NTPs

[EyeSeeCold]

So I had another concept I was working on: every types archetypal role in society.

So far I was thinking ENTPs are programmed in such a way as to criticize and reform the world through the changing of people's thinking. They manipulate people and cause them to reflect upon their own personal values, beliefs and lifestyles to question it, and then start on a new slate. Individualism is the key here, but on a global scale. The machine is being deconstructed, one cog at a time. The end result is enlightened people.

INTPs, I thought, are programmed to criticize and reform the world through the changing of society. They manipulate customs, traditions and laws, to cause people to question their own allegiance to such absurd conventions to start on a new slate. Socialism is the key here, but on a personal level. Society needs to change so the people can live better lives. The end result is an enlightened state.

As a young rebel I couldn't help but become attracted to the Soviet Union's Communism and the Communist Manifesto. I wanted society to change but I had people's lives in mind.

 

[gruesomebrat]

Is this just an 'open for discussion', or is there a question buried in here?

Although I haven't spent much time yet learning about the different types, this seems (from what little I do know) like it would be relatively accurate. Extroverts, when looking to reform the world, would seem more likely to focus on the people aspect of reform. This makes sense, simply because Extroverts are primarily "people-person's".

As far as your thoughts on INTP reform, I know, personally, I'm more inclined to try to change the system than to change the people in said system. The problem with this is that some people who are served well by the current system, might not be under other. Entrepreneurs, for example, can make a good life for themselves in a capitalistic system, if their business idea is good, whereas under a communist system, entrepreneurial spirit doesn't tend to thrive. While I agree that Leninism is a sound theoretical social system, it does not seem to bear the change from theory to practice very well. Soviet Union, PRC, Korea, and Vietnam are all examples of 'Communist' states that didn't/haven't followed the theory as well as possible.

Cuba, in fact, seems to be the only state which has managed to incorporate the theory's of Lenin in their institutions. While Cuba is still ruled by a dictator, the same as the other Communist states, Castro is at least a benevolent dictator, who has managed to turn Cuba into as close to a true Communist state as possible.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Open for discussion, I suppose. I was just throwing the concept out there. By socialism I don't mean strictly in the political sense, but with more of a focus on unification. I wish it didn't have such connotations/denotations, the word could serve more than its current meaning.

To expand, I figure EJs and IPs are focused on society as a whole with a plan to "hit home". While EPs and IJs focus on individuals with a big picture goal.

A practical example would be billboard advertising vs telemarketing.

 

[dark]

NTPs sounds so cool. I know I am not the only one that is proud when they read stuff like that. I wouldn't say we "manipulate" that has such a negative connotation, more like having people do what we want because we allow them to think it was their idea or something of the sort.

Also are N types the only ones not satisfied with the system? A lot of S types I know, such as my family and friends, are all fine with the system, but all the N types I know absolutely hate it. I take pride in hating it the most though.

I agree, my current goal to change things is to become an educator. I think I am doing a good job so far and I am still in school, when I become a philosophy teacher, hopefully with a PhD I will be able to reach to even more people, change how they look at things etc. It feels nice that I can change things simply by making people see things the way I do. As above I have only made small changes, not very big, but I have helped some people think differently in the past year.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Well I think N types either focus on the emergent trends or the positive possibilities. I'm not so sure with S though. I haven't really gotten so far with this concept beyond NTP and a couple other types.

 

[LPolaright]

The one thing that changes here is the Introversion or Extroversion (At-least regarding the NTPs). That means that the order of the functions changes.

Extroverts:
Ne-Ti | Fe-Si

Meaning it will be enlightened people on a global scale, yes. But! it would also mean that they are enlightened by the definition of the ENTP individual.

Introverts:
Ti-Ne | Si-Fe

I think it makes less sense that they will base their manipulation through customs and traditions, because they put less focus on their Fe. But it makes sense on the other note of being in a more normalized perception state.

SFJ's should fit your theory aswell because they have the same functions, should they not? Only the basis changes, they should manipulate according to how they developed their feeling (Fi) through laws and concrete ideals or facts. And they would also probably plan the manipulation ahead.

Both of the types would have a certain goal that they would not deviate from, both will fit methods to the end result.

Just sharing my thoughts.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

I have read each volume of 'Das Kapital' and the 'Communist Manifesto'. The books sit to my copy of 'Theory of Money and Credit' by Mises and Macroeconomics' by Krugman.

I was raised in an environment that advocated Fabian Socialism and I was deluded into thinking that capitalism was a system of enforcing social stratification of wealth by coercion of wealthy because they had the money and power. I though that advocates of capitalism were essentially who wished to exploit the working class and government was required to tame such behaviour. It is apparent that the belief outlined above is held by numerous people. Around 11 years of age it dawned on me that such arguments were insufficient to maintain a belief system. In order to remedy ignorance I decided to read all literature that is on the subject of economic philosophy. It took many years and personal growth to form an opinion on the subject.

'I once was ignorant, now I'm a little less ignorant.'

People think/feel that the faults in the current system is due to the capitalist mode of production and socialism is the remedy to solve society's problems and uphold the intertwined notions of egalitarianism and utilitarianism in an unholy combination. In reality the faults in the current system that has caused the great miss allocation of resources is due to conservative and socialist policy. Both of these ideologies and their respected policies had created a plutocracy disguised by a joke of a side show called 'Democracy.' Both directly or indirectly allocated resources to sectors of the economy which simply do not require such resources.

People of the left persuasion perceive the faults in the system to be the faults of capitalism and greed but they fail to adequately to identify that conservatives are not true proponents of capitalism and their own policies regarding wealth redistribution simply do not work. The proponents of conservatism seem to believe in a preordain hierarchical power structures. They may state that they advocate free enterprise but that simply entails free enterprise for their one corporation.

Some people are just blind to see that there is a problem in the first place.

Communism and to a lesser degree socialism, fail both in theory and practice due to a fundamental flaw. The flaw is that it is impossible to value resources and demand to a sufficient degree of accuracy in order to distribute resources to gain the greatest value.

Intuitive individuals and idealists see the world as it could be. However, attaining a grand vision does not entail that the vision can be achieved by their desired methods. In all circumstances their methodology will simply compound the issues that society faces.

An eccentric entp I know rants on about social justice, very passionate. He wants to redistribute wealth to the poor. Though, he fails to realize that perhaps some people are poor for reasons other than being born poor such as they don't provide value to society. I debated with him once and lost because he had the empathetic high ground.

I have rarely observed intps put grand ideas into practice.

---

Ohh god I think I'm a: http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/capitalista.htm

 

[EyeSeeCold]

@LPolaright

Yes ISFJs should have a role too, I haven't gotten past NTP though.

@ProxyAmenRa

Didn't mean to be so political but you have brought up some good points. Most people get their ideas of Capitalism from the negative realities in everyday life and their ideas of Socialism/Communism from the idyllic aspects that have never been attained by any of the present or former Communist states. I have not fully read the Communist Manifesto or let alone any other collectivist works, myself, but I maintain the distinction between ideal and practical. Yet I cannot say for myself that I have an authentic perspective on any system.

But to relate this back to types, I do think INTPs are more attuned to the framework of Socialism, the basic notion of people coming together to better society, if not the system itself.

 

[EvilScientist Trainee]

Yes ISFJs should have a role too, I haven't gotten past NTP though.

I'm looking forward to see the other types roles too. If there is a commission for design, I want to be in there.

But in what do you base those roles? Function archetypes, for instance?

 

[EyeSeeCold]

I'm looking forward to see the other types roles too. If there is a commission for design, I want to be in there.

But in what do you base those roles? Function archetypes, for instance?

Yea, archetypes from descriptions, especially Keirsey, but reflection also. INTPs look lazy on the outside but we could dish out some really good ideas to better society, most of these ideas don't even get a second opinion.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

I think I'm following a typical tj path of deduction in these matters. Not exactly searching for the ideal scenario. Atleast I get to bag out conservatives.

 

[Jon C]

My theory is that the main difference between INTPs and ENTPs, is the fact while we both have viewpoints that are in opposition to society norms, ENTPs may become more discouraged when the masses fail to oblige with their proposals. INTPs are used to seclusion and solitude, so in the event that our views are not accepted by society, we simply head back to our seclusion and continue to formulate our viewpoints, unaffected by their failure to be received. ENTPs on the other hand are used to social interactions and yearn for social acceptance. So in the event that their views are not accepted by society, they are most likely more prone to either slip into a depression state, or simply wear a mask that society more readily accepts, even though it's not their true selves.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

^ I say that INTPs target society though, not people. So when people turn down their ideas, of course they are not fazed because society already rejects the ideas. ENTPs target people, and when those people do not follow through it is in direct opposition to their goal.

 

[Moocow]

Actually the way I tend to look at intuition is seeking to unify ideas. Ne unifies ideas in the present by seeking connections between what is presented and ideas in the unconscious, while Ni seeks to unify things by working from a decidedly completed worldview and building upon it. It looks for universal principles.

Sensing tends to see things as separate. Se focuses on discriminating details in the present, while Si tends to lay out a structured categorization of past experiences.

In this way intuitives often seek reforms because they are inclined to see how things connect, or COULD be connected when they may not be in reality. Sensors tend to like a society that defines every aspect of itself as clearly and categorically as possible.

I'd say both are necessary. The balance between constantly unifying and dividing itself in new ways is the course of all nature.

 

[Jon C]

^ I say that INTPs target society though, not people. So when people turn down their ideas, of course they are not fazed because society already rejects the ideas. ENTPs target people, and when those people do not follow through it is in direct opposition to their goal.

Very accurate. I didn't think to take into account that the goals of the original goals of the INTP differ from that of the ENTP, so of course they are affected differently by the results.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Actually the way I tend to look at intuition is seeking to unify ideas. Ne unifies ideas in the present by seeking connections between what is presented and ideas in the unconscious, while Ni seeks to unify things by working from a decidedly completed worldview and building upon it. It looks for universal principles.

Sensing tends to see things as separate. Se focuses on discriminating details in the present, while Si tends to lay out a structured categorization of past experiences.

In this way intuitives often seek reforms because they are inclined to see how things connect, or COULD be connected when they may not be in reality. Sensors tend to like a society that defines every aspect of itself as clearly and categorically as possible.

I'd say both are necessary. The balance between constantly unifying and dividing itself in new ways is the course of all nature.

No functions please, just observation.

 

[Moocow]

No functions please, just observation.

That is from observation. I'm not sure how else you want me to state it if not with functions. Intuition as a single ideas is very vague, and the functions give us some way of discerning at least two categories of it.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

When you interpret observations in terms of functions there is room for misapplication. I'd just like to know what you think of the typical NTP attitude, as an individual, towards society and people.

 

[Moocow]

When you interpret observations in terms of functions there is room for misapplication. I'd just like to know what you think of the typical NTP attitude, as an individual, towards society and people.

Ah, well I'd have to say that NTPs in general love doubt because it pervades every part of our thoughts and outlook.
ENTPs especially. I don't think it's that they want to reform anything in particular or have a cause in mind, it's more that they oppose the limitations we place on our definitions of reality, and our structures of living. NTPs seem to hate above all else hypocritical or contradictory beliefs and systems, when we are the some of the most adept at seeing what would be sensible with the largest possible scheme of things. It's about deconstructing the small puzzles so we can piece together larger ones.

I hope that's a better answer. Honestly I get a bit sick of hearing people try to use functions to explain things, myself. Sometimes I wonder if Jung even had a clear idea what he was talking about.

 

[JarNew]

YES YES YES YES YES YES YES TOTALLY

YES

YES

Some EXCELLENT TOOLS for this are knowing how to read body language, realizing the change in people's tones, and not being afraid to push buttons or take it too far.

Nothing in this world is set nor solid. Everything has a weak point

Pleasure > Pain

YES!

 

[shoeless]

So far I was thinking ENTPs are programmed in such a way as to criticize and reform the world through the changing of people's thinking. They manipulate people and cause them to reflect upon their own personal values, beliefs and lifestyles to question it, and then start on a new slate. Individualism is the key here, but on a global scale. The machine is being deconstructed, one cog at a time. The end result is enlightened people.

that sounds exactly like me. supposedly i'm one of those ENTP folks (if you trust adymus, which, i do to a degree) so i guess that makes sense.