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Oblivion sucks

bvanevery

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That's actually pretty realistic. Modern ICBM's have multiple small warheads that cover a large area with small radius of total destruction.

I thought MIRVs were banned, but I see that START II was never ratified. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_independently_targetable_reentry_vehicle

Many modern armies have developed countermeasures for deploying troops near the points of detonation. The greatest damage is to the infrastructure and electronics, the zone is definitely not dead or inaccessible with the right equipment.

And these great combat ideas have been battle tested how, exactly?

Anyways even if it does turn out to be realistic, it makes for a shitty long game. Now you do MORE mouseclicks to win. The computer never gets tired, but you do.

I'd imagine each City to be equipped with those as a default,

Not in Civ games where you've developed nukes and your enemies haven't. Which is the usual scenario. It's why you work oh so hard as a human player to improve your tech. So you can have fun destroying your enemies and actually win the game.

In your earlier post you mentioned RPG and how it doesn't need AI or challenge.

That sounds like an interpretation of whatever I said, not what I said. Please quote.

I disagree, challenge is a big part of immersion,

I do remember saying to someone, somewhere, that "immersion" is a game industry throwaway word. I challenged the poster to actually define the word.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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I do remember saying to someone, somewhere, that "immersion" is a game industry throwaway word. I challenged the poster to actually define the word.
Haha, thanks but I'll pass. I'm not your teacher here so allow me to ambiguously say "flow is immersion and immersion is everything!" before leaving.

After reading your last post I realised I won't be able to convey the right message to you so I give up on explaining stuff. ; )

All those details were unnecessary to my point to begin with and yet it ended up under a heap of them. Talking is no fun when it gets boring.
 

Hadoblado

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I don't think it's a fanciful expectation to expect NPC's in a roleplaying game to have good AI. If they aren't smart, it's less a roleplaying game than it is a puzzle game. Instead of playing a role, you're solving the puzzle which is their shitty AI, then exploiting it. They're no longer people, they're obstacles or tools. This is made worse in games like Oblivion, where not only do the NPCs lack character and realistic behaviour, they're also repetitive.

Honestly I think the AI one of the most important elements to immersion and RPGs. Without it I can't roleplay, I just powergame until I'm bored then leave.

On Civ:
I found the rioting/happiness mechanics quite tricky, but I do think they're an important element to an empire simu. I'd like to have more options for tackling the issues (do I really need to spam coliseums every game to keep my pop from rebelling?), but in the absence of such a mechanic aggressive strategies would be far more powerful, overshadowing the rest of the game. I do find it a bit grindy usually opting to quit before completion. I don't find the multi compelling, just because of the time it takes, that would probably be improved by time limits, but also perhaps if actions could be taken between turns to maintain engagement? I've actually got a bit of a hard on for the notion of simultaneous turns atm. The AI isn't great, but honestly for the most part I hardly notice. It's a bit annoying just how much of an advantage the harder difficulties get though. Facing it feels like a string of tactical victories rather than anything strategic.

Civ feels like a bunch of great ideas in a package that is limited, in that the multi is cumbersome and the singleplayer lacks narrative and options. I hear some of the mods are pretty cool though.
 

bvanevery

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I don't think it's a fanciful expectation to expect NPC's in a roleplaying game to have good AI. If they aren't smart, it's less a roleplaying game than it is a puzzle game. Instead of playing a role, you're solving the puzzle which is their shitty AI, then exploiting it.

Solving puzzles is hardly foreign to pencil and paper RPG. Anyone remember S1 "Tomb of Horrors" ? Brutal.

They're no longer people, they're obstacles or tools. This is made worse in games like Oblivion, where not only do the NPCs lack character and realistic behaviour, they're also repetitive.

Well they sure have a lot more character than they did in Morrowind! Voice acting helps. They also paid more attention to dialogue, although they could still do a lot better.

Honestly I think the AI one of the most important elements to immersion and RPGs. Without it I can't roleplay, I just powergame until I'm bored then leave.

What does "roleplaying" mean to you?

Will you take the challenge of defining the word "immersion" ?

Powergaming is not foreign to pencil and paper RPG either. Might as well as what your Bartle Type is at this point. Although GNS Theory is probably more relevant.
 

bvanevery

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The long term Oblivion character continues with artifact hunting. I'm semi-proud of myself for solving a difficult "find chests in a landscape" problem, without resorting to an internet spoiler. Although that was mainly because I was away from wifi while playing. Only semi-proud because the puzzle consumed an awful lot of wall clock time, and I'm not sure that was a quality use of time either. But I've got a Ring of Omnipotence now, which sounds cool, and has a bunch of decent stat boosts.

On the other laptop, I'm having a low level guy run straight throught the main quest. I try to divert from it as little as possible. So far I've managed to close the 1st gate, without doing any other quests, delving other dungeons, or otherwise preparing for the experience. The main trick is he's born under the sign of the Atronach, and he's a dark elf. So he's fire resistant and gets his magicka replenished by being blasted. It doesn't regenerate otherwise. Essentially I'm playing backwards. I need people to hurl fireballs at me to give me the magicka so I can heal myself. Unfortunately they don't oblige by hurling indefinitely. Sometimes they miss, and once they run out of magicka they close for melee. If I've mixed up poisons then I can off 'em easily enough, but I'm not making any special trips to get poison ingredients. So I tend to run out of poison, and health potions. It's not exactly easy to do things this way, but it has proven viable so far. I've closed 1 gate without doing much of anything else in the game.

I'm also fighting a left touchpad button that tends to get stuck. Annoying. Swinging a sword too many times isn't necessarily a big deal, as long as I wasn't trying to block to save my ass. But with a bow active, it's a real problem. Tends to stutter the bow and make arrows fall on the floor instead of doing anything useful. So I forgive myself a certain amount of save-load to deal with this button problem.
 

Hadoblado

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Solving puzzles is hardly foreign to pencil and paper RPG. Anyone remember S1 "Tomb of Horrors" ? Brutal.
Yeah puzzles can be in it, but I'm saying that bad AI reduces RPG to bad puzzle games.

What does "roleplaying" mean to you?

Will you take the challenge of defining the word "immersion" ?

I'm not going to get into the technicalities, but essentially I expect a roleplaying experience to allow me to act outside of my real identity temporarily. If I play a roleplaying game, I don't want to be Hadoblado tinkering away with stuff all day like I normally would. I want to experience a world through the eyes of another, if that world feels contrived, then immersion in that experience is broken, I can no longer suspend disbelief, and the game no longer offers me anything I want.

Powergaming is not foreign to pencil and paper RPG either. Might as well as what your Bartle Type is at this point. Although GNS Theory is probably more relevant.

I don't find any of the Bartle categories useful in describing my drives. There are elements of every description in my approach. I've had been described as both spade and club. In a game I currently play my nickname is 'teacher' due to my emphasis on the social learning aspect of the game, heading a clan specifically to facilitate these ends. I also buy into certain types of achievements, but usually only ladder related, I gain little satisfaction from doing with a game what the designers intended me to do unless I'm doing it particularly well (which isn't often). So ummm... not achiever?

As for GNS, well... I identify too strongly with all types (again). Primarily gamer most likely. Narrative is ordinarily secondary to me, but if the game has narrative it is of utmost importance. Simulation is amazing but only if sufficiently vast. A plane simulator is boring, but a city building sim is bliss.

You?
 

bvanevery

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I think I end up being G. I'd like more N, but the narratives are not usually all that good, so it's hard to see N as a priority when the writing is bad. I do not care about S in and of itself, I'm mainly interested in how the rules systems work, which is more of a G impulse. Oddly though, I tend to approach game design from the standpoint of S. Which usually doesn't work out, and I kick myself to remember that "games are not simulators." You do not have to make sure that you're delivering some kind of "coherent reality" to have a game. But I try to construct coherent realities, because it's sort of a logical deductive process I can trundle through. Such logical realities tend to end up dead and boring and then I won't actually make a game out of them.
 

bvanevery

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Now I'm the head of the Thieves Guild. This is an odd change, as it's not clear that I'm actually in charge of anything. For instance, I don't seem to be able to give anyone any orders, or contract anyone to do any jobs. I do get a nice house out of the deal though. Which I don't actually use for anything, as living out of 3 grain bags in the Market District, as I've been doing all along, is far more convenient for storing stuff. What a strange world, nobody looks in the bags! A beggar might occasionally eat a bit of my food though.

Becoming, in essence, The Grey Fox, isn't as pathologically bad as it seemed at first. I thought perhaps I was going to have the guards after me permanently, which would be annoying. But it seems I can take the hood off, and go back to just being me. Which means I can do heists as The Grey Fox, then slip out of my costume Superman --> Clark Kent style. If I'm careful, I never have to worry about getting my record erased. The Grey Fox takes all the blame! I just walk around the corner like nothing happened.

I'm in a bit of an Existential crisis as to what my purpose is now though. I completed the Thieves Guild story arc and got the capability that provides. Now what? Still don't feel like saving the heir.
 

Sly-fy

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The leveling system suck and I was shocked and appalled that they made the same mistake with Skyrim.

Also Skyrim really punished magic users.

I like the leveling in Skyrim and I`m kicking ass as a mage, at level 41 or so I have so much magicka and quick regenerate perks that my health never runs out as I constantly heal myself and my companion, and use summoning to have others fight for me, all the while assisting them with Master destruction spells to clean house. I`m virtually unstoppable and it`s getting dull.

Sorry for digressing from the main topic.
 

bvanevery

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I can't imagine making it to level 41 in Oblivion. I deleted the head of Thieves Guild character. I got PWND by a stupid wraith! The wraith was almost dead from a distant magic exchange that I was pretty much winning. I ran out of magicka so closed in with a silver blade to finish it off. Suddenly I'm dead! I wonder if a jerky frame rate had something to do with it, if I got killed by a low performance laptop as much as by the wraith. But I said, enough is enough. If I can become that powerful and important as a thief, and the stupid "leveled enemies" system will just punish me like a rube anyways, then what's the point of going up this game's treadmills at all?

I started over with a sort of mage-pugilist, that mainly uses destruction magic, but finishes enemies off by beating them up hand-to-hand. She's a lizard and also does Security and Sneak. I vowed to actually spend my gold this time. I joined the Fighters Guild because I hadn't done any of their stuff before. I muled the entire guild in all the cities and got a fair amount of gold and mercantile that way. I used the loot to buy spells, then training when I couldn't find any more spells that I could use.

I also vowed to never touch alchemy again, as it's ultimately a pointless waste of time. I had so many mid-strength potions that took so long to mix up, with so many ingredients picked and ruminated about. Far more than I could ever possibly use as ordinance. So none of that this time! When I get things, I eat them. Even toxic things, as it makes alchemy skill go up. Hey if I eventually became a Master Alchemist that way, maybe it would be useful, although I haven't run out of the potions I've just found lying around. I did find an Apprentice Mortar and Pestle one place though, a surprising find as I'd never seen one before. I put it in my usual "middle of the market, in the grain bag" storage and will consider it someday.

The leveling was working a lot better when I was massively muleing the Fighters' Guild. I'd manage to get +5 in Personality at least, because it was a minor skill not major, I figure. Now that I'm working towards major skills, I tend to only get +2. The leveling system is really annoying that way.

My Achilles Heel is Endurance, which I haven't leveled at all. Mostly I don't use armor or weapons and I've never liked the blocking mechanic. I do use magic weapons when I get them, against stuff that seems "worth it", until they run out of charges. I've got some gems, including a couple Varla stones, with which I could recharge these items, but I'm not convinced it's worth it at present. My Flash Bolt and Flame Touch are still vaporizing a lot of enemies, so why melee? I must say, I definitely appreciate watching skeletons explode into a shower of constituent parts, for basically no work on my part.
 

Sly-fy

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I definitely appreciate watching skeletons explode into a shower of constituent parts, for basically no work on my part.

Oh yeah, that`s a riot! I don`t think you have that bones shattering feature in Skyrim though, as first skeletal enemies are extremely rare and second, I wouldn`t know since I use supercharged shock destruction magic which disintegrates everything I kill into a pile of ash (though magically their possessions are intact to plunder from the ash.)
 

redbaron

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I can't imagine making it to level 41 in Oblivion. I deleted the head of Thieves Guild character. I got PWND by a stupid wraith

Stop sucking and you'll probably enjoy games more.
 

Sly-fy

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Stop sucking and you'll probably enjoy games more.

Ouch. I take it you`re not a jerk and have just had a bad day. Anyway I`m sure that there are things he`s better at than you are, even if it might not be video games.
 

redbaron

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To be honest no, I've been loosely following this thread and the main theme that keeps coming up is, "it's too hard/confusing/challenging so therefore it sucks".

I've been trying to come up with a way to explain how there's different ways of looking at the problem but the overriding factor that makes all the difference is the it's actually the player that sucks not the game. Although to be honest I'd never play Skyrim/Oblivion because they really are shit games, but not because they're hard or the game "punishes" you. It's actually because they're disgustingly linear with appalling AI that makes the game about as difficult as naughts and crosses.
 

Sly-fy

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@redbaron - To say that a whole genre of games is "s***" is highly subjective. You of course are entitled to your opinion but I have to disagree, I certainly don`t think that all RPGs are bad, and IMO Skyrim is one of the better ones. It`s is by far less linear than Oblivion for sure, and from my experience one of the least linear ones, since for a big chunk of the story you can choose whether to work for this faction or their rival faction, and then you get sucked deeper in one story than the other and you can`t work for both anymore and have to choose which storyline to finish because you can only finish one of the two.

Also, for many individual missions you can choose whether to do the "right thing," like returning something that belongs to someone to them or keep it and use it yourself, or whether to threaten someone to spill their secret to someone else to get your way, whether to backstab your accomplices or stay loyal to them, even if they`re not exactly playing it by the book... there are all kinds of choices you can make.

In Mass Effect and Dragon Age, there are many menial choices like conversation choices but ultimately the storyline itself is more linear and you can basically choose which ending you want at the very end, regardless how you`ve played, which in Skyrim is more complicated than that.

Ultimately though, I`m not sure what the point is that you`re trying to make, since you`re neither defending the game nor agreeing with the OP. I`ll take your word that you`re pretty good at video games, good for you. At any rate, I`m glad that you reflected and changed that last comment. ;)
 

bvanevery

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I've been trying to come up with a way to explain how there's different ways of looking at the problem but the overriding factor that makes all the difference is the it's actually the player that sucks not the game. Although to be honest I'd never play Skyrim/Oblivion because they really are shit games,

You haven't played the game, you say it's a shit game without even playing it, and yet the problem is my lack of video game ability? Weird analysis dude! And no reason to take you seriously at all.

I've deleted Oblivion. I got griefed on some fighter's guild mission where I was supposed to protect this guy. Uh, turns out he's one of these immortal "gets knocked unconscious" guys, and I was the one needing the protection! I don't really care to spend all this time leveling up, only to get PWND by a mob of trolls and ogres, which have been lovingly scaled to always be superior to me no matter what I do. Been through that before, with that earlier character and the painted trolls. Had one character with enough endurance that fighting those beasts wasn't so hard, but he got PWND by the wraith, so screw this. I don't think tedious rituals for no real advancement, plus insta-death, is any kind of a winning game formula. I've wasted enough time on this.

A minor complaint is I had Security and Sneak skills, but not playing as a thief or joining the Thieves Guild, I had no source of lockpicks except what I'd occasionally find in chests and crates. Eventually I pretty much ran out, and this was before my Alteration skill was high enough to even open an Average chest. Plus, using magic to do that task, means I'm not getting any Security experience, rendering one of my skills pretty much useless. This all hearkens back to the original reason I destroyed the game 8 years ago, the lousy introductory experience as a thief.

On to something else, that doesn't have completely suck leveling. I think that's the bottom line overall, the leveling sucks.

Also, the main storyline wasn't compelling enough to want to go for it. Like, the 1st time, it doesn't work out so well because I don't know how to play yet. The 2nd time, maybe it's going better, but I restart the game because of other reasons. So then it becomes the 3rd time, and that content is becoming really redundant. Don't really want to go through it again. There are all sorts of other things to go do, so why bother with the main quest? I just don't think the main quest had a good enough delivery and hook, despite the A list voice acting. I don't think it had A list dialogue to go with the voice acting unfortunately.
 

Sly-fy

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I just don't think the main quest had a good enough delivery and hook, despite the A list voice acting. I don't think it had A list dialogue to go with the voice acting unfortunately.

And they give us a character voiced by Sir Patrick Stewart
only to have him killed off in the same scene...
 

bvanevery

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Well clearly they couldn't afford to have him for the whole game. He did have 1 or 2 really good lines in his part, and the overall part was decent. But yeah, uh, the beginning is one of the better parts of the game. That's a problem.

They didn't give Sean Bean good enough lines to keep me motivated.
 

Sly-fy

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@bvanevery - I've just remembered, there are some funny, albeit unintentional VA bloopers in the game which someone has compiled into a blooper reel on YouTube. Check it out if that interests you.
 

bvanevery

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I found someone's fabricated reel of stuff, but it wasn't bloopers. Have lost interest.
 

bvanevery

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Re: best RPG?

Planescape: Torment (The best retro cRPG)

It had its charms but the beginning of it really didn't impress me that much, certainly not to the level of the storytelling reputation it has gained over the years. Makes me wonder if people just didn't have a lot to choose from back then, so it seemed great by comparison.

TES III: Morrowind (the best TES and the best early open world game)

Not impressed, it's one of the ones I've snapped in half. I seem to recall interminable leveling, but I know I have a more detailed critique out on the internet somewhere. My disdain for Morrowind is part of why I had so little patience for Oblivion when I first bought it. Like you're pulling stupid crap AGAIN??

Witcher II & III (the most modern 'best' RPG on the list, Witcher III does it all, tells a compelling story, has an immersive open world and a moderately challenging gameplay on the hardest difficulty)

Perhaps I will try III again, but I object to being housed with a slinky naked chick without warning. Nor did I want binary dialog choices about being a lesser or greater authoritarian to Pippi Longstocking. I would also rather have played Pippi than the character I was supposed to be. I very much enjoyed jumping off a cliff to my death though.

Be sure to check your difficulty settings before hating the game.

I play "normal" difficulty and if the game designers can't come up with a good experience under that designation, I say they are bad designers. If I wanted my teeth kicked I'd play "Hard". If I wanted an unchallenging walkthrough I'd play "Easy". I think game companies often don't playtest their stuff enough before release, and they don't necessarily fix things with later patches either.
 

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Re: best RPG?

I play "normal" difficulty and if the game designers can't come up with a good experience under that designation, I say they are bad designers. If I wanted my teeth kicked I'd play "Hard". If I wanted an unchallenging walkthrough I'd play "Easy". I think game companies often don't playtest their stuff enough before release, and they don't necessarily fix things with later patches either.
Assuming the difficulty is designed with the 'average' player in mind, you are certainly below the average if you have trouble in a number of casual-oriented games like pillars of eternity or oblivion. Therefore, you should consider playing on easy if you have problems with the challenges the games throw at you.

You are the statistical outlier, designers got their work right.

Also, for someone looking to learn how to make games, you sound overly opinionated and close-minded despite your limited experience in the area.

No other comments, you aren't going to understand what I say.
 

bvanevery

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Re: best RPG?

Assuming the difficulty is designed with the 'average' player in mind, you are certainly below the average if you have trouble in a number of casual-oriented games like pillars of eternity or oblivion.

Baloney. Walk down the road to a forest to get something you need, notice some ghost going into the trees, follow because it looks interesting, get set upon by 5 wolves, you die. That's not me, that's the game design. I didn't play PoE on Easy either, like it recommended to people who don't want any difficulty. I played it on Normal. Well their version of Normal is to kick you in the teeth for no good reason.

My problem with Oblivion isn't getting through most of the game. I got through plenty of it. My problem is having these random occasional enemies that just PWN you for no particularly good discernable reason. That's just bad design, especially considering the gratuitous enemy leveling, making all your own leveling pointless. I guess you think having random opponents that kill you for no observably good reason is fun. I don't, I think it's lazy / bad game design and Oblivion exhausted my patience for that sort of thing. I don't think Bethesda is all that good at designing games frankly. They do some things ok and others they screw the pooch in similar ways title after title.

You are the statistical outlier, designers got their work right.
You haven't proven that at all. Either as to my abilities in these games, or what other players actually experience.

Also, for someone looking to learn how to make games, you sound overly opinionated and close-minded despite your limited experience in the area.
Oh good grief. Will you cease teaching your grandma how to suck eggs?
 

redbaron

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Re: best RPG?

bvanevery said:
You haven't proven that at all. Either as to my abilities in these games, or what other players actually experience.
I guarantee that if you're struggling to stay alive in Oblivion/Pillars on normal difficulty then you're below the average. Or it's possible the average player is just way worse than I'm giving them credit for.

bvanevery said:
Baloney. Walk down the road to a forest to get something you need, notice some ghost going into the trees, follow because it looks interesting, get set up on by 5 wolves, you die. That's not me, that's the game design.
No it's you. The default version of Pillars of Eternity really isn't hard. On Normal difficulty with default settings the game practically holds your hand and tells you how to succeed step by step. It's only challenging for people who opt to remove the extras and play a harder version.
 

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Re: best RPG?

What can I say other than ehh *shrug*. If you walk into a dragon cave at level 1, as it is possible in some rpg's then don't uninstall the game after you die once and maybe, just maybe take another path, become stronger and visit that dragon cave later? Unless you have some ultra strict rules about permadeath and if your character dies once you delete the save and blame it all on the devs.

As a matter of fact some engagements are made to be tough, to be exciting, to bring your attention, to create this feeling of accomplishment after a struggle.

I mean you are supposedly a fan of open world games, and now you diss game design which allows you to encounter higher level enemies just because you are allowed to roam free. Guess what, that's immersive, some fishes are bigger and you don't go at them with your small equipment and stats, that's realistic that you have to run away from certain things as you would normally.

So instead of this clear open world experience you prefer devs to hold your hand and tailor everything to your needs? This directly conflicts with the assumptions of open world games, that the user chooses their experience and content they like, it kills exploration, kills realism, it's actually funny how contradictory your expectations are.

Btw. I bet that if you were sneaking, you'd see those wolves before they saw you first, giving you ample opportunity to weigh your chances and retreat. I played that game. You didn't take precautions and it's only reasonable that you were punished for it.
 

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Re: best RPG?

Pillars of Eternity can be pretty hard on max difficulty, but on normal? :S I dont know tho, never played normal. The wolf encounter in the beginning of the game is pretty harsh yeah, cause you have like no abilities and no party and you can get straight overpowered.. but thats an outlier.

Oblivion on the other hand is just super easy tho?
 

bvanevery

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Re: best RPG?

I guarantee that if you're struggling to stay alive in Oblivion/Pillars on normal difficulty then you're below the average. Or it's possible the average player is just way worse than I'm giving them credit for.

I don't think you're reading what I wrote, but on the chance that I'm not communicating clearly enough, I'll try again. I didn't have any problem staying alive in Oblivion in general. Frankly at the point in time when I quit, I was Guildmaster of the Thieves Guild and had the black cowl. So clearly I know how to get through a lot of stuff. I could kill ogres and trolls with melee and deadly potions no problem, because I had actually evolved as a sort of alchemist / Nordic fighter / thief sort of thing. My ability to hang tough in combat wasn't at issue. The problem is, I get to some stupid Ayelid ruin with a wraith at the bottom of it, and this nearly dead wraith totally PWNs me in close combat. When I only needed a few blows of a silver mace to finish it off! At that point I decided this game was just out to grief me. It didn't care what my level or power was, it was always going to throw something gratuitously harder at me, that would kill me for capricious reasons I'd never be able to deduce. Leveling in the game is a complete waste of time, they just decide you're gonna die anyways.

No it's you. The default version of Pillars of Eternity really isn't hard.

And as I said, I didn't play that. The default is EASY. I played NORMAL. Which should give one a normal level of challenge IMO, not a cakewalk. A pack of 5 wolves when you only have 1 Barbarian and 1 Wizard in your party is not a remotely fair fight. You will die. And I got into that fight, because they had done something interesting to make me think it was worth walking off the main road in that direction. The message was, "We didn't balance any of this, we're gonna punish you for wandering around and exploring." So I said to hell with this, I was only demoing the game anyways.

On Normal difficulty with default settings the game practically holds your hand and tells you how to succeed step by step.

Not my experience at the patch level I played. Which was all the patches available AFAIK.
 

Brontosaurie

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Re: best RPG?

I don't think you're reading what I wrote, but on the chance that I'm not communicating clearly enough, I'll try again. I didn't have any problem staying alive in Oblivion in general. Frankly at the point in time when I quit, I was Guildmaster of the Thieves Guild and had the black cowl. So clearly I know how to get through a lot of stuff. I could kill ogres and trolls with melee and deadly potions no problem, because I had actually evolved as a sort of alchemist / Nordic fighter / thief sort of thing. My ability to hang tough in combat wasn't at issue. The problem is, I get to some stupid Ayelid ruin with a wraith at the bottom of it, and this nearly dead wraith totally PWNs me in close combat. When I only needed a few blows of a silver mace to finish it off! At that point I decided this game was just out to grief me. It didn't care what my level or power was, it was always going to throw something gratuitously harder at me, that would kill me for capricious reasons I'd never be able to deduce. Leveling in the game is a complete waste of time, they just decide you're gonna die anyways.



And as I said, I didn't play that. The default is EASY. I played NORMAL. Which should give one a normal level of challenge IMO, not a cakewalk. A pack of 5 wolves when you only have 1 Barbarian and 1 Wizard in your party is not a remotely fair fight. You will die. And I got into that fight, because they had done something interesting to make me think it was worth walking off the main road in that direction. The message was, "We didn't balance any of this, we're gonna punish you for wandering around and exploring." So I said to hell with this, I was only demoing the game anyways.



Not my experience at the patch level I played. Which was all the patches available AFAIK.

You didn't have issues with the difficulty in general, but you quit because the game was always going to throw something gratuitously harder at you.
 

bvanevery

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Re: best RPG?

You didn't have issues with the difficulty in general, but you quit because the game was always going to throw something gratuitously harder at you.

Yes; where "gratuitous" means at random, capriciously, without reason, without foreshadowing, without any way I as a player would have been cognizant that I was getting into something troublesome. Like old school D&D where you walk around a corner and HEY YOU DIE. No thanks.

The problem of how to calibrate an expectation of enemy difficulty is an important one, I think. This was hardly the 1st wraith I had fought either. Why should this wraith be such a badass to summarily kill me, when so many others weren't? Only because Oblivion is a static world where enemies are gratuitously leveled, so that you'll be "challenged" no matter what time in your character development you encounter the particular dungeon. I find that kind of static "increase the HP" design to be pretty lame and I won't be emulating it in my own work.
 

Brontosaurie

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Re: best RPG?

Yes; where "gratuitous" means at random, capriciously, without reason, without foreshadowing, without any way I as a player would have been cognizant that I was getting into something troublesome. Like old school D&D where you walk around a corner and HEY YOU DIE. No thanks.

Your experience doesn't seem to be common among the players here.

You sound very much like someone who just isn't that good at a video game (i emphasize: a video game) and just can't handle it. You must realize that a video game isn't very important and that it's perfectly fine to kinda suck at it. This will greatly improve your condition.
 

bvanevery

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Re: best RPG?

Your experience doesn't seem to be common among the players here.

I remember one guy in another thread saying 1) I suck, 2) Bethesda's games suck, and 3) he hadn't played any of them. So I'm finding a need to calibrate other people's credentials. To wit:

You sound very much like someone who just isn't that good at a video game (i emphasize: a video game) and just can't handle it.

Have you played Oblivion?

You must realize that a video game isn't very important and that it's perfectly fine to kinda suck at it. This will greatly improve your condition.

Do you know what Combat! is? Do you have any idea how much seniority I have over most of you as far as playing and beating video games goes?
 

Brontosaurie

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Re: best RPG?

I remember one guy in another thread saying 1) I suck, 2) Bethesda's games suck, and 3) he hadn't played any of them. So I'm finding a need to calibrate other people's credentials. To wit:

Several people in this thread have played the games you refer to and didn't find them hard or unfair.

Have you played Oblivion?

No. I don't play boring crap games.

Nothing here is contingent on me having played Oblivion. Why are you asking if i've played Oblivion?

Do you know what Combat! is? Do you have any idea how much seniority I have over most of you as far as playing and beating video games goes?

No, i don't know what Combat! is.

Beating video games doesn't matter. That's the trick.
 

Yellow

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Re: best RPG?

I find it quite odd that I never ran into that one before, as I thought I was aware of all "worthwhile" open source game development efforts. I was doing a lot of Linux in 2012 when it was formally released. I could swear I have a vague memory of something called ToME that really didn't work. Hm, whatever.
Maybe it's an accessibility issue. I have to go into the command line to load the game every time.
 

bvanevery

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Re: best RPG?

Several people in this thread have played the games you refer to and didn't find them hard or unfair.

I'm actually feeling a need to make a credentials check on various people, because I'm actually doubting their Oblivion experience in some cases. For those that actually did, then I think a Bartle Type inquiry or some such is in order. Someone who's oriented to be a kind of Achiever badass, who thinks Iron Man style of play is the greatest idea ever invented, probably isn't someone I should be talking about (un)satisfying game experiences with. Such people live for abuse and overcoming abuse, and think anyone who doesn't see it that way, is a wimp.

No. I don't play boring crap games.

Nothing here is contingent on me having played Oblivion. Why are you asking if i've played Oblivion?

You are not qualified to criticize my playing ability in Oblivion, as compared to a potential deficiency of the game itself, if you haven't even played Oblivion.

No, i don't know what Combat! is.

It is the cartridge that comes with an Atari 2600. I am a FIRST GENERATION video gamer. Nintendo is NEW shit to me. I have been dodging and killing stuff long before you were born. I'm old enough to know what a 'quarter eater' is and to have avoided them. I was decent at the arcade version of Donkey Kong, and good at Phoenix.
 

Brontosaurie

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Re: best RPG?

Probably it doesn't take a manic "achiever badass" to successfully and reliable tackle snoozefest Oblivion on normal difficulty, dude.

Your age and Atari are irrelevant.

All the others are more trustworthy than you, also they're in agreement, also their experience and opinion make more sense seeing as you're talking about a run-on-the-mill snooze RPG on normal difficulty, which simply ought not be that difficult whatsoever.
 

bvanevery

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Re: best RPG?

Maybe it's an accessibility issue. I have to go into the command line to load the game every time.

Hm, well, clearly they haven't educated themselves about all quirks of all platforms. My Windows download, it failed to install because it didn't have permissions. No problem, run it as Administrator, right? Well except that made the download start all over again. Which over a slow connection is a lame inconvenience. It just indicates Linux-centric open source development, that's all. If someone knew what was going on on Windows, their installer / launcher would solve that sort of issue one way or another.
 

Jennywocky

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Re: best RPG?

Did this really become a videogame dick measuring contest?

I mean, there are others here in the same boat as you. I eventually beat Q*Bert in the arcade (walked away after 5 hours) on one quarter, played Donkey Kong, Crazy Climber, Pac*Man, Tempest, Battlezone, Rampage, and a host of crap in the arcades. Meanwhile, I was playing anything from Asteroids and Pitfall and Missile Command forwards, on my home Atari.

Anyway, I finished Morrowind, beating that game to death. I only played a bit of Oblivion before I got bored; it just seemed like "Morrowind but more of the same." I didn't necessarily find it hard, I just had to get a sense of the controls, but I lost interest.

As far as folks here go, there are some pretty avid gamers. I don't see the point in just pulling rank like you're doing, because it doesn't address the question at hand about the game's difficulty. Obviously there's a disparity in experience, and maybe it will remain unexplained. Anyway, your original goal was just to get input on what other games people have liked, so this ongoing pissing match seems counterproductive.
 

bvanevery

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Re: best RPG?

Probably it doesn't take a manic "achiever badass" to successfully and reliable tackle snoozefest Oblivion on normal difficulty, dude.

At this point I think you're simply not invested in what I actually wrote about my experience in Oblivion. I was pretty specific about it.

Your age and Atari are irrelevant.

The relevance is my ability to dodge a bullet hell is not at issue.

All the others are more trustworthy than you,

Why? Because you know them already, and have played the games they've played already, therefore you trust them? Ok fine, if they're your great peer group. Whereas I learned a long time ago, not to trust anything anyone says on the internet about a game, unless I've played it myself. People say all kinds of things.

also they're in agreement,

So you think a small sample of groupthink is what you should go by? If 5 people on INTPForum agree on something, that's good enough for you to go to the bank with? Weird.
 

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Re: best RPG?

The message was, "We didn't balance any of this, we're gonna punish you for wandering around and exploring." So I said to hell with this, I was only demoing the game anyways.
Explain why you didn't use the stealth mechanic then? Isn't it like asking for ambush?

Plenty locations involve storing bigger challenges for later use, you could continue your game but you decided to uninstall because some side content killed you? Maybe you weren't supposed to kill everything?

I find it ridiculous and not a valid basis to point mistakes out to a game developer.

Your taste and preferences are perfectly fine but you can't go about making statements on game design relying on the way you measured things.
Did this really become a videogame dick measuring contest?
No, I think the OP is just having an overly opinionated stance on game design in general and can't accept his mistakes about approaching or criticising certain games.
 

Brontosaurie

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Re: best RPG?

At this point I think you're simply not invested in what I actually wrote about my experience in Oblivion. I was pretty specific about it.



The relevance is my ability to dodge a bullet hell is not at issue.



Why? Because you know them already, and have played the games they've played already, therefore you trust them? Ok fine, if they're your great peer group. Whereas I learned a long time ago, not to trust anything anyone says on the internet about a game, unless I've played it myself. People say all kinds of things.



So you think a small sample of groupthink is what you should go by? If 5 people on INTPForum agree on something, that's good enough for you to go to the bank with? Weird.

This may come as news to you but you too are one of "people".

I didn't say 5 are good enough, i say they're a better more reliable and presumably less biased data source than 1 old weirdo who gets defensive about freaking video games.
 

bvanevery

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Re: best RPG?

Did this really become a videogame dick measuring contest?

Yeah it did, and I got really tired of hearing "your dick is just small, don't feel bad about it, it doesn't matter". 'Cuz metaphorically it isn't. I can take people seriously if they actually know what they're talking about and don't just make sweeping generalizations. Then, if we've both played the same game, and still have rather divergent attitudes about it, it helps to know if we'd diverge on pretty much ALL games.

I'm wondering to what extent it can make a game designer's work irrelevant and thankless though. Cough up any old shit, the internet is big enough that someone will probably love that shit, warts and all. Trying to refine the experience, who cares? Someone will just dick measure about it.
 

bvanevery

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Re: best RPG?

I didn't say 5 are good enough, i say they're a better more reliable and presumably less biased data source than 1 old weirdo who gets defensive about freaking video games.

Why? Really, do you seriously have it as a heuristic to "trust any 5 people instead of any 1 person?" Well I guess you'll never step in on someone being beaten to death in a bar fight or something. Not that it's necessarily your job, but I really wonder what kind of group confirmation bias you're willing to embrace.
 

bvanevery

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Re: best RPG?

Explain why you didn't use the stealth mechanic then? Isn't it like asking for ambush?

The stealth mechanic in PoE uses up real wall clock time, i.e. my life. It is not free, it makes the game take more painfully long to play. It is appropriate if I think there's a NEED to be stealthy, but following a seeming 'ghost' into the woods, that seemed like the game was prompting me to follow up on something interesting. So why should I have to be stealthy for that? And, the game had never previously assaulted me with 5 of anything.

It seemed pretty clear that I needed to leave the town I was in and go somewhere else, because I hadn't gained any solution for my slight lack of health, which the game had imposed upon me by design, no choice allowed in that regard. They told me the person I needed to talk to, was strung up on the tree in the middle of town. The jerk jested that I could search her pockets for a cure, but there was no actual ability to do that, I did try. I went to everywhere in that town, did everything, still no solution, so yep I was being forced to hit the road. Go down the road, see something interesting, get gratuitously death assaulted... my conclusion is the game is lame. Deleted.

There's a point at which you realize your game designer <-> player contract is not being respected and is not likely tenable. I reached that point with PoE fairly quickly. The UI was really slow, they were wasting my time with a gratuitous crippling + lack of direction on what to go on for a solution, then they kill me. So later for that.

The way game designers end up doing that sort of thing, is they've played their own game for so long, they've forgotten what it's like to approach it as a new player who doesn't have knowledge of the game yet. It takes a rather deliberate 'QA' mentality to approach a game 'fresh' that way.

I think the other typical cop out is the game designer says, who cares, the player will just replay the level and learn from the mistake. But the problem with the save-load mentality is, then things can take 2..3 times as long to get through, due to the trial and error. When I think my actual wall clock time is going to be disrespected that way repeatedly, I turn off pretty quick.

It wasn't the 1st dickish thing they did either. They killed 2 of my party members gratuitously by a scripted event. Absolutely nothing I could do about it, they were meant to die. Start to get interested or even invested in a minor characters life, hey poof, gone, we're writing them out. They gave me an illness at the very beginning of the game too. "We will give you an illness to compel your action" seemed to be a trope that these designers were into. Not impressed. So when they're doing it a 2nd time and not offering any solution to the problem, the trust in their intentions as designers is pretty much eroded.

Plenty locations involve storing bigger challenges for later use, you could continue your game but you decided to uninstall because some side content killed you? Maybe you weren't supposed to kill everything?

I didn't seek to kill anything! I sought to follow the 'ghost' into the woods that they had put there for me to see and become interested in. Then I was summarily ambushed by 5 wolves for daring to go off the main path. With no previous experience that this sort of thing would happen. Or any likelyhood that my party would be strong enough to withstand such an assault. Yeah tried to get a cone of flames off, if that would have even helped. Wizard was wolf meat immediately, barbarian moments later.
 

Brontosaurie

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Re: best RPG?

Why? Really, do you seriously have it as a heuristic to "trust any 5 people instead of any 1 person?" Well I guess you'll never step in on someone being beaten to death in a bar fight or something. Not that it's necessarily your job, but I really wonder what kind of group confirmation bias you're willing to embrace.

You didn't read my post so why should i respond?

You are bad at video games and you are bad at reading my post.
 

bvanevery

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Re: best RPG?

You are bad at video games

This is a false statement, which you have alternately suggested or asserted repeatedly, and it's annoying. At this point I'm checking your profile to see if you've declared yourself to be a 'J'. Will edit regarding that in a minute.

and you are bad at reading my post.

I may possibly be too annoyed to read everything about your posts carefully, because I'm 100% convinced you have deftly avoided key points of my own. Such as actually knowing what you're talking about with Oblivion.
 

bvanevery

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Re: best RPG?

YAY PRESENTS

I couldn't make any determination after searching through your past posts for about 15 minutes. So if you're 'J', I suppose you can declare that yourself. Or if there's some other reason why we're having this schism, about you needing to say something about my video gaming ability which is false, and that you have no first hand evidence of anyways, well it's for some kind of future contemplation.
 

Brontosaurie

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Re: best RPG?

I couldn't make any determination after searching through your past posts for about 15 minutes. So if you're 'J', I suppose you can declare that yourself. Or if there's some other reason why we're having this schism, about you needing to say something about my video gaming ability which is false, and that you have no first hand evidence of anyways, well it's for some kind of future contemplation.

I could be a J. I'm not sure, never was. Your input is welcome and i will readily accommodate for it, and revise my outlook accordingly.
 

bvanevery

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Re: best RPG?

I could be a J. I'm not sure, never was. Your input is welcome and i will readily accommodate for it, and revise my outlook accordingly.

A need to box people into very certain, clear cut categories is definitely a J trait. Such people seek closure in debates with definitive statements. i.e. "You are bad at video games."

Other possibilities I've considered:

* You might be a strong F, and completely willing to see the world in totally subjective terms. Ergo if you say I'm bad at video games, what I have to say about it may be irrelevant to you, because you've decided it's important to you to say it. Whereas I think a 'T' would want to establish in objective terms, why I'd be good or bad at video games and how that would be measured. I'm a strong 'T' so declarations despite evidence, or made with lack of evidence, are pretty noticeable to me.

* 'T's can come into conflict very much like T vs. F, if their guiding principles have been deeply violated. In which case there might be some kind of principle that we each think is objective, but that we clearly don't share. I think, for instance, that you have to play a video game to have a valid opinion on it, or on someone else's skill at it. Perhaps you have some different model about valid social consensus as to what constitutes knowledge, and I definitely don't agree with that. Knowledge is not a democracy, the 1 guy out of 100 can definitely be right and the other 99 wrong.

* The schism could be something outside the MBTI. I've learned from experience in this forum that MBTI definitely does not specify all aspects of people's personality or beliefs.

* You could be deliberately trolling me. As in, you deliberately say false things about me to push my buttons, to see if you can get a rise. No intent to genuinely argue any points. I don't usually assume this kind of behavior out of people, nor am I generally willing to ascribe it, as I think it's usually a crutch to accuse people of it. But some of your other posts I dug up, made me wonder. You might be the kind of person who enjoys making insincere statements to see what effect or reaction they'll have in a forum. A sort of "Whee! I don't take this so seriously" attitude. Whereas, I personally have a line about not deliberately trying to bother or antagonize people.

So that's what I've imagined is possible, and it's enough contemplation for the amount of input I have in front of me. I know for fact I'm a 'P', so it's not like I require a verdict on this. If one eventually comes, that's fine.
 

Cherry Cola

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Re: best RPG?

I think you just dont get how youre supposed to play pillars of eternity, ie you havent properly read the contract you signed and thats why you think its not being respected, its a kickstarter crpg made mainly for people who have played and enjoy crpgs, ergo ppl who want a game that forces them to play smart and show caution in the face of uncertainty, you should probably just have picked easy

regarding oblivion.. I dont know how the hell you fail at that game, I suppose if you make the wrong choices leveling up then things can get tougher cause the enemies will get stronger faster than you sooort of?.. even so dude :cat:

personally I thought the difficulty level in pillars was pretty good most of the time, certainly prefer it a million times over compared to crap like the witcher 3 or dragon age inquisition where even at maximum difficulty everything becomes so trivial combat is rendered completely meaningless and utterly unrewarding after a while

witcher 3 started out pretty hard, you could get nuked easily and the random awkward animations didnt help.. but sure enough once your gear and leveling choices start to matter even I started to pwn most everything, and im not even really good at that game, I just made decent choices..

dragon age inquisition.. much worse.. some challenge right at the beginning of the game at max difficulty on the first playthrough, then everything gets trivial so long as you have some idea of how to level your characters.. I cant even imagine playing that crap on anything below max difficulty

its because of people like you that most games are like that, you should feel bad
 
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