On Ambition

[Absurdity]

@kantor1003 I really liked your response in this thread and decided it deserved one of its own.

I think ambition also opens up for the possibility of pain not even imaginable by what we may call hedonistic presentists. What is ambition, if not a striving towards what you are not. Sure, we can change, and realize that which we are not, but so can the object of our ambition. In fact, if you truly are ambitious, I say, it most definitely will. And what then can be said for a condition in which you exist only as unrealized? Only as that which is vertically below, and far below, where you want to be. Being your own inferior, rolling around in filth, constantly looking up. It's like climbing an infinite latter, constantly feeling bad about yourself for not having reached the top. Occasionally, you might catch up with your own ambition and experience a few hours of pure bliss, of self-love, but ambition quickly runs ahead, and the whole process starts anew - why? Because those few hours (usually, it's not even hours, but minutes, or seconds), unfortunately, feels SO FUCKING GOOD that you would do anything to get it back. Nothing I have ever felt beats self-love. If only it existed in an infinite supply.

This is a good point, a great one even, and I just wanted to reflect on it along with the topic of ambition generally.

I've noticed that ambition comes in at least two varieties, and they are not mutually exclusive. The first is a nervousness to comply with the expectations of "others" broadly defined, as in the expectations of your family, friends, mentors, as well as social norms (e.g. being expected to go to college if you've just graduated high school, being expected to marry someone if you date them long enough, etc.). I think that it is this variety that most likely leads to the endless ladder that kantor speaks of. Social expectations will never end because they are extrinsic. Even people who seem like they have it all like Mark Zuckerberg or whoever are "expected" to donate to good causes, serve as thought leaders, and other social roles.

The other sort of ambition is intrinsic. There's a lot of pop wisdom* out there related to this sort of ambition, so I'll try to avoid being platitudinal. I've understood the concept of it previously but it's only really something that has recently become intuitively understood and "clicked." I want to become better and improve myself as an end in itself; the admiration of others is just a side benefit and I consciously avoid becoming too indebted to it (which has included deleting certain social media presences to control narcissism). When one defines the terms of success of their own life they effectively control kantor's ladder.

But what of this ephemeral and temporary self-love that results from accomplishment, which the wise kantor describes? Perhaps one may even experience diminishing returns with each successive accomplishment. Ambition becomes a monster; achievement an addiction. I think the only way around fixating on the prize of achieving the goal is to learn to enjoy the struggle to reach it. And the struggle can be quite fun. It seems to me the easiest way to enjoy it is to find others who are struggling for different goals (and thus not direct competitors**) and share the experience with them.

And before you write me off as an idealist, let me tell you, I have tasted despair, mediocrity, and abject failure. I've tried hedonism and the pop-Zen crap about living in the moment. In my experience, few individuals promoting such a worldview actually truly buy into it. Most are simply playing off a lack of ambition or a fear of failure as a lifestyle choice.

So then, what are your thoughts on ambition?

-------------------
* Perhaps the pop wisdom is geared toward SJs? Although they would be more likely to respond to extrinsic motivation as servants of tradition and what not. Maybe just sensors or feelers? Or just stupid people regardless of type?
** I think depending on the environment, other competitors for the same or a similar goal can also be individuals worth building a sense of camaraderie with.

 

[Architect]

So then, what are your thoughts on ambition?

It's like food, you don't want too much and you don't want too little.

 

[BigApplePi]

Here is an answer, but where is the poetry?

 

[GodOfOrder]

Friends, Romans, forum junkies, lend me your ears;
I come to bury @Absurdity, not to praise him.
The evil that men do lives after them,
The good is oft interred with their bones;
So let it be with @Absurdity. The noble Brutus
Hath told you @Absurdity was ambitious.
If it were so, it was a grievous fault,
And grievously hath @Absurdity answered it.
Here, under leave of Brutus and the rest
(For Brutus is an honourable man,
So are they all, all honourable men),
Come I to speak in Caesar's funeral.
He was my friend, faithful and just to me;
But Brutus says he was ambitious,
And Brutus is an honourable man.
He hath brought many captives home to Rome,
Whose ransoms did the general coffers fill;
Did this in @Absurdity seem ambitious?
When that the poor have cried, @Absurdity hath wept;
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
Yet Brutus says he was ambitious;
And Brutus is an honourable man.
You all did see that on the Lupercal
I thrice presented him a kingly crown,
Which he did thrice refuse. Was this ambition?
Yet Brutus says he was ambitious;
And sure he is an honourable man.
I speak not to disprove what Brutus spoke,
But here I am to speak what I do know.
You all did love him once, not without cause;
What cause withholds you then to mourn for him?
O judgment, thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason! Bear with me;
My heart is in the coffin there with @Absurdity,
And I must pause till it come back to me.

 

[Ink]

The greater the man the bigger the shadow he casts. So yeah, ambition always comes with a price

 

[neoteutonSTEMeccentric]

To live with struggle is the only way to live in my humble opinion. Life becomes as boring and flat as a line when all you see are successes or never try. To feel failure makes the sensation of success all the more sweeter. When the pain associated with loss is replaced by the orgasm of accomplishment it is like emerging from the darkest depths to feel the loving warmth of the sun.

 

[Polaris]

I'm thinking of ambition in relation to freedom. If I accomplish ABC, I will have the freedom I desire.

Or will I?

As Absurdity outlined, I think it is important to look at the emotional drivers of ambition.

Emotions that are conditioned by parental/societal pressures vs. emotions associated with followings one's passion/interests.

Parental/societal can sometimes be confused with one's own wishes. Which is why I think it is important to remove oneself from these sources to realise one's own ambitions.

I often wonder what drives me. I do what I always wanted to do, but doubt inevitably sets in when I question where this drive originated from.

If this is what I really want to do, why am I procrastinating?

Do I really have ambition?

Or is it the learning process that is getting to me; having to follow a recipe in order to gain this supposed freedom.

I am more and more leaning towards ambition as a product of external expectations colouring the internal.....

However, if I give up I will find myself trapped as well...in the doubt that if I had persevered, I wouldn't find myself in the current conundrum.

So I push forward....just to eliminate that possibility.

 

[Kuu]

I am a man of unbridled ambition. It will prove to be my undoing. I couldn't have it any other way.

Look up and spit at the heavens. What if the dangerous addiction is the struggle itself, the spit in your face, the self-hate, the infinite ladder?

 

[Cavallier]

I am a man of unbridled ambition.

"Man''. *files that away for future reference*

I understand ambition in the same way that I understand a frog I've dissected. I see how it functions but it feels cold and alien to me.

I've said before that while I may have the best cardboard box under the bridge (I'm scrappy what can I say?) it would still just be a stupid cardboard box under a bridge if it weren't for the other people in my life. I don't mean to say I am lazy because I'm not. I have excess energy and lots of things I could lose myself in studying. However, the only thing that keeps me from wondering off track and chasing the rabbit down the rabbit hole is that I have people who care about me and depend on me. So, I am dependable for them and keep an eye out for the leg ups I can get that will help them.

It is a tenuous connection to ambition at best.

 

[Cognisant]

If one does not live for ambition then why live at all?

The greater the man the bigger the shadow he casts. So yeah, ambition always comes with a price

Friends come and go, enemies you can depend on.

 

[Architect]

I'm thinking of ambition in relation to freedom. If I accomplish ABC, I will have the freedom I desire ...

Do I really have ambition?

Or is it the learning process that is getting to me; having to follow a recipe in order to gain this supposed freedom.

I am more and more leaning towards ambition as a product of external expectations colouring the internal.....

However, if I give up I will find myself trapped as well...in the doubt that if I had persevered, I wouldn't find myself in the current conundrum.

I think there are two types of ambition; authentic and inauthentic. The exact nature of each depends on the person and their type. Namely; authentic ambition is the dynamic created from the inferior that draws the dominant forward. For INTPs that means having a career in a broad Fe philosophical platform. For INFPs it is similar but based on a Te system. For SJs/SPs it means performing their duty within some group, such as religious (intuition inferior), family, or demographic (military/country).

Unsurprisingly the common meaning of ambition then is the SJ one; achieving some stature within a group. I see SJ children who are seemingly born with this, as there are so many available role models. For INPs it's a long search to find a compatible philosophical platform.

Inauthentic ambition then is one cobbled from another type, such as an INTP trying to achieve position, stature and duty.

 

[Cavallier]

I think there are two types of ambition; authentic and inauthentic. The exact nature of each depends on the person and their type. Namely; authentic ambition is the dynamic created from the inferior that draws the dominant forward. For INTPs that means having a career in a broad Fe philosophical platform. For INFPs it is similar but based on a Te system. For SJs/SPs it means performing their duty within some group, such as religious (intuition inferior), family, or demographic (military/country).

Unsurprisingly the common meaning of ambition then is the SJ one; achieving some stature within a group. I see SJ children who are seemingly born with this, as there are so many available role models. For INPs it's a long search to find a compatible philosophical platform.

Inauthentic ambition then is one cobbled from another type, such as an INTP trying to achieve position, stature and duty.

This. I have created a false ambition in myself to make my loved ones comfortable but my true ambition is simply to learn and experience as much as I can.

 

[Foxman49]

My ambitions tend toward becoming a more competent and effective individual. In a higher sense, it is the pursuit of mastery. I don't mean an "art for art's sake" kind of attitude. More like "art for aesthetics' sake."

My personal trouble with ambition is that 1. I can be pretty lazy (no excuse for this) 2. Despite my ambition facing a forward direction, it is like wandering in a dark cave with no light. I wonder "Where the hell am I going?"

There is nothing wrong with ambition, only ones attitude towards it. An unhealthy attitude to ambition can ruin you, but a healthy one pushes you forward.

 

[Pyropyro]

I think there are two types of ambition; authentic and inauthentic. The exact nature of each depends on the person and their type. Namely; authentic ambition is the dynamic created from the inferior that draws the dominant forward. For INTPs that means having a career in a broad Fe philosophical platform. For INFPs it is similar but based on a Te system. For SJs/SPs it means performing their duty within some group, such as religious (intuition inferior), family, or demographic (military/country).

Unsurprisingly the common meaning of ambition then is the SJ one; achieving some stature within a group. I see SJ children who are seemingly born with this, as there are so many available role models. For INPs it's a long search to find a compatible philosophical platform.

Inauthentic ambition then is one cobbled from another type, such as an INTP trying to achieve position, stature and duty.

Ouch, but yeah I believe that I've have an SJ ambition all along... It took me to quit my job to get things into perspective. Hmmm... perhaps I need to write this in a thread.

 

[Architect]

This. I have created a false ambition in myself to make my loved ones comfortable but my true ambition is simply to learn and experience as much as I can.

Ouch, but yeah I believe that I've have an SJ ambition all along... It took me to quit my job to get things into perspective. Hmmm... perhaps I need to write this in a thread.

Yes inauthentic ambition is an unfortunately ridiculously easy trap for an INXX to fall into. The whole system is designed that way.

On the other hand it can serve a useful purpose, which is to get, for example, an INTP off their philosophizing butt and doing something. For example, part of the reason I pushed myself in music and physics was to prove I wasn't a loser, to the many S types who thought I was a loser. I didn't stay in the fields, but the effort had many benefits. One, I learned a lot about music and science. Two was it provided fodder for my search in the Maze. Now, later in life with that hindsight (Si) I'm equipped to be able to find my true path.

 

[jpc]

Someone take these dreams away,
That point me to another day,/***/

If you didnt have ambition you wouldnt want to keep struggling.

If you have been staying in the comfort zone for the most of your life, you dont really need a lot of ambition, because you are already happy. If you have been through some really dark times, you see how fragile your situation is an you try your best to be not hit the bottom again. But you also start to feel a high from it, because that is how our brains are configured. And this is where you could get messed up if you are not careful.

You could view it like this: the more ambition you have and if you actually act upon it, the more control over your life you have and the less dependent you are on others (this is usually the case). The question is what triggers the right emotions in you so that you feel content or what is the thing that you are chasing that makes you think you will eventually feel content and is it worth it?(what will change, not why will it change things)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36GT2zI8lVA

 

[walfin]

I generally say I have no ambition but lots of goals.

Ambition is about being somebody. You can have no wish to be somebody in particular but want to complete many things by the time you die.

 

[paradoxparadigm7]

@kantor1003 I really liked your response in this thread and decided it deserved one of its own.



This is a good point, a great one even, and I just wanted to reflect on it along with the topic of ambition generally.

I've noticed that ambition comes in at least two varieties, and they are not mutually exclusive. The first is a nervousness to comply with the expectations of "others" broadly defined, as in the expectations of your family, friends, mentors, as well as social norms (e.g. being expected to go to college if you've just graduated high school, being expected to marry someone if you date them long enough, etc.). I think that it is this variety that most likely leads to the endless ladder that kantor speaks of. Social expectations will never end because they are extrinsic. Even people who seem like they have it all like Mark Zuckerberg or whoever are "expected" to donate to good causes, serve as thought leaders, and other social roles.

The other sort of ambition is intrinsic. There's a lot of pop wisdom* out there related to this sort of ambition, so I'll try to avoid being platitudinal. I've understood the concept of it previously but it's only really something that has recently become intuitively understood and "clicked." I want to become better and improve myself as an end in itself; the admiration of others is just a side benefit and I consciously avoid becoming too indebted to it (which has included deleting certain social media presences to control narcissism). When one defines the terms of success of their own life they effectively control kantor's ladder.

But what of this ephemeral and temporary self-love that results from accomplishment, which the wise kantor describes? Perhaps one may even experience diminishing returns with each successive accomplishment. Ambition becomes a monster; achievement an addiction. I think the only way around fixating on the prize of achieving the goal is to learn to enjoy the struggle to reach it. And the struggle can be quite fun. It seems to me the easiest way to enjoy it is to find others who are struggling for different goals (and thus not direct competitors**) and share the experience with them.

And before you write me off as an idealist, let me tell you, I have tasted despair, mediocrity, and abject failure. I've tried hedonism and the pop-Zen crap about living in the moment. In my experience, few individuals promoting such a worldview actually truly buy into it. Most are simply playing off a lack of ambition or a fear of failure as a lifestyle choice.

So then, what are your thoughts on ambition?

-------------------
* Perhaps the pop wisdom is geared toward SJs? Although they would be more likely to respond to extrinsic motivation as servants of tradition and what not. Maybe just sensors or feelers? Or just stupid people regardless of type?
** I think depending on the environment, other competitors for the same or a similar goal can also be individuals worth building a sense of camaraderie with.

Nothing wrong with Idealists When you hold tightly to the outcome, you lose yourself and become a slave to the outcome. Totally agree, enjoying the process and journey of striving (fill in the blank) is the way to be free. This seems to be particularly relevant to INTJ and INFJ. The Ni-Se balance which is trying to realize the perfection of your Ni vision, although this notion translates to all too.

 

[Absurdity]

I want to become better and improve myself as an end in itself; the admiration of others is just a side benefit and I consciously avoid becoming too indebted to it (which has included deleting certain social media presences to control narcissism). When one defines the terms of success of their own life they effectively control kantor's ladder.

Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher,

vanity of vanities! All is vanity.​

What does man gain by all the toil

at which he toils under the sun?​

A generation goes, and a generation comes,

but the earth remains forever.​

The sun rises, and the sun goes down,

and hastens to the place where it rises.​

The wind blows to the south

and goes around to the north;​

around and around goes the wind,

and on its circuits the wind returns.​

All streams run to the sea,

but the sea is not full;​

to the place where the streams flow,

there they flow again.​

All things are full of weariness;

a man cannot utter it;​

the eye is not satisfied with seeing,

nor the ear filled with hearing.​

What has been is what will be,

and what has been done is what will be done,​

and there is nothing new under the sun.​

Is there a thing of which it is said,

“See, this is new”?​

It has been already

in the ages before us.​

There is no remembrance of former things,

nor will there be any remembrance​

of later things yet to be

among those who come after.​

The past few weeks have been a grind, and yet I loved nearly every second of it! As I stood sweating under the sun urging myself on though I was weary and sleep-deprived I took solace in the fact that it would all be worth it, that the accomplishment would be a grand reward... yet it was not. Our efforts resulted in a tremendous success and my toil was lauded and yet here I stand, restless and unsatisfied, wanting more. I let out a mighty cry at having reached this rarified rung but the ladder still looms on until it fades into the grey distance of the sky overhead.

For a while there I thought I had found what it was that I was meant to do, but evidently I was wrong.

 

[Puffy]

^ Probably one of my favourite passages from the Old Testament.

I basically agree with the internal/external, authentic/ inauthentic divide. Like Polaris mentioned, what motivates ambition interests me. I feel wealth, power, and fame are genuinely not that important to me, false tangents from the real pursuit. (Recognition is closer than fame to me, in that recognition involves a deep affirmation/ love/ connection, a sense of really being there.)

What underlies my own ambition feels more like this deep longing to come into being, as if I'm in a relative state of unreality not quite born. The deeper contact I have with the source of my own ambition and its projects, the more real I feel; in contrast things apart from that become more unsatisfying, and so a conscience-like impulse exists to strive to align one's daily life with that.
Too bad I'm a procrastinator...

 

[Absurdity]

This is all bullshit.

 

[paradoxparadigm7]

This is all bullshit.

Care to elaborate?

 

[Absurdity]

Care to elaborate?

I will when I'm not so moody. Currently caught in the thick of an all-too-typical struggle between authenticity and blind ambition.

 

[Polaris]

Sometimes you need a little bit of blind ambition to drive you forward when authenticity is hard to muster up. The trick is not to lose momentum.

 

[TBerg]

I have been thinking about some of my failures recently, and it somewhat reminded me of your situation. I know I am lazy to the core, with my preference being unbothered by external events. I would much rather sit around and just think about stuff. This is my natural state.

When I have tried to go out and accomplish even the most mundane things, I used to get very anxious and thrown off by the experience. It was so foreign to me. I would try to do the job, but it simply warped my abilities. Playing sports, for example. Making jewelry, another example. Painting, playing piano, and so on. Nothing felt right about them.

The only thing I ever enjoyed were non-math college classes. I knew that one doesn't have many job prospects if you are a humanist or social scientist, so I went back to college to study science in preparation to study neuroscience. Going back to college, however, really took its toll, especially when I was studying things that required math skills, of which mine are parsimonious. While studying for subjects, I encountered a lot of anxiety, to the point at which I started to take it out on people with whom I usually enjoy spending time.

Anyway, I need to find out how to get out of my parents' house again, and I am just afraid that I am going to warp my character maniacally if I become ambitious again. The only thing that does not promise too much stress is philosophy or political science, but those fields do not offer many opportunities. I also don't have the money to go to graduate school right now. Should I try to get a janitorial job at a nice university to see if I can qualify for free tuition there? Should I even go back to school?

 

[Absurdity]

Anyway, I need to find out how to get out of my parents' house again, and I am just afraid that I am going to warp my character maniacally if I become ambitious again. The only thing that does not promise too much stress is philosophy or political science, but those fields do not offer many opportunities. I also don't have the money to go to graduate school right now. Should I try to get a janitorial job at a nice university to see if I can qualify for free tuition there? Should I even go back to school?

I'm stuck at home as well and plotting my escape. I've thought pretty hard about the academic life as well but I don't think I'd fit for a number of reasons, the most important being that my political leanings are off the accepted spectrum that lies between sycophantic neoliberal and bloodthirsty Maoist. Much more fun to work on the fringes, the secret is to find a job that won't punish you for expressing thoughtcrime when you're off the clock.

For those reasons, I have a sort of naive sense of romance when it comes to non-white collar jobs. I know a kid who graduated from Cal and went to work at a brewery and he loves it. I find that inspiring, even though I hesitate to seriously go down that path because I still give a shit about what family and friends think of my life choices.

Also, a point of dissimilarity: I'm not at all fundamentally lazy and actually do derive some energy from my surroundings (dat inf-Se). This is the chief motivation behind my desire to move to a more engaging city. Los Angeles is stultifying.

 

[TBerg]

Maybe I should get a job in California (beer) or Colorado (cannabis).

 

[TBerg]

I think more than anything, I am just afraid and full of doubt right now, and not for any bad reason.

 

[redbaron]

I still give a shit about what family and friends think of my life choices.

Large part of the problem I think.

 

[Absurdity]

Large part of the problem I think.

It is. Tough to deprogram though.

 

[AquaTron]

I hesitate to seriously go down that path because I still give a shit about what family and friends think of my life choices.

Also, a point of dissimilarity: I'm not at all fundamentally lazy and actually do derive some energy from my surroundings (dat inf-Se). This is the chief motivation behind my desire to move to a more engaging city. Los Angeles is stultifying.

This. Wow, I have felt the same way lately when thinking about what got me in the mess I'm in. I believe just going with my parents advice really made me make some poor choices. Now I'm at the point where they can tell me what they think, and I will make my own decision. Then I inform them of what I intend to do and they just accept it.

Before recently there was a lot of hostility if I wasn't living how they wanted. Once I took control I have been happier and never felt better. Even though I'm in a big struggle now, I see the end of it coming soon.

If you are caught up in something, in a hole, try relying on your Ne. Take in all that information around you as you said you do with Se. Then look beyond what you see. What around you is useful? What resources do you have and what can you use to get where you want. What can you make out of it?

Find what you enjoy doing and pursue it. If it takes a college degree and you need money first focus on finding the best job for yourself at the present moment. I feel like as an INTP the best thing for me to do is focus on the present. Make smaller goals that will eventually lead you to where you want to be. I focused on my long term goal and lost sight of what I needed to be doing to eventually be successful. In addition, make sure you deeply understand what is driving you to this goal. Once you tap into that energy you will be motivated, happy, energetic, and full of life. The best reasons for ambition? Curiosity, inventions, innovations, pure joy. If you enjoy your job, you'll never work a day in your life.

 

[TBerg]

Absurdity is not an INTP, AquaTron.

 

[Absurdity]

Absurdity is not an INTP, AquaTron.

I'm an INTJ, or an INFJ, or an ISTJ, depending on who you ask :0

 

[AquaTron]

Well, I test as 50/50 sometimes. I'm only slightly P for the most part.
I've tested as INTJ a few times before.

 

[Missfortune]

I'm stuck at home as well and plotting my escape. I've thought pretty hard about the academic life as well but I don't think I'd fit for a number of reasons, the most important being that my political leanings are off the accepted spectrum that lies between sycophantic neoliberal and bloodthirsty Maoist. Much more fun to work on the fringes, the secret is to find a job that won't punish you for expressing thoughtcrime when you're off the clock.

I don't understand why that would make academia a bad fit.

 

[Absurdity]

I don't understand why that would make academia a bad fit.

Because I am most interested in areas related to politics and there wouldn't be any faculty I could work with due to ideological differences.

Also there really isn't a discipline for the study of the death of Western Civilization... Demography perhaps but it'd be a stretch.

 

[Absurdity]

This is all bullshit.

+1

 

[The Introvert]

Oh, oh, oh.

The things to do, the things to say.

I don't know if you've thrown away everything here or not,

But +1 bullshit is close enough, if for the right reason.

People kid themselves into thinking that ambition solves any problems.

The people that make things work, really, make things beautiful. The people that we admire. There is no such thing as successful ambition, if what I've said above is to determine success. There is boredom, and some people just happen to be really good at being bored.

 

[Absurdity]

There's a comfort in the shackles. Sure the iron wears at the flesh of your wrists and ankles, and sure you're forced to do menial work -- basket weaving, crushing big rocks into little rocks, cleaning out the pig pens -- but the warden gives you hot food twice a day and lets you rest for six hours. He even gives you a rough and soiled wool sheet that almost covers your whole body when you curl up on the stone floor to sleep at night.

It's cold out there. There are bandits and wolves that stalk the roads. That's what the rest of the folks at the camp say at least. Sometimes there aren't even roads... No one to care for you, not like the good warden! The best of us get to live in his big house, clean his chamberpot out, and in return we get to sleep in beds. Can you imagine? A bed... someday perhaps I'll be so fortunate.

Sometimes I can't sleep though. It's not the hard floor, or the frost, or the lice, or the wind... Bad dreams. I think about doing something crazy. We all have keys on a rope around our necks. We could unlock ourselves if we wanted to. Sometimes I have dreams where I turn the key.