Ni bashing?

[ae1905]

I've been told that I have a predilection for criticizing, or "bashing", Ni. In fact, I simply point out the weaknesses of introverted intuition and the same person who criticizes me has never contradicted my assessment, only chided me for making them. I actually don't refrain from telling Ni-doms and INTJs, in particular, what I think of them. And because I am often smarter than they are, they usually take it quietly like good little lambs. But should I criticize them to their faces? Should I instead be more compassionate and understanding? This is the view an imploring INFJ once expressed after I berated and ridiculed the INTJs on their forum. Was she right? Should I take pity on INTJs? Am I wrong to point out their shortcomings? Their irrationality? Their ineptitude in debate? Their penchant for using Ni to make ad hominem "arguments" in lieu of real ones? Or is this criticism a necessary corrective both to their own high opinions of themselves and to the high opinions held by some others?

 

[QuickTwist]

You're viewing things too much in black and white. Everything is a case by case basis. some individuals need to get slapped upside the head and others need a little TLC. Its up to you to judge which method is appropriate at the time.

 

[Jennywocky]

I've been told that I have a predilection for criticizing, or "bashing", Ni. In fact, I simply point out the weaknesses of introverted intuition and the same person who criticizes me has never contradicted my assessment, only chided me for making them. I actually don't refrain from telling Ni-doms and INTJs, in particular, what I think of them. And because I am often smarter than they are, they usually take it quietly like good little lambs. But should I criticize them to their faces? Should I instead be more compassionate and understanding? This is the view an imploring INFJ once expressed after I berated and ridiculed the INTJs on their forum. Was she right? Should I take pity on INTJs? Am I wrong to point out their shortcomings? Their irrationality? Their ineptitude in debate? Their penchant for using Ni to make ad hominem "arguments" in lieu of real ones? Or is this criticism a necessary corrective both to their own high opinions of themselves and to the high opinions held by some others?

I've read some of those posts on other forums, and you were obnoxious in your interaction style. (In fact, your post here exudes a hint of the same typical disdain.)

If you could discuss type differences without being condescending in your delivery, then perhaps it would be a viable and valuable discussion. You're not nearly all you crack yourself up to be. (None of us are, we're all human, with strengths and weaknesses, regardless of type.)

 

[Fukyo]

I've been told that I have a predilection for criticizing, or "bashing", Ni. In fact, I simply point out the weaknesses of introverted intuition and the same person who criticizes me has never contradicted my assessment, only chided me for making them. I actually don't refrain from telling Ni-doms and INTJs, in particular, what I think of them. And because I am often smarter than they are, they usually take it quietly like good little lambs. But should I criticize them to their faces? Should I instead be more compassionate and understanding? This is the view an imploring INFJ once expressed after I berated and ridiculed the INTJs on their forum. Was she right? Should I take pity on INTJs? Am I wrong to point out their shortcomings? Their irrationality? Their ineptitude in debate? Their penchant for using Ni to make ad hominem "arguments" in lieu of real ones? Or is this criticism a necessary corrective both to their own high opinions of themselves and to the high opinions held by some others?

Having no previous awareness of your interactions with these people the thing that sticks out to me is that you're very sure of yourself (people who are very sure of themselves of course consider their interlocutor incompetent, regardless of what their type may be) and the typological classification of these folks. (I have considerable skepticism of anybody's claims about others types or their own, and actually the whole typological framework)



In general, however I consider bashing people based on type to be a kind of ad hominem itself.

 

[computerhxr]

The winner of any debate should be awarded with a firm kick to the nuts. This would level the playing field.

However, if a debate exists to expand knowledge then everyone wins. This would result with a firm handshake.



Instead we should refer to debates as verbal sparring.

 

[nanook]

My experience is that when people are bashing another type it's almost always an inability to see functions as they are and types for what they are good at.

Unless someone has been butt hurt by how they are misunderstood or mistreated by a particular type.

For instance various extroverts give me a sore asshole and i know what extroverts are good for, but i'm more motivated to point out the flaws in how they relate to me.

Types are equally flawed in how they have a hard time connecting with most other types.

I have never been hurt by Ni, so I can't share the sentiment at all.

INFJ are fond of observing me from a distance, because they crave Ne inspiration and because FeTi does receive stimulation from what might be my FiTe. I observe selected INFJ for the same reason (ie teal swan). I assume INTP and INTJ relate in similar manner.

Te and Fe on the other hand can be a bitches.
This comes down to the E hurting I again.

I find this is often the underlying conflict, not just for me. When people whine about subjectivity vs objectivity, they often think it's N vs S or T vs F but if you look closer, it's an I vs E conflict.

 

[ae1905]

I've read some of those posts on other forums, and you were obnoxious in your interaction style. (In fact, your post here exudes a hint of the same typical disdain.)

I exaggerated the matter a little here but it should be understood that I criticize Ni when the subject of Ni comes up and not by way of trolling. And when I do I do it respectfully, stating my opinions in a matter of fact manner. This is the main reason INTJs don't object, because they can see the validity of my points. There is one thread where you can see an INTJ acknowledging four of the five points I made and only disagreeing with one. The exchange is friendly. The only times my discussions with them turn ugly are the times they run out of real arguments to make and they use their Ni to attack me.

Also, it goes w/o saying it takes two to tangle and in the one thread you refer to with the two Ni-doms I patiently explained why their objections had already been raised by researchers working in the field; but when they ignored this point and not only continued to repeat their objections but accused me of harboring a personal motivation for stating facts(!), I called them for pulling the ad hominem card and attributed their lowly tactics to Ni paranoia. How was this "typism"? One thing Ni does is guess hidden motives, and it was no accident two Ni-doms who had ran out of valid arguments were resorting to this dirty trick.

Note: for the record, the facts I stated were that IQ is correlated to type and to race, both facts. That is all I stated, yet I was personally attacked for pointing them out! Why? Because they didn't like the facts! And they tried to take it out on me!

If you could discuss type differences without being condescending in your delivery, then perhaps it would be a viable and valuable discussion.

Again, look at the threads. In the one discussed above, I only took offense after I repeated my points and they started making ad hominem "arguments" directed at me. In the other thread with the ISTJ, he started the mudslinging and tried to give as good as he got. What happened to him?

You're not nearly all you crack yourself up to be. (None of us are, we're all human, with strengths and weaknesses, regardless of type.)

I never said I was perfect, far from it, but I don't cheat in arguments and only turn "obnoxious" when my interlocutors do, usually by resorting to personal attacks (the INTJs) or by insults and lying (the ISTJ). When people discuss or debate like this, they deserve to be dressed down. What they don't deserve is to be saved by the mods.

 

[nanook]

Unless we are offended by the fact that Ni types tend to think they are old souls that have lived many times who consider us spiritually weak for not remembering, i don't see what is inherently offending about Ni.

If someone lies in arguments it's clearly a result of how they think and feel, not a result of perception.

I find that entp make a lot of straw men arguments, but intp don't.

There is a very indirect connection with perception, it's really about how J dominant types are more careful about both aspects of their judgement, T and F. And P dominant types follow their intended flow, become infatuated with momentum and become imprecise about judgement.

(A more positive example is poetic language; also an example of imprecise judgement in favor of momentum)

 

[QuickTwist]

Unless we are offended by the fact that Ni types tend to think they are old souls that have lived many times who consider us spiritually weak for not remembering, i don't see what is inherently offending about Ni.

If someone lies in arguments it's clearly a result of how they think and feel, not a result of perception.

I find that entp make a lot of straw men arguments, but intp don't.

There is a very indirect connection with perception, it's really about how J dominant types are more careful about both aspects of their judgement, T and F. And P dominant types follow their intended flow, become infatuated with momentum and become imprecise about judgement.

This is a great post.

 

[dark+matters]

I've been told that I have a predilection for criticizing, or "bashing", Ni. In fact, I simply point out the weaknesses of introverted intuition and the same person who criticizes me has never contradicted my assessment, only chided me for making them. I actually don't refrain from telling Ni-doms and INTJs, in particular, what I think of them. And because I am often smarter than they are, they usually take it quietly like good little lambs. But should I criticize them to their faces? Should I instead be more compassionate and understanding? This is the view an imploring INFJ once expressed after I berated and ridiculed the INTJs on their forum. Was she right? Should I take pity on INTJs? Am I wrong to point out their shortcomings? Their irrationality? Their ineptitude in debate? Their penchant for using Ni to make ad hominem "arguments" in lieu of real ones? Or is this criticism a necessary corrective both to their own high opinions of themselves and to the high opinions held by some others?

I think I'm seeing what you're saying. I've also been in many situations in which I've had Ni launched at me in 100% ad hominem fashion. Ti is the INTJ's "critical parent" and Ni is ours. I think this knowledge and all knowledge has to be used in the service of diplomacy and understanding between different people. If a person uses anything, knowledge included, to build him or herself up at the expense of someone else, or if someone's criticism springs from any kind of insecurity or fear, I think people will generally work against that person. It's probably an exception when people don't. Some of those INTJs/INFJs can probably tell that they are being devalued for fundamental parts of their identities and feel that they have to defend themselves. If it bothers them, maybe it's better not to intrude on their views of themselves. Right or wrong, their defensiveness is at least understandable, especially in light of the idea of cognitive functions. I usually let people believe whatever they want to about who they are without forcing my own ideas onto them. (It's much more complicated than this, of course, but that's a long rabbit trail.) I'm never happy when someone forces their ideas about who I am onto me, unless I specifically requested that feedback. Even then, that feedback has to be delivered in an empathetic way, or I'll automatically begin to assume that they have issues leading them to want to "take me down a peg" in order to feel better about themselves.

 

[ae1905]

I think I'm seeing what you're saying. I've also been in many situations in which I've had Ni launched at me in 100% ad hominem fashion. Ti is the INTJ's "critical parent" and Ni is ours. I think this knowledge and all knowledge has to be used in the service of diplomacy and understanding between different people. If a person uses anything, knowledge included, to build him or herself up at the expense of someone else, or if someone's criticism springs from any kind of insecurity or fear, I think people will generally work against that person. It's probably an exception when people don't. Some of those INTJs/INFJs can probably tell that they are being devalued for fundamental parts of their identities and feel that they have to defend themselves. If it bothers them, maybe it's better not to intrude on their views of themselves. Right or wrong, their defensiveness is at least understandable, especially in light of the idea of cognitive functions. I usually let people believe whatever they want to about who they are without forcing my own ideas onto them. (It's much more complicated than this, of course, but that's a long rabbit trail.) I'm never happy when someone forces their ideas about who I am onto me, unless I specifically requested that feedback. Even then, that feedback has to be delivered in an empathetic way, or I'll automatically begin to assume that they have issues leading them to want to "take me down a peg" in order to feel better about themselves.

If a thread asks for opinions on Ni or INXJs, then I offer an opinion. I can't say if it is always "empathic", but it is honest. And blunt. Especially with INTJs since they are NTs, I don't feel a need to sugar-coat anything. If an INXJ takes a debate down a dirt road then I point out they're sidetracking the debate. But even if the purpose is to "take you down a notch", in a debate there are still rules and etiquette. There is no need to resort to ad hominem attacks, unless you have no better arguments to make. And that is usually the case.

Michael Jordan famously had a chip on his shoulder; that's what made him so competitive--the need to challenge himself. If I deliberately challenge INTJs, then what of it? As long as it is a fair competition, then why not?

Note: I don't often do this but I did once challenge the INTJs on a board to prove their Ni prognosticating prowess by making predictions that could be verified. They couldn't do it. Finally, one INTJ pulled out his Ni ad hominem gun and started firing. An exchange of insults ensued. Was it my fault? Was I wrong to challenge them to prove their "mastermind" title? To show us their great Ni powers? No. Not when they themselves claim to possess such powers.

 

[QuickTwist]

so your point is to tell the whole world that you will start shit with Ni doms just cuz. I think I understand now.

 

[Hadoblado]

I'm pretty critical of Ni, but not those that use it.

I find it funny that you criticise everyone of a specific type for using ad hominem arguments. Particularly when you use the alleged difference in intelligence between you and them as the reason you are right, or at least the reason you've got away with it.

INTJ's are not categorically bad at debate. INTJ's are not categorically stupid. INTJ's do not care for your pity. INTJ's are not irrational.

If Jenny hadn't corroborated your story I'd have thought you trolling. Your post is full of fuck.

 

[mrrhq]

Well, INTJs actually are similar in wanting to know more things about the world, but they take a "left-wing" approach about it, compared to the INTP's "right-wing" approach.

We use Ne backed up by Ti, and they use Ni backed up by Te. So if you think about it, the primary and secondary thinking related functions do their work. Inherently, INTJs seem to be better at playing the beginner's game, where they have no knowledge of anything unless it's solid proof, and they can build up their library of facts to use to their advantage (Te). Whereas INTPs on the other hand, we are incredibly strong and definate thinkers, but we like to make up our own theories and share them to see if they are correct (Ne).

I mean, it is great and all, having a Ti function as our primary function. Does it mean we're a little bit smarter? It's quite a suggestive question. If both an INTP and INTJ were found to be equally wise and intelligent, then don't underestimate who you're dealing with. Ni can strike back hard on Ne. Likewise, INTJs don't like hearing mundane details, so INTPs can strike back their Ti on their Te, but it doesn't seem as effective. It's like playing a mirroring game. All we do is, like, reflect back and forth arguments like light bouncing off of two mirrors, where both people advance nowhere. It's hard for both of them to gather and share information because we're looking for two different things, that's why the "right-wing" and "left-wing" way of thinking can be very separable, and we seem to miss out on understanding each other quite a lot, even emotionally.

Then again, everything I might have said might as well just be very obvious to just about every INTP in here.

 

[nanook]

i have an account on intjforum, but i don't use it. i wrote a hand full of my usual monological posts in various threads. my memory is certainly imprecise: somebody asked me to expand on my reasoning, but before i could respond, one intj came along and drew a caricature of me, suggesting i am just a magical unicorn that hallucinates nonsense. something to that effect. it was like an authority with high post count has declared me to be prey, in front of the rest of the wulf-pack. and i told him to fuck off, if he has no real argument. and one infj moderator gave me a warning for attacking him. of course that was the last time i posted there.

so yeah, intj like to belittle other people in dialogue. entp do this too. infj do it sometimes. intp don't. a statistical statement, of course.

still, it's basically a matter of extroversion. E brings conflict to the surface and into the present moment, without shame and with a shadow attached. Je in this case, but Ne in the case of entp.

 

[mrrhq]

ione intj came along and drew a caricature of me, suggesting i am just a magical unicorn that hallucinates nonsense. something to that effect. it
so yeah, intj like to belittle other people in dialogue. entp do this too. infj do it. intp don't.

They will do that. That's a judgment part of Ni and Fi though. And their weak Se pretty much fuels any of their dry humor that they can come up with. It's been proven, even on national television, over and over, that INTPs really are funnier. I can probably come up with several examples.

Ni is the "anything is possible" trigger, and "let's draw some random silly-ass conclusions." Then they use Te to see if it makes sense, or whatever. I don't get it. :P

Dude, I have listened to so many ENTP people on technology podcasts. I dunno why, but podcasting is really an ENTP thing. You can find them everywhere doing that stuff. Jupiter Broadcasting is my favorite one, because they have Linux. And I'm pretty damn sure Chris is an ENTP. But anyway, there are nice ones, and at least their Ne-Ti can at least tell you right away what their judgements are. Yes, their judgements very only slightly from the INTJ, but the INTJ's hide it at the last moment, before attacking with Te. At least ENTPs just tell you their opinionated shit straight up, and I find that it's easier to swallow and let it slide by, anyway.

 

[ae1905]

I find it funny that you criticise everyone of a specific type for using ad hominem arguments. Particularly when you use the alleged difference in intelligence between you and them as the reason you are right, or at least the reason you've got away with it.

Really? Where did I say I've argued with "every" INTJ?

INTJ's are not categorically bad at debate. INTJ's are not categorically stupid. INTJ's do not care for your pity. INTJ's are not irrational.

Again, doesn't it go w/o saying that I'm talking about the INTJs I've known? Especially when I mention ad hominem attacks I've personally been on the receiving end of?

If Jenny hadn't corroborated your story I'd have thought you trolling. Your post is full of fuck.

So is your reading comprehension.

 

[ae1905]

so your point is to tell the whole world that you will start shit with Ni doms just cuz. I think I understand now.

Some of the time. Like I said, it's good sport and competition. It keeps the mind sharp. And INTJs are supposed to be as smart if not smarter than INTPs. Who else am I going to challenge? ESFJs?

But most of the time, it happens by chance as you encounter INTJs in debate threads, for example. They disagree with you, or vice versa, and you're off. Other times, it's threads that solicit opinions on INTJs. These two cases make up the bulk of the incidences.

The point of this thread is, should I back off on criticizing Ni? Should I not put INTJs, in particular, on a "pedestal" and expect them to be more logical and smarter than other types, as they proclaim themselves to be? Should I ignore the ad hominem attacks? What, if anything, should I do with Ni and the INTJs I encounter?

Note: this only happens online. Irl, I have an INTJ friend and have known and worked with other INTJs and have never had a disagreement, not even a debate!

 

[QuickTwist]

Want to know a secret? I'm burnt out on arguing.

That said, It seems like the the thread is really about you venting about a particular case which got to you more than it should have, or at least how you see it. A lot of this goes under the radar for the intellectual types as they are so concerned with facts and figures and... arguments. If I'm way off the mark just say so, and tell us what happened so we can see where you are coming from.... us feelers of course.

 

[nanook]

if you call me unicorn, the subjective image is originated by Ni and the fact that you put it out there as if it was objective truth is Se (estp alex jones style), but the fact that you judge the unicorn as being ridiculous and not noteworthy, instead of following me into rainbow land, is clearly Te, not even Fi.

it's also a projection of the conflict that INTJ have inside.

sometimes it seems that i have an easyer time entertaining my demonstrative Ni (seing myself as an indigo child just for fun!!), than they have, because their Te pulls them so deep into objective systems that pathologize the subjective factor, such as DSM with it's categories of autism. (intp and infp will experience a form of Ni, when Ne relaxes into imagination, but we don't have it steady enough to follow it in life.)


enough of Ti>Fi "Fi is Hitler" projections please.

it's unconscious Fi, meaning it's really the consequence of conscious Te. Fi seeks harmony through contextualized acceptance (everything has it's place), Te seeks to prioritise interaction. If you begin to belittle others, you have lost any meaningful integration with Fi. I have recently explained how i perceive INFP disintegrating into Te and how INTP disintegrating into Fe. INTJ can have a more functional Te, compared to INFP in disintegration, but there are similarities.

Te will prioritize arians over jews and intj over infp, no harsh feelings implied, it's just a fact, intj is alpha, infp is gamma or something.

i agree that entp are the kings of podcasts and similar youtube channels. youtuber athenewins (theory of everything) comes to mind. perhaps youtuber 'shots of awe'. And there are some who try really hard to be kind. we have at least one of them here.

 

[redbaron]

Again, doesn't it go w/o saying that I'm talking about the INTJs I've known? Especially when I mention ad hominem attacks I've personally been on the receiving end of?

Not really, why would you use general language if you're talking about specific instances?

I don't refrain from telling INTJs what I think of them.

I berated and ridiculed the INTJs on their forum

Their ineptitude in debate

Should I take pity on INTJs

First sentence refers to INTJs collectively. If you didn't mean INTJs collectively, why say it that way?

Next one refers to "the INTJs". You don't think this implies that you're talking about INTJs collectively?

"Their" ineptitude following statements like "the INTJs" doesn't do much to highlight your intent to discuss specific occurrences.

Again further use of "INTJs" with no specific context provided.

As a thought experiment, I've taken your original post and replaced the terms "Ni" and "INTJ" with the words, "black people".

I've been told that I have a predilection for criticizing, or "bashing", black people. In fact, I simply point out the weaknesses of black people and the same person who criticizes me has never contradicted my assessment, only chided me for making them. I actually don't refrain from telling black people, in particular, what I think of them. And because I am often smarter than they are, they usually take it quietly like good little lambs. But should I criticize them to their faces? Should I instead be more compassionate and understanding? This is the view an imploring libertarian once expressed after I berated and ridiculed the black people on their forum. Was she right? Should I take pity on black people? Am I wrong to point out their shortcomings? Their irrationality? Their ineptitude in debate? Their penchant for using watermelon to make ad hominem "arguments" in lieu of real ones? Or is this criticism a necessary corrective both to their own high opinions of themselves and to the high opinions held by some others?

So tell me: does it sound like I'm talking about black people generally or referring only to the specific instances where black people have made ad hominem attacks?

 

[ae1905]

Not really, why would you use general language if you're talking about specific instances?
First sentence refers to INTJs collectively. If you didn't mean INTJs collectively, why say it that way?

Next one refers to "the INTJs". You don't think this implies that you're talking about INTJs collectively?

"Their" ineptitude following statements like "the INTJs" doesn't do much to highlight your intent to discuss specific occurrences.

Again further use of "INTJs" with no specific context provided.

As a thought experiment, I've taken your original post and replaced the terms "Ni" and "INTJ" with the words, "black people".

So tell me: does it sound like I'm talking about black people generally or referring only to the specific instances where black people have made ad hominem attacks?

Yes and no. The ad hominem attacks refer to the particular INTJs with whom I've had that experience. As does the comment about their debating prowess, since I specifically said "their irrationality comes out soon enough", implying direct experience. The comment about "berating them" refers to a forum and hence a small group of INTJs I had direct contact with. The comment "telling INTJs what I think of them" clearly refers to INTJs I've met; combined with the aforementioned comments, it is implied that these comments were of a similar nature and were made in similar contexts--ie, discussion, etc. So these comments all refer to small numbers of INTJs I had contact with and not INTJs as a type. This should be apparent from the problems I've complained of and the context in which I've met with them, primarily in forums like this one.

The comments on Ni as being irrational and Te as a rationalizing function do refer to INTJs as a type. Do you wish to challenge the veracity of this claim?

 

[dark+matters]

i have an account on intjforum, but i don't use it. i wrote a hand full of my usual monological posts in various threads. my memory is certainly imprecise: somebody asked me to expand on my reasoning, but before i could respond, one intj came along and drew a caricature of me, suggesting i am just a magical unicorn that hallucinates nonsense. something to that effect. it was like an authority with high post count has declared me to be prey, in front of the rest of the wulf-pack. and i told him to fuck off, if he has no real argument. and one infj moderator gave me a warning for attacking him. of course that was the last time i posted there.

so yeah, intj like to belittle other people in dialogue. entp do this too. infj do it sometimes. intp don't. a statistical statement, of course.

still, it's basically a matter of extroversion. E brings conflict to the surface and into the present moment, without shame and with a shadow attached. Je in this case, but Ne in the case of entp.

Hmmm, I wouldn't stay on that or any other forum either if people were going to deliberately insult me or waste my time. I've been on forums like that before that were tied to totally neutral subjects, like... raising saltwater fish, video games, artwork, how to do (x), etc. It's actually been about 9 years since I got on an internet forum like this one.

I read a recent study that suggests trolls are sadists. That would make sense. And I've seen hard core sadists in real life who struck me as having very different MBTI types. I'm thinking of an ENFJ, an ISTJ, an ISFJ, an ENTP and an ENFP. I don't see why sadism and the understandable desire to dump anger originating from one frustrating place into a safer place, couldn't happen even more freely online. That's not at all to say that criticism or dissent necessarily has these origins. A good point is a good point, regardless of how or why it was said. But when someone who attacks you for strange reasons does come along, it's probably good to keep in mind that there are a lot of unwell people out there and that everyone has been affected by and has perpetuated unwellness.

Recently, I started frequenting an INTJ forum tied directly to social media that was well moderated. With liberal use of the "block" feature, I enjoyed it. There were a lot of humorous posts and interesting topics. I've also explored NF forums with really passive aggressive, hostile, or victim-mindsetted people, and that mostly goes against the NF stereotype, so I think it's more about the individuals involved in the group and the political structure of the forum versus type.

 

[ae1905]

Not really, why would you use general language if you're talking about specific instances?


So tell me: does it sound like I'm talking about black people generally or referring only to the specific instances where black people have made ad hominem attacks?

While I didn't mention it here I did mention it elsewhere that I regard the INTJs I've known irl to be highly intelligent. They include my friend who is a PhD, a colleague who did his MBA in MIT, a prof who did his PhD at MIT and is thought to hold the record for highest GPA at Princeton, and my cousin who is a lawyer. So I have a high regard for the INTJs I've known. The INTJs I've met online? Not so much.

Having said this the smartest people I've known have been NTPs, especially INTPs.

 

[redbaron]

This should be apparent from the problems I've complained of and the context in which I've met with them, namely, in forums like this one.

While I didn't mention it here I did mention it elsewhere that I regard the INTJs I've known irl to be highly intelligent.

Oh I get it, you're a megalomaniac.

Not only assuming that people would actually care enough to keep up to date with your posts on an online forum, but that they actually "should" keep up to date to such a degree that when you start a new thread they'll automatically understand that your completely generalized statements are actually part of a broader context wherein readers "should" understand that your general language is obviously not a general reference but actually related to the generalities of specifics.

So I have a high regard for the INTJs I've known. The INTJs I've met online? Not so much.

Wow, no kidding? You found stupid people on the internet? That's pretty amazing, I'm not sure I believe you.

 

[Hadoblado]

My alleged comprehension problem seems like someone else's communication problem.

RB is a shoe-in for INTJ btw (whether he likes it or not).

Now run along my good little lamb.

 

[nanook]

pointing out that a generalisation is just a generalisation, as if this disqualifies all related and intended arguments, is usually an infantile and aggressive "you are wrong, i found a fault in you and i won't try to see your point, because fuck you" move. it's also one of these things that extroverts do more than introverts, they have systematic disrespect for the subjective factor of the creator and rate his thoughts as if it was intended to be a prototype product for serial production of the same thought. Ti is a process of exploration, not an instruction. INTJ may have difficulty understanding this.

 

[QuickTwist]

Glad to see this thread finally got off topic

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Your aforementioned Ni bashing was such a non issue here OP that in irony you brought up the accusatory topic yourself.

If that wasn't a conscious decision, I'd watch out for your subconscious giving you unhealthy pretexts to continue old arguments from other forums.

Or perhaps you could seek out the original people/forums who accused you of Ni bashing and have a heart to heart, they might have more insight.

 

[ae1905]

Oh I get it, you're a megalomaniac.

Not only assuming that people would actually care enough to keep up to date with your posts on an online forum, but that they actually "should" keep up to date to such a degree that when you start a new thread they'll automatically understand that your completely generalized statements are actually part of a broader context wherein readers "should" understand that your general language is obviously not a general reference but actually related to the generalities of specifics.

The context is clearly given in the OP and in this thread. The fact you evaded any of the particular points I made shows you are conceding the point but trying to do so in such a way as to "save face". This is a very common maneuver, one I see many types use including INTJs.

Wow, no kidding? You found stupid people on the internet? That's pretty amazing, I'm not sure I believe you.

This is another example of a reading comprehension problem. I believe I referred specifically to the INTJs (and some INFJs) I've met, particularly online and not to "people" in general. And is there a reason, a priori, to think this group might be "stupid", as you put it? If not, then would you say the discovery they are not anywhere as intelligent--not "stupid", that's your word--as the ones I know irl is surprising, especially given their reputation and oft self-proclaimed smarts?

Nice try derailing this thread. Anyone can plainly see what you tried to do here. And it ain't working.

 

[ae1905]

My alleged comprehension problem seems like someone else's communication problem.

RB is a shoe-in for INTJ btw (whether he likes it or not).

Now run along my good little lamb.

Again, notice this poster doesn't refer to my counter to his original post but responds only to my very last "reading comprehension" line. These are the kinds of things the INTJs I have encountered online do when they have no real comeback. The post I quote here is another example of the "saving face" maneuver.

And I'd say RB looks more like a heel than a shoe-in.

 

[ae1905]

Your aforementioned Ni bashing was such a non issue here OP that in irony you brought up the accusatory topic yourself.

If that wasn't a conscious decision, I'd watch out for your subconscious giving you unhealthy pretexts to continue old arguments from other forums.

Or perhaps you could seek out the original people/forums who accused you of Ni bashing and have a heart to heart, they might have more insight.

I did. And it was a conscious decision.

But my question remains: should I hold INTJs to a higher standard because of their MBTI reputation? Or should I treat them the same way as any other type? Should I call them out when they resort to underhanded Ni tactics and try to bring my supposed "hidden motivations" into otherwise impersonal discussions? Or should I just ignore them as if they didn't have Ni, at all? What does one do with people whose principal form of cognition is "reading between your lines", often at the expense (to you) of ignoring the words and thoughts you've carefully crafted?

Am I the only INTP (or person) who finds this extremely annoying and troublesome, especially on sites where Ni-doms roam and can respond to you at their whim?

 

[nanook]

What does one do with people whose principal form of cognition is to "read between your lines", often at the expense of ignoring the words and thoughts you've carefully crafted?

sounds like you are talking about me

 

[ae1905]

sounds like you are talking about me

I haven't noticed a problem and wasn't referring to you.

 

[nanook]

Yeah, not in this thread. But i do psychoanalyse people without much hesitation, when i feel that a deep subjective confusion is the source of whatever conflict they project into their experience in reality.

(I won't say i'm not an Ni type, but i'm probably not)

 

[ae1905]

Yeah, not in this thread. But i do psychoanalyse people without much hesitation, when i feel that a deep subjective confusion is the source of whatever conflict they project into their experience in reality.

(I won't say i'm not an Ni type, but i'm probably not)

It depends on where and how you do it. In my experience, Ni is used in this way when the Ni-user no longer has a valid argument to make and attacking me is seen as a last offense. But, obviously, Ni can be used in other contexts.

 

[DrSketchpad]

I've been told that I have a predilection for criticizing, or "bashing", Ni. In fact, I simply point out the weaknesses of introverted intuition and the same person who criticizes me has never contradicted my assessment, only chided me for making them. I actually don't refrain from telling Ni-doms and INTJs, in particular, what I think of them. And because I am often smarter than they are, they usually take it quietly like good little lambs. But should I criticize them to their faces? Should I instead be more compassionate and understanding? This is the view an imploring INFJ once expressed after I berated and ridiculed the INTJs on their forum. Was she right? Should I take pity on INTJs? Am I wrong to point out their shortcomings? Their irrationality? Their ineptitude in debate? Their penchant for using Ni to make ad hominem "arguments" in lieu of real ones? Or is this criticism a necessary corrective both to their own high opinions of themselves and to the high opinions held by some others?

Ha, you have the same issue my little brother has; temper and insecurity (Don't be like that nearly everyone has these issues)

I'll also tell you something that I both of my little bros; If you want to have a meaningful exchange with someone, don't lash out and call them stupid.
""

Telling someone else that they have a lesser ability to contribute intellectually won't help them flourish in any way. This behavior only shines light to the problem that you (yes you) have issues communicating effectively! Again, insecurity and temper will get in the way of that, but please, PLEASE don't let pride get in the way of you gaining something from this. To level your perception towards this comment I'll list some of my flaws that would have gotten in the way of getting this message through to you more completely:

nagging intellectual insecurity, lack of omniscience, predisposition toward being just irritated instead of loving, terrible pain in the diodes in my left side, and the list goes on...

All that being said, you're a major prick.

" And because I am often smarter than they are, they usually take it quietly like good little lambs."

Seriously? What are you, 12?

But, I want to help (seriously) if at all possible. So, and again, this is genuine me trying to help mode, PLEASE don't be prideful and scoff and turn at the fact that I could actually point out something that you could work on as a person.

Thanks for reading!

 

[Cherry Cola]

You can't bash Ni because you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. You everything you refer to and mention revolves around you making basic objections to stereotypes about Ni which no one cares about cause they are stereotypes.

You have a typical "look at me I'm intellectual" avatar and you constantly refer to yourself or past events involving you in which you brung forth the truth but garnered only chagrin. The whole thread seems to exist in order for you to show people how the world has and continues to wrong you. How you are not given due credit for your rigorous logical endeavors, how when you bring reason you are met with scorn etc.

I agree with Redbaron. U suck.

 

[ae1905]

Ha, you have the same issue my little brother has; temper and insecurity (Don't be like that nearly everyone has these issues)

I'll also tell you something that I both of my little bros; If you want to have a meaningful exchange with someone, don't lash out and call them stupid.
""

Telling someone else that they have a lesser ability to contribute intellectually won't help them flourish in any way. This behavior only shines light to the problem that you (yes you) have issues communicating effectively! Again, insecurity and temper will get in the way of that, but please, PLEASE don't let pride get in the way of you gaining something from this. To level your perception towards this comment I'll list some of my flaws that would have gotten in the way of getting this message through to you more completely:

nagging intellectual insecurity, lack of omniscience, predisposition toward being just irritated instead of loving, terrible pain in the diodes in my left side, and the list goes on...

All that being said, you're a major prick.

" And because I am often smarter than they are, they usually take it quietly like good little lambs."

Seriously? What are you, 12?

But, I want to help (seriously) if at all possible. So, and again, this is genuine me trying to help mode, PLEASE don't be prideful and scoff and turn at the fact that I could actually point out something that you could work on as a person.

Thanks for reading!

You can't bash Ni because you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. You everything you refer to and mention revolves around you making basic objections to stereotypes about Ni which no one cares about cause they are stereotypes.

You have a typical "look at me I'm intellectual" avatar and you constantly refer to yourself or past events involving you in which you brung forth the truth but garnered only chagrin. The whole thread seems to exist in order for you to show people how the world has and continues to wrong you. How you are not given due credit for your rigorous logical endeavors, how when you bring reason you are met with scorn etc.

I agree with Redbaron. U suck.

I encourage both of you to read farther down the thread. Then, if you still feel the same way, feel free to post again. Thanks!

 

[Jennywocky]

I exaggerated the matter a little here but it should be understood that I criticize Ni when the subject of Ni comes up and not by way of trolling. And when I do I do it respectfully, stating my opinions in a matter of fact manner. This is the main reason INTJs don't object, because they can see the validity of my points. There is one thread where you can see an INTJ acknowledging four of the five points I made and only disagreeing with one. The exchange is friendly. The only times my discussions with them turn ugly are the times they run out of real arguments to make and they use their Ni to attack me.

Also, it goes w/o saying it takes two to tangle and in the one thread you refer to with the two Ni-doms I patiently explained why their objections had already been raised by researchers working in the field; but when they ignored this point and not only continued to repeat their objections but accused me of harboring a personal motivation for stating facts(!), I called them for pulling the ad hominem card and attributed their lowly tactics to Ni paranoia. How was this "typism"? One thing Ni does is guess hidden motives, and it was no accident two Ni-doms who had ran out of valid arguments were resorting to this dirty trick.

Note: for the record, the facts I stated were that IQ is correlated to type and to race, both facts. That is all I stated, yet I was personally attacked for pointing them out! Why? Because they didn't like the facts! And they tried to take it out on me!

What can I say? I actually went back and read the threads. You had some points you were trying to make, but it was how you said them that got you in trouble. That's the way it works on that forum; and that's the way it works in life, in the job market, in family structures, and wherever you go. Learn to make the distinction, it would be of benefit to you.

Personally, I don't give a shit myself. I'm not Ni; and if you were disagreeing with me, I'd parse what you said regardless of whether I thought you were being a creep or not (because truth is truth regardless and I can learn from it); and if talking to you proved to be bothersome because you had to voice things in an annoying way, I'd still take away the ideas from the table... but I just might stop talking to you in the future because I don't want to deal with the crappy attitude.

But that's based on my personality and a one-on-one interaction. When you're on a public forum that amounts to a free for all among various types of people, rules exist to minimize unproductive conflict and maximize productive conversation. if you can't handle that and insist on investing your ideas with unnecessary personal invective and stereotypical disdain for a particular personality type, you can expect to get slapped down if those behaviors fly against the cultural norms.

You know the rules at that forum. If you don't want to play by them, that's fine and that's your choice; at the same time, don't expect to avoid getting booted. If you don't like the rules, find a forum that lets you behave more like you want, or start your own forum and be in charge of the rules.

Again, look at the threads. In the one discussed above, I only took offense after I repeated my points and they started making ad hominem "arguments" directed at me. In the other thread with the ISTJ, he started the mudslinging and tried to give as good as he got. What happened to him?

What happens with everyone who gets reviewed. Mods end up reading entire threads sometimes, to track the development of issues that come up. I can't say more, since I wasn't involved.

I never said I was perfect, far from it, but I don't cheat in arguments and only turn "obnoxious" when my interlocutors do, usually by resorting to personal attacks (the INTJs) or by insults and lying (the ISTJ). When people discuss or debate like this, they deserve to be dressed down. What they don't deserve is to be saved by the mods.

No one gets saved by the mods. This sounds like you just personally have a disagreement with some decisions that got made, and you're getting it out of your system by venting here. As I said, I actually went back and read the posts in question and can understand why you got bumped, since I'm aware of what the forum rules are there. Stuff happens. *shrug*

 

[nanook]

You can't bash Ni because you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. You everything you refer to and mention revolves around you making basic objections to stereotypes about Ni which no one cares about cause they are stereotypes.

You have a typical "look at me I'm intellectual" avatar and you constantly refer to yourself or past events involving you in which you brung forth the truth but garnered only chagrin. The whole thread seems to exist in order for you to show people how the world has and continues to wrong you. How you are not given due credit for your rigorous logical endeavors, how when you bring reason you are met with scorn etc.

I agree with Redbaron. U suck.

Fascinating. Raises right eyebrow.

If you (INFJ) came into this thread to prove, that Ni can't help but to make unnecessary ad hominem attacks, you have succeeded.

 

[MellifluousSky]

My experience is that when people are bashing another type it's almost always an inability to see functions as they are and types for what they are good at.

Unless someone has been butt hurt by how they are misunderstood or mistreated by a particular type.

For instance various extroverts give me a sore asshole and i know what extroverts are good for, but i'm more motivated to point out the flaws in how they relate to me.

Types are equally flawed in how they have a hard time connecting with most other types.

I have never been hurt by Ni, so I can't share the sentiment at all.

INFJ are fond of observing me from a distance, because they crave Ne inspiration and because FeTi does receive stimulation from what might be my FiTe. I observe selected INFJ for the same reason (ie teal swan). I assume INTP and INTJ relate in similar manner.

Te and Fe on the other hand can be a bitches.
This comes down to the E hurting I again.

I find this is often the underlying conflict, not just for me. When people whine about subjectivity vs objectivity, they often think it's N vs S or T vs F but if you look closer, it's an I vs E conflict.

The biggest thing that attracts me to INTP is Ti...and how it manifests itself in the dominant vs. tertiary positions. Ni and Ti working together has enough depth to get to the center of anything if the impetus is sufficiently relentless...but therein lies the rub for an INFJ. With Ti in tertiary, it is often difficult to maintain a deep interest UNLESS, the INFJ is actively testing what it knows against others (Fe judgements). This serves as additional fuel for deeper study. INFJ's can sometimes even succumb to intellectual envy, and use it as even more volitional force. INFJ aspires to Ti...at least that is what I have read. I find that it is true...BBC's Sherlock Holmes (Cumberbatch) is outrageous in how he arrives as his deductions. Things just "pop" into his head...and yes, I see him as an INTP:

"Listen. This is my hard drive and it only makes sense to put things in there that are useful. Really useful. Ordinary people fill their heads with all kinds of rubbish. And that makes it hard to get at the stuff that matters. Do you see?"

I can identify with that statement because I don't seek knowledge for the sake of knowledge...it has to be personally important, relevant and useful...otherwise it just takes time away from learning things that I'm actually interested in.

 

[TheManBeyond]

Fascinating. Raises right eyebrow.

Are you impersonating me or are you saying cc is a thinking type?
Both?

 

[nanook]

i'm impersonating you, of course. always.

or maybe just mr spock

 

[Jennywocky]

The world would be a better place if we could all be TheManBeyond.

 

[ae1905]

What can I say? I actually went back and read the threads. You had some points you were trying to make, but it was how you said them that got you in trouble. That's the way it works on that forum; and that's the way it works in life, in the job market, in family structures, and wherever you go. Learn to make the distinction, it would be of benefit to you.

Personally, I don't give a shit myself. I'm not Ni; and if you were disagreeing with me, I'd parse what you said regardless of whether I thought you were being a creep or not (because truth is truth regardless and I can learn from it); and if talking to you proved to be bothersome because you had to voice things in an annoying way, I'd still take away the ideas from the table... but I just might stop talking to you in the future because I don't want to deal with the crappy attitude.

But that's based on my personality and a one-on-one interaction. When you're on a public forum that amounts to a free for all among various types of people, rules exist to minimize unproductive conflict and maximize productive conversation. if you can't handle that and insist on investing your ideas with unnecessary personal invective and stereotypical disdain for a particular personality type, you can expect to get slapped down if those behaviors fly against the cultural norms.

You know the rules at that forum. If you don't want to play by them, that's fine and that's your choice; at the same time, don't expect to avoid getting booted. If you don't like the rules, find a forum that lets you behave more like you want, or start your own forum and be in charge of the rules.



What happens with everyone who gets reviewed. Mods end up reading entire threads sometimes, to track the development of issues that come up. I can't say more, since I wasn't involved.



No one gets saved by the mods. This sounds like you just personally have a disagreement with some decisions that got made, and you're getting it out of your system by venting here. As I said, I actually went back and read the posts in question and can understand why you got bumped, since I'm aware of what the forum rules are there. Stuff happens. *shrug*

In both the second and third cases, the other parties gave as good as they got (or tried)--their writings are filled with what can only be called typist opinions--yet they didn't receive penalties, did they? It's a principle. If you are going to apply rules, then apply them fairly. It usually takes two to argue and when there are insults, it is usually the case that more than one side is hurling them. In fact, it's this mutual exchange of invectives that produces the escalation of words to the point where they come to the notice of the mods. Unfortunately, judging by the decision, this fact was not recognized in this instance.

 

[redbaron]

The fact you evaded any of the particular points I made shows you are conceding the point but trying to do so in such a way as to "save face".

No. I never intended to discuss your argument because it's all based on some argument you had on some online forum that I don't give a shit about. I just responded because you're blaming your communication problems on other people.

Also funnily enough now that you've made the argument about specifics it's actually lost any meaning. Any people of any type can resort to ad hominem attacks for any number of reasons. So in any specific case the more important thing is to understand the person as opppsed to attributing it to their functions.

Also when people get on their high horse and self-proclaim their superior intelligence, actual intelligent people avoid entering into an argument with them in the first place. Probably because such people are invariably obnoxious*

*unless you're nanook who just wants to psychoanalyze you and doesn't afraid of anything because even if what you say is an incomprehensible mess it still furthers his ability to psychoanalyze your ass.

RB is a shoe-in for INTJ btw (whether he likes it or not).

I'm ISTP you nerd.

 

[ae1905]

Also funnily enough now that you've made the argument about specifics it's actually lost any meaning. Any people of any type can resort to ad hominem attacks for any number of reasons. So in any specific case the more important thing is to understand the person as opppsed to attributing it to their functions.

Yes, an individual will be less predictable than groups, but he will likely still display many traits of his type. And this probability increases with the number of individuals. So a dozen INTJs will very likely exhibit Ni traits, particularly under circumstances that bring them out, like stress. Someone elsewhere made the latter point that when pushed into a corner we tend to default to our strongest function, so INXJs would, by this argument, fall back on Ni when they have no arguments left to wield. And that may be why the ad hominem guns come out blazing.

Also when people get on their high horse and self-proclaim their superior intelligence, actual intelligent people avoid entering into an argument with them in the first place. Probably because such people are invariably obnoxious

Maybe. But it also makes it more interesting a game.

 

[Black Rose]

Well I'm sorry you have had such bad experiences with supposed types. I was angry when i was 23 so it had a weird way of coming out. I was not so much into targeting the person but i just thought that everyone was stupid and that i felt really hurt from not being where i wanted to be in life. I don't visit those forum anymore where what i say is taken to be non-helpful. The rationality of what i say is not seen that way. Mostly i say things that are random in their minds. And being here is more fun. The criticism is less harsh and less people think you are stupid. Although i cannot follow augments sometimes. Ti is too much for me. I am sure it is not the case that most Ni types are as bad as those forum portray. They collect what might seem to be the negative portion. My use of Ni is with Fi. Being right is really not important to me but communication so i may always be seen as considerate. Most types don't mature so they are stuck. This is not so bad because we all have our journey. Have fun with yours. Tomorrow is another day.

 

[redbaron]

Someone elsewhere made the latter point that when pushed into a corner we tend to default to our strongest function, so INXJs would, by this argument, fall back on Ni when they have no arguments left to wield. And that may be why the ad hominem guns come out blazing.

'Someone elsewhere' made this argument that all types fall back on their dominant function under stress, which just happens to neatly support your notion to prove that INTJs are susceptible to ad hominem.

This all really hinges on the debatable notion that people fall back on their dominant when under stress and not the shadow functions or even inferior. To me this whole things sounds a lot more like Critical Parent than anything else - from all parties involved.

The Critical Parent Role
(sometimes referred to as the 6th function)

The critical parent role is how we find weak spots and can immobilize and demoralize others. We can also feel this way when others use the process that plays this role.

It is often used sporadically and emerges more often under stressful conditions when something important is at risk. When we engage it, we can go on and on.