Not entirely random

[Gather_Wanderer]

(And that's why this didn't go in that thread.)


This forum kind of blows now.

I came here in 2010 because I, like most new members, was trying to learn more about myself. I thought there was an explanation to why I'm 'weird', I guess.
I have learned many things about typology and cognitive functions and the like, and I do believe it has enhanced my view to some degree. There are also some cool, smart, and friendly people here that I've enjoyed chatting with. In terms of being a refugee in a social society dominated by more extroverted types, it served as an outlet to bond, so to speak, although that never really happened to a large extent (and I not sure I wanted it to).

Since then I've grown a little (I hope?). I don't think INTPs or any of the other NTs or introverted types are actually like 1-2% of the population or somehow more special or unique than the other types. I don't think INTPs are naturally smarter than the other types...though I admit I was holding out on that one for a while. I don't even think the same way about natural genius anymore. I realize that people do have a propensity for certain things (like logic and analysis) in life and express themselves in particular ways, some of which may be attributed to cognitive ability--but that doesn't mean a guy who maybe doesn't have a propensity for a certain thing is excluded from brilliance in those things.
And I think what we call natural genius is basically inspired thinking, or more specifically, a mind tapped into a source beyond itself. Geniuses should be celebrated but not worshipped. Sure the idea jumped out of them but did it really originate in their mind? I don't think so.

There is pain and suffering, some doom and gloom in this world. But I've gotten to a point at which, you know, I realize its there but I'm not going to make excuses for why nothing else good can happen because of it. In fact, I think a lot of good can be had despite the lots of bad that often happens in the world.

(I totally forgot what point I'm trying to make. Going to continue.)

For some reason, the vibe I get here often is...best way I can describe it, is with a color: grey. Bleak outlooks.

--I don't know what to do with my life.
--I'm lost
--I don't believe in anything
--Morals are relative
--Society sucks


Shit is depressing yo.

But let me hesitate to bash anyone because, again, at one point this place served as a haven for my grey bleakness. But I don't want to be that way anymore.

I see some troubling things developing in the world today. I think humanity is about to go through some serious shit. It'll be bad for everybody but half the people won't even know it because they've been turned into figurative zombies, including many people who think they are informed, intelligent citizens. Deception is thick, almost suffocating until you take a step back out of the muck and look around you.

(I forgot where I'm going with this again)

Oh right, this forum blows now.

I thought I could count on it for quality discussion and thought food but I don't get it often here. I don't know if I ever did.

I am still fond of the fun/joke/goofy threads though. My sense of humor is less likely to be lost on people here, though there is still a strange dynamic at play: an INTP guy might find something funny another one says but fail to respond in the spirit of the intended humor. So the INTP joke maker just feels awkward wondering if the other guy got the joke. The other guy got it but either responded 'randomly' in a way related to wherever his mind was bouncing at the time, or he gets distracted by something else and ignored the joke entirely.

Ok....

Just... I don't know.

The world isn't grey. Its colorful, vibrant, full of possibilities.
ALWAYS hesitate before you think you have shit figured out.
But, at the same time....
Don't question everything. There are some things that don't need to be questioned.
DO question the foundations of your thought. Where do those thoughts come from and why do you assume they are correct? Why do you assume your model of reasoning is correct? Statistical reasons, Intuition, or are you just making excuses?




...This will make sense to at least one of you.

EDIT: This totally should've gone in the random thoughts thread.

 

[Rook]

The world isn't grey. Its colorful, vibrant, full of possibilities.

Spoiler

The world is grey, colorful, vibrant and full of possibilities.
Embracing only one side of the spectrum that you perceive counts as delusion, no matter which side one chooses to embrace.

Reality is admiring the photons reaching one's eyes from the feathers of a dead parrot while cursing the universe for it's demise, and later roasting it for sustenance.

 

[Black Rose]

One of my favorite things to do is go to bestbuy and watch the video game display.
It make me feel like the world is bigger than my house.

https://youtu.be/KSuB4t3q_dA

 

[Haim]

The thing that make a genius a genius is not that he had the idea,it is that he looked for it in the first place,the genius ability to ask the right questions.
Saying that every idea is taken from somewhere else is like saying every woodcraft is made of wood,yes there are a lot of woodcraft from the same kind of wood,but the craft is difference,what you do with the wood is not the same.

 

[Tannhauser]

Indeed. (to your whole post)

Perhaps there is a thing at the core of it that will always erode a community like this. When someone comes here from the perspective of "being INTP", they seek a place to let their INTP-ness run wild, to "be themselves" for once.

But the rules of human communication and human interaction are no different here. If one wants to be understood, while being oneself, that requires finesse. It requires paying attention to what one contributes to the environment, to step out of one's physiology and suppress one's bad habits, and bring the best of oneself. We know that is true in the world, and it is true anywhere.

 

[Architect]

I don't think INTPs or any of the other NTs or introverted types are actually like 1-2% of the population or somehow more special or unique than the other types.

Isn't that the definition of being a couple percent?

(I forgot where I'm going with this again)

Oh right, this forum blows now.

Meaningful.

 

[redbaron]

This forum is dark and edgy like my soul.

 

[The Gopher]

--Morals are relative

Is this bleak? I was going to say something more but then realised I could totally argue both sides and my argument hasn't extended to the point where I believe one yet.

The world is grey, colorful, vibrant and full of possibilities.
Embracing only one side of the spectrum that you perceive counts as delusion, no matter which side one chooses to embrace.

Delusion is the best. I love delusion, pity my soul is torn towards the arts where tragedy reigns supreme.

I have to admit it's entirely my fault. I have sucked the life out of the forum like the rapture. (sorry I just wanted to use the word rapture) Only the darkness and grey ones are left. Everyone else is enjoying staying in The Gophers fun play land. Admission costs are cheap, only one. (Notice, you aren't supposed to notice no currency is specified. Continue to not notice this notice.)

 

[Rook]

Only the darkness and grey ones are left. Everyone else is enjoying staying in The Gophers fun play land. Admission costs are cheap, only one.

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-3i0CFloQU

 

[NormannTheDoorman]

You kind of summed up how I feel about this forum. I expected the same thing, but then again I was pretty young when I signed on. 18 now, and I'm not sure if I'm wiser. Though I hope I am.

 

[Gather_Wanderer]

Spoiler

The world is grey, colorful, vibrant and full of possibilities.
Embracing only one side of the spectrum that you perceive counts as delusion, no matter which side one chooses to embrace.

Reality is admiring the photons reaching one's eyes from the feathers of a dead parrot while cursing the universe for it's demise, and later roasting it for sustenance.

Hey, who said I embrace only one side? You must not have read my entire post

Isn't that the definition of being a couple percent?

I'm saying I don't think they actually are only 1-2% of the population. I've come to find that INTs are much more common in the world than is often thought here.

Meaningful.

Yeah, I could have went without saying that.

The thing that make a genius a genius is not that he had the idea,it is that he looked for it in the first place,the genius ability to ask the right questions.
Saying that every idea is taken from somewhere else is like saying every woodcraft is made of wood,yes there are a lot of woodcraft from the same kind of wood,but the craft is difference,what you do with the wood is not the same.

I agree a lot with this. I didn't explain myself clearly enough here. Its just that, in my own observations, I'm beginning to think differently about how information travels in the universe and ultimately where it comes from. When I say 'information' I'm speaking of energy in general. I think the, um, 'genius' should get credit for developing his or her thought into some coherent, workable thing. But I question whether the idea existed prior to the genius delivery into the world. I tend to think so but its something I'm working on, so my opinion isn't too strongly in any direction just yet.

 

[Brontosaurie]

Your post shows good spirit and although we haven't interacted, it brings hope to know you harbor and vitalize these reflections.

 

[Mordecai]

I think the grey displayed by this forum reflects our thoughts for the outcome of humanity. You said it yourself, humanity is about to go through some serious stuff.

But what would I know, I'm colorblind.

P.S. Don't be the guy who whines about something but never acts on it. I hate that. If you want the forum to have an intellectual conversation, start one.

 

[Sinny91]

P.S. Don't be the guy who whines about something but never acts on it. I hate that. If you want the forum to have an intellectual conversation, start one.

Seconded.

 

[Gather_Wanderer]

I think the grey displayed by this forum reflects our thoughts for the outcome of humanity. You said it yourself, humanity is about to go through some serious stuff.

But what would I know, I'm colorblind.

P.S. Don't be the guy who whines about something but never acts on it. I hate that. If you want the forum to have an intellectual conversation, start one.

You're right. It's actually selfish on my part to have been this way, though my initial sentiment still is what it is. I joined here figuring most contributors would probably have more interesting things to say than I, and I'd be able to marinate on their thoughts and respond later. 'Thought food', as I mentioned in the OP. Even if not more interesting, I certainly prefer to 'chime in' occasionally rather than be a frequent conversation starter.

I always figure my thoughts are interesting to me but they might not necessarily be as much to other people. I prefer to sit in the background and observe, just as I do in my everyday life.

Also, what has happened most often over the last five years is someone already says what I'm going to say before I say it, which one might expect in a community like this.

 

[TheTryHard]

I feel like I'm not totally eligible to have an opinion because I just recently joined the forum, but I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. When I try to summarize your post in one sentence it's this:

"This forum really helped me when I wasn't at my best but now it doesn't so it needs to change".

You even make a similar point yourself but then proceed to critique the forum some more.

The "I'm lost" threads are usually people looking for input from someone who can relate. Should they stop doing that because you see them as grey?

I need to quote a random reddit post here: (https://www.reddit.com/r/INTP/comments/23w92n/im_considering_unsubscribing/ch1hanw)

I see these kinds of posts all over the internet in all different kinds of communities, and it seems like there is a certain kind of person who has this inherent tendency to try to fit into a group and then attempt to place themselves above it by criticising it from within. They straw man their own communities in order to raise their own feeling of social status, if you like. They identify themselves as -

'Whenever I am in a group of people, they're all predictable sheep who make the same mistake, whereas I am the lone wolf who calls people out on their bullshit'

The easiest way to do this is to just invent and attribute to other people errors that they never actually made in the first place.

While your post might not be that self centered, it's still something to think about.

I don't think INTPs or any of the other NTs or introverted types are actually like 1-2% of the population or somehow more special or unique than the other types. I don't think INTPs are naturally smarter than the other types...though I admit I was holding out on that one for a while.

All that has been proven by people much more qualified to think about it than you and I. 1-2% is the percent that was measured when people who defined INTP studied a large group of people to establish that percent. If you define smarter as someone who is better at understanding logical concepts, critical thinking and complex material, then NTs are statistically smarter than the rest. It's not egotistical for some MBTI types to claim to be much much more socially skilled than an average INTP because it's true.

Your whole post sends a message that we should apologize for being different. The reason many of us come here with our "grey" thoughts is because we are tired from apologizing for being different. (edit: this is so cheesy and cliche it makes me nauseous, but it's true)

Sorry if I seem a little offensive and argumentative, that's not my intention, but I figured this is a place where I don't have to sugar coat everything.

 

[Gather_Wanderer]

Your whole post sends a message that we should apologize for being different. The reason many of us come here with our "grey" thoughts is because we are tired from apologizing for being different. (edit: this is so cheesy and cliche it makes me nauseous, but it's true)

No, not at all intended. All the major groupings are different in their own way and in their own context.

Also, to your bit about being 'smart'. NTs probably do have more of a natural inclination to pick up a skill like mathematics/logic. But that alone doesn't make that person 'smarter', especially in a world in which the ability to do said things doesn't necessarily provide a competitive advantage in social status, which among human civilizations is clearly important (or made to seem that way). This world is often controlled by people with lots of money and influence. Those things can be had in variety of different ways but I don't think mathematical/logical skill is one of the primary tools in "ways to get to the top". Though you or I may say that something like that is ultimately meaningless (and might truly believe it is), purely in the context of human existence, it is critical. I do think this is one area where E/INTJs tend to separate themselves from us in terms of 'smarts'. They have a built-in drive and tunnel vision required to gain success and influence.

And I should say, in my mind there are two different, albeit sloppy working conceptual definitions for both 'smarts' and 'intelligence'. Both can and do have broader meaning, but for this purpose I restrict them.

Smarts, to me, has a tendency toward applied knowledge and wisdom. A 'smart' guy is one who knows the tendency of behavior within a given system and adjusts his actions in a way that is advantageous to himself. In that sense, there are many types in the world I see that often are smarter than E/INTPs. Action-and-result oriented thinking.

Intelligence or critical thinking, however, is an area that I would tend to rate E/INTPs very highly. On the ability to understand alone, they often do so more thoroughly then the other types. No one, however, is immune from personal bias in critical thinking.

I get that lots of people have done studies about XY and Z regarding MBTI and I don't simply discard the knowledge. I adjust my thoughts based on personal observations and in my personal observations, (and I do roughly keep track of how often I encounter certain types) I don't think NTs are more rare than the other 12 types. Also, based on other typing methods given by former members of this forum (like Adymus and Auburn), I have come to identify most types very quickly in daily life. I think that NTs have their own element and tend to gravitate towards said element. In academia, for example, I have met a very large number of INTPs. I also haven't seen many ISFPs there at all.

And you're not offensive to me. I deserved the flak I got for the OP. I made it because, in my life, I've come to realize that the objective reality many of us seek to find here may not actually be so objective. The world can be either grey or colorful; depends upon who you ask and in both cases it may be true.

 

[TheTryHard]

In the bit about being smart I should have been more specific. I said that definition of smart in particular because that's how most people define it, and in that way NTs are smarter.

The way I personally see it the word smart isn't defined well enough, and intelligence isn't all it's cracked up to be. Intelligence is just the measurement of the ability, like horsepowers for cars. The way you use it, or the driver in the car, is much more important. If I had to choose a definition for smart then it would be that "driver". There are many intelligent stupid people.

I completely agree with you, logical thinking is much less useful than social skills for example, unless you are extremely "smart" and you can use logical thinking to your advantage in social scenarios and other places where you lack ability.

Also I completely failed to predict that in your surroundings INTPs most likely are much much more common than 1-2%. If the group you're analizing is academia, jobs that require logical thinking, the likely friend circle of an INTP(you) or any social activities that could be of interest to INTPs then chances are you see them everywhere all the time.

Another thing that didn't cross my mind is that the 1-2% is likely to be a very bad estimate if it's based on consensual tests, since INTPs seem to be most likely to refuse to participate. If the test were not consensual then they are based off a quick estimate of someone which can also be very misleading. I don't live in the US but in my surroundings if you take all people into consideration and not just the ones I have the chance to observe I'm sure it would however be around 1-2%.

I've come to realize that the objective reality many of us seek to find here may not actually be so objective. The world can be either grey or colorful; depends upon who you ask and in both cases it may be true.

I completely agree with you. The truth is everything, beginning from our own perception of the world, is entirely subjective. And we mostly use logic to justify our emotions. INTPs in particular are probably the best at doing that and the worst at admitting it.

In the end there is no point in arguing objectively what color is the world, the colors themselves are all subjective.

 

[Gather_Wanderer]

The way I personally see it the word smart isn't defined well enough, and intelligence isn't all it's cracked up to be. Intelligence is just the measurement of the ability, like horsepowers for cars. The way you use it, or the driver in the car, is much more important. If I had to choose a definition for smart then it would be that "driver". There are many intelligent stupid people.

Good analogy. I might add though that there can be more than one kind of intelligence. As the Einstein saying goes, can't judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree. A good example of that would be a mechanical engineering friend of mine who graduated recently (ISFP). The guy built an entire house literally by himself, along with other impressive projects done on his spare time in a garage. He's probably not a genius at calculus but he has an obvious natural talent for mechanical tinkering. I haven't the slightest idea of how his brain works and his ideas seem totally ridiculous at times but I've learned not to dismiss him just because he isn't rigorous analytically. If I was ever mulling over an alternative design for a futuristic engine of some sort, he'd be the first guy I'd call to bounce ideas off of.

I completely agree with you. The truth is everything, beginning from our own perception of the world, is entirely subjective. And we mostly use logic to justify our emotions. INTPs in particular are probably the best at doing that and the worst at admitting it.

In the end there is no point in arguing objectively what color is the world, the colors themselves are all subjective.

^So, so true.

I do believe there to be a universal, objective reality of sorts but think that perception of it is subjective. The best way I can explain that, is in paraphrasing Niels Bohr: "Science is not about the study of Nature itself but Nature as exposed to our observation"

Nature seems to behave in ways that we are able to describe and that tells me there must be some grand unifying concept. When we embark on about knowing more about the grand unifier we have to remember where we're standing, and uhh...the view from here.

But remembering where we stand, and our view, does hint at how things might work even outside of that view. If its all unified, then things outside of our view may and likely do affect how things work inside it...and can possibly tell us more about the inside view. And if I want to use a word like 'Universe' and say it encompasses all that is, I can't really separate the inside from outside because they're part of the same existence.

Many might put a caveat on 'since we're able to describe one thing, it must mean we can describe other things' or detach meaning from that altogether.
I would say, as a human being, you certainly cannot do the latter.

 

[not]

We have an impostor, trickster, fraud amongst us. I have been held in captivity knowing that if you offend a certain BREED on this forum you are not challenged with WIT you are attacked from behind. I have to say that the GENIUS is not the one that calls himself or herself one but is HATED by those that cannot be one. Let's NOT CARE about the label, I find it stifling. I got a perfect score on my SAT in high school only to have a security guard change my test answers. 1020 on my SAT got me a billion dollars. 1600 got me persecuted by an angry black man.

 

[The Gopher]

We have an impostor, trickster, fraud amongst us. I have been held in captivity knowing that if you offend a certain BREED on this forum you are not challenged with WIT you are attacked from behind. I have to say that the GENIUS is not the one that calls himself or herself one but is HATED by those that cannot be one. Let's NOT CARE about the label, I find it stifling. I got a perfect score on my SAT in high school only to have a security guard change my test answers. 1020 on my SAT got me a billion dollars. 1600 got me persecuted by an angry black man.

*Put's "Not" back in the other section in Gophers fun play land*