opinion poll : greatness vs happiness

[WALKYRIA]

Hello everybody, i'm INTP 5w4 and i'm in a stage of my life(early 20's) where i'm wondering which path to take(and i'm kind of paralyzed right now) and conceptually speaking the dilemma is : Should i choose Greatness or Happiness?

What about u, what would you take / what did u choose : GREATNESS(i think of intellectual greatness/achievement ) or HAPPINESS( fulfilling the emotional/moral/spiritual needs)?

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

I attempted the greatness route and was ambushed by happiness. The nature of the scientific institution (Why does alopecia receive more research funding than malaria again?) is losing its appeal more and more.

 

[redbaron]

Who says they're mutually exclusive?

 

[skier]

I'm 18 and right now in my life, I'm striving for the intellectual achievement greatness route. It just seems more appealing because when I'm gone I want to have made a difference and have progressed humanity in the right direction. Ju feel me dawg?

 

[WALKYRIA]

"The Fool's standpoint is that all social institutions are games. He sees the whole world as game playing. That's why, when people take their games seriously and take on stern and pious expressions the Fool gets the giggles; because he knows that it is all a game."- Alan Watts

great quote, i like it... I get the feeling that "*N*P" live naturally accordingly to that quote. Nevertheless, I think it would be difficult living completely through that philosophy in our modern society; Considering that nothing really matters would lead to slackerdom and laziness and ull finally get kicked out of society, a loner, an outsider... is this the natural route for INTPs ? Another problem is the sexual selection... no satisfying woman would like to get kids with an outsider... and women are important to our happiness, that we can't change it.

PS:
Was just wondering how you live the life as a doctor, is it satisfying for an INTP ? It's kinda routine oriented job, no?

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

great quote, i like it... I think "*N*P" live naturally accordingly to that quote ? Nevertheless, I think it would be difficult living completely through that philosophy in our modern society; Considering that nothing really matters leads to slackerdom and lazyness and u finally get kicked out of society, a loner, an outsider... is this the natural route for INTPs ? Another problem is the sexual selection... no woman would like to get kids with an outsider... and women are important to our happiness, that we can't change it.

Once you start living it you find out that there's an entire society that's been kicked out of society, women included.

PS:
Was just wondering how you live the life as a doctor, is it satisfying for an INTP ? It's kinda routine oriented job, no?

Well, I'm not an INTP (ENTP) or a doctor (well, a doctor of habitats and systems), but I think it's suitable for both if they're able to make it past the patches of routine and organization. They're like speed bumps.

 

[Kuu]

Pick despair, save yourself the hassle of disappointment.

 

[snafupants]

great quote, i like it... I get the feeling that "*N*P" live naturally accordingly to that quote. Nevertheless, I think it would be difficult living completely through that philosophy in our modern society; Considering that nothing really matters would lead to slackerdom and laziness and ull finally get kicked out of society, a loner, an outsider... is this the natural route for INTPs ? Another problem is the sexual selection... no satisfying woman would like to get kids with an outsider... and women are important to our happiness, that we can't change it.

PS:
Was just wondering how you live the life as a doctor, is it satisfying for an INTP ? It's kinda routine oriented job, no?

Here's another all too convenient quote (Linklater...apt name for forum culture).

Spoiler

Yeah, I just watched Slacker.

Slackers might look like the left-behinds of society, but they are actually one step ahead, rejecting most of society and the social hierarchy before it rejects them. The dictionary defines slackers as people who evade duties and responsibilities. A more modern notion would be people who are ultimately being responsible to themselves and not wasting their time in a realm of activity that has nothing to do with who they are or what they might be ultimately striving for.

The movie's pretty brilliant. It's replete with NT jagoffs butchering Genealogy of Morals.

Slacker is a bit like Pulp Fiction on acid...but directed by Wes Anderson...who's stoned and nauseous.

Spoiler

All too convenient...all too human...yeah, I'm an asshole.

 

[Hadoblado]

If I were great, I would be happy.

Greatness attracts wealth, friends, lovers, etc.

No longer needing to attend to these needs, you are then in a good place to tackle spirituality, emotions, and morality.

On the flip-side, being happy is great, but it's a kind of great that is not recognised by the external agent. Almost anyone can be happy, hardly anyone can be truly great.

 

[snafupants]

Hello everybody, i'm INTP 5w4 and i'm in a stage of my life(early 20's) where i'm wondering which path to take(and i'm kind of paralyzed right now) and conceptually speaking the dilemma is : Should i choose Greatness or Happiness?

What about u, what would you take / what did u choose : GREATNESS(i think of intellectual greatness/achievement ) or HAPPINESS( fulfilling the emotional/moral/spiritual needs)?

Why do you feel one needs to choose between "greatness" and happiness? There have been basically happy geniuses before...I'm not calling you a genius, however.

 

[joal0503]

Why do you feel one needs to choose between "greatness" and happiness? There have been basically happy geniuses before...I'm not calling you a genius, however.

you stole my response.

why choose? just be.

 

[RadicalDreamer31]

I've been at myself over this same question for sometime. I think your question is actually "should I give a fuck?"

You might be screwed either way. Where does your happiness come from? If your asking if you should be happy, chances are your passive and pointless daily retiuals arent making you happy, and won't, ever. You'll look back and regret the time you wasted not acheiving.

Now if you choose "greatness" you'll place heavy expectation and stress upon yourself. Every setback and failure will drive you mad. Wether or not you acheive something, you'll look back and regret the time you wasted not being happy. Becuase whatever it is is will take you MUCH longer than you anticipated.


Striving for something is a great feeling, work at it a little each day. But don't forget to live.



But yeah, if you're like me, you're screwed. You're compelled to do something awesome, but you just don't wanna.

 

[Adrift]

Who says they're mutually exclusive?

I have to agree with this. I don't think it would be possible for me to have one without the other.

 

[Architect]

I would be extremely cautious about pursuing 'greatness'

INTP Personal Growth

They may dream of doing something grand, something big, something that would bring them widespread affirmation.

While dreams and ambitions are not inherently bad, pursuing grandiose ideals is rarely in INTP’s best interests. As I’ve described elsewhere, this can lead them to rush through their work, devalue their relationships, and prevent them from savoring the journey of life. INTPs who are in a mad rush to prove themselves or produce something grandiose will invariably produce work of questionable quality, making it unlikely they will earn the affirmation they are seeking.

I've fallen into this trap many times and it never worked out. To find greatness you must pursue modest goals.

 

[WALKYRIA]

Yeah, ive been thinking lately and realized that the real basis of my despair and despression is you know that existential depression: when u realize that your life is finite and you certainly won't quit it hzving had enough of it, that your reality will never equal your imagination; and that plans will remain plans(unless you escape them in arts: film making, music, creative writing ).... i guess am growing up realizing those cruel facts.

Have you guys heard about the quarter life crisis? transition between university and work environnement... the shock with the crude reality, the practical issues of life.
Have you been through it?

I would be extremely cautious about pursuing 'greatness'

This is actually THE problem... so what should one youngster architect of his life do? Currently i'm busy striving to maintain a balance between my creativity/ imagination/daydreaming/ creative depression/planning you know INTP stuff... and the boring reality's duties and fastidious practicalities necessary to make a living. I find it difficult and draining maintaining that balance but at the same time i feel i just cannot let my "creativity(thus potential to greatness)" perish... It wouldnt be me anymore.

I also have no real social contacts beside school environnement( i just can't connect and relate with them S types), for sexual needs i go in bars and pick up randomly good girls. A longterm girlfreind would be draining.
I have little contact with family, i left my childhood "friends" and have actually no real friends(friend= one you can deeply connect with and plan big things together !) in my current city.... I did all these sacrifices in order to find myself and for the sake of greatness. I'm 24 and i'm content I finally found myself... but what about greatness? what is greatness?

Should i just content myself with low level achievements?

Why do you feel one needs to choose between "greatness" and happiness? There have been basically happy geniuses before...I'm not calling you a genius, however.

I'm not a genius, genius is a concept defined by the society... concept of the past. I find that our current society doenst make enough place for genius. We need a revolution.
And i guess you guys are right, i expressed myself in the wrong way( i'm french ). I'll conclude that happiness and greatness are not necessarily mutually exclusive if they are moderate... but again moderation is boring.


I think i have 2 main problems: finiteness of life/time constraint and dealing with practical details.
Is there perhaps no way to hold "many lives " in one life? what would be the trick? the matrix?

thx everybody for ur insight

 

[SpaceYeti]

Greatness causes happiness. Just look at Bender.

 

[GodOfOrder]

Aristotle would call human happiness the highest goal, and all other things that humans do, even if they are misguided, are a means to acquire happiness.

People who are trying to achieve greatness are only attempting to find satisfaction through their greatness, and are hoping it will ultimately grant them happiness.

 

[Nezaros]

Aristotle would call human happiness the highest goal, and all other things that humans do, even if they are misguided, are a means to acquire happiness.

People who are trying to achieve greatness are only attempting to find satisfaction through their greatness, and are hoping it will ultimately grant them happiness.

Agreed. No one would try for greatness if they didn't think happiness would ensue. Arguably everybody only makes decisions that they think will bring them the most happiness.

 

[Philovitist]

Does singleminded pursuit of greatness make you happy?

Or does singleminded pursuit of happiness make you great?

Pretty sure the latter happens more often than the former.

 

[snafupants]

Does singleminded pursuit of greatness make you happy?

Or does singleminded pursuit of happiness make you great?

Pretty sure the latter happens more often than the former.

The latter makes one a hedonist; the former makes one a prig.

 

[Nezaros]

The latter makes one a hedonist; the former makes one a prig.

Your new avatar is awesomeness.

More relevant: Ain't nothin' wrong with hedonism.

 

[snafupants]

Your new avatar is awesomeness.

More relevant: Ain't nothin' wrong with hedonism.

@Nezaros

In moderation, hedonism is fine. It just shouldn't constitute your sole (punny haha) focus.

Spoiler

And thanks.

 

[Nezaros]

Well, hedonism is nothing more than attempting to maximize pleasure while minimizing pain. Isn't that pretty much the goal of every human being? Some of us just happen to have different sources of pleasure from others.

 

[snafupants]

Well, hedonism is nothing more than attempting to maximize pleasure while minimizing pain. Isn't that pretty much the goal of every human being? Some of us just happen to have different sources of pleasure from others.

@Nezaros

It never quite works out as planned. A piece of Thus Spoke Zarathustra that stuck with me: you're better off pursuing grief and hardship over rollicking good times. Lasting satisfaction usually comes from work and labored self-improvement rather than frivolous jollies. The pleasure from work is deeper than from play. Also, play leaves less in its wake than solid effort. Do you want to look back at yourself, in other words, as someone who ate ice cream, played video games and did little else?

 

[snafupants]

I'm saying this to save folks some time: seeking "fun" is self-defeating. It's not that I'm anti-hedonist - you can do whatever you like - but ferreting out "fun" sacrifices the present (you're planning to have fun and not having fun or being present), puts short-term ahead of long-term goals and curtails most eventual "fun" via anticipating future amusement. The anticipated gift isn't nearly as sweet, and tis better to give anyway. Overall, I measure a life's success by the avoidance of pain, which invokes wisdom, rather than by whether one got one's rocks off seven days of the week. The latter life is barren of any real meaning. Doing heroin and blowing your brains out immediately before the comedown maximizes pleasure but it's a shitty strategy. Also, hedonism tends to feel mostly unsatisfying and it certainly constitutes a more egoic lifestyle.

 

[WALKYRIA]

you're better off pursuing grief and hardship over rollicking good times

I like this...

I have the feeling that pursuit of greatness is similar to the uber-mens route... Cannot be achieved without suffering and disintegration of initial self; thus unhappiness.
Happiness is easy, it's just fulfillment of the few basic needs.... I believe animals are naturally happy and we should show more maturity then them(although human being is young in it's evolutionnary process.)
What i see here is the mind wanting to gain greatness/power beyond the realm of biological limits(beyond human condition and beyond human life trajectory and natural growth!)... which is a stress I view as uncompatible with the current definition of happiness.

 

[McBean]

I'm often torn b/w the two and at 23 I feel I have the choice but have to make it within the next year. I'll be graduating college and am unsure whether I wanna pursue college football coaching or HS. Two vastly different lifestyles. One permitting more freedom and family time while the other provides more possible $ and possible fame. I'm currently a student coach for the football team at USM so the college thing is a possibility... I just have been back and forth on which lifestyle I prefer.

 

[Brontosaurie]

being great is just being better at pursuing happiness

 

[Philovitist]

@Nezaros

It never quite works out as planned. A piece of Thus Spoke Zarathustra that stuck with me: you're better off pursuing grief and hardship over rollicking good times. Lasting satisfaction usually comes from work and labored self-improvement rather than frivolous jollies. The pleasure from work is deeper than from play. Also, play leaves less in its wake than solid effort. Do you want to look back at yourself, in other words, as someone who ate ice cream, played video games and did little else?

It's still hedonism, though. You're just choosing one source of pleasure over another. You aren't changing the approacn to life, you're just taking it to level two.

Enlightened egoism is still egoism, etc.

 

[snafupants]

It's still hedonism, though. You're just choosing one source of pleasure over another. You aren't changing the approacn to life, you're just taking it to level two.

Enlightened egoism is still egoism, etc.

Hedonism is defined as the pursuit of pleasure or sensual self-indulgence.

I wouldn't necessarily deem work sensual self-indulgence; and by foregrounding the task, you are not directly pursuing pleasure.

There's no buffer when you directly pursue pleasure. For instance, eating ice cream for the joy and taste. One can eat nutritious foods that taste good for another reason aside from hedonistic rapture.

For instance, swimmers eat upwards of 5,000 calories per day to compensate for their workouts. It's not hedonism per se. They're eating to replace burned calories.

 

[phantom]

I'm glad someone mentioned Aristotle so that I don't have to. But I think a clarification may be in order... the Aristotelian (and more generally Greek/medieval) concept of "happiness" does not mean an emotion or a state of pleasure or even contentment in a situational, psychological sense. Our goal is that at which we aim, and so it is our telos or proper end; it is the culmination and possession of our proper nature and function. When we say our goal is happiness, we mean that "happiness" means being in that state which is our proper end. Furthermore, since happiness in this sense has to do with our proper being and not our "wants" or "goals" in a subjective sense, this means that there is an objective fact about who has and has not achieved degrees of happiness, and one's happiness has nothing to do with what one takes oneself to be trying to achieve. We can be wrong about what we think our happiness consists in. Aristotelian "happiness" means a flourishing of human nature, being the right sort of person, and more specifically possessing virtue or proper disposition of the will. It absolutely does *not* mean hedonism or anything like hedonism...in fact a proper Aristotelian (or Thomist - the medieval philosophers including Thomas Aquinas held this view as well) would say that a hedonist is very UNhappy because the end of humans is not simply to enjoy bodily pleasure, and such a person is living a very superficial life and is lacking in some of the important traits of a well-functioning human.

Sorry this is so disjointed...I am a bit jet lagged and need to go to bed.