Opening yourself up!

[Dimensional Transition]

It kind of feels like I can't get really close to anybody other than other INTPs(who are rather rare). Sound familiar?

I have a few pretty good friends, yet I still feel this certain gap between me and them, except for my one best friend, an INTP. It feels like he's the only one who knows what I'm talking about when I'm talking about peculiar observations, Fi feelings, et cetera et cetera. The other friends just seem to think it's funny and a little weird, and just kind of accept me as the goofy guy in their friend circle.

I'm really trying to somehow open up myself more to others so I will seem less boring and/or weird... But it's pretty damn scary. I just don't really know what to expect.
It's like I can predict people's reactions pretty well, except for when those people are my conversation partners.

Eh this probably sounds a little more dramatic than it is(Very common thing for me to do on the internet... For some reason my writings will just sound almost theatrical sometimes.), really, but I was wondering about it and felt the need to put it on here for some reason.

 

[Bird]

I have this problem as well.


I think it's because I have a special set of
demands on others.

 

[DirtyBit]

Socialization does, and indeed only can, take place on a plane with a foundation of generally accepted beliefs, values and norms. I feel that one's stereotypical INTP has a different understanding of what those beliefs, values and norms either are or ought to be, which prevents him or her from really being able to connect to others on their plane.

 

[EmergingAlbert]

I have this problem too. I have very few CLOSE friends. The person to whom I'm closest is my girlfriend, a hardcore ENFP. It has taken a DANG LOT of hard work to get this close to her, and I'm still not as close to her as I could be. I feel like she constantly wants MORE from me, and I can't help but think, "Why can't you just be happy with what you've got of me? I've given you more of myself than I ever thought I would!!!" It's amazing how open she is, not only with me, but also with everyone. She is so transparent with people, it blows my mind.

 

[ElvenVeil]

the reason you put it here is because you have a simple human need ; the need to share with others. In this case it is your feelings that you need to share and what better place to go than to the place where we have the greatest chance of being understood; the INTP forum.

I don't think it is nice necessarily productive for you to share feelings with your friends (as friendship does not determine if they understand), but it is a good idea to share with some.. therefore it would be a good idea to share it with the INTP forum, if you have anything important to share-

 

[EmergingAlbert]

EV, I have found in the few days I have been here that it is pretty easy to open up to fellow INTP's. I only know one other INTP, and I wouldn't really consider him a "friend." He's just an acquaintance, and I don't particularly like him either, unfortunately. It is hilarious to read some of these posts because of what some people say, especially the nerdy/intellectual things. Sometimes I just crack up and say to myself, "I thought I was the only person who thinks like that!!!"

 

[mke2686]

It kind of feels like I can't get really close to anybody other than other INTPs(who are rather rare). Sound familiar?

I have a few pretty good friends, yet I still feel this certain gap between me and them, except for my one best friend, an INTP. It feels like he's the only one who knows what I'm talking about when I'm talking about peculiar observations, Fi feelings, et cetera et cetera. The other friends just seem to think it's funny and a little weird, and just kind of accept me as the goofy guy in their friend circle.

I'm really trying to somehow open up myself more to others so I will seem less boring and/or weird... But it's pretty damn scary. I just don't really know what to expect.
It's like I can predict people's reactions pretty well, except for when those people are my conversation partners.

Eh this probably sounds a little more dramatic than it is(Very common thing for me to do on the internet... For some reason my writings will just sound almost theatrical sometimes.), really, but I was wondering about it and felt the need to put it on here for some reason.

expect judgement, the ones who dont judge are the ones worth being friends with.

 

[snafupants]

only females should open themselves up in my opinion.

 

[Hadoblado]

I'm open with just about everything, with anyone who'll stop to listen, so long as they're within my comfort zone. This is particularly evident of late with my current obsession of self identity and definition. I'm actually thinking about taking steps to shut myself up, just so that I can say I hold something in reserve.
I'd say most of my friends find me pretty predictable, except for the strong sensors, who can seem to think me of some mysterious social enigma (the poor fools).
Wait, what was the question?

 

[EmergingAlbert]

Interesting...are you a borderline ENTP?

 

[Hadoblado]

Nope, it's only with people I'm very comfortable with, and it's a relatively recent advancement that's not completely natural to me. I exaggerated who I talk to, it's pretty much only the people who I live with.

 

[cheese]

After being on Yeti's BDSM thread, all I can think about on reading your thread title is knives, flesh and a sewing kit.

Wasn't it you who did some other emotional thread? About being seen as the bad, insensitive guy because what you say doesn't come out right to the people around you?

Anyway, the number of people who will 'really get' you in your life is likely to be really small. Considering INTPs are generally a little odd, it's likely to be even smaller than for normal people. Don't be disheartened; it's not you. Or at least it's not just you.

 

[EmergingAlbert]

I see. I would guess that probably was a difficult transition. I know it would be for me.

 

[shoeless]

if you're afraid of judgment it's not possible to open yourself up.

abandon fear. then you're free to do whatever you damn well please.

sometimes the easiest way to become close to somebody is to approach from a detached position.

 

[Dimensional Transition]

After being on Yeti's BDSM thread, all I can think about on reading your thread title is knives, flesh and a sewing kit.

Wasn't it you who did some other emotional thread? About being seen as the bad, insensitive guy because what you say doesn't come out right to the people around you?

Anyway, the number of people who will 'really get' you in your life is likely to be really small. Considering INTPs are generally a little odd, it's likely to be even smaller than for normal people. Don't be disheartened; it's not you. Or at least it's not just you.

Yeah. I think I might be a borderline INFP. Or am I just an INTP with a strongly developed Fi? Hmf.

But yeah. It still kind of sucks that the people you really feel close to are always so rare.
How are you to abandon fear?

 

[Puffy]

I don't think you can reason (much) with fear. For example I have an irrational fear of spiders, because when I was young my Mother would always scream when she saw them, now I can't go near them. I can't rationalise the fear away, I know they can't hurt me (in the UK) and I know why I am scared of them, yet when one is near I physically can't go near it. If I really wanted to deal with that fear the only way I could would be to just force myself to pick it up. I have no reason to as spiders are rare and I am comfortable catching them in cups now to put outside, but that is just an example.

With socialising it is just something you gradually get better at as you practise more. It's by being involved with other people that you start to become more comfortable and able to be more honest. INTPs have a certain charm to them anyway, I am sure you will be fine.

And I agree with Cheese, I find it very rare that I find someone who I feel genuinely connected to. So far I have only met a few people; what I found for a while though was that this consequently made me set the bar too high for people I would consider friends which meant people didn't meet my expectations and I had less general contact. I don't think there is anything wrong with accepting friendships which might be more superficial than your closest friends. Human contact is healthy and ultimately makes it easier for you socialising in different friendship groups.

Acting helps as well - it did for me anyway. So much Ni peeps in drama.

 

[Dimensional Transition]

What is this INTP charm you speak of? I've heard this before but I can't really think of anything other than childish needs/behaviours at times and acting a little crazy but in a funny way... Is this really charming?

But yeah, I can socialize, it's more just this certain connection I kind of miss sometimes.

As a matter of fact, I am in a drama club! I've played in a few plays, most small, one big. At the moment we're focusing more on improvisation drama contests with other groups and such.
I'm best at the more absurdist, physical roles. Although I can play seriously, I kind of avoid those serious roles... they're just not that fun, I tend to really get into my character, so when I play someone who is being abused or whatever I'll just feel really, really sad for a while.

 

[Lobstrich]

I don't exactly think it's scary to open myself up, I don't have a problem tell people who I am, what I believe, what I think is okay what I think is not okay, my politic views, etc.

I just have a hard time really connecting to people. Just like you mentioned, I feel there's this gap. I even feel this with my closest friend, unlike you. I'm keeping the hope up, someday I'll meet someone who truly accepts me (which I think is the problem in most cases, where I can't connect to people)

 

[Lobstrich]

What is this INTP charm you speak of? I've heard this before but I can't really think of anything other than childish needs/behaviours at times and acting a little crazy but in a funny way... Is this really charming?

I've been told more times than I can kind that my speech, facial expressions, body language and of course just my general way of acting is very charming. I know what to say and what not to say. Abiding to those things, is a nother thing, hehe.

Most of you will probably have a hard time believing this, as I doubt that I'm very charming on this forum, (I think it's generally very difficult to be charming through text, there's so much more than what you say to it) rather the obvious.

 

[Dimensional Transition]

Really? I always thought the INTP body language and facial expressions were always seen as a bit nervous and spaced-out.
That's how I feel what I look like, that is. I always have my hands in my pockets, too. I can't stand the feeling of my arms just 'hanging there'. It's like when I let them hang next to my body, I realize I can't actually feel my arms, just the air gently sliding past them. When I have my hands in my pockets it's like I get a confirmation I still have them and their senses...

But to answer your first post: That really must feel awful, I think I know what you mean, I mean, there's always a certain gap with everyone as they're actually different people haha. But do you even feel a substantial gap with your best friends? I mean, sure, I occasionally feel some sort of distance too as everybody's different, but I would say I do feel some sort of connection to my best friend. Although that connection is kind of fading... Should hang out with him more often.

 

[Lobstrich]

Really? I always thought the INTP body language and facial expressions were always seen as a bit nervous and spaced-out.
That's how I feel what I look like, that is. I always have my hands in my pockets, too. I can't stand the feeling of my arms just 'hanging there'. It's like when I let them hang next to my body, I realize I can't actually feel my arms, just the air gently sliding past them. When I have my hands in my pockets it's like I get a confirmation I still have them and their senses...

But to answer your first post: That really must feel awful, I think I know what you mean, I mean, there's always a certain gap with everyone as they're actually different people haha. But do you even feel a substantial gap with your best friends? I mean, sure, I occasionally feel some sort of distance too as everybody's different, but I would say I do feel some sort of connection to my best friend. Although that connection is kind of fading... Should hang out with him more often.

My charm only "shines through" when I'm engaged in a conversation that I find interesting. Alot of peple told me that I look sad or angry when I'm not talking (which is true) I'm always getting asked "Why are you so angry?" So I don't think I stray too far from the flock in the facial expressions.

Yeah, I do feel a gap. Even with my mother, sister and brother. And as I mentioned, my best friend. I just posted in another threat, by "Hadeblado" called "Help!" Where I explain what I see as the "ultimate friendship" so I'll just copy paste it

"About the Disney moments. Yes, they are rare, some might even call such relationships romantic exaggeration. I would disagree though. They are the ultimate form of friendship 100% trust 100% integrity 100% honesty. I'm not saying it's the perfect friendship (because I don't think there is such a thing, as perfect) There will always be disagreements and even arguements. "

"Disney Moments" as Hado called them, was the situation where two friends were 100% honest with each other, regardless of consequence. And through that they ended up as lifetime allies and most trusted friends.
But it's a little out of context, but you get what I'm saying, I assume.

And I have yet to find such a relationship. Which is why I think I feel this gap. I have not met a person with such a black/white view of truth combined with a no-compromise approach to being honest with each other.
To be honest, the person I feel most connected with right now. Is my teacher and mentor (Check "Mentorship" thread, hehe) But that's not realy for the honesty. That's because he's a die-hard 'fan' of thesis+antithesis = synthesis just like I am. We have endless debates where most other people would get annoyed and go "Jesus fucking christ, what does it fucking matter?! Just leave it the fuck alone!" (Multiple fucks are necessary.. Authenticity, heh) Even my best friend is not a very large fan of debates. He's actually not very good with any sort of conflict. The minute two people disagree he just thinks "Why are you fighting?!" Well, I don't know what he thinks, but that's his attitude towards conflict, in general. He's very "F'ey"

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Here you go DMT:

I'll need em back when you're done.

 

[Dimensional Transition]

My charm only "shines through" when I'm engaged in a conversation that I find interesting. Alot of peple told me that I look sad or angry when I'm not talking (which is true) I'm always getting asked "Why are you so angry?" So I don't think I stray too far from the flock in the facial expressions.

Oh, I see... I don't get how that can be charming to others, really. But don't worry I do it too, it's not like I'm saying it's completely un-charming, but... you know... I don't get what's charming about our 'INTENSE' conversations :P

As for the rest, I do get what you mean now. I think I am in about the same situation, except with only a very very minimal gap with my best friend.

Here you go DMT:

I'll need em back when you're done.

Noice

 

[Wizardry]

It is rather hard to open up to people, in general. If you gush about your personal details you risk the person spreading your business around and /or them using it against you later or just SOMETHING. Most people don't think enough before they speak. There are a lot of methods to get people to like you and want to be around you. You just act like a person that other people want to be around. What do most people want to be around? They like the funny guy who seems to be enjoying life and makes them laugh and feel good. Ways to attract? Smile a lot and make up random witty things that most everyone can find funny and make yourself seem dumber or incompetent somehow.

Anyway, I've been at both ends of the spectrum. I was closed off and distant when younger and had a brief period where I became social in college and mostly found the results lackluster. I had people around me but there was absolutely no pleasure to be had from their presence and the constant demands were draining. Suddenly your "friend" wants you to help them move, watch their kids, help them paint their house, or they expect you to go out every other night to do things.

 

[digital angel]

It kind of feels like I can't get really close to anybody other than other INTPs(who are rather rare). Sound familiar?

I have a few pretty good friends, yet I still feel this certain gap between me and them, except for my one best friend, an INTP. It feels like he's the only one who knows what I'm talking about when I'm talking about peculiar observations, Fi feelings, et cetera et cetera. The other friends just seem to think it's funny and a little weird, and just kind of accept me as the goofy guy in their friend circle.

I'm really trying to somehow open up myself more to others so I will seem less boring and/or weird... But it's pretty damn scary. I just don't really know what to expect.
It's like I can predict people's reactions pretty well, except for when those people are my conversation partners.

Eh this probably sounds a little more dramatic than it is(Very common thing for me to do on the internet... For some reason my writings will just sound almost theatrical sometimes.), really, but I was wondering about it and felt the need to put it on here for some reason.

Perhaps there's a reason why it feels like your INTP friend is the only one who understands. Give yourself time to open up. I highly doubt you're boring or weird. Remember, you're a smart person.

 

[Lobstrich]

There are a lot of methods to get people to like you and want to be around you. You just act like a person that other people want to be around. What do most people want to be around? They like the funny guy who seems to be enjoying life and makes them laugh and feel good. Ways to attract? Smile a lot and make up random witty things that most everyone can find funny and make yourself seem dumber or incompetent somehow.

So you're basically saying that we should fake ourselves? I'd rather be the guy nobody likes than the guy everybody likes. (for something which I'm not)

 

[Lobstrich]

Remember, you're a smart person.

How do you know? How do you know that I'm smart? Or that Wizardry is smart?

 

[GYX_Kid]

you just discuss things. most people do small talk about "things". eventually you get comfortable enough with the activity and learn how to touch up your inputs with personal relation and attitudes to whatever is being discussed, which if you're intp should be more often substantially interesting than boring, unless you really just don't give 2 shits about the current substance/people.

 

[Dimensional Transition]

She/he's only trying to help us out.

Most people on this forum are smarter than average, or that's what I like to think anyways.

Eh, I can't really think of any good replies anymore, but I'm still reading it all and finding it interesting.

 

[digital angel]

How do you know? How do you know that I'm smart? Or that Wizardry is smart?

Why are you debating the issue?

 

[Lobstrich]

Why are you debating the issue?

I'm just curious how you came to the conclusion. Nothing more.

 

[Wizardry]

So you're basically saying that we should fake ourselves? I'd rather be the guy nobody likes than the guy everybody likes. (for something which I'm not)

That all sort of depends on your goals vs your self pride vs your natural mood chemistry (which fluctuates). If your goal is to be liked by a lot of people you need to be a likable person. People like being around people that make them feel good which makes sense. I mean you don't want to be around a person that makes you miserable right? If your goal is to only act according to your body chemistry + current thought process and somehow get the one or two stray folks that like you as is then you be that guy. For myself I decided it was selfish for me to always act according to how my body/mood wanted me to act. I was needlessly causing a lot of negativity to people who didn't deserve it.

In college I was genuinely happy since I escaped my step dad and enjoyed the courses. I felt more social and I became someone that people apparently liked after an entire high school of being a loner. I have no patience with "faking" myself but I have learned not to give in to my irrational anger/sadness that stays constant. That is a conscious choice on my part because I don't want to be angry or sad and I don't want that nonsense to negatively affect other people. Don't always have control over that though so I might go two months being an asshole to everyone then a whole month where I'm feeling good and cracking jokes. Both forms of this are me.

There are a bunch of things I am legitimately incompetent at so that doesn't seem fake either. Just before I wouldn't mention them at all. People would take it as I had no flaws or weakness, or maybe that I thought I had no flaws or weakness? I got called stuck up and arrogant a lot, which isn't the case. I took that to mean I wasn't representing myself properly. Lot of people project whatever insecurities they have onto you. I guess a better way of wording it would be not to take yourself too seriously all the time and be able to laugh at yourself.

I only shared the experience so the OP could have some things to think about.
Maybe he wants to be that sort of guy? I mean you get a thought in your head you can basically re-invent yourself if you wish it, if you have the proper motivation. It can be challenging because of neurotransmitters, its hard trying to be cheerful when your body is telling you its depressed. I prefer to do my best not to give in to the depression. I get sunshine, exercise, a whole list of things. Only a truly stupid animal wants to stay depressed and miserable (<--comment not directed at anyone, just a general rule for myself).

 

[ElvenVeil]

I think this is being regarded the wrong way, if the OP's description is being taken as 'borderline F' . . Imo there is nothing there that suggests borderline F.. Rather a confirmation of the INTP personlity.
Now people are ofc individuals, and there are many different INTP's. That these thoughts run through your head is, imo, just a healthy sign that you are more connected to the real world than other INTPs are.
I also think it is fine if you dismiss some of your own inputs when getting closer to others (establishing a connection) . . What Lobstrich suggests/tells about himself , is not a thing I would advice (obviously(also this is not dirrected at you Lobstrichs , I merely use you as an example)) , as it shows some sort of rigid stance. It is the all or nothing attitude, and that is really not getting one anywhere. In the process of getting closer and to understand others as a somewhat strange individuel (INTP) there can be a lot of learning involved in opening up and create some connection.
After all , even though you(we) can safely say that they don't understand you , it goes both ways. You don't understand them either, and therefore the rigid stance is not a good one to take if your goal is to learn.
I hope this is still somewhat related to the Op
[Yaih for somewhat neutral statements]

That's how I feel what I look like, that is. I always have my hands in my pockets, too. I can't stand the feeling of my arms just 'hanging there'. It's like when I let them hang next to my body, I realize I can't actually feel my arms, just the air gently sliding past them. When I have my hands in my pockets it's like I get a confirmation I still have them and their senses... .

hehe.. I almost always have my hands in my pocket as well.. it is just more comfortable that way

only females should open themselves up in my opinion.

 

[xbox]

My charm only "shines through" when I'm engaged in a conversation that I find interesting. Alot of peple told me that I look sad or angry when I'm not talking (which is true) I'm always getting asked "Why are you so angry?" So I don't think I stray too far from the flock in the facial expressions.

Yeah, I do feel a gap. Even with my mother, sister and brother. And as I mentioned, my best friend. I just posted in another threat, by "Hadeblado" called "Help!" Where I explain what I see as the "ultimate friendship" so I'll just copy paste it

"About the Disney moments. Yes, they are rare, some might even call such relationships romantic exaggeration. I would disagree though. They are the ultimate form of friendship 100% trust 100% integrity 100% honesty. I'm not saying it's the perfect friendship (because I don't think there is such a thing, as perfect) There will always be disagreements and even arguements. "

"Disney Moments" as Hado called them, was the situation where two friends were 100% honest with each other, regardless of consequence. And through that they ended up as lifetime allies and most trusted friends.
But it's a little out of context, but you get what I'm saying, I assume.

And I have yet to find such a relationship. Which is why I think I feel this gap. I have not met a person with such a black/white view of truth combined with a no-compromise approach to being honest with each other.
To be honest, the person I feel most connected with right now. Is my teacher and mentor (Check "Mentorship" thread, hehe) But that's not realy for the honesty. That's because he's a die-hard 'fan' of thesis+antithesis = synthesis just like I am. We have endless debates where most other people would get annoyed and go "Jesus fucking christ, what does it fucking matter?! Just leave it the fuck alone!" (Multiple fucks are necessary.. Authenticity, heh) Even my best friend is not a very large fan of debates. He's actually not very good with any sort of conflict. The minute two people disagree he just thinks "Why are you fighting?!" Well, I don't know what he thinks, but that's his attitude towards conflict, in general. He's very "F'ey"

Haha that was just like reading a description about me.

People think I'm anti-social (that word is used to described sociopaths ), but they probably just get confused with introvertedness.

I've been described as a shell, I refuse to open up, and if I do, I only let out information after intense mental processing of whether I should even open my mouth to let my opinions known.

I have found quite a connection with rare INTPs, like my brother, and we often engage in seriously in-depth, mentally stimulating debates, and get so technical that we annoy the heck out of each other. But not in a bad way. People around stare and wonder what the hell is going on, but in the end we appreciate each other's input. We can even clear out a room, because most people don't care about what we debate about. Usually we end up saying to each other "why are you being so technical??" "No you're being technical!" To them it's annoying, but to us it's engaging. By the end we both leave pretty knowledgeable about the topics. haha

I usually don't act like this with anyone else, like my ESFJ roommate. She is the complete opposite of me. The only reason we get along is because of my intense capacity of patience haha. She will go on about her point of view, and I would zone her out while being on my laptop. Then she would poke and prod for my point of view on topics, but I just don't care to talk to her. To her it's either her way or the highway, so I figure I won't waste my ATP and mental strength on someone who's mind is made up. I don't find those conversations engaging, just tiresome, and make me feel like pointing a gun to my head. (She can talk for hours non-stop).

By the way I'm a girl for those people who think I'm a dude. I'm not one for co-ed rooming.

 

[Lobstrich]

That all sort of depends on your goals vs your self pride vs your natural mood chemistry (which fluctuates). If your goal is to be liked by a lot of people you need to be a likable person. People like being around people that make them feel good which makes sense. I mean you don't want to be around a person that makes you miserable right? If your goal is to only act according to your body chemistry + current thought process and somehow get the one or two stray folks that like you as is then you be that guy. For myself I decided it was selfish for me to always act according to how my body/mood wanted me to act.

In my opinion it's selfish to fake yourself. If you acted to me as you thought I'd want you to be. I'd not only get angry, I'd get offended and sad that you would lie to me in such a degree. And you would probably not be my friend. Well, remove the probably. You wouldn't be. I really really, really. Have no respect for dishonesty.

I'm not trying to act all better though (Even though, I admitedly, do think that on this matter, that I am better. But I think we all do that. We think our opinions are better) I'm just telling you what's on my mind, like you are =)

 

[Lobstrich]

By the way I'm a girl for those people who think I'm a dude. I'm not one for co-ed rooming.

Hehe, funny you should say that. I was thinking exactly "Why the heck not just talk to her?" The minute you mentioned a girl. Second thought was "male/female roommates?? Which college?!" Yeah, I'm a loser, haha.

 

[Wizardry]

In my opinion it's selfish to fake yourself. If you acted to me as you thought I'd want you to be. I'd not only get angry, I'd get offended and sad that you would lie to me in such a degree. And you would probably not be my friend. Well, remove the probably. You wouldn't be. I really really, really. Have no respect for dishonesty.

I'm not trying to act all better though (Even though, I admitedly, do think that on this matter, that I am better. But I think we all do that. We think our opinions are better) I'm just telling you what's on my mind, like you are =)

It isn't faking yourself if you consciously decide how to operate in society/ life, some call it being disciplined. It isn't dishonest if you (honestly) think your current mode of operating is that of an asshole and you don't want to be an asshole. You would think it was selfish of me to take my anger out on you. I'm angry about something someone else did but you have to deal with me being an angry bitch (which was what I was doing, if you want to focus on me here). It is faking yourself if you are a dentist by profession and claim to be a race car driver. Its faking yourself if you are a firm Baptist Christian but claim to be Mormon. Its a conscious choice to go from an angry bitch/ brat to someone more reserved and controlled so long as you stay consistent, imo.

Otherwise, I was sharing the detached methodology or the theory work for maximizing the amount of potential friends a person can attract. Some of it observed and some I figured out on accident. Doesn't mean I agree with all the aspects of socializing personally. I can offer views and not be all that attached or all emotional about it.

 

[Lobstrich]

It isn't faking yourself if you consciously decide how to operate in society/ life, some call it being disciplined. It isn't dishonest if you (honestly) think your current mode of operating is that of an asshole and you don't want to be an asshole. You would think it was selfish of me to take my anger out on you. I'm angry about something someone else did but you have to deal with me being an angry bitch (which was what I was doing, if you want to focus on me here). It is faking yourself if you are a dentist by profession and claim to be a race car driver. Its faking yourself if you are a firm Baptist Christian but claim to be Mormon. Its a conscious choice to go from an angry bitch/ brat to someone more reserved and controlled so long as you stay consistent, imo.

Otherwise, I was sharing the detached methodology or the theory work for maximizing the amount of potential friends a person can attract. Some of it observed and some I figured out on accident. Doesn't mean I agree with all the aspects of socializing personally. I can offer views and not be all that attached or all emotional about it.

I know you were sharing. So am I. But I'd still disagree. You're acting as a "nice guy" to be liked instead of acting like your 'body tells you to' Which is in my opinion. Faking yourself. I don't think you're not lying if you stay consistent. Would the mormon not be lying if he had told everyone his entire life, that he's a mormon? Just because you've went your entire life and conformed to be liked. Doesn't change the fact that if you weren't trying to be liked. You would act otherwhise, you said it yourself.

 

[cheese]

^You might also choose not to hurt people with your moods because you care about them?

For instance, what if a drunk, violent man comes home and starts beating his wife because his body tells him to? Should he do it or risk being fake?

Maybe you have a problem with sucking up to people by presenting a dishonest front. But I think that's different to hiding some of the negativity present in you in order not to hurt them, unless it's directly related to them. Even then, it can be about sparing them unnecessary details (if it doesn't achieve a goal, it could be considered unnecessary) in order to spare their feelings - not to increase your worth in their eyes, but simply because you'd rather see them not hurt.

 

[Lobstrich]

For instance, what if a drunk, violent man comes home and starts beating his wife because his body tells him to? Should he do it or risk being fake?

Couldn't help but laugh. I get what you're saying though, and I agree. I agree because that wasn't what I was saying.

Maybe you have a problem with sucking up to people by presenting a dishonest front. But I think that's different to hiding some of the negativity present in you in order not to hurt them, unless it's directly related to them. Even then, it can be about sparing them unnecessary details (if it doesn't achieve a goal, it could be considered unnecessary) in order to spare their feelings - not to increase your worth in their eyes, but simply because you'd rather see them not hurt.

Yes, I have a problem with dishonesty. I'd rather my 'friend' told me that he did not like me than act as if he did. I'd rather that my classmate told me his honest opinion on my work than go "Yeah, that's amazing!"
The example you came with, the husband. I don't really think that's about being honest. That's the same as thinking that if I were in a store and I had a massive need for a bathroom but I would just hold myself until I got home, I would be faking myself? That doesn't make any sense.

Not hitting your wife is just 'being nice' it has nothing to do with honesty and dishonesty.

EDIT: Unnecessary details, that's subjective. Someone might think that alot of stuff is unnecessary. Another person might think that a whole lot of stuff is necessary, like me.

 

[cheese]

It *is* about being honest! He wants to hit her because he's angry and his inhibitions are lowered. Should he artificially raise them in order to avoid hurting her? He hates her in the moment, he thinks she's dirt, she's worthless, she's disrespectful. Should he say all these things? What about paedophiles? Should they follow their instincts and molest little kids? They'd just be acting how their "bodies tell them" to! If they refused to look lustfully at kids, or flirt with them, or show they were attracted to them, wouldn't that be dishonest? What if you're in love with your best friend's wife? Should you go tell her? Should you show your love in a very obvious way - make eyes at her, flirt with her, rub up against her? Look at her longingly? These are all natural ways of expressing yourself, but some would choose to rein it in and try to avoid displaying these tell-tale signs - lying by behaviour - because it might create problems and they don't want to do that to the couple. They might choose to work on it themselves, try to get rid of the feelings, move away, whatever.

All I'm saying is there's a difference between sucking up to someone, and avoiding hurting them. The above examples are different to telling someone you think they're really funny when you don't because you want to be liked by everyone. One's other-centred, one's self-centred.

I think what you're saying is you'd rather hear harsh truths than have them honeyed over. It sounds like it's even about courage - that you wish people had enough balls to walk into personally painful situations, and that you wish they knew you had the balls to stomach it. But that's different from walking into unnecessary situations. Which are subjective, perhaps.

And you can't pull the 'being nice' argument, cmon. Some people think being a little less harsh in their criticism than they would uncensored is being nice. Some people have told me explicitly they'd rather not hear nasty truths about themselves. Being brutally honest with them just pisses them off.

Maybe you mean we should all be as mean as we want verbally, as long as we refrain from physical harm, even if that is being dishonest to our desires. What if you want to suck up to someone even though you hate them? You need their approval, but every time you see them you want to punch them in the face? Is it ok to tell them you hate them, but not to punch them? You're just doing what your body tells you to! Ok, maybe I'm misinterpreting that little phrase of yours. Could you provide another?

 

[a detached retina]

It *is* about being honest! He wants to hit her because he's angry and his inhibitions are lowered. Should he artificially raise them in order to avoid hurting her? He hates her in the moment, he thinks she's dirt, she's worthless, she's disrespectful. Should he say all these things? What about paedophiles? Should they follow their instincts and molest little kids? They'd just be acting how their "bodies tell them" to! If they refused to look lustfully at kids, or flirt with them, or show they were attracted to them, wouldn't that be dishonest? What if you're in love with your best friend's wife? Should you go tell her? Should you show your love in a very obvious way - make eyes at her, flirt with her, rub up against her? Look at her longingly? These are all natural ways of expressing yourself, but some would choose to rein it in and try to avoid displaying these tell-tale signs - lying by behaviour - because it might create problems and they don't want to do that to the couple. They might choose to work on it themselves, try to get rid of the feelings, move away, whatever.

All I'm saying is there's a difference between sucking up to someone, and avoiding hurting them. The above examples are different to telling someone you think they're really funny when you don't because you want to be liked by everyone. One's other-centred, one's self-centred.

I think what you're saying is you'd rather hear harsh truths than have them honeyed over. It sounds like it's even about courage - that you wish people had enough balls to walk into personally painful situations, and that you wish they knew you had the balls to stomach it. But that's different from walking into unnecessary situations. Which are subjective, perhaps.

And you can't pull the 'being nice' argument, cmon. Some people think being a little less harsh in their criticism than they would uncensored is being nice. Some people have told me explicitly they'd rather not hear nasty truths about themselves. Being brutally honest with them just pisses them off.

Maybe you mean we should all be as mean as we want verbally, as long as we refrain from physical harm, even if that is being dishonest to our desires. What if you want to suck up to someone even though you hate them? You need their approval, but every time you see them you want to punch them in the face? Is it ok to tell them you hate them, but not to punch them? You're just doing what your body tells you to! Ok, maybe I'm misinterpreting that little phrase of yours. Could you provide another?

In my experience it is easier to adjust your attitudes about the way things should be than to adjust yourself to the requests of society at large.

What I mean is that people who have a hard time dealing with conflict view themselves as nice when it's typically just an insufficiency of courage. Similarly, people who have a hard time empathizing with others and maintaining some level of control over their emotions view themselves as honest when it's really just an insufficiency of patience.

No matter how you act you tend to see yourself as the good guy.

I myself tend to air on the side of being a pussy (in real life.)

I really don't think anybody knows for sure what the best course of action would be if say you got into a fight with your girlfriend. If you just let everything roll right off you you could be seen as a doormat but is it really necessary to spout out all of YOUR opinions of HER faults? Maybe you are wrong about those faults, maybe it IS necessary to always interrupt someone when they start to rant about the difference between functions and functionals. And then even if you do tell her what you think of her flaws, do you think she'll change? Either she already viewed these aspects of her personality as problems and she'll just get her feelings hurt or else she doesn't view these flaws as problems and she'll get defensive and upset.

The thing is that imo it's impossible to be "honest" about something that is external to you. If you say "you are a neat freak." that may or may not be true because the closest thing we have to a way to judge a statement like that is the opinion of the majority. But you could be honest if you said "I find it difficult to be as neat and cleanly as you." In this way you're actually being more honest and less offensive.

 

[Lobstrich]

It *is* about being honest! He wants to hit her because he's angry and his inhibitions are lowered. Should he artificially raise them in order to avoid hurting her? He hates her in the moment, he thinks she's dirt, she's worthless, she's disrespectful. Should he say all these things? What about paedophiles? Should they follow their instincts and molest little kids? They'd just be acting how their "bodies tell them" to! If they refused to look lustfully at kids, or flirt with them, or show they were attracted to them, wouldn't that be dishonest? What if you're in love with your best friend's wife? Should you go tell her? Should you show your love in a very obvious way - make eyes at her, flirt with her, rub up against her? Look at her longingly? These are all natural ways of expressing yourself, but some would choose to rein it in and try to avoid displaying these tell-tale signs - lying by behaviour - because it might create problems and they don't want to do that to the couple. They might choose to work on it themselves, try to get rid of the feelings, move away, whatever.

All I'm saying is there's a difference between sucking up to someone, and avoiding hurting them. The above examples are different to telling someone you think they're really funny when you don't because you want to be liked by everyone. One's other-centred, one's self-centred.

I think what you're saying is you'd rather hear harsh truths than have them honeyed over. It sounds like it's even about courage - that you wish people had enough balls to walk into personally painful situations, and that you wish they knew you had the balls to stomach it. But that's different from walking into unnecessary situations. Which are subjective, perhaps.

And you can't pull the 'being nice' argument, cmon. Some people think being a little less harsh in their criticism than they would uncensored is being nice. Some people have told me explicitly they'd rather not hear nasty truths about themselves. Being brutally honest with them just pisses them off.

Maybe you mean we should all be as mean as we want verbally, as long as we refrain from physical harm, even if that is being dishonest to our desires. What if you want to suck up to someone even though you hate them? You need their approval, but every time you see them you want to punch them in the face? Is it ok to tell them you hate them, but not to punch them? You're just doing what your body tells you to! Ok, maybe I'm misinterpreting that little phrase of yours. Could you provide another?

I disagree. I'm not going to debate why. Not because I don't think your feedback is relevant, it's interesting. I just hate to have text debates about things I want to debate verbally. (Like this one, because I think it's an interesting topic) I'm just too lazy I guess, sorry for being a buzzkill.

 

[cheese]

Nono, I actually hate it too. I was dreading coming back to this. So thanks!

 

[Zmaster]

"About the Disney moments. Yes, they are rare, some might even call such relationships romantic exaggeration. I would disagree though. They are the ultimate form of friendship 100% trust 100% integrity 100% honesty. I'm not saying it's the perfect friendship (because I don't think there is such a thing, as perfect) There will always be disagreements and even arguements. "

There are no Disney moments and I work for Disney. I once took 8 months to try to warm up to a coworker and after asking her if she would teach me Yoga, I got slapped with a harrasment charge with HR. Now I have a file that prohibts me from discussing religion, politics or (of all things) Magick with anyone that works for Disney regardless of whether I'm at work or not. Watch your back jack !!!

 

[Wizardry]

I still don't see how its being dishonest. I'm mad at person A and my body is pumping out aggression. I take my frustrations out on person B. I have no problem with person B and they aren't the reason I'm angry in the first place. Few months living in a new house and I was relaxed most the time. I wasn't being attacked everyday so I was naturally more calm and a side effect was more people found me approachable and even "nice". If you were pissed off about something and directing your anger out on me...well, I would just laugh personally. I'd call you out on it though and maybe cut the conversation short. Most people don't operate that way and it hurts their feelings really badly.


If I hated person B's guts but was smiling happily to their face, it would be dishonest. If they somehow pissed me off but I smiled and went along with it, that is dishonest. If I try to go along with their views and I don't believe in those views, that is dishonest. In job situations though that is usually unavoidable unless you want to get fired. My last job they wanted me to push some software package really hard that were all programs I would never use. People who didn't sell enough weren't considered "productive" so they cut them after 6 months. I quit the job because of the bullshit.

I don't really care if you agree or not, I just don't see how its being dishonest to practice a little self control.

Cheese- I would make a simple debate out of it but replied that you didn't want to discuss it so I won't dive into it. It is interesting though when you look at the neuroscience articles behind those modes of thinking. Altered reward circuitry, lack of key hormones so certain emotion centers of the brain never fully come online...all fascinating stuff. Much more interesting to study up on other primates, like chimpanze vs gibbon.

Zmaster- How the hell is it considered harassment to ask to be taught yoga? Did she think you were insinuating something else? Maybe you could make a case and counter it and even if you accomplish little you could maybe clear your name.

 

[Lobstrich]

Zmaster- How the hell is it considered harassment to ask to be taught yoga? Did she think you were insinuating something else? Maybe you could make a case and counter it and even if you accomplish little you could maybe clear your name.

I don't think he was being serious.

 

[Zmaster]

People often fear what they don't understand. Don't let the smiling faces fool you. Actors are the best at deception. However, I have shields even they can't touch. The Father of modern magick wrote this in the poem titled Dionysus:

I kindle a flame like a torrent
To rush from star to star;
Your hair as a comet’s horrent,
Ye shall see things as they are!
I lift the mask of matter;
I open the heart of man;
For I am of force to shatter
The cast that hideth -Pan!

 

[Zmaster]

Oh and don't worry I was telling the truth or at least the portion of it i'm allowed to reveal. But I did get what I interpret as a very clever apology crafted in such a way so that the other person involved would not lose face. I quote " I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."Which begs the question does the responsibility of communication fall on the speaker or the listener? True Love which is a fallacy in my opinion can only exist when 2 persons communicate on all levels with no distortion. But if they are the same on every level doesn't that assume that they are the same and therefore the same Being in a relative sort of way ?

 

[Melkor]

I try not to open myself up because then I'd be very prone to disease and infection from airborne sources.
If I'm going to cut myself I at least do it in an inconspicious place and bandage it up afterwards. It's all science gentlemen.