On why we work and the nature of reality

[sushi]

my hypothesis is that reality is fundamentally made of space and information.

when i use energy, energy and work -->space and information.

One can say the very purpose of human work is creating information and space.

For instance, when I write and type stuff, I convert my energy and thought into space and information. When i move stuff to build something, I convert my energy into space and information.

Another example is a closed empty room with only one desk and 3 chairs with me inside . I work and move around the 3 chairs and 1 desk into various different position and patterns inside the room, creating new space and information.

At the end of every day, I always have more information than yesterday, but less usable energy. Energy thus become new space and information.

Agree or disagree.

 

[Hadoblado]

By the standard you use to narrow everything down into either space or information, how is space not information?

 

[sushi]

By the standard you use to narrow everything down into either space or information, how is space not information?

I don't want to say space is same as information, because information is a content of space .

Otherwise I don't know what the ultimate purpose of human work and action (other than make money), unless anyone have different perspectives.

work is done to manipulate space and infromation to create a certain content.

 

[sushi]

My current hypothesis is that all work and motion----->information.

that is why is it inevitable that you are smarter at the end of the day than beginning.

 

[QuickTwist]

I was going to comment on something here but I am not quite sure what I have to add.

I am not sure whether I agree or not because I feel like it doesn't make any God damn sense, but let me attempt to make sense of this.

From what I know, work is the dissipation of energy. You can think about this as Watts. When energy is given off, this produces heat. Heat, in this case, is Watts. So when you overclock your processor, and as a consequence of this, the temperature of the processor goes up, what you are observing is that more work is being done by your processor.

This doesn't answer why the universe is expanding and cooling down, however. I tried to come up with an equation to represent your theory, but it's either too complicated for me to understand in algebraic terms OR it is not logically consistent with itself OR there is not enough information to formulate an Equation and I am leaning the latter.

Terms used:

Associated terms:
{work
energy
action
motion
thought}

{space
information
content}

I do not know where to go from here.

 

[sushi]

I was going to comment on something here but I am not quite sure what I have to add.

I am not sure whether I agree or not because I feel like it doesn't make any God damn sense, but let me attempt to make sense of this.

From what I know, work is the dissipation of energy. You can think about this as Watts. When energy is given off, this produces heat. Heat, in this case, is Watts. So when you overclock your processor, and as a consequence of this, the temperature of the processor goes up, what you are observing is that more work is being done by your processor.

err, I don't know how to say this.

I am not talking about the universe. I am talking about human activity and nature of work.
If you do not understand what I am saying, I will try to rephrase it as a question?

why do humans work , produce and create, other than for survival and satisfy our needs?what is the purpose of work? is work a meaningless activity?

but then on the ultimate nature of reality, i still believe it is space and information.

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

By the standard you use to narrow everything down into either space or information, how is space not information?

Because, Hado, you gotta have space to put all that information.

 

[sushi]

create , move , destroy (physical) information, that seems to be the case. otherwise on the activities seems to be meaningless.

 

[DoIMustHaveAnUsername?]

I have a really crazy theory ....reality is made of .....reality.

 

[Ex-User (14663)]

To me this looks like just swapping the meaning of words.

I think reality is made of cheese.

 

[computerhxr]

What you are talking about reminds me of the book Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill.

"The earth on which you live, you, yourself, and every other material thing are the result of evolutionary change, through which microscopic bits of matter have been organized and arranged in an orderly fashion." — Think and Grow Rich

"An intangible impulse of thought can be ‘transmuted’ into its physical counterpart." — Think and Grow Rich

The meaning of the word ‘transmute’ is, in simple language, ‘the changing or transferring of one element, or form of energy, into another’.

"In physics and chemistry, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system remains constant; it is said to be conserved over time. This law means that energy can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, it can only be transformed or transferred from one form to another." — Wikipedia

Essentially, what you are talking about is part of an evolutionary process of rearranging information, converting one form of energy to another. You are taking intangiable thought, through desired actions, manifesting tangible results. This is analogous to a potter and clay.

"This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: “Go down to the potter’s house, and there I will give you my message.” So I went down to the potter’s house, and I saw him working at the wheel. But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him." — Jeremiah 18

In Egyptian terms of the manifestation of pyramids and artifacts to please the gods.

We are just moving information around, changing from one form to another. Manifesting through evolutionary change, bringing to light new forms as products of time and history.

 

[Helvete]

The space contains the information but I don't see how one creates new space or information. I see a change to the space and information. In a room with 3 chairs and a desk you can rearrange the contents how you like but the space and information is the same, just in a reorganized state but there is nothing new which has been created.

This is currently a losing scenario as it costs energy.

If one rearranges the chairs into a new pattern and somebody pays them to do it then there is now some perceived value in doing so.

People work to live usually by profiting in what they do.

 

[onesteptwostep]

Hmm there seems to be a misconception here about what space and time are. In Kantian terms space-time is what we merely superimpose from our sensory perceptions. "Time" and "Space" doesn't exist in reality, but rather qualitative measures we impose upon reality.

I think the crux of the problems here is that somehow the mental transfers into the physical, i.e. that the substance of the mental and the substance of the physical are actually of one thing. It tries to bridge the Cartesian divide Descartes suggested and underlined. Spinoza thought this, that all things were of one substance, (i.e. that they are from God aka thus making him a pantheist) with infinite attributes, such as the physical, the mental or the spiritual and so on. Material monists such as Marxists or the logical positivists believe that only materials exist so their line of thinking would be more in the camp that 'information is energy', that the mental is in turn the physical.

 

[kora]

Not to be a dick but can we get a definition or a description of "information" in the sense you're using it here?

Also what do you make of entropy ?

 

[computerhxr]

Not to be a dick but can we get a definition or a description of "information" in the sense you're using it here?

Also what do you make of entropy ?

I can give my definition of information in context of the Universe. The following are my opinions...

All is information. The placement, trajectory, size, form, and every relative measure. Every possible manifestation, and every space between.

Entropy is a result of stasis in an isolated system. It's like a room full of dominoes standing erect in perfect uniform order. A small outside force is the catalyst to a chain reaction.

The effects of entropy are reduced by introducing small bits of energy into a system over time.

In terms of information, stasis is when all information in an isolated system are an agreement.

There is no truely perfectly uniform isolated system, only relatively uniform in context to the perspective of the observed system.

Systems of information ebb-and-flow, from isolation moving towards stasis, and influenced by outside information that creates flux in response, resulting in a ripple effect that normalizes to stabilize the mixtures of information.

Information generation is low as systems approach stasis, and high in systems in flux. It's all relative, given near duplicate copies of information is a result. Change is a constant expansion of information bringing new forms of the same, similar but never equal, accumulating down ancestral chains of records.

Flux is limited by the anchors of what we call laws, which hold things in order. Maths, physics, and reality persist. Psychology, pseudoscience, and energy are guided but not bound by persistent rules. E.g. Left and right, concrete and abstract, solid and liquid.

 

[moody]

@sushi : That makes sense to me! Sounds like a workable definition. My knee-jerk reaction is to challenge what "space" is, though. Information as we define it is already clear as human organization of our experiences (cerebral cortext just likes to give everything lables), so that's us. Space is everything that isn't. That's why it makes sense to me! Us + everything else = reality! (As we define it).

 

[sushi]

To all: I half dont know what I am talking about, so I need to do some more manual labor to find out the meaning of work other than following orders from some idiot.

but so far, i can reduce it to create move and destroy information.

Information: all the stuff that exist in reality and its organization shape, , form. like matter.

Traditional information is just language, words and data , numbers like 010010m but i think everything tanglible is made of information.

If you find my definiiton questionable, can you say what the meaning of work and producing is other than making a wage.

 

[QuickTwist]

To all: I half dont know what I am talking about, so I need to do some more manual labor to find out the meaning of work other than following orders from some idiot.

but so far, i can reduce it to create move and destroy information.

Information: all the stuff that exist in reality and its organization shape, , form. like matter.

Traditional information is just language, words and data , numbers like 010010m but i think everything tanglible is made of information.

If you find my definiiton questionable, can you say what the meaning of work and producing is other than making a wage.

I'm working on a similar problem atm. What I have found is that work is for the self-autonomous individual and that laziness is for the pathological thinker.

 

[Ex-User (14663)]

when we work, we reconfigure matter in a way which serves some purpose. Just the reconfiguration itself has no purpose. One can configure matter in a very intricate and complicated way but which nevertheless is useless (e.g. work produced by bureaucrats). So I would disagree that the purpose of human activity is to generate information. That's just an intermediary step towards an actual purpose.

 

[sushi]

my hypothesis is information is a state of matter, such as creation and destruction and moving.

when you change a matter's state or position, you change its information code or structure.

I am trying to imagine what kind of human work will be replaced by Artiificial intelligence and how they will copy our work and economic activites.

 

[sushi]

i think we work and move things just to change, create destroy matter and information.

energy+ work--> matter and information


it could mean that matter and information are one and the same

take the process of cooking (work) for example, the whole process is changing and manipulating the ingredients.

there is really no deeper purpose of work, than to change and move matter and information. Once again, I still need to do more physical labor to verfiy this.

 

[Rebis]

i think we work and move things just to change, create destroy matter and information.

energy+ work--> matter and information


it could mean that matter and information are one and the same

take the process of cooking (work) for example, the whole process is changing and manipulating the ingredients.

there is really no deeper purpose of work, than to change and move matter and information. Once again, I still need to do more physical labor to verfiy this.

Yes the ultimate purpose is complete control over our environment

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[ZenRaiden]

Well yes there is relationship between information and space in that we live in space thus information is about space.
I do not exactly see any super interesting point you are making.

 

[sushi]

work--> manipulate space matter information. i am not being interesting, i am trying to find answer and meaning of work is and why we engage in such activity, other than for economics and for my wage.

i thought this is only true on the computer screen and computer work, where everything is 2d, but it appears to be true in the real physical world and physical labor, (i need more tests). i make me question reality might be some sort of simulation. It makes me feel like playing minecraft.

 

[Haim]

The universe has no concept of meaning, we do, therefore you create meaning.
What you are doing is called personification, like thinking that a doll feel sad.
This rock is here because all of the actions that lead it to be here, not because of my non secret plan to rule the universe.

 

[Rook]

Ape bashes rock. Sparks.

Nuke a continent.

Creativity. Passion. I work for..... money? Cause I got stuck in an emotional and philosophical dunghole?

Organism needs food. Yet, i do not work for food. I work for instinct. I have a boss out of instinct.

I will go farming in America out of will. want, instinct? The human is complex. Easy answers?

Luck I wish you.

 

[sushi]

The universe has no concept of meaning, we do, therefore you create meaning.
What you are doing is called personification, like thinking that a doll feel sad.
This rock is here because all of the actions that lead it to be here, not because of my non secret plan to rule the universe.

isnt the whole point in life is finding meaning and purpose , truth in meaningless stuff and activity. otherwise, why would you engage in it, it is a waste of effort and energy. i dont know where i am going because i still lack experience to get the full picture

information is probably the orgnaization of matter, energy, and space/dimension at any given time.

 

[Haim]

isnt the whole point in life is finding meaning and purpose , truth in meaningless stuff and activity. otherwise, why would you engage in it, it is a waste of effort and energy.

Finding meaning is itself a meaning. Meaning is a combination of a goal and emotion, it is a goal that exists in the self not outside, the outside can influence the self but it is not the self.
A goal can be anything, it become meaning when you have emotional attachment to it.

Purpose is a thing you give to things after they already exists, so purpose is an idea. Idea does not interact with realty, me wanting to use the sword to kill somebody does not create the sword, meaning the sword was not created for purpose but I created a purpose for the sword.

 

[Black Rose]

meaning is the centering of life
purpose is what you are meant to do

when I discovered the meaning of life I went mad.
I was intimidated by the selection of choices available to me.

it was the absolute freedom that was scary
gave me a huge boost in psychic energy

(discovered the meaning of life)
(went to the mental hospital because of it)

 

[sushi]

Not to be a dick but can we get a definition or a description of "information" in the sense you're using it here?

Also what do you make of entropy ?

it is what information describe, rather than just information itself. information can be just nonsense.

 

[Black Rose]

arrangement

 

[Rebis]

Not to be a dick but can we get a definition or a description of "information" in the sense you're using it here?

Also what do you make of entropy ?

it is what information describe, rather than just information itself. information can be just nonsense.

It depends on your definition of information, though most people use the word data to describe nonsense; raw data. When we refine data it becomes information. Informaiton is tangible.

 

[sushi]

information can describe a building, a room, the human body (DNA) or anything in reality

i am interested in information in physical sense, in terms of space and dimensions, things that can be seen and touch.

i am really going abstract here. a picture is information describing something.

 

[sushi]

suppose you did a lot of work one day, and the next day or morning, you wake up, everything and your work and effort yesterday gets cancelled out by some unknown force.

it proves that work is related to information.

 

[Teax]

my hypothesis is that reality is fundamentally made of space and information.

, you got it.

One can say the very purpose of human work is creating information and space.

The real brainfuck here is that human perception is limited to what-you-call-space-and-information. Therefore even if reality were made of more than just that, humans would never know as there is no way for them to find out.

Human work follows human motivation, which follows human perception, which is why human work is also limited to what-you-call-creating-information-and-space.

 

[sushi]

the act of work create move, destroy information, I dont know about space, which is how my current to date thinking is different from yesterday and opening

I am discussing the purpose and function of work and labor, or the ontology of work

like i said if you have a reverse or cancel button, that reverse all your work had done after you done it, you just remove information and change.

I am not interested in the slave argument because i work because of money, or society tell me to out of necessity, that is just a slave mentality some idiots like to promote. or you can just argue maslow hierarchy.

 

[Teax]

I am discussing the purpose and function of work and labor

the act of work create move, destroy information, I dont know about space, which is how my current to date thinking is different from yesterday and opening

It is different, but in the way that matters, it isn't.

Space and information are not separable concepts, and you already described their relationship as well as could be described using the english language in your second post. And whether you call it space-and-information or something else makes no difference. Those are just words for one concept for which the english language has no direct words. But there are a ton of indirect words because it is such a fundamental concept.

like i said if you have a reverse or cancel button, that reverse all your work had done after you done it, you just remove information and change.

work is done to manipulate space and infromation to create a certain content.

Yep and Yep. Work is meaningful because the content is meaningful. Work itself is a type-of-content, so for some people, certain work is meaningful in itself.

 

[sushi]

you can discuss human motivation and end desire of labor and work, just dont make it like its for money and necessity and economy for those kind of standard answers, or if i dont wake up an show up at the office, i will lose my job. it means you dont know what you are doing other than satisfying your boss or the system.

 

[Teax]

you can discuss human motivation and end desire of labor and work, just dont make it like its for money and necessity and economy for those kind of standard answers, or if i dont wake up an show up at the office, i will lose my job. it means you dont know what you are doing other than satisfying your boss or the system.

No, for most people that is not the reason. (Though I'm sure there are some people who find the work of "helping their boss" to be meaningful.)

Take painters as an example: Some find the process of paining itself meaningful, and do not care what they paint. Other painters find the end result meaningful, they paint specific things, because they find those things meaningful.

Paining is a simple example. So here is a more complex one: When most people say they "need the job", what they actually care about are things like

• fear of death (not to die of hunger)
• avoiding pain (having a home)
• need for love (finding a life partner, whom they believe they need to impress)
• keeping their life partner happy, who have their own things they find meaningful
• going on vacation
• ... etc..etc..

All of the above are a type-of-information. A lot of information, scattered across space and time. (What combination of atoms/matter would you define as "having a job"?)

The job is not directly related to fear of death. Motivation is like a chain, and each link in the chain is made of information. Humans work to keep their boss happy, to get money, to exchange money for food, to eat the food, to avoid pain and death.

When you give a human an easier way to reach a link in the chain, they will do it. When a hard worker wins the lottery, they quit work, because they now can have a meaningful life without it. When a painter wins the lottery, they might just continue painting because the painting itself was a source of meaning for them.

 

[mister m 1 data]

reality is made up of things (rea), which in turn are made up of fundamental particles

(don't fall into subjectivism/matrix/simulation)

 

[sushi]

i am trying to figure out the difference between low end value added work vs high value work

such as wiping tables and cleaning, vs high end jobs. are they not just the same thing and process

 

[Rebis]

i am trying to figure out the difference between low end value added work vs high value work

such as wiping tables and cleaning, vs high end jobs. are they not just the same thing and process

High-end jobs require rare traits, but not limited to:
-Moral apathy
-Conceptual complexity
-Social Restrictions
-Long-work hours

Because of their rarity, they also require disciplinary qualities like:
-Punctuality
-Hard-working
-Consistency

 

[sushi]

i am trying to figure out the difference between low end value added work vs high value work

such as wiping tables and cleaning, vs high end jobs. are they not just the same thing and process

High-end jobs require rare traits, but not limited to:
-Moral apathy
-Conceptual complexity
-Social Restrictions
-Long-work hours

Because of their rarity, they also require disciplinary qualities like:
-Punctuality
-Hard-working
-Consistency

yea, but the essence is still, build , create, destroy, move something. so the process is the same.

 

[Rebis]

Processes are fundamentally the same but society operates on abstractions and values complex jobs due to this. Every item you know is valued based on rarity, this is true for people too.

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[Bertrand Russell's Barber]

This seems very reminiscent of digital philosophy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_philosophy

 

[Maou]

I didn't read the thread, but... to address the OP's post. Space and "information" is far to solipsistic. Information is subjective, there for bound to change. Nature doesn't need information to exist, it just does. Space however, does need to exist. Because it defines consciousness, and awareness.

 

[sushi]

there is no really solid defintion of work i can find thus far.

anyway, athought came to me i was comparing the universe to a room and the stuff you have inside th rom.

when you clean up"work" the room, you are just reorganizing the information inside the room., the same holds true your personal locker and stuff inside it,

we are just building creating, destroying information when we work.

also when you lose something valuable, say an object, it exist in the past as information. now it disappears , the information of that object disappears in reality.


when your boss watch and supervise your work, he is just watching you move create destory, information.

 

[sushi]

if you understand what work is and what you are doing, then you will know what power your boss /supervisor has over you and your labor. then that is perhaps a road to liberation and not working for someone for the rest of your life.

 

[sushi]

pretty much my so far observations and participations of work involve matter and material

the purpose of labor is the manipulate and transform matter and material into an ideal usable form. which becomes so called value.

transform, produce, move from one location., create destroy is function of work of labor.

most of the stuff we buy and produce in the economy is made of ordinary matter.

space and matter could be combined into one. there are many types of work and profession out there, ( discounting service industry) as there is division of labor, but most of it involve manipulating matter.

space and energy and some non matter resources might be included, but i think most of the stuff we use com from the surface of the earth or earth's crust.

information work might be included but i do not have to understand the process.

 

[sushi]

i am curious of any type of work and profession that does not involve manipulation of oridinary matter (outside of service industry) of course. perhaps the energy industry or radiation/exotic stuff. Cooking itself is a good example of manipulation of matter to an ideal form (dish). Even doctors and biochemists are manipulating matter. The human body is a form biomatter.

the rise of manufacturing industry comes from mastery of scientific and materlal process which allow us to manipulate matter and resources in a more complex scale, to create the goods we want and enjoy now. The material and chemical process has become more important than matter and resources.

Of course resources is not necessarily ordinary matter, while ordinary matter is resouces, it is merely stuff nature supply us.