• OK, it's on.
  • Please note that many, many Email Addresses used for spam, are not accepted at registration. Select a respectable Free email.
  • Done now. Domine miserere nobis.

New Girl

Flawed_Ravvn

Active Member
Local time
Today 5:33 AM
Joined
Apr 11, 2014
Messages
112
---
Name: Myla
Where I live: Washington, sadly
Age: 17
School: High school
Family: I'm the oldest of five kids and a military brat
Type: INTP, I found out by doing a personality test.
Sports: wrestler (yes, you read that right), Kick boxer, basically anything sports and fun!
Career: I don't have one, but I am looking for a job.
Pets: one dog and three guienea pigs (I think I spelled that right)
What I wanna do after high school: I want to become a sports physician and maybe a little psychology.
 

Flawed_Ravvn

Active Member
Local time
Today 5:33 AM
Joined
Apr 11, 2014
Messages
112
---
Pros: Seattle is pretty nice and the 4th of July is amazing, we don't even have to buy fireworks cause everyone around pays for them :) The school system is pretty good, not the people inside the schools, but like the curriculum and stuff.

Cons: In rains here most of the year an its cold rain so its not like you can run and play in it. A lot of people live here so traffic is a pain to deal with. People here can give you the cold shoulder, before I lived here, I lived in Florida and there everyone is nice to you. Here its let me ignore you while I play on my phone.

And that's really all I can think of at the moment.
 

TimeAsylums

Prolific Member
Local time
Yesterday 10:33 PM
Joined
May 9, 2013
Messages
3,127
---
how do you enjoy being a military brat?
 

Flawed_Ravvn

Active Member
Local time
Today 5:33 AM
Joined
Apr 11, 2014
Messages
112
---
Its got its advantages and disadvantages, I like that I can see the world and be on the base with my dad that's for sure. I was born in England so that's pretty cool to be able to tell people :)
 

Pyropyro

Magos Biologis
Local time
Today 1:33 PM
Joined
Feb 3, 2012
Messages
4,044
---
Location
Philippines
Welcome Wrestler Girl 97!

What's the more exciting of your two disciplines? Which one causes more injuries? Which one is more of a brain/strategy game?

What's your opinion on WWE/WWF?
 

Flawed_Ravvn

Active Member
Local time
Today 5:33 AM
Joined
Apr 11, 2014
Messages
112
---
@Pyropyro-First let me say, I love your username
Wrestling would probably be my favorite cause I can throw people and put them into a pretzel if they make me mad (which is fun by the way). Kickboxing is probably causes more injuries cause you are punching and kicking a person lol!! but it can be pretty fun.

WWE/WWF: Honestly, I enjoy what they can come up with, but I also hate it cause it makes real wrestling look like a joke, I really like UFC, I actually know a guy who does fight in the cage for a living, I've taken a few lessons from him. Another thing about it is that its not even real so it kind of spoils it once you know that.
 

Pyropyro

Magos Biologis
Local time
Today 1:33 PM
Joined
Feb 3, 2012
Messages
4,044
---
Location
Philippines
@Pyropyro-First let me say, I love your username
Wrestling would probably be my favorite cause I can throw people and put them into a pretzel if they make me mad (which is fun by the way). Kickboxing is probably causes more injuries cause you are punching and kicking a person lol!! but it can be pretty fun.

WWE/WWF: Honestly, I enjoy what they can come up with, but I also hate it cause it makes real wrestling look like a joke, I really like UFC, I actually know a guy who does fight in the cage for a living, I've taken a few lessons from him. Another thing about it is that its not even real so it kind of spoils it once you know that.


Thanks!

Real wrestling sounds awesome :) Throwing people like sack of potatoes and twisting their bodies sounds quite intriguing.

I've done some Taekwondo before and I enjoy the sparring. Perhaps Kickboxing would be more fun for me. I really don't mind minor injuries that much. I have a mostly office job so I won't be hampered.

Yeah, WWE/WWF is more like a violent dance/soap opera more than anything. It's great that MMA is giving real wrestling its well deserved respect.
 

Flawed_Ravvn

Active Member
Local time
Today 5:33 AM
Joined
Apr 11, 2014
Messages
112
---
Thanks!

Real wrestling sounds awesome :) Throwing people like sack of potatoes and twisting their bodies sounds quite intriguing.

I've done some Taekwondo before and I enjoy the sparring. Perhaps Kickboxing would be more fun for me. I really don't mind minor injuries that much. I have a mostly office job so I won't be hampered.

Yeah, WWE/WWF is more like a violent dance/soap opera more than anything. It's great that MMA is giving real wrestling its well deserved respect.

I'm so glad I'm not the only one who thinks putting someone in a pretzel and throwing them around is fun :) Minor injuries don't phase me either, I just likes how you would get girls coming in that were like major drama queens and such, they would come in thinking that they could take the fighting and such, first time they ever get punched, they are crying and quit the next day lol!!!! I also give you props for doing a desk job, I can't stand sitting and doing something, I need to be out and moving or else everyone that I see would be in a pretzel. Wrestling is also a pretty good stress reliever too, that's what I like mostly about it too :)
 

Variform

Banned
Local time
Today 5:33 AM
Joined
Mar 11, 2014
Messages
809
---
Name: Myla
Where I live: Washington, sadly
Age: 17
School: High school
Family: I'm the oldest of five kids and a military brat

What does that mean? Your parents are in the military? Oh I just read you live on a base. Did you know that the base of the american economy is the military spending?

Type: INTP, I found out by doing a personality test.
Sports: wrestler (yes, you read that right), Kick boxer, basically anything sports and fun!
Career: I don't have one, but I am looking for a job.
Pets: one dog and three guienea pigs (I think I spelled that right)

Guinea pigs. From Peru, where people eat them :mad: And there are so :angel:
I had two. They were awesome. I believe they control the world and mankind are their slaves, to feed them and love them and clean their cages.

What I wanna do after high school: I want to become a sports physician and maybe a little psychology.

What about a sport psychologist.
http://sportpsychology.com/
 

Flawed_Ravvn

Active Member
Local time
Today 5:33 AM
Joined
Apr 11, 2014
Messages
112
---
@Variform- military brat is a term used when your parents are in the military, currently my dad is in the Air Force, and no I did not know that :) I know a lot when it comes to the military, but I didn't know that.

Guniea pigs are pretty cool, but very loud, mine squeak all the time. Did you know that theres such thing as a Giant Guniea Pig?

A sports psychologist does sound interesting, I'll have to look into further. Psychology is one of my favorite things to study, next to medicine.
 

Duxwing

I've Overcome Existential Despair
Local time
Today 12:33 AM
Joined
Sep 9, 2012
Messages
3,783
---
@Variform- military brat is a term used when your parents are in the military, currently my dad is in the Air Force, and no I did not know that :) I know a lot when it comes to the military, but I didn't know that.

The base of the American economy is not military spending: it is services.

-Duxwing
 

Latte

Preferably Not Redundant
Local time
Today 6:33 AM
Joined
Oct 15, 2010
Messages
843
---
Location
Where do you live?
Uh call me crazy but he said it was not based on the military?
U CRAY MATE. U SO CRAY, U A CRAYFISH.

It's like crawfish but fisherprice crayons, so they're not on sale.

Let me express what doesn't need to be expressed because the express train arrives too early and then agoraphobia sets in while one waits for the building to open.

There seems to have been an interpretation of the sentence as meaning it not being based on military spending, but on military services, alongside the other basegroove interpretation (TM) of seeing services to be not so much context glued to the military categorical hierarchy of montezuma the third, who preferred to be called montezuma the turd because poop is what escapes us all and thus, montezuma's freedom was ensured.

I personally read the sentence and thought it an ambiguity where I couldn't decide for sure which he meant, but the intuitive gambler in me would have gone with just services in general I think. Even though it's trademarked.

eeweeweqeqjeqweqweqweqwe

:rip: all who enter the tekken
 

Base groove

Banned
Local time
Yesterday 10:33 PM
Joined
Dec 20, 2013
Messages
1,864
---
You sure make a lot of poop jokes for somebody who's got such exceptional skills of anal lysis.
 

Variform

Banned
Local time
Today 5:33 AM
Joined
Mar 11, 2014
Messages
809
---
@Variform- military brat is a term used when your parents are in the military, currently my dad is in the Air Force, and no I did not know that :) I know a lot when it comes to the military, but I didn't know that.

Few people do.

Guniea pigs are pretty cool, but very loud, mine squeak all the time. Did you know that theres such thing as a Giant Guniea Pig?

They are social creatures. A friend of mine has one. I can hear it on skype. Mine weren't very loud.

Giant guinea pig? Maybe you mean the Capibara of South America, Colombia. They live in swamps. I saw a few recently in a nearby Zoo. One of my favorite animals :-)


A sports psychologist does sound interesting, I'll have to look into further. Psychology is one of my favorite things to study, next to medicine.

Well it all fits together. I hope you don't faint seeing blood and are very smart. You will need a brain if you choose that career. Did you ever do an IQ test?
 

Variform

Banned
Local time
Today 5:33 AM
Joined
Mar 11, 2014
Messages
809
---
@Duxwing: Why is it based on the military services?

America has a military capability that is as big as all of the rest of the world combined. It is used to promote and defend american interests, which means so much as imperialism. Which in turn means, we do whatever we like to other people and we don't feel accountable for the results.

It is called the permanent war economy. After WW II america started a cold war with the USSR. This was a deliberate decision. They lied to the public that they were a Big Threat and used all sort of propaganda techniques to cause fear.
That lead to a permanent war industry, to build weapons and bases to promote the imperial agenda. Your parents are part of that agenda. They may feel patriotic and doing the world a favor or something, but their good intentions are misused by government.

When a call comes, your parents will be part of a military that attacks the world for purely american interests. Which are, access to global resources such as energy and commodities. America's armies are basically a private tool for the biggest corporations.

That is why I am happy you are considering a more noble career path.
 

Cherry Cola

Banned
Local time
Today 5:33 AM
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
3,899
---
Location
stockholm
Hmm, since you do wrestling and kick boxing maybe you are deadlier in combat than SpaceYeti and Time Asylums, I might need to update the fighting thread.
 

Base groove

Banned
Local time
Yesterday 10:33 PM
Joined
Dec 20, 2013
Messages
1,864
---
Hmm, since you do wrestling and kick boxing maybe you are deadlier in combat than SpaceYeti and Time Asylums, I might need to update the fighting thread.

The only way to know for sure is to have them both battle her at once since she has mastery over two forms of combat she can be reasonably expected to defeat two opponents.
 

Flawed_Ravvn

Active Member
Local time
Today 5:33 AM
Joined
Apr 11, 2014
Messages
112
---
@Variform- no I've never taken an IQ test but I probably showed sometime soon. The sight of blood and stuff doesn't really phase me very much, I'll watch surgical procedures on youtube a lot (its weird I know). I am thinking about joining the military, but to pay for my college, becoming a sports physician takes a lot of schooling therefore a lot of money, money that I don't have. So I'm planning on joining the military until I'm done with my schooling, then I'm getting out as soon as possible. I support our military but I think its really changed over the past couple of years. I don't want to choose the military as a job cause they don't get paid nearly as much as I think they should, you pay is based on Congress and what they agree on, and at any day you could be kicked out for something that's stupid and probably a lie (personal experience wit that one).

@Cherry Cola & Base Groove: I wouldn't say I'm a master at it. I've only been doing wrestling for three years now and kickboxing been on and off for the past 10 years. And that wouldn't be fair if I fought both of them at the same time lol! I wouldn't want to to be honest.
 

Variform

Banned
Local time
Today 5:33 AM
Joined
Mar 11, 2014
Messages
809
---
@Variform- no I've never taken an IQ test but I probably showed sometime soon. The sight of blood and stuff doesn't really phase me very much, I'll watch surgical procedures on youtube a lot (its weird I know). I am thinking about joining the military, but to pay for my college, becoming a sports physician takes a lot of schooling therefore a lot of money, money that I don't have.

Welcome to america. Please consider alternatives. Because I have seen how many people have this plan and then never really get out of the military anymore. I see it as a form of prostitution. You be part of the imperialistic war machine, even though just a small cogwheel, but it cannot function without people who compromise values for money.

This is how they get you. Loads of poor people join because it is basically a blackmail system. You keep people poor, they will join. And then you are owned. Because you cannot disobey orders. They make you part of it and bestow responsibility on you for your choice.

Like I just saw a Predator Drone Co-Pilot on tv here. He suffers from PTSD. He fired a missile from a drone on a target and sees a child run around the corner and gets obliterated. He couldn't do it anymore. When he left he got a plaque stating 1668 or something. That is how many people his team killed.

People only feel guilty after the fact, don't they? The officer in command, when interviewed, said that every one voluntarily chose to do this work. The moron didn't seem to care about what it does to people. 25% of all killed are innocents. He also said, this co-pilot, that they would stay in the blast zone, then follow the people that came collect the bodies home. And then they would bomb them as they got together, like parties or weddings.

You are 17. You have not been compromised by the military yet. Join the military and you will be accountable.

The patriots will flame me for telling you, a 17 year old, these things. You are old enough to know about sex, but not about moral values? I think you need to ask the ultimate question anyone must ask themselves: How to be in the world.

So I'm planning on joining the military until I'm done with my schooling, then I'm getting out as soon as possible. I support our military but I think its really changed over the past couple of years. I don't want to choose the military as a job cause they don't get paid nearly as much as I think they should, you pay is based on Congress and what they agree on, and at any day you could be kicked out for something that's stupid and probably a lie (personal experience wit that one).

It saddens me and the rest of the world that salary is your main concern.

You also need to ask yourself why it is that you 'support the military'. You can be a rapist in the usa or an axe murderer, and that people would claim is sad and they might put you in the electric chair. But what you CANNOT do is say 'I do not support the military'. This will get you attacked by everyone.

It is a knee-jerk position and a deep indoctrination. So please become aware of the fact that as a military brat you have been indoctrinated by military lifestyle from birth.

I also think it has not changed much in the recent years. I think the US military keeps doing what it always did, be used for corporate power and the expansion of US based economics.

"I spent thirty-three years and four months in active service in the country's most agile military force, the Marines. I served in all ranks from second lieutenant to major general. And during that period I spent most of my time being a high-class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

"I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all members of the military profession I never had an original thought until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of the higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service

"During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. I was rewarded with honors, medals, and promotion. Looking back on it, I feel that I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate a racket in three city districts. The Marines operated on three continents."
-— Maj. Gen. Smedley Butler

So please, think very carefully about how to be in the world. Part of the problem or the solution. You will do the world a favor by not joining your military.

It might be better to give up on your dream than that you become part of a system that for over a hundred years have attacked the world killing tens of millions of people, that is the legacy you join. For is your dream to get some education more important than the lives of people killed by american aggression?

And fuck all patriots.
 

TimeAsylums

Prolific Member
Local time
Yesterday 10:33 PM
Joined
May 9, 2013
Messages
3,127
---
The patriots will flame me for telling you, a 17 year old, these things. You are old enough to know about sex, but not about moral values? I think you need to ask the ultimate question anyone must ask themselves: How to be in the world.

And fuck all patriots.

^^^I doubt that even 1% of INTPFeans even identify as "patriots"
 

Flawed_Ravvn

Active Member
Local time
Today 5:33 AM
Joined
Apr 11, 2014
Messages
112
---
@Variform- you do make some interesting points. I've never thought about half of that stuff, but one thing that I wanna point out to you is that I live in America, my dad is in the military and so are quite a few members in my family, past and present and most likely in the future too, so being patriotic is something that's been bred into me. You comments have made me think that what if everything that's been told to me is a big lie and I really don't know anything about the military and how they operate? My dad has told me more then once that he hates how the military works these days, we get into many debates and discussions about it. That and Politics, like Obama and such. I do think that being patriotic is important because those men and women died for your freedom, many of my family members have, I've been to many military funerals and it can be very said to see the soldiers family crying. Some of them lose both parents and the children are forced to grow up without them. Freedom truly isn't free, that's something that I believe whole heartedly. But you are free to believe whatever you want.

Salary is pretty is pretty important to me because I want to be able to provide for my future family and to be able to do some pretty cool stuff as well, that takes money. As I've mentioned before, military members don't get paid very much, there are 7 members in my family so we are living pay check to pay check ( at least that's what it feels like). I don't want that to be the case for my family, I've seen the amount of stress it causes my family and parents and I don't want that. So my solution is to get a job that pays a good amount which happens to be a sports physician. But I do agree that money isn't everything, it should not be a persons driving force in life, but I also think it shouldn't be a concern to people as well ( even though it practically is for almost every American).
 

Cherry Cola

Banned
Local time
Today 5:33 AM
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
3,899
---
Location
stockholm
Why was it important to be patriotic again? It seems to me that all you did was mention some of the sad consequences of war, ie people dying. Patriotism urges war, hence it causes those deaths which you claim are the reason why patriotism is important.

And let's not forget the deaths of those people who weren't patriots but were drafted and forced to go to war because of the patriotic culture, nor those people who joined because they had no money.

Patriotism in a sense, except it does consume bystanders as well:

ouroboros.jpg


And yeah it is very sad everytime a child has to grow up missing a parent, everytime a family member is lost forever. You are quite right in saying so, but such events should not be used to form an argument playing on human emotions in order to support what caused these deaths to begin with. Not saying that patriotism caused all wars, but the way its ingrained into American culture has certainly allowed the US to mobilize its army on plenty of occasions were it would not have been possible elsewise.

Furthermore, arguments relying on emotion frequently come up whenever patriotism is involved. It's ours against theirs or them: you're either with us or against us, you serve or you betray. Back when people were protesting against the invasion of Iraq you'd see this all the time: "What do you think our troops that are out there fighting for us, putting their own lives at risk would feel about what you just said?!" and the like. Patriotism goes unquestioned because patriots so love their country, and so sacrifice themselves and so like to point that out so as to not need to defend their views and actions rationally.

Edit: I used to think the Radiohead song We Suck Young Blood was about army draftsmen but apparently it was about Hollywood. Makes less sense, stupid Radiohead.
 

Flawed_Ravvn

Active Member
Local time
Today 5:33 AM
Joined
Apr 11, 2014
Messages
112
---
@Cherry Cola- that is true, now that I think about it, using emotions would probably not be a good argument mainly cause you can't argue emotions. All that I can say is that I support the troops even though I would probably never join them in combat. I think patriotism is important because you do live in the country, right? so why not support it? True, it is unfair that many soldiers are forced to go to war, but that was mainly during WWI and WWII. Today, if a soldier goes to war then it's because he joined the military. Once you join you are basically giving them the authorization to send you to war whether you like it or not. There are some jobs that have higher possibility of you being sent to war then others, like a pilot or a nurse.
 

Red myst

Abstract Utilitiarian
Local time
Yesterday 11:33 PM
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Messages
378
---
Location
Southern United States
Nothing wrong with being a patriot. It is a part of human nature and it is similar to family loyalty, but on a national level. It is what circles the wagons when under threats, and pulls us together in times of crisis. The problem is that sometimes this part of human nature can be hijacked. Just like blind faith, it is subject to human manipulation.
I am sure where ever in the world tensions boil over, people will become more patriotic to their particular countries.
In regards to America as an imperialist nation, I wonder many nations would be concerned of we turn to more isolationist approach? Just saying....

Personally, I just wish we could just all consider ourselves Citizens Of The World. Bit that's not gonna happen in my life time.
 

Cherry Cola

Banned
Local time
Today 5:33 AM
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
3,899
---
Location
stockholm
@Cherry Cola- that is true, now that I think about it, using emotions would probably not be a good argument mainly cause you can't argue emotions. All that I can say is that I support the troops even though I would probably never join them in combat. I think patriotism is important because you do live in the country, right? so why not support it? True, it is unfair that many soldiers are forced to go to war, but that was mainly during WWI and WWII. Today, if a soldier goes to war then it's because he joined the military. Once you join you are basically giving them the authorization to send you to war whether you like it or not. There are some jobs that have higher possibility of you being sent to war then others, like a pilot or a nurse.

Look, you seem like a nice person who's willing to listen to stuff even if it goes against your own views, so I hope I don't sound too aggressive in my posts or so, you have to remember I live in peace loving socialist haven Sweden ^^

In any case I must disagree, if patriotism gets your countrymen killed why support it, sure the word and its meaning may sound good on paper but if the consequences are dead bodies? Furthermore, what about the people in the other countries? They die too.

From a moral standpoint patriotism (like any form of nationalism) seems very dated to me. There are the same human beings in every country, cultures may wary but people deserve the same right and respect regardless of what country they are from. There's a view inherent in patriotism that the people of ones own country come before those of another in the end, and that's undeniable, yet makes little sense.
 

Latte

Preferably Not Redundant
Local time
Today 6:33 AM
Joined
Oct 15, 2010
Messages
843
---
Location
Where do you live?
But what does it mean to support a country?

If it is to support the best interests of the populace, the question of whether one supports a particular international endeavor lies in whether one believes it is in the best interest of the populace.
In we use that definition, the anti-war movement at the time of the Vietnam war, and the segment of soldiers willingly being involved were largely patriotic, but based on different perceptions of what was good for the country.
Similarly, we see cases like the Snowden case where some people think it is patriotic, because they view the whistleblowing as being in the best interest of Americans, whilst others view it as being betrayal, a traitorous act, because they see it as being against the best interest of Americans.

For most people, if they ask themselves, supporting one's country is not truly synonymous with supporting the policy of the government in power. It is about what is best for the "us" that live there.

Even Anders Behring Breivik is a patriot in a sense.
 

Cherry Cola

Banned
Local time
Today 5:33 AM
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
3,899
---
Location
stockholm
The US being the biggest baddest motherfucker let's its population effectively believe that they are on a god-granted quest to save the world, but that naturally means saving themselves first and foremost. This is not typically stated explicitly, but it is; nonetheless, still there in the minds (and hearts: for the sake of patriot rhetoric) of most US patriots to some degree. Of course that's grandiose bull; however, it does serve a purpose in letting people call themselves patriots while still being in it for the best of all people across the globe.
 

Flawed_Ravvn

Active Member
Local time
Today 5:33 AM
Joined
Apr 11, 2014
Messages
112
---
@ Cherry Cola- its good to disagree on stuff, I do like hearing other peoples opinion on stuff. I didn't know that you were from Sweden, which is pretty cool by the way.

If your not patriotic to your country and don't support it, they why live there? Better yet, why call yourself a citizen of that country of you don't support it?

Also, just out of curiosity, what do you think of us Americans?

@Latte- you do have a good point, what is supporting your country? I do think that people have different forms of patriotism. In todays society, patriotism is supporting the troops while they fight and such, but what if that's not entirely true? I have been thinking about that. And how can you truly support your country when you haven't been to other countries and see how they run? I hear people say that they think America is the best country and in some ways that's true, but then I ask them have you ever been to another country and lived there? Their reply is usually no, so I'm thinking how can you truly know that this country is the best country?
 

Cherry Cola

Banned
Local time
Today 5:33 AM
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
3,899
---
Location
stockholm
Well basically Sweden is pretty rich and things are good here; where would I move and why should I? Isn't working supporting ones country? I think it is and so I do. For practical reasons I have to call myself Swedish, sometimes it is a necessary formality, other times its helps people put you into a perspective, like now for instance. In the US I'd belong far to the left, but in Sweden I'm in the middle. Now if you were to go online and write on a Swedish forum in Swedish (wont happen because Swedish isn't an international language but hey illustrative theoretical scenario) and people thought you were a Swede, well if the discussion was politics they would probably think you were a right wing nut :P
 

Flawed_Ravvn

Active Member
Local time
Today 5:33 AM
Joined
Apr 11, 2014
Messages
112
---
@Cherry Cola-working would be supporting your country economically, therefore when your country goes to war you would be helping your country cause you would be helping to produce the necessary materials to go to war. So, yes I agree with you on that one. Every day at school we say the Pledge of Allegiance, there are kids in my class who don't say the Pledge of Allegiance because it says "under god". Now to me, patriotism would be to say that even if it goes against your religion because that's what America was founded on, freedom of religion. Also, the troops that you send to war, die because they are defending your freedom. Imagine if they didn't and your freedom was taken away from you? Imagine if we didn't keep other countries in check like Iraq, China, Afghanistan, and North Korea. In my mind, I think the world would be in complete chaos. There leaders are pretty crazy when it comes to ideas of how to run a country. In my mind, when a country goes to war they are defending their way of life, for the US, its our way of freedom. For Sweden, it could be something completely different.
 

Latte

Preferably Not Redundant
Local time
Today 6:33 AM
Joined
Oct 15, 2010
Messages
843
---
Location
Where do you live?
Doesn't that assume a lot about the decision making process that leads to war?

Do leaders and the media only hit the drums of war when the way of life of their population is threatened? If it were so, I think we'd see a lot less war in the world.

In regards to the pledge of allegiance being used nowadays that includes "under god", isn't including that against the idea of a secular society with freedom of religion? It is making people submit to a specific religion, which necessarily means at the expense of others. People having to be blasphemous to their own religion to say the pledge of allegiance. Imagine for instance, if it was not "under god", but "under Allah" or "Under Thor". Atheists probably also are not comfortable with showing support for something they don't believe in, as they are showing support not only for a way of viewing the world, but also a way of living life that they do not agree with.
Wouldn't it be better if they removed "under god" again from the pledge of allegiance, and made it purely about inspiring a spirit of fellowship and being in it together in the country rather than also about submitting to the deity of a specific religion?

If you knew more about the leadership in Iraq, China, Afghanistan, North Korea and the United States of America, you would maybe have a different perspective on whether it is a good idea for the average american to threaten, go to war against, and try to isolate them. If you knew about their people and their thoughts and wants, you might not see them as threatening the way of life of the common american.

A very common error one often makes when growing up is thinking that the political elite have the reasons they say they do for doing what they do. One sees many people in other countries making this error about their own leadership, those people thinking their leadership is watching out for their interest, almost like a parent of sorts. And from an outside perspective, one notices this is wrong. One knows that loads of people in North Korea adores and are fiercely loyal to their ruling dynasty, but from the outside one can see that the rhetoric of the dynasty and their actions aren't truly coherent when put under the microscope. That this dynasty is abusing their power for their own ends, even if they claim it is for the people.

It is much less uncomfortable and much easier to see such things from an outside perspective. One wants to feel safe and that one is being taken care of, in one's own country. That the people in charge are looking out for one's interests. Because the alternative can be very very frightening and hard to live with.
 

Cherry Cola

Banned
Local time
Today 5:33 AM
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
3,899
---
Location
stockholm
@Cherry Cola-working would be supporting your country economically, therefore when your country goes to war you would be helping your country cause you would be helping to produce the necessary materials to go to war. So, yes I agree with you on that one. Every day at school we say the Pledge of Allegiance, there are kids in my class who don't say the Pledge of Allegiance because it says "under god". Now to me, patriotism would be to say that even if it goes against your religion because that's what America was founded on, freedom of religion. Also, the troops that you send to war, die because they are defending your freedom. Imagine if they didn't and your freedom was taken away from you? Imagine if we didn't keep other countries in check like Iraq, China, Afghanistan, and North Korea. In my mind, I think the world would be in complete chaos. There leaders are pretty crazy when it comes to ideas of how to run a country. In my mind, when a country goes to war they are defending their way of life, for the US, its our way of freedom. For Sweden, it could be something completely different.

What does keep in check entail precisely? The world would hardly be in chaos if the US hadn't invaded Iraq. China and USA rely on another economically, neither wanting the demise of the other. Afghanistan and North Korea can't do much to throw the world into chaos, they don't have the resources required. None of the countries have anything to gain from fucking with USA. You have to consider all the hatred and dislike garnered when the US wants to keep some country "in check". Everytime that happens there is more to be gained from fucking with USA.

Indeed one might say that USA is like a paranoid schizophrenic, imagining conspiracies and threats where there are none, until eventually people grow tired of this behavior and the conspiracies become reality.
 

Variform

Banned
Local time
Today 5:33 AM
Joined
Mar 11, 2014
Messages
809
---
@Variform- you do make some interesting points. I've never thought about half of that stuff, but one thing that I wanna point out to you is that I live in America, my dad is in the military and so are quite a few members in my family, past and present and most likely in the future too, so being patriotic is something that's been bred into me. You comments have made me think that what if everything that's been told to me is a big lie and I really don't know anything about the military and how they operate? My dad has told me more then once that he hates how the military works these days, we get into many debates and discussions about it.

That is very good, to have discussions. Over here we do not really have such military families much.
But a discussion with dad doesn't mean he has all the knowledge. The us military has always been abused, so it is not just that 'under Obama this or that'. Or under Clinton or Bush etc. It is a pervasive pattern of abuse rather than a contemporary misuse.

But you can check all that yourself, online. But you have to get away from mainstream media.

That and Politics, like Obama and such. I do think that being patriotic is important because those men and women died for your freedom

Well, that is pretty much the lie, isn't it? No one in Iraq or Afghanistan needed to die for you to be free, or any of your family. You were already free, for as much as that is possible.

, many of my family members have, I've been to many military funerals and it can be very said to see the soldiers family crying. Some of them lose both parents and the children are forced to grow up without them. Freedom truly isn't free, that's something that I believe whole heartedly. But you are free to believe whatever you want.

Freedom costs nothing. We are born free, because we can make decisions about who we are. And what we do. The question is, if you are willing to sacrifice your very life for freedom, freedom loses its worth. Think about it.

If an american soldier dies, he did not do so for freedom, to 'liberate' a nation under a dictatorship or some silly notion, but to expand american foreign interests, which are access to oil. Don't forget that e.g. Saddam Hussein was america's Best Buddy when he fought Iran, but when he started to go his own way, then he ebcame a problem. As Dondald Rumsfeld said, Iraq, floats on a sea of oil, you know what I mean.

How are you or your family more free because hundreds of thousands of children died by the sanctions imposed on Iraq causing lack of medicine? yes, Saddam attacked Kuweit because he said it was an Iraqi provence. No one considered it, but he was right. It is just that Western imperialists at the time took that land from Iraq, drew a line on a map and installed a local hot shot as leader.

Never believe the lie that the us military is used to liberate and install freedom. It is just the opposite: it is used to attack anyone that doesn't do what the usa wants. American soldiers die for corporate greed.


Salary is pretty is pretty important to me because I want to be able to provide for my future family and to be able to do some pretty cool stuff as well, that takes money.

That is precisely the issue. You join the military, you join a tool for corporate power to expand its power and influence, in doing so insure that american families get access to all the junk the want to buy in the shopping malls. All that stuff is made using energy, usually oil and raw materials. Those are traded for in dollars, on open markets. The army is used to open up markets by installing a puppet dictator in some defenseless country that will have open arms to american style economics.

So if you join the military, you not only do so to buy shopping mall junk (or traveling or whatever dream you have) using your salary, but also invest in the future for yourself and family-to-come as the expense of some poor bastard in another third world country.

I'd say, break the tradition, give the world a breather and find self-worth and self-respect by maybe having a less paying job, but help to save lives outside the border.


As I've mentioned before, military members don't get paid very much, there are 7 members in my family so we are living pay check to pay check

Yes, the military people are told they fight for resounding ideals yet are paid little. When soldiers were in Iraq, back in San Diego their wives struggled to survive. But the shareholders of Halliburton did pretty well. Dick Cheney, right? Food stamps for soldiers' wives while they died elsewhere so Dick Cheney has a bigger bank account.

Great! A military family tradition! Everyone praises you for standing up for the right values, but when push comes to shove, you are just dying poor.

( at least that's what it feels like). I don't want that to be the case for my family, I've seen the amount of stress it causes my family and parents and I don't want that. So my solution is to get a job that pays a good amount which happens to be a sports physician. But I do agree that money isn't everything, it should not be a persons driving force in life, but I also think it shouldn't be a concern to people as well ( even though it practically is for almost every American).

Well, I hope you get what you believe you deserve! Never been into sports much, though I did like to play tennis. Not in a club or anything. Just on the free courts that you find here and there around the city.
 

Variform

Banned
Local time
Today 5:33 AM
Joined
Mar 11, 2014
Messages
809
---
Edit: I used to think the Radiohead song We Suck Young Blood was about army draftsmen but apparently it was about Hollywood. Makes less sense, stupid Radiohead.

I actually collect quotes on patriotism.


"One of the great attractions of patriotism -- it fulfills our worst wishes. In the person of our nation we are able, vicariously, to bully and cheat. Bully and cheat, what's more, with a feeling that we are profoundly virtuous."
-- Aldous Huxley

What you talkied about is this:

"Perhaps we don't demand accountability anymore because we're afraid of being labeled unpatriotic for not supporting the troops or our war leaders
*who keep promising they're close to winning what appears to be an unwinnable war."
-- David H. Hackworth

"The point of public relations slogans like "Support our troops" is that they don't mean anything... That's the whole point of good propaganda. You want to create a slogan that nobody's going to be against, and everybody's going to be for. Nobody knows what it means, because it doesn't mean anything. Its crucial value is that it diverts your attention from a question that does mean something: Do you support our policy? That's the one you're not allowed to talk about."
-- Noam Chomsky
 

Happy

sorry for english
Local time
Today 4:33 PM
Joined
Apr 26, 2013
Messages
1,336
---
Location
Yes
I looked at your location (Puyallup, WA) on your post in another thread and I was genuinely convinced that you lived in outback Western Australia...
 

Variform

Banned
Local time
Today 5:33 AM
Joined
Mar 11, 2014
Messages
809
---
Nothing wrong with being a patriot. It is a part of human nature and it is similar to family loyalty, but on a national level. It is what circles the wagons when under threats, and pulls us together in times of crisis. The problem is that sometimes this part of human nature can be hijacked. Just like blind faith, it is subject to human manipulation.
I am sure where ever in the world tensions boil over, people will become more patriotic to their particular countries.
In regards to America as an imperialist nation, I wonder many nations would be concerned of we turn to more isolationist approach? Just saying....

Personally, I just wish we could just all consider ourselves Citizens Of The World. Bit that's not gonna happen in my life time.

To summarize you:

"Patriotism itself - love of one's country and one's people - is a natural and reasonable human feeling. But patriotism which measures one's country by military superiority over all rivals regardless of consequence is irrational... There is surely a more rational form of patriotism that searches for excellence in social, economic and moral spheres rather than in weapon systems."
-- Thomas Bodenheimer and Robert Gould

I think the world will be better of if american policies would perhaps reflect more what Ron Paul is saying. The american people are blind and willing participants in empire. Both formal, through the military, as well as informal, through the spreading of its culture.

America's days are pretty much over. It is losing its cold war grip. The evil communist bogymen is now replaced with global terrorism, of which I never saw any proof that it exists. The NSA is attacking all the world. Inf act, I regard what it does as an act of war against sovereign nations.

The question is what america will do once it starts sliding. Will the people hysterically attack the world again in patriotic fervor like happened after 11-9-01? And burn some more Indigo Girls cd's perhaps.

Or will it finally learn how to be a democracy with a working party system. It always amazes me how americans can be so prone to Newspeak. It was always considered that in the USSR you had only one party you could 'vote' for. And yet despite the fact that the usa has more than 50 different parties, only two of them get substantial votes. And you can choose between american empire style military spending and american style military spending.
 

Variform

Banned
Local time
Today 5:33 AM
Joined
Mar 11, 2014
Messages
809
---
@Cherry Cola-working would be supporting your country economically, therefore when your country goes to war you would be helping your country cause you would be helping to produce the necessary materials to go to war. So, yes I agree with you on that one. Every day at school we say the Pledge of Allegiance, there are kids in my class who don't say the Pledge of Allegiance because it says "under god".

What?!? Every day?!? But that is disgusting?!? :mad: My god! The indoctrination!?! The propaganda!! How is that tolerable! That is just the same as what they do in Iran in some schools. Put an Israeli flag on the ground by the door, so all children must trample on the Israeli flag!

Whether you trample on another's flag or elevate your own into heaven itself is the same thing.

And not to mention the god aspect of it. You are connecting love for ones own country to god the creator so when you kill someone else oversees you do so for a place in heaven. Not that god exists...as an INTP growing up and growing and maturing you will soon find that out.


Now to me, patriotism would be to say that even if it goes against your religion because that's what America was founded on, freedom of religion.

I smile here as I write, but do you know, from a European persecutive, how weird that is? No Dutch or Swedish person ever, EVER, falls back on their constitution or ideals. Did you know that the USA had the first constitution in the world? But that the Dutch came second? And that the Dutch were the first to recognize the american nation? And yet, americans keep yapping about their Holy Constitution as if it were a bible, doing school projects on it and speeches and lectures and study the 'Founding Fathers' (just the association with father brings up my eyebrows - a father, a protector, a strong man, supporter of his family, such notions). And keep talking about it when they dissent with the government. What did the Founding Fathers say, what did they mean?

As if that has relevance to today's world. There is this american tendency to look back on those days with hope and longing.

When Obama came to The Netherlands recently, they brought out the Dutch constitution which is held in some archive, probbaly well protected with atmosphere control. But it is NEVER on display.

Most Dutch people do not know their rights if it they were hit in the face by them. I do not know them, apart from the usual freedom of speech, assembly, religion. I don't know what article one is without going wikipedia.

Interesting difference. I don't own a Dutch flag. I have a little Swiss flag that I got as a child on vacation :-) I also, believe it or not, have the flag of Alaska!

Actually, when you were born, it is possible I flew over your state or stayed in Seattle for a night :-)


Also, the troops that you send to war, die because they are defending your freedom. Imagine if they didn't and your freedom was taken away from you? Imagine if we didn't keep other countries in check like Iraq, China, Afghanistan, and North Korea.

But none of those countries ever posed a threat to the american citizens. Iraq was invaded because Saddam Hussein didn't act as a puppet for american interests. Someone had to be blamed for what happened when you were 4 years old.
Afghanistan was attacked because it harbored and trained terrorists, since no one liked Taliban, no one cared. But in fact, there the issue was major pipelines through the country.

China is your biggest trade partner. Why would China attack america? What a costly entreprise and the whole world would respond unkindly. They rather sell you the junk you buy in the mall!

Besides that, they own your country. America has so much debt and China bought a lot of it up. If anything, it is america that would attack China because when China sends the debt collector, you go bankrupt.

North Korea is no threat. An isolated country with a starving population that is totally under control of a dictator and who are watched very closely. They are kept at bay and not even China seems really interested anymore in dealing with them.

Lose the propaganda now your mind is still young and able! Or hang around here. :-) You'll wisen up to the world pretty quick.

In my mind, I think the world would be in complete chaos. There leaders are pretty crazy when it comes to ideas of how to run a country. In my mind, when a country goes to war they are defending their way of life, for the US, its our way of freedom. For Sweden, it could be something completely different.

No, america has pretty much the 20th century monopoly on crazy.

I think that if no person would willingly or unwillingly join any military, the nations would have no way of attacking other nations. And so all would be safe. Your way of life sucks. Not that we do much better.


“The de facto censorship which leaves so many Americans functionally illiterate about the history of US foreign affairs may be all the more effective because it is not official, heavy-handed or conspiratorial, but woven artlessly into the fabric of education and media. No conspiracy is needed.”
-- William Blum

Now that is why it is insufferable to Pledge the Allegiance.

If you refuse, but not because you do not believe in god, what will happen? What will your fellow students say or the teachers?
 

Cherry Cola

Banned
Local time
Today 5:33 AM
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
3,899
---
Location
stockholm
<3 that Chomsky quote.

Infanticide is part of human nature too, as is rape, as is murder and cannibalism, it is similar to family loyalty, you do what you gotta do to keep your family alive : - )

Truth to be told nationalism in any form is less natural than infanticide, it uses concepts and emotions meant to work effectively for people in small tribes and applies these to millions and millions. Sure experiencing national pride is a natural thing to do, but when you consider what those feelings are for there's nothing natural about it. A hatchling chicken thinking the human who watched it crawl out of its egg is its mother does so "naturally", but the human is not its natural mother.
 

Flawed_Ravvn

Active Member
Local time
Today 5:33 AM
Joined
Apr 11, 2014
Messages
112
---
And to think this all stemmed from me introducing myself and saying I was a military brat.

@Valiform- I wasn't born in Seattle, you have to remember I'm a military brat, I've only lived here for about 4 years now. I was actually born in England. My dad was stationed there after he lived in Vegas for I think a year. After England, we lived in Florida for awhile but we moved around a lot. The school that I'm attending to right now is my 10th school.

All that your saying is making me think a little. All that I know about patriotism is what my dad and my other members of my family told me. I do support our troops though, that will never change, they are our line of defense and many of my family members are in that line of defense.

And I would have to disagree with you on freedom costs nothing, true I was born free because of my dads service to the military, but back during the Revolutionary War when we were fighting Great Britain for our freedom, then yes freedom costs lives. If that Revolutionary War didn't happen, we could quite possibly still be under Great Britain's rule instead of being allies with them like we are now.

I do agree that America is falling, we are in debt and we are practically split when it comes to politics. When the Obama and Romney Election was going on, at the end they were really neck and neck. After Obama was elected there were people saying that another Civil War could break out because of this election. I also believed it too. Obama wanted to get rid of guns when its a constitutional right to have guns, there was much disagreement and fighting going on about that. Obamacare is another one, Obama is practically shoving something down Americans throats that we do not want. That's sparked up much fighting and arguments. It will be interesting what America will do once we realize that we are falling as a nation. In all honesty I think Russia will take us over, either that or China. True, are trading partners with them and we do own them some money, but once you take over a country, you basically own them. If this does happen, I'm hoping it doesn't happen during my life time.

@Variform- I'm saying this right now, America is screwed up! And I mean big time. This is allowed because America is so concentrated on fulfilling other peoples religions and way of life. This also goes back to the first Amendment, freedom of speech and religion. This is what makes me mad about this country. In my school we are not allowed to say Merry Christmas, Happy Easter, or anything that involves religion in an effort to not offend the Muslims at my school, which only accommodate about 2% of the schools population. Most of the people, including me, are Christians, and yet we are not allowed to celebrate are holidays all because some atheist are Muslim will get offended. Teachers are not even allowed to mentions God in their discussions. For a country founded on religion, we are certainly failing away from it. This is why I think we should close the borders, we need to stop letting other people in because its getting out of control. We have to print directions in 20 different languages because English isn't the Americas set language. We don't have a set language and there's much debate about that too. The topic on Gays and Lesbians is a very debatable topic here too. And its allowed at my school too, I see gay and lesbian couples make out in the hallways all the time, and to be completely honest with you its disgusting. Any type of making out in the hallway, whether it be my a normal couple or a gay or lesbian couple is disgusting.
 

Jennywocky

Creepy Clown Chick
Local time
Today 12:33 AM
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
10,739
---
Location
Charn
I don't think hets or gays should be making out in the hallways either. School is not the place for that.

As far as the rest, I think the United States has a lot of issues, but I see the hardcore Christians as being part of the problem, not the victims of it. And that's being said from the perspective of someone who grew up in conservative church, was actively involved in leadership in my church, and voted Republican until 2004 or so. These are the people who were in control of the system for many many years and exploiting their majority in the culture with little regard for minorities; and now that the pendulum has swung the other way, they are perceiving themselves as victims and vociferously trying to position themselves as such.
 

Flawed_Ravvn

Active Member
Local time
Today 5:33 AM
Joined
Apr 11, 2014
Messages
112
---
@Jennywocky: Its not just Christians that are being part of the problem, I think its every religion sect there is. People expect for the world to be a perfect place. It practically ingrained in us that if we don't like something, they do everything you can till it's changed. I think Americans and even other people around world need to realize that not everyone is going to be happy with the way the country is going. I think Americans need to just put up with some stuff instead of trying so desperately to change the way the country is ran for there own wants and desires. There are things about America that I don't agree with, but you don't see me marching up to the white house demanding they change everything that I want.
 

Cherry Cola

Banned
Local time
Today 5:33 AM
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
3,899
---
Location
stockholm
Variform has a big point about the constitution. No Dutch or Swede would ever defend something solely by tradition, or well a few would but they wouldn't be very convincing. If America wants to move ahead it needs to stop compensating for its lack of a history by treating the history it has as if it were a passage from the bible, a divine mythos of sorts. Who gives a fuck whether bearing arms is a constitutional right or not? Plenty of people do, and that's the problem. That's not to say that you shouldn't be allowed to bear arms, just that whether its supported in a paper written a long time ago or not doesn't really matter if you look at it logically.

ChuTzUU.jpg


GFTtlip.png
 
Local time
Today 5:33 AM
Joined
Jun 25, 2013
Messages
1,820
---
i really feel for you wrestler girl. i don't mean this as an insult but to a european you do sound quite indoctrinated.

it can be very difficult even for adults outside america to get perspective on the topics raised in this thread, much less a 17 year old raised within america and in a military family. plus it must be quite frightening to risk alienating your whole family should your own perspective on these issues change.

i urge you to please take some time to seek out more opinions which differ from your own and those of your family before commiting yourself to military service. this thread has some excellent posts - follow up on the nets.

and remember - rejecting patriotism and all it entails does not mean that you can no longer have profound respect for the courage and bravery of individual military personnel.

good luck.
 
Top Bottom