New Girl

[Jennywocky]

@Jennywocky: Its not just Christians that are being part of the problem, I think its every religion sect there is. People expect for the world to be a perfect place. It practically ingrained in us that if we don't like something, they do everything you can till it's changed. I think Americans and even other people around world need to realize that not everyone is going to be happy with the way the country is going. I think Americans need to just put up with some stuff instead of trying so desperately to change the way the country is ran for there own wants and desires. There are things about America that I don't agree with, but you don't see me marching up to the white house demanding they change everything that I want.

You're not necessarily representative of the conservatives currently in leadership either politically or socially.

You also were not born into a minority class either racially or religiously, even if the percentage of conservative Christians have been dwindling in terms of domination within the culture.

You might have a different perspective if you had grown up during the civil rights movement 60-70 years ago. When you're actually a minority and have no control over anything, no control over traditional media outlets and years before the Internet appeared, "marches" were one way to have people realize you existed and to exert some influence.

As far as the current state, I think realistically people should all be able to discuss their thoughts and religions and whatever else as part of public discourse. But I've seen the conservative Christians be far more offended than other religions in general if someone has another POV. The belief system is pretty rigid and doesn't allow for variance in thought.

There's also a lot of ignorance involved in beliefs. FOr example, all those people who claim using the term "Xmas" is "taking Christ out of Christmas?"In Greek, X = Chi = first letter of "Christ" and it had been accepted and used for some centuries, until people in the US started freaking out about and taking it as yet another sign the pagans and infidels were infiltrating the country.

To me, it seems more like xenophobia making everything into a threat, versus the threat being real; and that kind of behavior contributes to an adversarial environment that can generate the very threats that people were originally anxious about.

 

[Cherry Cola]

@Jennywocky: Its not just Christians that are being part of the problem, I think its every religion sect there is. People expect for the world to be a perfect place. It practically ingrained in us that if we don't like something, they do everything you can till it's changed. I think Americans and even other people around world need to realize that not everyone is going to be happy with the way the country is going. I think Americans need to just put up with some stuff instead of trying so desperately to change the way the country is ran for there own wants and desires. There are things about America that I don't agree with, but you don't see me marching up to the white house demanding they change everything that I want.

Indeed, this applies to an endless amount of other things as well. It's not perfect or not doing as good one thinks it should? Let's try to fix it even if doing so ends up breaking it even more. If that fails find a scapegoat, because nothing can ever go downhill for no reason. It's a form of anthropomorphism imo. Somewhere out there a phantom lurks, working behind the scenes to bring about demise.

 

[Flawed_Ravvn]

@Perfectly Normal Beast- It is a little scary for everything that I know to be challenged, but I am glad that I'm getting other peoples opinion on this. I will admit that I've never heard anyone else's opinion on this outside my own family much less outside the country. It almost makes me think if what people have told is a complete lie or if they are like me and only know what their parents have told them. My position on this issue could indeed change, but I don't know how yet. And I probably won't be letting my parents know about my position either.

 

[Kuu]

Welcome Wrestler Girl, may you find many mind expanding discussions. This forum is home to a very diverse population, a significant part of which is not from the US, which gives one a good chance to learn of different viewpoints one would in the past only be able to access through extensive travels.

The huge mess over religion in the US is a massive distraction to divert attention from what really matters: politics and economics. People remain irrationally divided and spend so much energy over what is largely a trivial issue in most countries, they would find it extremely hard to find time and capacity to rationally conciliate views in regards to real-world problems...

Regarding patriotism / "military brats": there's many here that can provide alternative viewpoints and a wide array of sources, if you are so inclined to inquire. You will inevitably face them if you wander into the history and politics areas...

 

[Cherry Cola]

Let's not forget that for all its on and on going about the constitution the US was happy to go to war against Vietnam to fight russia by proxy despite the fact that what the Vietnamese people had done was break loose from the control of France (England and USA comes to mind), thereafter writing a constitution of their own which was practically the same as the American one.

And let's not forget that the US was happy to call the Taliban freedom fighters when they were fighting Russia via Afghanistan.

(http://i.imgur.com/qdCuOIk.jpg)

 

[Perfectly Normal Beast]

@Perfectly Normal Beast- It is a little scary for everything that I know to be challenged, but I am glad that I'm getting other peoples opinion on this. I will admit that I've never heard anyone else's opinion on this outside my own family much less outside the country. It almost makes me think if what people have told is a complete lie or if they are like me and only know what their parents have told them. My position on this issue could indeed change, but I don't know how yet. And I probably won't be letting my parents know about my position either.

i guess the life of a military brat can be quite insulated against outside influence. it's certainly possible that most of the people you interact with believe they have no reason to question what their families or those in authority have told them.

just considering the possibility that you may have been duped by the powerful propaganda machine behind american militarism is probably a huge step for you and i think it's probably sensible for you not to mention it to your parents - at least not until you are more certain about your own opinion. that is something that might take a long time and a lot of work.

here are a few very relevant quotes from an american i really admire and whose works you might find interesting :

If patriotism were defined, not as blind obedience to government, nor as submissive worship to flags and anthems, but rather as love of one's country, one's fellow citizens (all over the world), as loyalty to the principles of justice and democracy, then patriotism would require us to disobey our government, when it violated those principles.
​

HOWARD ZINN, Declarations of Independence: Cross-Examining American Ideology

Human beings are not machines, and however powerful the pressure to conform, they sometimes are so moved by what they see as injustice that they dare to declare their independence. In that historical possibility lies hope.
​

HOWARD ZINN, You Can't Be Neutral on a Moving Train
​

​

We need to decide that we will not go to war, whatever reason is conjured up by the politicians or the media, because war in our time is always indiscriminate, a war against innocents, a war against children. War is terrorism, magnified a hundred times.
​

HOWARD ZINN, The Progressive, Nov. 2001
​

​

​

​

 

[Flawed_Ravvn]

@Kuu- I have indeed come to realize that lol! Its probably good for me though.

@Perfectly Normal Beast- Howard Zinn is also one of my favorite Americans as well, I've read a couple of his books too. He does indeed have some very interesting opinions and thoughts when it comes to politics and America.

All three of those quotes really interest me, especially the 2nd and 3rd one.

In the second quote, it makes me wonder why Zinn believes this?

The third quote I completely agree with. It makes me wonder if there was no such thing as war, how would the world be different? Would people treat each other differently?

 

[Deleted member 1424]

Geez, this thread like a time capsule for me...

@wg97
I encourage you to look, analyze, and question. Joining a military branch is a huge commitment and before you support it, you should attempt to understand it and it's relation to the world, relying only your own ability to reason. Use as many sources and perspectives as you can and find out for yourself what it all means. There are a lot of people pushing a lot of different agendas.

You and I have very similar backgrounds, I even dreamed about joining the Air Force once upon a time. You can be assured it's not an insult when I say that you are indoctrinated; so was/am I. It's inevitable given your environment. It is a difficult veil to pierce and it will alienate you from the vast majority of the American population and probably your family, depending.

If you do end up pursuing a career in the military, do not trust your recruiter to get what whatever sweet deal he promised you; they're about as trustworthy as used car salesmen. They have quotas to fill. Also take great care to protect yourself. Rape is an endemic problem in the American military. Much of this you may already know, of course.

 

[Perfectly Normal Beast]

In the second quote, it makes me wonder why Zinn believes this?

well, i think history is often shaped be those courageous enough to stand up against the status quo and fight against injustice even if everybody else around them is going along with it. it takes courage because to contradict the beliefs and actions of a society or group can result in your becoming ridiculed, rejected or even killed. think about the first person who said slavery was wrong, or the germans who risked their own lives to save some of their jewish neighbours from the nazis. these actions certainly give me hope for humanity when i can find little of it elsewhere.

The third quote I completely agree with. It makes me wonder if there was no such thing as war, how would the world be different? Would people treat each other differently?

i'm afraid this question is too difficult for me, i wish i knew.

 

[hurricanejane]

Hey, its nice to see someone of my same age on here! We seem similar in athleticness, among other things. I hope you have a good time on this forum, seems thats your already liked around here. I mostly just lurk, but ill look out for you!

 

[Flawed_Ravvn]

@Adaire- Its certainly an eye opener to hear peoples opinion on this stuff. I probably won't be joining the military because of the fact that I don't know as much about it as I thought I did. It makes me wonder if anyone in my family knows about this stuff? I certainly do more research about the military but I probably won't be joining them.

Rape indeed is a huge epidemic, especially over seas like in Afghanistan and stuff, I hear it all the time from my apparently all knowing father. Thats why there are not very many careers in the military that women can join. Thats also what scares me too, I'm 5 ft 2 in tall and only weight 108 lbs at my heaviest, even though I do wrestling and kickboxing, I'm still not very confident I can fight off a 140 to 200 lb man. If anything I probably wouldn't even be able to hurt them.

P.S I'm not anorexic, its just my genes, although I don't know which side of the family I got them from.

@HurricaneJane- Its nice to finally meet someone my own age too I do really like it around here, its amazing what people can come up with.

 

[Variform]

All that your saying is making me think a little. All that I know about patriotism is what my dad and my other members of my family told me. I do support our troops though, that will never change, they are our line of defense and many of my family members are in that line of defense.

Defense against who?

And I would have to disagree with you on freedom costs nothing, true I was born free because of my dads service to the military,

How is that. What did he do?

but back during the Revolutionary War when we were fighting Great Britain for our freedom, then yes freedom costs lives. If that Revolutionary War didn't happen, we could quite possibly still be under Great Britain's rule instead of being allies with them like we are now.

Fair enough. I agree that citizens need to make moral choices, based on proper values, which is not patriotism or your blindly supporting your troops no matter how many women they raped or prisoners they stacked up.

Citizens need to be aware of their government, that power is not abused. You actually have an amendment for it, so that you can legally own guns. Unfortunately, these guns are used on each other, not the government.

I my country we are so rich, that we fell asleep. We tell each other that there is no justifiable violence. That the government can be trusted. Besides, protesting or dissenting costs a free day. Bills are to be paid.

We want so much wealth and social security, that we almost completely lost the citizens right to dissent, to defend itself and fight for our rights.

I am very much in favor of an awake citizenry, that demonstrates, fights the police, uses public disobedience, to defend itself.

When attacked, you defend yourself. But america isn't defending. It is attacking. It is attacking with its shield. Yo pappa and mommy should be your nation's shield, not attack sovereign nations.

I do agree that America is falling, we are in debt and we are practically split when it comes to politics. When the Obama and Romney Election was going on, at the end they were really neck and neck. After Obama was elected there were people saying that another Civil War could break out because of this election. I also believed it too.

Yes you americans are very susceptible to fear-based propaganda. It is a national handicap and a deep flaw in your peoples' psyche.

"Our government has kept us in a perpetual state of fear - kept us in a continuous stampede of patriotic fervor - with the cry of grave national emergency. Always there has been some terrible evil at home or some monstrous foreign power that was going to gobble us up if we did not blindly rally behind it ..."
-- US General Douglas MacArthur

That is what your parents are prone to. That is their shame and failure. That is the value they instilled in you, support the troops means support mom and dad and your family. How convenient.

Fear of Obama, fear of the USSR, socialism, communism, terrorists. If you people would be nice to other nations, they would not be so angry and hateful. Your parent and maybe you as well, will be america's shield against what your government is doing in your name.

But think girl.


"Far from being the terrorists of the world, the Islamic peoples have been its victims, principally the victims of U.S. fundamentalism, whose power, in all its forms-military, strategic, and economic-is the greatest source of terrorism on Earth.... People are neither still nor stupid. They see their independence compromised, their resources and land and the lives of their children taken away, and their accusing fingers increasingly point north: to the great enclaves of plunder and privilege. Inevitably, terror breeds terror and more fanaticism. But how patient the oppressed have been. Their distant voices of rage are now heard; the daily horrors in faraway brutalized places have at last come home."
-- John Pilger

That means if someday, a bomb goes off killing you or your parents I will not find tears in my heart. Let's not make any mistake here:

"Americans cannot escape a certain responsibility for what is done in our name around the world. In a democracy, even one as corrupted as ours, ultimate authority rests with the people. We empower the government with our votes, finance it with our taxes, bolster it with our silent acquiescence. If we are passive in the face of America's official actions overseas, we in effect endorse them."
-- Mark Hertsgaard, author

This is why I ask you to make moral choices, based on values that are above and beyond the call of duty your parents and you seem to feel. Do NOT enlist.

Obama wanted to get rid of guns when its a constitutional right to have guns, there was much disagreement and fighting going on about that.

Well yeah. That pesky amendment right? It seems a hollow moot point, since you people NEVER use your gun rights to overthrow the government because frankly, you are too infected with propaganda and shopping mall lifestyle to know what is going on in the world as a consequence of your nations' foreign policy.

Obamacare is another one, Obama is practically shoving something down Americans throats that we do not want.

Is that what your parents told you, or Fox? Hahah, come off it. There are people that like the idea too. You should go to Sweden and see what social safety nets mean.

You all wanna be patriots but when it comes down to it, your government fucks you over by expecting you to be responsible for everything that happens to you in your life, like disease. And it is a way of life, I see that. But no one asked for a bad disease.

I knew a fireman in Kentucky. His sister had pneumonia. It was rally bad but she had a low paying job and her employer paid for no health plan and so one day she just went into the street, lay down so people called 911. There is a law that states that 911 must help people, so they ruished her to the hospital, where she got a pot of pills and was sent home. At least she got the pills, That was the plan.

Why would a patriot, someone who tattoos the american flag on their genitals, be ready to die for the nation, that will not install proper laws for medical care, will not help people unless they pay for it with their credit cards and send them home based on the ideology that 'everyone needs to keep their own pants up'?

That's sparked up much fighting and arguments. It will be interesting what America will do once we realize that we are falling as a nation. In all honesty I think Russia will take us over, either that or China.

You are still afraid of Russia? Man! is this propaganda injected in your genes at birth, like a gene therapy?

True, are trading partners with them and we do own them some money,

Some? Some money?

"On December 12, 2013, debt held by the public was approximately $12.312 trillion or about 73% of Q3 2013 GDP[5][6] Intragovernmental holdings stood at $4.9 trillion (29%), giving a combined total public debt of $17.226 trillion or over 100% GDP.[7] As of January 2013, $5 trillion or approximately 47% of the debt held by the public was owned by foreign investors, the largest of which were the People's Republic of China and Japan at just over $1.1 trillion each."
Source: wikipedia

Soon you will be speaking Chines, but please, be afraid of the Russians!

@Variform- I'm saying this right now, America is screwed up! And I mean big time. This is allowed because America is so concentrated on fulfilling other peoples religions and way of life.

Lie, propaganda. Oh my fucking god. I hoped you were still relatively free in your mind. But I was wrong. I am giving up on you. I am sorry. I think it is already too late.

This also goes back to the first Amendment, freedom of speech and religion. This is what makes me mad about this country. In my school we are not allowed to say Merry Christmas, Happy Easter, or anything that involves religion in an effort to not offend the Muslims at my school, which only accommodate about 2% of the schools population.

And you pledge allegiance on a daily basis using the word god in it. Christian fundamentalism.

Most of the people, including me, are Christians, and yet we are not allowed to celebrate are holidays all because some atheist are Muslim will get offended. Teachers are not even allowed to mentions God in their discussions.

That is a good thing. God worship has no place in school. Religion needs to be separate from state and law and you practise it at home and in a church. If religion wants access to indoctrinate innocent children with god nonsense, then education should have access to churches and 'preach' science from the council.

And yet, the hysteria that would arise out of that suggestion would be astounding. How dare a teacher come with his filthy lies of science enter into our church! Blasphemy.

No. God should be banned from school. You want religion, practice it at home in that damned church of yours. Don't be hypocrite.

For a country founded on religion,

How is that?

we are certainly failing away from it. This is why I think we should close the borders, we need to stop letting other people in because its getting out of control. We have to print directions in 20 different languages because English isn't the Americas set language. We don't have a set language and there's much debate about that too. The topic on Gays and Lesbians is a very debatable topic here too. And its allowed at my school too, I see gay and lesbian couples make out in the hallways all the time, and to be completely honest with you its disgusting. Any type of making out in the hallway, whether it be my a normal couple or a gay or lesbian couple is disgusting.

Don't be stuck up. You don't like homosexuality, just say so, but don't sneak it in with the idea that hetero's kissing in hallways is equally disgusting. Because you do the exact same thing as when you talk about minorities that you have to cater to out of a sense of respect, when you cannot say Merry x-mas'. So don't be a hypocrite.

You are a christian, I am sorry for you, but god doesn't make mistakes. He is perfect. His plan is supreme and all people are made by him. How dare you defy god as a 17 year old brat?!? He made gays too, just to piss you off, personally! You should get on your knees and pray for more gay.

Yes, let that be your new slogan! Pray for Gay!

 

[Variform]

and remember - rejecting patriotism and all it entails does not mean that you can no longer have profound respect for the courage and bravery of individual military personnel.

good luck.

Depends on who you ask.

"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance, how violently I hate all this, how despicable an ignorable war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."
-- Albert Einstein

Why would I hold back when a 17 year old girl is considering giving up her brain stem by joining the military, by making a footfall out of a twisted sense of respect that service men always automatically, knee-jerkedly deserve respect?
What is it about military service that makes people say 'I dislike what the military does, I am against war, I do not like the results of war but Segeant Jones, I will respect you personally for making your higher cognitive brain functions available to a remote operator.'

Whatever you do as a military man, it is all okay because as a person I respect you, but as part of the military, I disagree with war.

One of america's trauma's is the Vietnam war. So you sent 19 year olds hormonic pubics into, literally, the jungle, where they go berserk on the local females and commit atrocities like the Mai Ling masacrte, but when they get home and get disrespected, THAT is a bad thing! No soldier is ever guilty but it was the military as a whole!

I don't get it and I doubt I ever will. Are people not accountable when they join the army? How would I respect her parents when they willingly help a military machine that has systematically attacked the world?

Am I to respect a 17, or when she joins, an 18 year old girl for making the decision to be part of an organization that has a single goal, to kill other people?

I can't respect that.

 

[Variform]

well, i think history is often shaped be those courageous enough to stand up against the status quo and fight against injustice even if everybody else around them is going along with it. it takes courage because to contradict the beliefs and actions of a society or group can result in your becoming ridiculed, rejected or even killed. think about the first person who said slavery was wrong, or the germans who risked their own lives to save some of their jewish neighbours from the nazis. these actions certainly give me hope for humanity when i can find little of it elsewhere.



i'm afraid this question is too difficult for me, i wish i knew.

Look at Ukraine. The leaders of nations play their geo-political war games, the Grand Chessboard. People in the street will be victims.

The ultimatum has ended. The pro-Russian protestors will be killed. Everyone cries about the injustice of that, yet they put themselves in the very position to martyr themselves like the morons that they are.

Why would a human being do that? Because they feel Russian? What does that mean? The whole social values, norms and doctrine system and cultural programming running in their head that comes out of Russia?

If you like Russia so much, why didn't you move there? The border was open. But no, they had a good life in the Ukraine, they worked, had families, studied and now they want to be Russian?

So, why do these idiots occupy municipal buildings?

If people make a choice not be lead by the nose and pick up weapons, there would be no escalation. I am not a pacifist. I recognize the need for violence in defense. But to occupy the same municipal building where people work that help maintain the streets in your city, that give you an allowance when you are out of work, that finance your education is idiocy.

It all comes down to the individual, doesn't it? Think it over. There IS no military if people refuse to enlist. And if we ALL do that, no nation can attack another, or station tanks on a borderline. Government is power because people make stupid choices.

The people have the power, but the power is not in taking up arms, it is by using your brain and denying access to your spinal cord as to not become a puppet.

And it is so easy. Just. do...not...join...the...fuc...king...military!

That is what it is about.

 

[Perfectly Normal Beast]

Depends on who you ask.

"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance, how violently I hate all this, how despicable an ignorable war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."
-- Albert Einstein

to be perfectly honest i agree with this quote. problem is, not everyone has the clarity of thought and bullshit detection capacity of einstein.

i'm quite certain that many people who've fought in totally unjust wars throughout history truly believed they were doing something honourable and just - perhaps we should blame them for not having seen through the lies and propaganda that led them there, i don't know.

with that in mind, if i imagine a hypothetical just war and ask myself whether i would enlist, the answer is that no, i would be terrified to do so - it is from that perspective that i think some of even the american military deserve some respect for their sacrifice and bravery - even though they may be misguided puppets.

not many people are so resilient that they could handle such a multitude of world shattering paradigm shifts in only a day or two. wrestler girl is young and has spent her whole life being lulled by these lies. since i don't know her family i chose to assume the best and have tried to give her a way to think about the rest of the issues without stating in no uncertain terms that her parents are murderers who deserve her contempt because i feared that that would risk alienating her from the forum and the topic altogether.

stay with us wrestler girl and sorry for discussing you in the 3rd person.

 

[Latte]

Look at Ukraine. The leaders of nations play their geo-political war games, the Grand Chessboard. People in the street will be victims.

The ultimatum has ended. The pro-Russian protestors will be killed. Everyone cries about the injustice of that, yet they put themselves in the very position to martyr themselves like the morons that they are.

Why would a human being do that? Because they feel Russian? What does that mean? The whole social values, norms and doctrine system and cultural programming running in their head that comes out of Russia?

If you like Russia so much, why didn't you move there? The border was open. But no, they had a good life in the Ukraine, they worked, had families, studied and now they want to be Russian?

So, why do these idiots occupy municipal buildings?

If people make a choice not be lead by the nose and pick up weapons, there would be no escalation. I am not a pacifist. I recognize the need for violence in defense. But to occupy the same municipal building where people work that help maintain the streets in your city, that give you an allowance when you are out of work, that finance your education is idiocy.

It all comes down to the individual, doesn't it? Think it over. There IS no military if people refuse to enlist. And if we ALL do that, no nation can attack another, or station tanks on a borderline. Government is power because people make stupid choices.

The people have the power, but the power is not in taking up arms, it is by using your brain and denying access to your spinal cord as to not become a puppet.

And it is so easy. Just. do...not...join...the...fuc...king...military!

That is what it is about.

@Ukraine
Well, the primary economic base of southeastern Ukraine is going to be destroyed by the trade policies the current coup government wants to implement. Pensions are going to be cut in half as well. Public infrastructure and land is going to be sold via the usual IMF recipe. The coup government blocks Russian language TV stations and implements anti-russian cultural measures.

So no, they can't go back to their work, studies etc. There will not be as much left of that, and what will be left will pay much less.

Simply fleeing to Russia means economically and socially starting from scratch.

They are fighting for retaining the opportunity to support themselves and their families economically first and foremost, and secondly, for not being treated in Ukraine similarly to how the Kurds have been treated in Turkey, culturally. Some might even be fighting for that relatively sad thing called Ukrainian democracy.

They see struggle as the lesser evil, and they are hoping that if things really turn extremely sour, the coup government will compromise or Russia will militarily intervene.

@Pacifism
Saying it comes down to the individual and then describing it only really works if everyone does it is very contradictory.
Principle-pacifism is bullshit unless one wants to just feel like a righteous victim. Sometimes non-violent means are the lesser of evils for influencing things the way one wants, sometimes violence is. The simple thought experiment of 1 belligerent person among 1 million principle-pacifists illustrates how ridiculous it is. The violent person could just walk around and kill or abuse all the people who try to talk it out of it to no avail.

If someone wants to kill my close ones, I'll try to prevent them from doing it (including maybe using the long term solution of killing them) unless I sufficiently also prefer that my close ones were to be killed, or I see the act of trying to interfere as futile or not worth it. I encourage everyone else to have the same mindset, and suspect almost everyone else already does have a similar mindset.

The problems lie in choosing when to fight and when not to fight. To understand when fighting actually helps the concrete outcome one wants and can be seen as being "worth it". Most humans are notoriously bad at this and try to fight even against their own interests if the propaganda is good enough, but in the right culture when it comes to promoting thorough and good processes of exploring what important choices mean, they could be much less bad at discerning and measuring the consequences of their actions than they are in this era.

 

[Absurdity]

Don't be stuck up. You don't like homosexuality, just say so, but don't sneak it in with the idea that hetero's kissing in hallways is equally disgusting. Because you do the exact same thing as when you talk about minorities that you have to cater to out of a sense of respect, when you cannot say Merry x-mas'. So don't be a hypocrite.

You are a christian, I am sorry for you, but god doesn't make mistakes. He is perfect. His plan is supreme and all people are made by him. How dare you defy god as a 17 year old brat?!? He made gays too, just to piss you off, personally! You should get on your knees and pray for more gay.

Yes, let that be your new slogan! Pray for Gay!

Nice straw man you got there. Not sure why you have to be so vehement with someone who is still legally a child.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Nice straw man you got there. Not sure why you have to be so vehement with someone who is still legally a child.

Point. Still though, what he quoted is symptomatic of the problem at heart. People making out in the hallways, respect shown towards non-Christians, and immigration somehow constituting major threats against America or at least symptoms of its demise.
They only way in which they are symptoms of its demise are in the way they are seen as symptoms of its demise. Whatever your opinion on kissing it is a trivial matter, the steps taken to accommodate Muslims and atheists among others are signs of progress not demise, you have to consider the fact that USA is by and large still a christian country. Are you an alcoholic? Well then you better pray and believe in your heart that Jesus will save you as you follow the 12-step program or you're not even trying and you should be fired. Really what is at risk here? Christians didn't dominate the public sphere back in the forlorn days which they love to preach about as if though were it some mythos complete with a profound underlying meaning dictating the god-granted order of the world. The fact that the right wing Christians grip is getting looser brings you closer to your roots not further away from them.

And the immigrants? Seriously... just about every time the economy takes a dive the immigrants get to act scapegoats. This is the case in any country, even the ever-tolerant Scandinavians are having issues with xenophobia and racism at the moment.

And USA was not founded on religion, that came along later, I don't know where people get that idea from, it's simply not correct in any way whatsoever. The Swedish people who emigrated to America did so partly to be freed from the clutches of the Swedish church. Times have changed indeed.

In any case what it all boils down to is scapegoating, which Americans are particularly prone to owing to their vulnerability to fear. Get some proper statistics on the damage caused by homosexuals, atheists, Muslims, immigrants and then we can talk. There's a reason that's not possible.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Look at Ukraine. The leaders of nations play their geo-political war games, the Grand Chessboard. People in the street will be victims.

The ultimatum has ended. The pro-Russian protestors will be killed. Everyone cries about the injustice of that, yet they put themselves in the very position to martyr themselves like the morons that they are.

Why would a human being do that? Because they feel Russian? What does that mean? The whole social values, norms and doctrine system and cultural programming running in their head that comes out of Russia?

If you like Russia so much, why didn't you move there? The border was open. But no, they had a good life in the Ukraine, they worked, had families, studied and now they want to be Russian?

So, why do these idiots occupy municipal buildings?

If people make a choice not be lead by the nose and pick up weapons, there would be no escalation. I am not a pacifist. I recognize the need for violence in defense. But to occupy the same municipal building where people work that help maintain the streets in your city, that give you an allowance when you are out of work, that finance your education is idiocy.

It all comes down to the individual, doesn't it? Think it over. There IS no military if people refuse to enlist. And if we ALL do that, no nation can attack another, or station tanks on a borderline. Government is power because people make stupid choices.

The people have the power, but the power is not in taking up arms, it is by using your brain and denying access to your spinal cord as to not become a puppet.

And it is so easy. Just. do...not...join...the...fuc...king...military!

That is what it is about.

You seem to reason as if from the perspective of the best of worlds. I don't think that's very constructive. People are the way people are, if that makes them despicable then so be it, doesn't really matter.

Going by the demands you put on individuals to think and act independently, couldn't one say that the people of North Korea are idiots to be shunned for allowing the transgressions they suffer under? Or that Muslims are evil for allowing husbands to beat their wives? The German people -all of them- should've been put on trial at Nürnberg?

 

[Flawed_Ravvn]

Thanks guys

 

[redbaron]

Military works wonders for some people. There are certain people who desperately need some form of structure and discipline to feel content with themselves. There really needs to be a distinction between joining the military and going to war as well.

I don't think the military is holistically as terrible as the way in which some people demonize it, nor as great as others portray it. I know and know of several people for whom military service was a positive thing, especially in terms of physical and emotional health.

 

[Spirit]

Military was good for me.
War brought perspective.

I'm a citizen.

 

[Flawed_Ravvn]

I'm glad,

I didn't make a final decision about joining the military, I simply stated I was thinking about it to help with the financial costs of going to college. Military families aren't very rich so I've gotta help somehow and this is the only way that I know considering that my dad could help me to get the money needed for college. I'm sorry, I'm sorry for being young and defending what I thought was right because that's what I've grown up to believe. I'm not born with all the knowledge in the world nor can I learn it at a very young age. Life is learning about stuff, even if it contradicts your beliefs.

And my dad was not murder, he never killed anyone! He worked on the C-17's and F-15's and 16's. My mom certainly isn't a murder considering she's not even in the military. She's a stay at home mom raising all 5 of us kids like the good women she is. I think its funny that your making all these predictions about my father when you've never even met him nor do you know what he does in the military. My father use to tell me he didn't defend this country because he wanted attention, or respect, or an honorable burial. He told me that he fought for me, his family, and this place that he calls home. What was he fighting? I don't know, like I said I don't know everything, but to a 6 year old girl who was born into a military family, her father that dressed in blues every Monday and Camo every other day, was her hero, her whole world.

 

[Redfire]

Don't be stuck up. You don't like homosexuality, just say so, but don't sneak it in with the idea that hetero's kissing in hallways is equally disgusting. Because you do the exact same thing as when you talk about minorities that you have to cater to out of a sense of respect, when you cannot say Merry x-mas'. So don't be a hypocrite.

I live with a bisexual roommate (who is also my best friend), my mother's best friend who is basically an aunt to me is a lesbian. I could go on, but just believe me: I'm not a homophobe. However: I hate to see people kissing. It's absolutely disgusting, no matter the gender of those involved. So just keep in mind, she may mean what she says.

One more thing. My situation is WG's exact opposite. I was raised in a left-wing family; my grandfather, father and aunt are communists. My high school was basically a school for rich left-wing people. People who say they want to change their world, complain about the USA and then wait for their parents to come pick them up in amazing cars, so they can talk about going to Europe in the summer.
How is that better to her situation?

I definitely think she is indoctrinated, but so is practically everyone. Why is it wrong to kill people? Yes, the US Army is basically a mercenary army for big corporations. So? It's not like people from Iraq or Afghanistan are angels either. Joining the army so she can go to school may be the only way for her to become a sports physician or whatever she wants to be.

Don't judge.

 

[Variform]

@Ukraine
Well, the primary economic base of southeastern Ukraine is going to be destroyed by the trade policies the current coup government wants to implement. Pensions are going to be cut in half as well. Public infrastructure and land is going to be sold via the usual IMF recipe. The coup government blocks Russian language TV stations and implements anti-russian cultural measures.

What current coup government though. The Russian propaganda machine says they are fascists and homosexuals. That is their level of thinking about it. But the fact is that people were tired of the self enriching establishment and wanted to oust the corruption.
Unfortunately for Russia, they were pro-western homosexuals :-)

Oh, the Russian channels are no longer blocked.

So no, they can't go back to their work, studies etc. There will not be as much left of that, and what will be left will pay much less.

Simply fleeing to Russia means economically and socially starting from scratch.

I am not talking about fleeing. Decades the Russia worshippers lived normal lives and now all of a sudden they act out. It is not flight. They had decades to haul ass to their beloved Russia.

But I don't think Russia would have liked them, being immigrants and all.

They are fighting for retaining the opportunity to support themselves and their families economically first and foremost, and secondly, for not being treated in Ukraine similarly to how the Kurds have been treated in Turkey, culturally. Some might even be fighting for that relatively sad thing called Ukrainian democracy.

What do you mean. These pro-Russian protestors lived and worked already for decades there. Apart from the snot-nosed kids and hooligans that are now occupying buildings.

They see struggle as the lesser evil, and they are hoping that if things really turn extremely sour, the coup government will compromise or Russia will militarily intervene.

And yet Russia doesn't even respect them. Useful idiots. That was my point, why be a tool for empire.

 

[Variform]

Nice straw man you got there. Not sure why you have to be so vehement with someone who is still legally a child.

If she is old enough to know about the flowers and the bees and can vote within one year, I sure as hell am gonna talk about anything I like to her.

Legally a child? What, as soon as the clock strikes midnight on her birthday I don't have to tiptoe anymore because suddenly she is a legal adult and 'mature'?

If she is so mature to consider enlisting and being part of an organization that uses billion dollar hardware and high-end technologies to kill people globally, I expect her to be mature enough to hear a counter argument.

 

[redbaron]

Legally a child? What, as soon as the clock strikes midnight on her birthday I don't have to tiptoe anymore because suddenly she is a legal adult and 'mature'?

Maybe you could just not be so vehement...period!

 

[Variform]

You seem to reason as if from the perspective of the best of worlds. I don't think that's very constructive. People are the way people are, if that makes them despicable then so be it, doesn't really matter.

Going by the demands you put on individuals to think and act independently, couldn't one say that the people of North Korea are idiots to be shunned for allowing the transgressions they suffer under? Or that Muslims are evil for allowing husbands to beat their wives? The German people -all of them- should've been put on trial at Nürnberg?

In a way they can be held accountable. The issue is propaganda and indoctrination. The question is, can a person, from withn him or herself, find a moral compass, is it built-in? Or are we merely empty shells void of morality and values?

I think not. Even a North-Korean can go within and find values because they are based on biology and evolution. People can extend the love a mother has for a child, or a father for that matter, and extend it to larger social groups. Altruism exists in nature.

So, to overcome indoctrination may be hard and depending on its persistence, nearly impossible to overcome, but it still can. Fear is what keeps these people down because they will be brutally treated and murdered if they don't.

How are you going to dissent if there are two voting booths, one you use to support the dictator and one if you want to vote no to him.

The other part of this is general or cultural accountability. Can a Muslim be blamed for allowing others of his faith to beat women?

let's talk about your country, Sweden. Rape in Sweden is high by Muslims. Can a community be asked to restrain itself? Yes it can. Muslim community leaders are asked to talk to people, here in .nl.

When a Muslim here commits a crime the mayor drinks tea with the community leaders. Which on one hand is stupid because you cannot cater to their special needs as minority groups, because it is a form of discrimination but on the other hand is logical, because these leaders speak to the perpetrator's families. Ask them to pay more attention to the youth.

In Sweden there seems no criticism on the fact that Muslims rape women without much restraint and if such a woman speaks out about it, she is targeted for being racist or anti-minority.

The thing is, if we deny the fact that a religion is pushing people to abhorrent behavior and only punish individuals for beating their wifes into a bloody pulp, or 'honor killing' them, then you are denying a cultural problem based on individualism, which is our prime paradigm in western society.

And yet, Islam is a collectivist system of culture, part of it being religion. So why would we not demand answers from such groups because they flock together and persist on having their own worldview amidst us.

Yes, peoples, cultural groups, religious people as groups CAN be accountable.

It is what Herstgaard talks about:

"Americans cannot escape a certain responsibility for what is done in our name around the world. In a democracy, even one as corrupted as ours, ultimate authority rests with the people. We empower the government with our votes, finance it with our taxes, bolster it with our silent acquiescence. If we are passive in the face of America's official actions overseas, we in effect endorse them."
-- Mark Hertsgaard, author

For this reason I will not make a distinction between the 'poor misguided american people' and their government. I cannot shed a tear for the 'victims' of 11-9-01. I was banned from a game community because I said 'You had it coming'.

But I am no hypocrite. When my country supported america I was angry and felt awful, because they were doing it in my name!

And that is why I do never vote. I wish no accountability. If a bomb goes off in my nation killing me, I want to be able to say I died neutrally. And then, from my cloud in the sky, I can assign True Blame, because I was an innocent victim.

It is the responsibility of a people to correct their government.

 

[Variform]

Military works wonders for some people. There are certain people who desperately need some form of structure and discipline to feel content with themselves. There really needs to be a distinction between joining the military and going to war as well.

Orwellian Newspeak.

I don't think the military is holistically as terrible as the way in which some people demonize it, nor as great as others portray it. I know and know of several people for whom military service was a positive thing, especially in terms of physical and emotional health.

Yes but how is their personal health and emotional well-being more important than the fact that their work, as a cogwheel in the machine that is the military, than the very lives of some innocent civilian in some other nation?

That is what wrestler girl needs to consider. For her it is about money too.

Basically the predicament of education in the usa is so lousy that the government blackmails people to join the military to get the money to get the education to get the well paid job and live some dream lifestyle.

I don't care if you are just a paper pusher or an accountant in the military or the cafeteria cook on the base, you help make it possible, as part of the base of a piramid, to put soldiers in the field. Because they need the logistics, the catering, the financial administration paying salaries. Even the most menial jobs in the military help get a soldier in the field.

So there is no way to avoid responsibility. But the problem in society today is no one feels responsible because the total amount of possible accountability is divided over all the participants. And the less that responsibility is, the easier it is to wash your hands of it.

'I was just a toilet cleaner in the us military'. Yeah? Pow!

 

[Variform]

Maybe you could just not be so vehement...period!

I do get excited because it means so much to me. I am so fucking tired of culture and propaganda and this eternal human struggle. I am tired of ICT and how it erodes our priciple human right to privacy. I am tired of gullability.

I am tired of myself most of all, I don't like my INTP'ness, I see all these patterns and analyze society and technology and it is just too much now and then.

I talk hard because no one listens. I am a a fool to care. I care about wrestler girl. Maybe it is because she is young and I wished I had some backup at that age when I really needed it. Nobody wizened me up.

 

[Latte]

What current coup government though. The Russian propaganda machine says they are fascists and homosexuals. That is their level of thinking about it. But the fact is that people were tired of the self enriching establishment and wanted to oust the corruption.
Unfortunately for Russia, they were pro-western homosexuals :-)

Oh, the Russian channels are no longer blocked.



I am not talking about fleeing. Decades the Russia worshippers lived normal lives and now all of a sudden they act out. It is not flight. They had decades to haul ass to their beloved Russia.

But I don't think Russia would have liked them, being immigrants and all.



What do you mean. These pro-Russian protestors lived and worked already for decades there. Apart from the snot-nosed kids and hooligans that are now occupying buildings.



And yet Russia doesn't even respect them. Useful idiots. That was my point, why be a tool for empire.

The reversal of some measures happened why? Because of dissent and protest in the southeast. Because of the struggle you paint as being pointless.

And no, there is no tradition of Russia worship in Southeastern Ukraine. Attaching themselves to Russia is a recent thing instigated by what happened in Kiev, or the Maidan episode would never have properly happened due to counterprotests. Southeastern Ukraine is first and foremost pro-their-own-interests as they see them. Or, as someone early in the maidan debacle amusingly declared, the Southeastern Ukraine is pro-ruble, not pro-Russia.

They act out for what they believe to be important reasons. Pretty much their whole Industry is oriented for export towards the Russian market, or internally to Ukraine. If Ukraine has lower toll barriers towards Europe, Russia has to increase its toll barriers to Ukraine to compensate for the flood of cheaper (read: more efficiently produced) European manufactured goods into Ukraine. The result is that Ukrainian industry loses its export market and its domestic market, and with that, a large part of the economic basis of SE Ukraine (and Ukraine as a whole), goes kaput.

However much most of western media characterizes them as being "Pro-Russian", they are first and foremost anti- the current Kiev regime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_d'état This is the answer to your questioning of the characterization of the government as one placed there by a coup.

"Suddenly act out". People don't "Suddenly act out". Be less quick to judge people. If you check things, you'll see that the people behind the maidan are plutocrats as well, and what happened in Ukraine was the black death ousting pneumonia.

 

[Jennywocky]

I do get excited because it means so much to me. I am so fucking tired of culture and propaganda and this eternal human struggle. I am tired of ICT and how it erodes our priciple human right to privacy. I am tired of gullability.

I am tired of myself most of all, I don't like my INTP'ness, I see all these patterns and analyze society and technology and it is just too much now and then.

I talk hard because no one listens. I am a a fool to care. I care about wrestler girl. Maybe it is because she is young and I wished I had some backup at that age when I really needed it. Nobody wizened me up.

If you're sincere about relaying important information to wrestler girl and others as a priority, you will need to tailor your approach to accommodate who they are and where they are at in life.

From what you have explained in this post, your primary drive is actually frustration at a world that does not conform to your sense of logic and personal values, and the frustration is taking precedent over your attempts to communicate your points in an effective manner to instigate change.

As others have noted, comments like "I talk hard because no one listens" -- well, maybe people do listen, but what you think are saying is not what you're actually conveying. You might actually not have the exclusive truth on the matter, so people will disagree with you; or what you mean as information is being diverted by your anger and hence the message is interpreted differently than you planned; or maybe people aren't quite at a place where they can perceive what you perceive right now. Your intellectual skills at this point in time seem to far outstrip your ability to communicate your ideas effectively to other human beings.

I see a lot of these assumptions in your posting about how other people are essentially and purposefully being stupid, or not listening, or being evil, or being selfish if they don't accept or pay attention to your ideas or do things the way that you would do them. There are many more reasons why people might not conform to your sense of reality that I suspect you can come up with, if you'd brainstorm; and not all of them are personally directed at you or reveal some huge moral flaw on their part.

If you care about people, as you suggest here, then you need to step into their shoes, figure out where they are, then tailor the message accordingly and have some patience as well as some openness to a two-way conversation.

 

[Cherry Cola]

As far as I know the rape thing is a myth created by xenophobes, I would like some statistics proving that it isn't before I comment on it.

Though there is a phenomenon like the one you point out in Sweden. People are unwilling to publicly criticize minorities in any form for fear of instigating racism or appearing to be racists. Of course people still do it, they just do it behind the scenes or in specific social contexts. Like.. blue collar workers do it among one another, and online there are a bunch of channels for it, plus we have Sverigedemokraterna (<-nationalist party made up of retards) Problem is the online channels and the blue collar workers tend to be utterly retarded, going far beyond reasonable criticism to vent racialist and xenophobic sentiments blaming Muslims and Gypsies for everything wrong. And if you start criticizing minorities than you'll get lumped with the blue-collars, Sverigedemokraterna and online haters. There is a lot of tension when it comes to these matters. Everyone is quick to cry wolf.

 

[Jennywocky]

Though there is a phenomenon like the one point out in Sweden. People are unwilling to publicly criticize minorities in any form for fear of instigating racism or appearing to be racists. Of course people still do it, they just do it behind the scenes or in specific social contexts. Like.. blue collar workers do it among one another, and online there are a bunch of channels for it, plus we have Sverigedemokraterna (<-nationalist party made up of retards) Problem is the online channels and the blue collar workers tend to be utterly retarded, going far beyond reasonable criticism to vent racialist and xenophobic sentiments blaming Muslims and Gypsies for everything wrong. And if you start criticizing minorities than you'll get lumped with the blue-collars, Sverigedemokraterna and online haters. There is a lot of tension when it comes to these matters. Everyone is quick to cry wolf.

That does reflect in some ways what is happening here in the States.

Lots of cultural shifts, resulting in people who don't like change or feel the changes were bad sometimes being too extreme in their pushback/criticism, resulting in a heated shoving match that only worsens rather than lessens.

Couple that with the ease of accessing public media (websites, Internet/webcast, etc), and you get a lot of argument and anger flying around that is often unproductive. I was just observing a particular minority group last night online, which suffers some external pushback and criticism, indulging in in-group fighting as extreme as any of the criticism from the outside. And it's hard to comment on or contribute to the discussion without being slapped with a label by someone.

 

[Kuu]

Variform, you might be entirely logical in your reasoning, but if you argue too vehemently against a stranger's world view, you won't get a rational agreement, you'll trigger an irrational defence mechanism where the more you speak the less they listen... it's counter-productive. It takes time to absorb information and dismantle a deeply ingrained world-view. Patience and friendliness will take you further than an all-out attack.

I suggest you let the subject rest for a while. Perhaps you can advise our new member on ways to acquire money for education that don't involve the military, instead of just bashing it? That might be more effective to both of you...

 

[Variform]

I live with a bisexual roommate (who is also my best friend), my mother's best friend who is basically an aunt to me is a lesbian. I could go on, but just believe me: I'm not a homophobe. However: I hate to see people kissing. It's absolutely disgusting, no matter the gender of those involved. So just keep in mind, she may mean what she says.

One more thing. My situation is WG's exact opposite. I was raised in a left-wing family; my grandfather, father and aunt are communists. My high school was basically a school for rich left-wing people. People who say they want to change their world, complain about the USA and then wait for their parents to come pick them up in amazing cars, so they can talk about going to Europe in the summer.
How is that better to her situation?

I definitely think she is indoctrinated, but so is practically everyone. Why is it wrong to kill people? Yes, the US Army is basically a mercenary army for big corporations. So? It's not like people from Iraq or Afghanistan are angels either. Joining the army so she can go to school may be the only way for her to become a sports physician or whatever she wants to be.

Don't judge.

But we must judge. Otherwise we fall prone to ultra-relativism. I believe there are values and norms that are not debatable.

Yes, we are all indoctrinated, but some more than others. And then there are people who fight daily to get rid of it, like me.

It is a deep psychological need for me to be free. No one can ever be completely free because as you rid yourself of thoughts and behavioral patterns that sneaked in the backdoor, you may get new ones in. It is like dusting your house. You never succeed in completely removing all dust.

For me it is very vital I keep fighting to fee the mind. So I am probably an utter freak!

But I have trouble with this often seen argument, the validation for your own situation or behavior by the perception that another is also doing bad things.

Isn't that childish thinking? Yes the Taliban were brutal, does that validate america's army to do what they like?

Even this morning I see Biden on tv declaring that americans never give in to fear, the propaganda continues, for america is the most afraid nation in the world. They see evil everywhere.

 

[Cherry Cola]

I'm glad,

I didn't make a final decision about joining the military, I simply stated I was thinking about it to help with the financial costs of going to college. Military families aren't very rich so I've gotta help somehow and this is the only way that I know considering that my dad could help me to get the money needed for college. I'm sorry, I'm sorry for being young and defending what I thought was right because that's what I've grown up to believe. I'm not born with all the knowledge in the world nor can I learn it at a very young age. Life is learning about stuff, even if it contradicts your beliefs.

And my dad was not murder, he never killed anyone! He worked on the C-17's and F-15's and 16's. My mom certainly isn't a murder considering she's not even in the military. She's a stay at home mom raising all 5 of us kids like the good women she is. I think its funny that your making all these predictions about my father when you've never even met him nor do you know what he does in the military. My father use to tell me he didn't defend this country because he wanted attention, or respect, or an honorable burial. He told me that he fought for me, his family, and this place that he calls home. What was he fighting? I don't know, like I said I don't know everything, but to a 6 year old girl who was born into a military family, her father that dressed in blues every Monday and Camo every other day, was her hero, her whole world.

You have nothing to be sorry about, on the contrary you seem remarkably open to ideas running counter to your worldview, if more people were like you in that regard I'm sure the world would be a better place. Furthermore, your dads philosophy of life is highly respectable.

 

[Variform]

The reversal of some measures happened why? Because of dissent and protest in the southeast. Because of the struggle you paint as being pointless.

And no, there is no tradition of Russia worship in Southeastern Ukraine. Attaching themselves to Russia is a recent thing instigated by what happened in Kiev, or the Maidan episode would never have properly happened due to counterprotests. Southeastern Ukraine is first and foremost pro-their-own-interests as they see them. Or, as someone early in the maidan debacle amusingly declared, the Southeastern Ukraine is pro-ruble, not pro-Russia.

Yes, this is actually true. I stand corrected. Thank you for this insight.

They act out for what they believe to be important reasons. Pretty much their whole Industry is oriented for export towards the Russian market, or internally to Ukraine. If Ukraine has lower toll barriers towards Europe, Russia has to increase its toll barriers to Ukraine to compensate for the flood of cheaper (read: more efficiently produced) European manufactured goods into Ukraine. The result is that Ukrainian industry loses its export market and its domestic market, and with that, a large part of the economic basis of SE Ukraine (and Ukraine as a whole), goes kaput.

I didn't realize this. Also, the wages in that part of the country are low, €200,- a month. And it is mostly heavy industry it seems.

However much most of western media characterizes them as being "Pro-Russian", they are first and foremost anti- the current Kiev regime.

This is true. The Western media play an important and biased role in all this. I think the usa made hundreds of attempts to destabilize Cuba. So when Russia denies allegations of interfering, they are lying, because I am sure they have hand in it, but I bet the americans are really hard at work in Ukraine too. And they have a history of undermining other weaker nations.

"Suddenly act out". People don't "Suddenly act out". Be less quick to judge people. If you check things, you'll see that the people behind the maidan are plutocrats as well, and what happened in Ukraine was the black death ousting pneumonia.

I am not sure about that. The question is, can they evolve. Maybe by definition any coup situation requires more or less questionable people. The people willing to go on the barricades are a special stock. Not everyone can do it. When those come to power...

 

[Variform]

As far as I know the rape thing is a myth created by xenophobes, I would like some statistics proving that it isn't before I comment on it.

Notice how you immediately call out the xenophone defense. You are a socialist. I get that. Socialists are, like any othe rideology prone to denial.

http://muslimrapewave.wordpress.com...ghest-rape-statistics-in-europe-i-wonder-why/

But that URL is a blog, so perhaps 'questionable'.

Wikipedia then:

"Sweden has the highest incidence of reported rapes in Europe and one of the highest in the world. According to a 2009 study, there were 46 incidents of rape per 100,000 residents. This figure is twice that of the UK which reports 23 cases, and four times that of the other Nordic countries, Germany and France. The figure is up to 20 times the figure for certain countries in southern and eastern Europe.[174]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics

http://therisingcaliphate.wordpress.com/statistics/sweden-rape-statistics/

Check the graph.

"Staggering rape and assault rape statistics from Sweden from 1985-89 and 1997-2001. Rape committed by Swedish born rapists (blue) were 22.4%. Foreign rapists represent 77.6%"

I think the Swedes need to hold their beloved Muslims more accountable. It sickens me. You throw the pride of your nation, the typical blue eyed blond girl to the Muslim wolf and don't care enough that to acknowledge it. Sweep it under the rug. You should start listening to Pat Condell.

Though there is a phenomenon like the one you point out in Sweden. People are unwilling to publicly criticize minorities in any form for fear of instigating racism or appearing to be racists.

So let these bastards rape then, because maybe that is better than being called racist.

The quote on patriotism applies to Sweden to, that it is better to be a rapist or murderer than to be called unpatriotic.

My girlfriend was raped you know. I have no patience for this. She never really got over it. I, yes, I now suffer for it too, because sexuality is such a huge problem for her. Now my relationship is going to hell because of that rape. And I know it isn't JUST that rape, but it is the major issue.

I wouldn't be thinking about offing myself, if my girl had not been raped by two men.

For me this is very real. I was always told you had more nurses and cops per capita than any other nation. Well it seems the cops aren't doing their fucking job and the nurses can clean up the rape victims, what a great socialism.

Sorry man, but, come on. You people need to wake the fuck up. Close your borders and start defending yourself. I don't know what gun laws you have in Sweden but I am for it when you people start a pogrom.

If Sweden can't be clean, all the way up North, as far away from the Middle East as you can, from this human Muslim filth, then what hope does any other nation have.

Rape means you destroy a woman, sometimes for life, but also every relationship she has afterwards, if affects her family, maybe her children, her trust in men and society and sense of justice.

Rape is worse than murder, because when someone gets killed, the family can come to terms with it and move on, but in many women (or men) it linger son and on and on. And 20 and 30 years down the line it STILL fucks up relationships. I am for capital punishment for rapists.

Thje rest of your denialism I will not respond too. I know you are a socialist and they have a tendency to call everyone racist and xenophobe usually because they cuddle immigrants for votes, like the Dutch Labour Party. And I am more a socialist than a liberal or anything else, but I am not a moron. I see this tendency. Hell, what the fuck am I INTP for if I am not open to the rational truth?

 

[Variform]

Variform, you might be entirely logical in your reasoning, but if you argue too vehemently against a stranger's world view, you won't get a rational agreement, you'll trigger an irrational defence mechanism where the more you speak the less they listen... it's counter-productive. It takes time to absorb information and dismantle a deeply ingrained world-view. Patience and friendliness will take you further than an all-out attack.

Well then, let me be the bad cop and you all can be the good cop. I am fine with that, at this point in my life.

I think though, that, though it is hard to know when it is a good moment, that at times we are too patient and at other times not patient enough.

Maybe she will hate my guts and then listen more to you! I'll use the american military doctrine of shock and awe and you...do...your stuff.

I suggest you let the subject rest for a while. Perhaps you can advise our new member on ways to acquire money for education that don't involve the military, instead of just bashing it? That might be more effective to both of you...

Yes I should let it rest. It comes in waves though. Usually on the beat of Yet Another Transgression. I care about the world and maybe too much. Analyze me. Are my own problems the reason I project to attack other evils I discern? I could be that shallow.

How to acquire money in the usa? Flip burgers, isn't that what they all do? We had this discussion here elsewhere about college and how like what, 40% of college graduates flip burgers anyway, but then with a debt of 40k.

It is the military, flip burgers or prostitution I guess. Oh and here and there a blue collar. Who cares what she chooses? She will know better than I do what to do. But it depends on her dreams and demands. She seems to want to earn loads of money. How to be in the world.

 

[Latte]

Yeah, it's quite muddy. The US and Russia doubtlessly both have people on the ground indeed, monitoring and in varying degree trying to steer things in the direction they want, as well as there probably being indirect funding of various activities (though where Russia wants to steer it in regards to SE Ukraine is difficult to know because absorbing it or dethroning the current Kiev government would be very messy and costly in various ways). It is hard to determine their exact plans for many reasons.

 

[Variform]

I'm glad,

I didn't make a final decision about joining the military, I simply stated I was thinking about it to help with the financial costs of going to college. Military families aren't very rich so I've gotta help somehow and this is the only way that I know considering that my dad could help me to get the money needed for college. I'm sorry, I'm sorry for being young and defending what I thought was right because that's what I've grown up to believe. I'm not born with all the knowledge in the world nor can I learn it at a very young age. Life is learning about stuff, even if it contradicts your beliefs.

And my dad was not murder, he never killed anyone! He worked on the C-17's and F-15's and 16's. My mom certainly isn't a murder considering she's not even in the military. She's a stay at home mom raising all 5 of us kids like the good women she is. I think its funny that your making all these predictions about my father when you've never even met him nor do you know what he does in the military. My father use to tell me he didn't defend this country because he wanted attention, or respect, or an honorable burial. He told me that he fought for me, his family, and this place that he calls home. What was he fighting? I don't know, like I said I don't know everything, but to a 6 year old girl who was born into a military family, her father that dressed in blues every Monday and Camo every other day, was her hero, her whole world.

Well, now you have more information to choose from. And also the lesson that you can look around for more points of view. I am sure you will use that freedom!

Your father never killed anyone, but he helped to maintain the machines that did. And that makes him in my not too humble opinion an accessory to murder.

But this is how people avoid and evade responsibility. But mind you, that even if you can make a moral argument in his favor, the English firebombed German industrial cities, committing the most evil type of horror and human rights violations, to kill the workers behind the machines that helped to keep the German army going. Were they right to do so? What excuse did they have?

If your father dies working on that F-16, his base firebombed, will you lament his faith?

In a book series by Terry Goodkind, a fantasy series, Richard, the main character, the good guy, wielding the 'Sword Of Truth' is fighting a million men army and is greatly outnumbered, with more soldiers arriving in his home lands by the day. They cannot win.

In the wake of this vast sea of men, there are cooks, whores, blacksmiths and all kinds of people living off the army, supporting it. What Richard decides is to attack those people.

He creates an ambush and rides in with many men and rampages mercilessly to kill as many whores and support workers as he can. Make no mistake, the book is clear, he has no mercy because these people made an immoral choice to support an raping army that commits atrocities on a scale scarcely imaginable.

The lack of whores will make the army more on edge.

He uses every trick he can find. He uses an ancient magic weapon that when set off, blows I guess s dort of glass splinters right into the ranks of the enemy legions. It blinds literally hundreds of thousands of men.

I compare the invading army with america's army. And so, will you demand revenge if one day they get to your father?

Terry Goodkind is a strange fellow I think.

In another book in this series he writes about a nation of people, secluded in a mountain range, shielded from the rest of the world by a barrier. On the edges of this barrier are status with words, The words say that the most dangerous people live inside.

Richard finds a way in and encounters these people. These people are basically pacifists. The evil empire he is fighting alsofound a way in and some bands are raping, killing, torturing around and the pacifists do nothing. Their most basic outlook on life is non-resistance.

What Goodkind is saying here is that such pacifism is immoral, dangerous because evil needs to be met. People who do not defend themselves are a danger to all peoples.

Well america cannot be said to be pacifist. A strange dichotomy here. On one hand we have this evil empire, that I am sure he would not believe to be comparable to america and on the other a dangerous pacifist people.

So he is like, fight evil, don't be totally pacifist, yet Richard is a peace loving person, but ready to be incredibly terrorist-like brutal when she slaughters whores and profiteers.

So what role does your father play? Is he the blacksmith? Rightfully killed by Richard? It is not as if america is Richard's army, outnumbered and being slaughtered. America is the aggressor in the world.

It is said that innocent americans died on 11-9-01. But this evil empire Richard fights also has businesses in their homer lands, entrepreneurs that help and participate to create an economy, that brings gold in the coffers of their leader, who pays the soldiers.

What Richard does is he goes behind the evil army, into their lands, and kills whoever supports the army. But Richard is the good guy! Confused?

He also finds people willing to listen to reason, who are not happy with their leader and them he shows mercy. He tries to incite revolts and make people see a better way. And they agree, things can be made better in their local economy, they all benefit.

I have great trouble with reasoning like Richard. But I see the point. When I think about Taliban e.g. and their atrocities, I dehumanize them because I feel these beasts should not be entitled the dignity of being called humans, when they stone women to death for showing their face in public and more of that kind of shit.

Personally I think maybe it is best to kill them all, then kill their children so that their 'value system' cannot take root, kill everyone they know to the 9th degree of family relations.

Is this needed? Is this how you fight evil? Because the Taliban are evil, there is no moral relativism possible here. But I cannot endorse this view. It is the view when under Clinton, Albright, was she Secretary of State? She found it acceptable that hundreds of thousands of Iraqi kids had died because of the UN imposed sanctions, that that was worth it. Apparently oil under Iraq was more important and these deaths were justifiable. Remove a dictator by killing the people.

Your father is in an immoral position. He offers support by maintaining military hardware that IS and WILL BE used to kill for imperialistic reasons. And yet people tell me I need to bring the news to you pussyfooting around it.

I have no answers or a perfect moral guideline. I read Goodkind's books and loathe his ideas. I guess I am 70% for the pacifists and peace and the Human Brotherhood and 25% the merciless nemesis. The other 5%? I don't know.

But I do know this, for your father nor you will I lament if you perish doing military support work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGcO6zZ4MRM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCYPrur6ssU

 

[Absurdity]

Your father never killed anyone, but he helped to maintain the machines that did. And that makes him in my not too humble opinion an accessory to murder.

This is sheer idiocy. I guess that makes auto mechanics accessories to murder too, since people die in car accidents. And burger flippers, because people die from heart disease. Guess your one piece of stunning career advice for her is out the window as well since it doesn't live up to your bizarrely stringent moral code. I suppose her only choice now is to adopt the life of an ascetic Puritan shrieking about how they are holier than thou on the internet.

Get a life.

 

[Cavallier]

Okay, you've made your point Variform. Move on now please. You have different points of view. Get over it.

 

[Jennywocky]

Anyway, despite the douchebaggery unfolding in an Intro thread, I was glad to see you participating here, Wrestler Girl, and hope you continue to do so.

 

[digitalbum]

Name: Myla
Where I live: Washington, sadly
Age: 17
School: High school
Family: I'm the oldest of five kids and a military brat
Type: INTP, I found out by doing a personality test.
Sports: wrestler (yes, you read that right), Kick boxer, basically anything sports and fun!
Career: I don't have one, but I am looking for a job.
Pets: one dog and three guienea pigs (I think I spelled that right)
What I wanna do after high school: I want to become a sports physician and maybe a little psychology.

Rad!

I've known a few wrestlers. Iron wills and great discipline.

I've rolled (jiu jitsu) with several great wrestlers. The ones that were new to Jiu Jitsu could take me down so easily, BUT were totally clueless afterward and were SOOOO easily submitted. I guess cuz once a wrestler has you on the mat, the round(?) is over. I bet you'd really like some Jiu Jitsu.

Kickboxing can be hardcore. You have a good muay thai kick? Those things can be DEVASTATING.

Anyway, welcome aboard. I'm not even an INTP, but hell, welcome anyway.

 

[Redfire]

But we must judge. Otherwise we fall prone to ultra-relativism. I believe there are values and norms that are not debatable.

Yes, we are all indoctrinated, but some more than others. And then there are people who fight daily to get rid of it, like me.

It is a deep psychological need for me to be free. No one can ever be completely free because as you rid yourself of thoughts and behavioral patterns that sneaked in the backdoor, you may get new ones in. It is like dusting your house. You never succeed in completely removing all dust.

For me it is very vital I keep fighting to fee the mind. So I am probably an utter freak!

But I have trouble with this often seen argument, the validation for your own situation or behavior by the perception that another is also doing bad things.

Isn't that childish thinking? Yes the Taliban were brutal, does that validate america's army to do what they like?

Even this morning I see Biden on tv declaring that americans never give in to fear, the propaganda continues, for america is the most afraid nation in the world. They see evil everywhere.

You are right about the US Army, but surely you don't think that every single person that has enlisted has made a wrong decision, do you? There's a guy in this forum who joined to support his family. Maybe it's the only way for him to support them, and otherwise they would be in the streets. That probably isn't the case, but what if it was?

 

[Flawed_Ravvn]

@Digitalbum- I've done jiu jitsu before, its a pretty cool style not gonna lie. The reason why we are so easily submitted is because we can't do submission holds in wrestling. I know a few moves from Judo but we are not allowed to use them, sadly

And its match, there are three rounds each lasting between 1 to 2 minutes depending on what kind of tournament it is and what kind of match it is. For example, For the State tournament, each round lasts about 1:30 until you get to the championship rounds, then they bump them up to 2 minutes. There are such thing as sudden death rounds, this usually happens after all three normal rounds have been done but no wrestler has pinned the other or they are even in score points. The sudden death round is usually lasts only one minute and the winner is determined by who ever gets the takedown.

Takedown is called when your hips are behind your opponents hips. If no takedown is called after 1 minute then another sudden death round in called until a winner is decided. I've had several of these myself and they can be very nerve racking.

Muay thai kicks are my specialty, although it can be hard to kick some opponents cause I'm so short and small too, that's why I do a lot of aerial kicks and ground work. And yes, they can be very devastating, I once saw a guy get his leg broken because of a Muay Thai kick. The most I've done to a person is a broken nose and a couple of cracked ribs but that's about it. Do you like cage fighting? Like MMA and UFC?

Thanks for the welcome by the way

@Jennywocky: Thanks

@Variform: I don't hate you, although I do think your attempt at changing my world views is a really harsh. Having someone tell you that your dad is a murder and everything that you believe is lie from a complete stranger is gonna be hard to take, but I understand. Sometimes you gotta learn the hard way about things, that's something that I've grown up learning.

I would have to agree with Absurdity, those burgers that your flipping are killing Americans everyday. You don't see it but your certainly apart of it :P

In my mind my dad thought he was doing what was right to make money and support a family. Was it the best decision? Probably not. Personally I wished he would have stayed in school to get his doctorate like he wanted to but something came up. I don't know what it was and he won't tell me. I don't think you should be hating my dad or me, I think you should be hating America and its propaganda.

And I guess thanks for caring even though that a weird way to show it.

 

[Cherry Cola]

@Variform, asking for sources=xenophobe defense? Ok. In any case the statistics are only concerned with reported cases of rape which is pretty relevant. In any case let me propose another illogical defense: you obviously have no idea about how the Swedish society works which is quite evident. We need guns? Allow me to laugh. There is no point in discussing this.

But in any case from the wiki article:

Sweden has the highest incidence of reported rapes in Europe and one of the highest in the world.

Uhuh.

The figure is up to 20 times the figure for certain countries in southern and eastern Europe.

Gee I wonder why! Actually I don't since it says so in the following sentences:

The Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention claims that it is not "possible to evaluate and compare the actual levels of violent crimes... between countries", but that in any case the high numbers are explained by a broader legal definition of rape than in other countries, and an effort to register all suspected and repeated rapes. It asserts that comparisons based on victim surveys place Sweden at an average level among European nations.

Rape haven indeed.

Furthermore, if you look at rape statistics in other nations where Muslims aren't bundled together in ghettos like in Sweden or Europe they don't rape any more than anyone else. The Muslim Wolf -nicely agitating term there- is a wolf among sheep because of the social environments Muslims are subjected to, not because Muslims are inherently rapists.

Should Sweden accept less immigrants? Probably, seeing as immigrants get bundled up causing them to not be integrated properly into society. We could send more money to countries in need instead. The reason why this doesn't happen is because Swedish people do not want to be a part of the wave of racism which has swept across Europe following the economical decline. Hence genuine xenophobes and racists have sort of claimed a monopoly on arguing for a heavily diminished immigration hence.. a wth I wrote about that in an earlier post anyway.

 

[digitalbum]

@Digitalbum- I've done jiu jitsu before, its a pretty cool style not gonna lie. The reason why we are so easily submitted is because we can't do submission holds in wrestling. I know a few moves from Judo but we are not allowed to use them, sadly

And its match, there are three rounds each lasting between 1 to 2 minutes depending on what kind of tournament it is and what kind of match it is. For example, For the State tournament, each round lasts about 1:30 until you get to the championship rounds, then they bump them up to 2 minutes. There are such thing as sudden death rounds, this usually happens after all three normal rounds have been done but no wrestler has pinned the other or they are even in score points. The sudden death round is usually lasts only one minute and the winner is determined by who ever gets the takedown.

Takedown is called when your hips are behind your opponents hips. If no takedown is called after 1 minute then another sudden death round in called until a winner is decided. I've had several of these myself and they can be very nerve racking.

Muay thai kicks are my specialty, although it can be hard to kick some opponents cause I'm so short and small too, that's why I do a lot of aerial kicks and ground work. And yes, they can be very devastating, I once saw a guy get his leg broken because of a Muay Thai kick. The most I've done to a person is a broken nose and a couple of cracked ribs but that's about it. Do you like cage fighting? Like MMA and UFC?

yeah definitely. Though I haven't been training as much as I'd like recently. I went through a 2 year period of training pretty consistently off and on. I've broken a nose or two, had mine broken. Got a deep thigh bruise from a 230lb bald kickboxer with a celtic anchor tattooed on his calf, haha, couldn't walk for a week, but was ok. And really motivated me to be able to do that.

I've never competed all out in a cage, though I've done some hard sparring. So in that respect, I am not a badass compared to those guys. I'm at an age where having my face rearranged doesn't really sound too appealing, and I've seen, about 1 foot away from a cage (I was a photographer at some cage fights) dudes literally get their noses shifted about an inch to the left, ha.

The gym was primarily striking, as the owner was 3rd generation boxing gym owner, but it was well rounded. I mostly stick to Jiu Jitsu these days. Less chance of injury (knock on wood). But still love to beat the ever living shit out of a punching bag, and the occasional light sparring.

Loooove some UFC. "As real as it gets" haha