planned so far
- no economy? wrong.
- nothing to steal? wrong.
- no NPC's? wrong.
- no city? wrong. You're starting smack bang in the middle of one. That's been the plan since day one.
- endless series of combat encounters? I've stated that a lot of combat would be optional or at least avoidable. Why would you assume the opposite? wrong.
- no roleplay? Half the rules I've implemented are for the sake of roleplay. Jesus fuck wrong.
- no traits? I'm giving them to you for free later in the campaign -> don't invest a feat in them. How could you spin that into a negative? Yes you will be able to choose.
- worried about stabbing self in face on a 1? Well... crit fumbles are fun but I haven't communicated any intention to implement them.
- Accidentally poisoning self? Blar's right about taking 10 out of combat, so don't fear that too much.
- I'm forcing you to optimise? wrong on multiple levels. I'm wanting you to make an adventurer instead of a keyboard warrior. You've made a melee character so frail he can't be seen in combat let alone try to hit something. Your solution to combat is to fail at it, and have the party fail at it, then rez after.
I understand wanting to do things other than combat, but your stubbornness concerning this is flabbergasting. I've made my intentions clear from the onset that combat will be challenging. I don't require people to optimise, but I strongly recommend not roleplaying a sickly librarian because there will be combat.
I've not disallowed your character being suboptimal. I'm concerned for your level of enjoyment and that of those playing with you. I've communicated from day one what this campaign will be like, and you've set your mind stubbornly into pushing a certain character concept kicking and screaming into it. You could save this particular character for a different, less difficult campaign. I'm not telling you that you can't make this character, or that you can't use it in this campaign. I'm telling you that this particular character is ill-suited to this campaign, because you're assuming that you'll be entitled to a free-ride in combat. Rezzing is not free, it's an option available for when the worst happens.
You don't have the right to tell me that we're not allowed to have challenging combat, and your stubbornness is driving other people to have to optimise their characters further than they'd like to in order keep combat winnable. You're basically hogging all of the wiggle room I gave the party to make well-rounded characters. If you want a combatless campaign make one. Wait you already did. Good for you. Notice I didn't join it and subsequently tell you how to run it. Good day.
Jenny you were completely right to tell me to stfu, events irl have shown me that my reactions to things of late have been abnormal, I snapped at work over something that really didn't warrant it, to Hado and everyone I can't apologize enough, I realize now that I'm getting way angrier than I should be over things that really don't matter.
I need to calm the fuck down, again I apologize in retrospect I see my behavior has been absolutely unacceptable, I'm going to stop posting for a while and take some time to do... something, I dunno what but I know I'm making a dick of myself and that can't continue.
I also don't think your reaction was that terrible. I think you are overreacting to your previous overreaction right now, but peace and good luck with sorting it out.
Do you think I can use the Death from Above feat if I jump high enough?
And if I jump attack someone in this way can I stand on them?
Can I do this to jump back and forth (using acrobatics to avoid attacks of opportunity) performing a kind of improvised flying charge on each attack?
A kitsune ninja can reach some pretty insane bonuses on acrobatics in only a few levels (+40, possibly even +50 to jump if the acrobatics benefit from expeditious retreat is a consequential effect rather than a enhancement bonus) and I could do this without the Death from Above feat to get the attack bonus from charging and being on high ground (+2 and +1 respectively) so an additional +2 for the price of a feat doesn't seem unfair if I have to spend a Ki point each time to make the check or find someone to cast Jump on me.
Earlier I thought Death from Above require a charge from high ground or the character to merely be flying, not charging just flying, so I thought if I could make the acrobatics check to jump over the opponent I could attack on them in mid air assuming I started adjacent to them and the acrobatics check would be part of my attack so it could be a full attack as well, maybe even flanking
That would have been so awesome, if only there was another feat that allowed me to circumvent the minimum 10ft movement rule for charging, although by then I'll have spent two feats on an attack option that would only be viable for very acrobatic builds.
Edit: Is this feat only for Strix and large mount riders?
I suppose if a caster was really really nice and gave me fly I could use it although considering a conventional charge would just be the one attack I supposed it would be better spend on the party's beefcake.
Asking if you're "allowed" is really the wrong question. The three questions you should really ask before picking a feat:
1. Is the feat useful in a majority of circumstances OR very useful situationally?
2. Is it relevant to the campaign?
3. Does it work effectively independent of DM fiat?
If the answer to more than one of these is no - pick another feat.
1. Yes: situationally the feat is very useful.
2. This campaign is starting us at level 1, buck naked with nothing. Slow experience gain and unreliable itemization. So no, the feat isn't relevant.
3. The only way this is ever going to work the way you want is if Hado specifically designs encounters just so that you can use the feat the way you want to use it.
Given those conditions I'd say pick another more reliable feat at level 1. If it turns out there actually IS a lot of opportunities to use the feat you can always take it at level 3.
Just FYI (and because I cannot tell a lie) I'm rolling a paladin, AKA the guy that will ruin all your fun while keeping your sorry ass from getting killed.
"Terrible" is a bit of a strong word. I've discussed it with Hado and he doesn't think it's that bad of an idea. It fills a lot of critical roles that are seemingly empty at the moment, and I also won't be playing as a "lawful stupid" character.
That being said, if my choice is going to impede everyone else's ability to have fun, I'd be content as a fighter as well I suppose.
Knowing what we know about this campaign, I think that Lay on Hands, mercies, auras and also the ridiculously high saving throws that Paladins have will be invaluable.
At this moment in time I'm on a little time-out from D&D stuff but...
Movement During a Charge
You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.
If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.
You can't take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
Attacking on a Charge
After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.
A charging character gets a +2 bonus on combat maneuver attack rolls made to bull rush an opponent.
Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.
Lances and Charge Attacks: A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge.
Weapons Readied against a Charge: Spears, tridents, and other weapons with the brace feature deal double damage when readied (set) and used against a charging character.
Charging requires you to attack from the closest square you can get to. This means you can't move past the square in front of them. I'll draw exceptions if you can jump so high you're coming down on them vertically
Now, I need you to be fully aware of the limitations of acrobatics. You've a tendency to read things favourably without looking for counter-points.
- Any opponent you land on will count as a mildly steady surface for the purpose of jumping again (DC+5). If the opponent is small or weak, they will count as a severely unsteady surface (DC+10).
- If you're charging someone, you need to be moving at full speed, and moving full speed increases the difficulty of acrobatics checks to avoid AoO's by +10.
- You will have difficulty doing this stuff if your load is medium or heavy. Some maneuvers become impossible even.
- Jumping on someone's head, or behind them, involves moving through their square. This increases DC of acrobatics to avoid AoO's by +5.
I'll rule that they don't get this AoO until after you hit if their weapon is not as long as yours. This is important for the next point. Also, they won't get that attack off if you kill them
- If you're in midair and someone takes their AoO against you, the DC will be +10 to avoid it. This is because you are literally redistributing your center of mass relative only to itself (rather than by pushing off another mass). If you manage to land before the AoO, that modifier will drop to +5 (you've still just crash landed into an opponent's reach).
- Long jumps increase in DC by one for every foot across, and high jumps increase in DC by four for every foot in height. These DC's double if you don't take 10 feet of space for a running start (20 feet for long jump). This is important when considering the next point.
- No jump can allow you to exceed maximum movement for the round. Essentially any jumping contributes to distance moved in a round. Your maximum movement will be doubled since you're charging. I will only be counting the distance you travel up and across, your descent is free.
- What you're proposing is sort of an amalgamation of long and high jumps, I don't know how to calculate that DC at this time, but I can't see it being easy. It's likely something like [0.75*distance traveled]+[4*height]. Which could get very difficult very quickly.
- There will be limitations on jump distance based on space available. Ceilings = bad.
I do want to let you do this stuff, but there are so many areas where you're scraping up against the rules that it's feeling like something your character won't be able to do consistently, which makes the feat far less worth it. Also, the sheer number of rules we (yes I'd make you do them too) would have to crunch every single attack would be... exhausting.
I'll still allow this sorta thing as per the rulings above, but I can see the DC's being pretty harsh if you don't choose your timing well.
Note: Everything above other than the weapon length AoO ruling is from http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/acrobatics. If you can find legit sources that indicate something else, then I'll reconsider.
I won't have to even put down monsters if you kill yourselves
In all seriousness though, I don't have too many worries about characters crapping all over each other. There is actually a decent mix of alignments at this moment in time. None of you will stick out.
Oh no I'm planning ahead a few levels, weapon finesse and two weapon fighter are mandatory before I even start considering anything else.
Just FYI (and because I cannot tell a lie) I'm rolling a paladin, AKA the guy that will ruin all your fun while keeping your sorry ass from getting killed.
I do want to let you do this stuff, but there are so many areas where you're scraping up against the rules that it's feeling like something your character won't be able to do consistently, which makes the feat far less worth it. Also, the sheer number of rules we (yes I'd make you do them too) would have to crunch every single attack would be... exhausting.
Yeah it's not going to work, oh well I'll still jump on people if the opportunity arises for the +1 bonus but this probably won't be from ground level until much later in the campaign.
"Terrible" is a bit of a strong word. I've discussed it with Hado and he doesn't think it's that bad of an idea. It fills a lot of critical roles that are seemingly empty at the moment, and I also won't be playing as a "lawful stupid" character.
That being said, if my choice is going to impede everyone else's ability to have fun, I'd be content as a fighter as well I suppose.
Actually, I'm willing to change my character concept to fit more with you being a pally if that seems better. I was on cell before and couldn't type a lot, sorry if I came on too strong.
I was mostly concerned because in my weekly group we had half good and half evil (kind of how the campaign went, it didn't start that way), and we ended up having a lot of interparty friction and a group meltdown, and one character ended up getting booted. So I just wanted to make sure we could still work together. If you think you can work with that range of alignments, then it's okay.
So at this point we've got
- Abs: paladin
- Cog: paladin ninja?!
- Jenny: witch
- RB: ?? -> he's given me a char sheet but I'm not sure if he's settled on it yet, or whether he wants people knowing
- Cheese: ?? -> was barb but has since expressed doubts
- Sexist Tom: ?? -> can be relied on to play something sneaky
- Blarraun: rogue
The overlap between paladin classes will be temporary at best, I think Cog will be bored of single classing before level 4 XD
If people have got character sheet drafts, could you send me what you've got?
So at this point we've got
- Abs: paladin
- Cog: paladin ninja?!
- Jenny: witch
- RB: ?? -> he's given me a char sheet but I'm not sure if he's settled on it yet, or whether he wants people knowing
- Cheese: ?? -> was barb but has since expressed doubts
- Sexist Tom: ?? -> can be relied on to play something sneaky
- Blarraun: rogue
The overlap between paladin classes will be temporary at best, I think Cog will be bored of single classing before level 4 XD
If people have got character sheet drafts, could you send me what you've got?
I just sent you a new character concept via PM and don't prefer to discuss anything about any character I submit in the public thread. (at least not at this time.) Thanks.
I'm worshiping a kami from real world Shinto, Inari Ōkami who is primarily the patron deity of rice but also tea, sake, general agriculture, foxes, and to a lesser extent industries like forging swords and selling goods, foxes and kitsune (youkai foxes) are her/it/their messengers. In pathfinder kami differ slightly from what I know of shinto (though the difference may be a lack of knowledge on my part) in that they have a ward which they're dedicated to protecting, although some kami remember their former lives (before they died and became kami spirits) and can then gain class levels and eventually ascend into demigod status, perhaps even full godhood.
We're still nutting out exactly what this means for me, currently it seems I take the Oath Against Chaos paladin archetype so I become a lawful neutral paladin who is at the beck and call of whichever kami happen to be nearby. Not all kami are godlike or indeed gods, most are quite humble, the guardian of a single stone or tree, Shikigami may even select a manufactured item as their ward. So I'm going to be talking to plants, and places, and things, and these kami are going to be telling me to do stuff and I'll want their favor so I can beseech them to activate meditation crystals (or equivalent thereof) for me.
Basically I'm taking orders from this guy ->
Kami are telepathic and they tend to work together to defend each other's wards so for the most part any kami I help with put in a good word for me with the others, as will any kami I harm, neglect or refuse to aid.
Me? I am just an ordinary transsexual male with a 11 year old boy falsetto voice, a tendency to compulsively lie about weather and the whereabouts of your purse.
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. You can take 20 after making preparations to avoid rolling outside of combat in general.
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