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Need some advice from other INTPs

rainman312

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So, here's the story:
I'm a strong INTP (at least 93% for all four functions), and I live with a family of almost entirely ESFJs. I'm 16 years old, so I can't move out, and I don't have a car either. The only non-ESFJ is my father, who is an ESTJ. As you can likely imagine, this can be frustrating at times. I'm currently going through some difficult times with my mother, mostly due to my grades. I do rather poorly in school, though not due to lack of intelligence or ability to understand the material. In fact, I'd say I'm one of the smartest people in the school, and not to be cocky, either. However, I'm absolutely terrible when it comes to getting homework completed. I've tried so many things, but I always wander off due to a lack of interest and go play piano or read one of my books. I'm also under constant pressure from my mother to socialize more, and to be more athletic, which is hell. I've tried explaining to her that I'm not a psychopath, but in fact, just don't enjoy listening to people ramble on about their lives and then get upset and ask me "What's wrong?", when I don't respond to them. And when it comes to sports, they're simply too boring, too social, and too useless for me to play one. Anyway, I'm wondering if any of you have gone through similar things and perhaps have some advice as to how to deal with such problems. Thanks.
 

TBerg

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Find a quiet special place to do your homework where you can limit both negative and positive distractions. Do whatever it takes to shove that crap down your own throat. You'll be glad you did. It builds character and gives you options in life. You will even start to enjoy some of it.

And people talk about mundane stuff to keep from feeling lonely. Most people can join together on mundane stuff. Your ability to understand these things will give you power.
 

Seteleechete

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Avoid confrontation with your family as much as you can. Get the homework done. Personal opinion, some might disagree with the avoiding part. Also try to find a career goal, things are easier if you have a goal to focus on (something that interests you). Picking up something like programming could work well.
 

onesteptwostep

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Make a habit of doing your homework because not doing them will impact your college life as well. Like do it where there aren't distractions. Somewhere quiet in the living room, library and so on. I find that doing homework in my own room is.. too distracting. I can't resist the temptations of infotainment, as amusing as that may sound.

On being athletic, if you have an interest, motivation and time for it, try joining a cross country club or some type of field track activity. It's less socially engaging and a lot of it is about analysis of your physical/mental condition. Plus it's just good to kill off the mind and enjoy a run.

I think if you do something in regards to these things your relationship with your parents would improve naturally.
 

TheManBeyond

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That sounds a lot like me when i was younger. I think telling you to do your homework is like playing your mom. Avoid confrontation and try to fake that you are doing your homework instead. Time will make you actually do it.
 

Brontosaurie

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you might wanna get them to understand that motivation deficiency is as real as intelligence deficiency - before chronic phobia of decisions, success, approval and consensus settles in and cripples your personal development for life.
 

Seteleechete

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No, do not try and do that. Either have a psychologist explain that to them or do not confront them in that manner. I do not see them listening to you.
 

Jennywocky

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No, do not try and do that. Either have a psychologist explain that to them or do not confront them in that manner. I do not see them listening to you.

yeah, my impression is they'll just see it as making excuses for one's own personal laziness and one just needs to try harder and make an effort... although if an acceptable authority tells them the same thing, maybe they'll be more open.
 

Architect

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So, here's the story:
I'm a strong INTP (at least 93% for all four functions)

Actually if you were 93% on all four functions then you wouldn't be an INTP. And are you sure it's not 95%, or 94%?

Anyhow just giving you a hard time. Yes I grew up in a ESTJ/ESFP family too and have written about it here, so do a search.

You need to pull together your grades so you can get out and be independent. Many downsides to growing up in an incompatible family, but there's a flip side to it, which is it made me a fighter. Throws people here off too, "doh, your'e not lazy??". Well I had to fight to get what I needed, and to get away and successfully on my own.
 

Rook

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Honestly, ignore your parents and their problems with you.
They may be your biological origin, but we humans always have the capacity to do as we wish within our lives.

Homework? I had the same problem at 16, 17 and 18...in the end it's up to you.
Do you want to conform to the established system of education enforced by an external party, thus gaining good grades which will improve your chances for tertiary education and giving you more power and survivability within the society?
If so, then do your homework.

Otherwise, you can simply choose to not give a shit, end school with a passing grade and deprive the system of the communal benefit of your intelligence, finding other ways to earn a living.

In the end, it's mostly a choice between fitting into society and being rewarded for it, or going it alone and choosing to bypass third party restrictions, which is a much harder path to walk when one is not sufficiently rich.
 

Architect

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In the end, it's mostly a choice between fitting into society and being rewarded for it, or going it alone and choosing to bypass third party restrictions, which is a much harder path to walk when one is not sufficiently rich.

No you miss a third solution, which is to do both. Blend in and get the rewards, and also still keep your freedom. There's where the Gold medal is.
 

Rook

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No you miss a third solution, which is to do both. Blend in and get the rewards, and also still keep your freedom. There's where the Gold medal is.

The third solution is simply the second solution done at a later stage while following the initial solution for a longer duration.
After some time, when sufficient resources and power have been gained from external parties, one may deviate in a more acceptable and non-conflicting fashion.

Now of course we can start arguing over this, but my solutions are just a quick generalization of what I perceive a student's main options to be within the common capitalistic societal framework .
In actual practice, the choices and paths are more intertwined and complex.
 

Bock

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Try to learn how to deal with the external world (in a constructive/non-destructive way) now instead of having to do it later on when it's much harder (entrenched perception patterns/behavioural patterns, higher expectations that comes with age and so on).

Change is so much easier when you're young. I almost managed to not become a broken recluse but eventually i just ended up in some sort of depressed paralyzed state and here i am in my mid twenties, trying to scramble together basic human functionality.

Never had much in common with most of my family either. It's hard to give any advice on that matter without more information, though - Minimize intrusion, get them to understand and respect your borders (potentially easier said than done but...) and focus on your own future, both "where you want to go" and "where you have to go" (don't fuck up school).

Some physical exercise here and there might (slightly) help with the motivation and discipline issues etc. Socializing can be pretty damn nice in the right contexts, don't ignore that part or you might end up with a clusterfuck of physical/mental/economic issues and so on ad infinitum.
 

Brontosaurie

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No, do not try and do that. Either have a psychologist explain that to them or do not confront them in that manner. I do not see them listening to you.

it'll probably have to be through a psychologist, yes.
 

rainman312

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Actually if you were 93% on all four functions then you wouldn't be an INTP. And are you sure it's not 95%, or 94%?

Sorry, I meant all four "letters" are 93% or above, not functions, i.e.
I-94%
N-98%
T-93%
P-94%
 

rainman312

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you might wanna get them to understand that motivation deficiency is as real as intelligence deficiency - before chronic phobia of decisions, success, approval and consensus settles in and cripples your personal development for life.

I've tried telling them this many times. It usually ends with them screaming at me to "just do my fucking homework, it isn't that hard". I've talked with a psychologist one time, and she gave me some useful tips, and took away my diagnosis of ADHD (inattentive type), which was a double-edged sword. On one hand, I no longer have to take methylphenidate, which made me feel like shit and murdered my creativity, but on the other hand, it meant I no longer had a medical explanation for my "slacking off", at least in the eyes of my parents.
 

Brontosaurie

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I've tried telling them this many times. It usually ends with them screaming at me to "just do my fucking homework, it isn't that hard". I've talked with a psychologist one time, and she gave me some useful tips, and took away my diagnosis of ADHD (inattentive type), which was a double-edged sword. On one hand, I no longer have to take methylphenidate, which made me feel like shit and murdered my creativity, but on the other hand, it meant I no longer had a medical explanation for my "slacking off", at least in the eyes of my parents.

"just do your fucking child-rearing and take responsibility for the consequences of your sexual decisions, it isn't that hard"

?

you're still young. such a retort wouldn't even be pathetic. question their decision of having a child. be a pain in the ass. quote experts regarding communication, rapport, motivation and mental health. blame them relentlessly as much as you've got the energy for. make clear that the choice is between them showing a modicum of understanding/decency, and your righteous nagging.

hehe i wish i'd done this myself more consistently rather than in bouts of anger.
 

Seteleechete

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That is like the picture opposite of avoiding confrontation. Xd If a psychologist told them you are fine, no amount of arguing or quoting is about to convince them. I would focus less on your parents and more on fixing your motivational issues. I still say finding an interest(that can transit into a career) and focusing on it is your best bet, it acts as a stepping stone once you have a goal doing things like homework become sub-goals to achieve it. Or you can make the goal something like; becoming independent of your parents and then take steps to achieve that. The homework is stupid for its own sake don't argue why you need to do it, argue what you will get for doing it.(your own apartment where you can read and play piano all day long while doing some job to support that, if you can find no career based interest.)
 

Brontosaurie

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maybe i'm projecting the pissed-offness that came from my own upbringing rather than being constructive. sorry.

it's likely that minding your own business is best.
 

Yellow

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Unfortunately, you would do well to adopt a "work first" mindset in order to get along with them, and really, to be successful in general. This means that you get your obligations and responsibilities out of the way, and then you dink around and do whatever.

The only downside being: once you've made the first change, they'll be encouraged to nag you to make the other changes.

I made a habit of not being home once I was allowed out of the house unsupervised. I would say that I was going out to meet friends (or say that I was going to school or work or whatever they'd believe) and I'd go to a mall or a park or somewhere completely new. I'd ride the train and walk to some random place, get high, and see if I could go the whole time without having to speak (except to order coffee, of course). I'd have a book, headphones, a couple bucks, and I'd just make a day of it. Usually, at least 75% of that day involved sitting in a new-found reading nook.

It got me out of the house and made me appear to be a normal teenager.
 

TBerg

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Bronto's a rebel. I was too. It is hard to tell if your parents are bastards or the bastard is you. I just know that from my experience, the more you can find a way to do well in your surroundings and follow the crowd until you get some of your own security, the better your life will be. Failure sucks the life out of you. Veni, vidi, vici, mawfawkah!
 

onesteptwostep

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I've tried telling them this many times. It usually ends with them screaming at me to "just do my fucking homework, it isn't that hard". I've talked with a psychologist one time, and she gave me some useful tips, and took away my diagnosis of ADHD (inattentive type), which was a double-edged sword. On one hand, I no longer have to take methylphenidate, which made me feel like shit and murdered my creativity, but on the other hand, it meant I no longer had a medical explanation for my "slacking off", at least in the eyes of my parents.

Your parents aren't going to understand everything in the world, but they will still love you to their deaths. Don't let their limitations be something of which will make you disrespect them, or else you will regret it looking back 5, 10 years from now on.

I usually don't like advising people to take a stoic route, but maybe try to accept the role in which you are and accept your mother's reasoning. Answer her emotions rather than trying to provide some cognitive self-analysis of yourself. Your family has to work as a unit in order to function. You have to find a balance between harmony and authenticity, or else you will only get discord.

You seem to like Sherlock Homles, by looking at your signature. I used to love reading the adventures of Dupin, a character Edgar Allan Poe created which is where Arthur Conan Doyle got his inspiration for Sherlock from.

Anyway, just talk to your mother.
 

Architect

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Sorry, I meant all four "letters" are 93% or above, not functions, i.e.
I-94%
N-98%
T-93%
P-94%

Yeah that doesn't mean much either actually. INTP's are dominant judgers (Ti), but external perceivers (Ne). So which is it, judging or perceiving? Both really.
 
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What about home-schooling? I wish that had been around when I was in school. Well it was but not so well known. Now there are websites and billboards and tv commercials for it. You could learn at your own pace. This could actually require more motivation but maybe it's something you should consider? Also, lots of INTPs have a hard time in school, along with other types as you probably know so remembering that might be a consolation. Remind your parents and teachers that both Einstein and Hawking did poorly in high-school. :p

Maybe you will have to negotiate with your parents and work in some way how you will be a little more social or something. Home schooling is more accepted now, so maybe you won't have a hard time convincing them. If it were me, I would just do it behind their backs. Then go to the library and they'd never be the wiser. You might even graduate a year early going the home-schooling route. Do you have any uncles or any friends where you could get stuff mailed to you so as to keep this from your parents? Just sayin'. I think the home-schooling thing is pretty cool. All in favor say "aye". :p

As far as sports, hmm, dunno. If you know you hate it, why torture yourself? As fas a socializing, join a group on the interwebs, you know, go to atheists meetings. :p Maybe get a part-time job? If that makes them happy. Shows work ethic? (Probably a bad idea, haha). Join the young entrepreneurs club? A computer club? Even if it's just for show to appease your parents. Sorry, I don't understand the ESFJ type, so I dunno what they really want from you. The psychologist thing other people mentioned seems like a good idea though.

Well, that still leaves the problem of motivation though. What I found was that making things more difficult for myself helped motivate me. I was not home-schooled, but I did take a few college online classes and tested out of some. I'm sorta INTJ though, so motivation was not my Achilles heel, but for example I waited for deadlines, missed a lot of classes, didn't take notes, you know stuff like that to make things harder. Not sure how that would apply to you.

I found this blog about INTP and ADD (it's sort of facetious) but there's a part about being easily distracted that you might relate to.
http://oddlydevelopedtypes.com/content/intps-and-add-0
 

rainman312

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Yeah that doesn't mean much either actually. INTP's are dominant judgers (Ti), but external perceivers (Ne). So which is it, judging or perceiving? Both really.

I'm not talking about Jungian cognitive functions.
 

rainman312

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What about home-schooling?
I'd love to do that, though I've talked to them before and they don't seem very open to it. Again, one of their primary complaints is that it doesn't "provide" me with enough social interaction.
As far as sports, hmm, dunno. If you know you hate it, why torture yourself? As fas a socializing, join a group on the interwebs, you know, go to atheists meetings.
I don't torture my self, my parents torture me. I would avoid competitive sports completely if that was an option to me. Unfortunately, I don't think it is. As far as clubs go, I actually have been meaning to join a few, but I figured I'd get the homework situation sorted out before I started using up more of my time. Also, as much as I'd love to talk to other atheists, both of my parents are relatively hard-core Catholics. It took my five years to admit my atheism to them.
 

onesteptwostep

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Also, as much as I'd love to talk to other atheists, both of my parents are relatively hard-core Catholics. It took my five years to admit my atheism to them.

Oh god, there's the underlying reason. Do they force you to go to mass still?
 

EditorOne

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To address one thing you mentioned, sports: I recall a couple of quiet fellows from high school who weren't motivated by the focused, competitive, aggressive, contact kinds of sports but who did enjoy running cross-country track. The training was literally cross country, it gave them an hour to themselves every day running across fields and woods and beaches, a few track meets to attend where they just had to run without much fuss, and it was worth a varsity letter. And it got people off their backs about sports, projecting some illusion of teenage normality that satisfied everyone fretting about that kind of stuff. Really they were just in their own heads, everyone else saw them in a sport, everyone was happy.

On the other stuff, I dunno, maybe you can substitute asking questions for faking emotions when people want to talk about things that don't engage you. They'd probably be pretty good questions, it would make people interact with you in a different way (other than being frustrated) and again, it would create the perception you are at least engaged with them, if not chortling with glee or sobbing with grief.

Just sayin, not preaching.
 
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I'd love to do that, though I've talked to them before and they don't seem very open to it. Again, one of their primary complaints is that it doesn't "provide" me with enough social interaction.

I don't torture my self, my parents torture me. I would avoid competitive sports completely if that was an option to me. Unfortunately, I don't think it is. As far as clubs go, I actually have been meaning to join a few, but I figured I'd get the homework situation sorted out before I started using up more of my time. Also, as much as I'd love to talk to other atheists, both of my parents are relatively hard-core Catholics. It took my five years to admit my atheism to them.

They're gonna force you to play sports? Dang. I say home school behind their backs. :p Oh the atheist thing was a half-joke.

As far as home-schooling. Do it! Then in a year tell them how you are a senior now! Or in two years tell them you're in college! Anyway the whole joining clubs thing was exactly to counter their argument about home-schooling not providing enough social interaction. Did I see that coming a mile away or what? :p

Dang I wish we could figure out a way to explain to them that you are not like them, and that that is perfectly ok. Being INTP is OK! What if you buy some books and give it to them? There is a free one on that link I put up about INTPs and ADD. Sounds like they really need to relax about social interactions. I mean, there is a whole culture around home-schooling, and I'm sure other parents have similar concerns so I bet they have figured a way around them. I bet there is like a prom for home-schoolers for example, you just gotta look more into this stuff so you can allay their fears. Don't be afraid to lie, exaggerate, or obfuscate though. :p

Ooh, look, check out this link, see?

http://www.homeschool.com/articles/socialization/

Also, on another subject, there is more and more evidence showing that high-school schedules (getting up early) are actually bad for the teenage brain. Do they want you to end up brain-damaged?? No, right??? :p
 

rainman312

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I'll certainly look into the home-schooling option more. It would definitely be something I would be do, if I can figure out a way to do it. I don't think introducing them to MBTI would work however. They'd probably think it's a bunch of garbage and I doubt it would help my situation. They'd assume I was using it as a crutch or an excuse. I've tried many times explaining to my mother that just because she enjoys and values social interaction doesn't mean I do. She responded by saying, "You try too hard to be weird. Everyone has social anxiety." At this point, I just got up and left, seeing as I wasn't even talking about social anxiety, simply about my dislike of excessive socialization. Apparently not trying hard at all to be weird is trying too hard.:confused: Also, in response to joining track or cross-country, that does seem like a decent option, seeing as I can run fairly quickly. I'd probably have to get my endurance up first, because I can't run very fast for very long.
 

EditorOne

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"Apparently not trying hard at all to be weird is trying too hard.:confused:"

Look at it from their paradigm: They've have to try really hard to be like you. :) Just like you'd have to try really hard to be like them.
 

EyeSeeCold

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I would think home-schooling is for the self-motivated, you said yourself you're not all that great at completing homework. Who knows though maybe being out of school may have a positive effect on your study habits.

Your parents probably just want you to succeed in the only way they understand, if that's the case they're just like anyone else's parents. Giving them results might have the most impact on them like showing them your test scores, high grades, other recognitions etc. Also something I think every parent would understand/respect is supporting yourself, i.e. if you could get a part time job they might give you more regard.

As for school itself, I think each person has to find their own unique inspiration and motivation for doing well in class. I wasn't great at doing homework either and honestly it didn't really matter that much in the end as long as your grades are good otherwise and you really do understand the material. Only a few things will carry on in college that you learned previously(aside from math).
 

Happy

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Sounds familiar...

I can offer some advice, but I can't advise taking any of it... I've made just about every mistake when it comes to education, and I can identify most of them, which is essential to correcting them. If you would like to know anything further, don't hesitate to ask.

Regarding your family:
Take no direct action. So what if you don't connect with them that well. Don't make it worse by addressing it. Just continue cohabiting the space and fly under the radar.

Regarding your education:
Every day, try to do something better than you did yesterday. You can't improve everything at once. Don't even try to. Just improve something about yourself every day. Don't ever compete with anyone else. Compete with yourself.

Pro-tip:
If you want people to leave you alone and get better at your schoolwork, do the following - do your work in plain sight within the common areas of your house and if anyone wants anything from you, tell them to piss off because you're trying to improve your schoolwork. You will have no distractions and people will leave you alone.

Physical exercise:
Do it, and do it alone. Keep a record/logbook of some basic fitness activity (running or whatever). Constantly try to beat your recorded progress. Soon enough, it will become an addiction.
I personally have the luxury of a gym membership, so I have a few different strict weight routines, I record every single thing I do (exercise, sets, reps) during rest times and then try to beat it the next session that I do that routine. If you're interested in this route, try finding inspiration in the the Serge Nubret workouts from the 60s/70s. He posted them online before he passed away a few years ago. It's pretty much the opposite of typical gym-rat, meathead material. Bonus points if you eat 4kg of horse meat every day.

Sports:
Team sports aren't really INTP friendly. Individual sports are. At your age, I did taekwon-do. And I was really good at it because it's very INTP friendly. You can navigate a martial art without socialising with anyone - actually, a good instructor will usually give you more attention if you don't. I competed often at national level and I don't think I ever made a friend through it. I was content with that.

Socialising:
Can't help you there...

Focus during homework:
Turn on some AM radio. Political talk shows are good for white noise and keeping away people who will distract you. I don't advocate listening to music. Although most people do. If you're going to listen to music while studying, make sure it's classical music.

Accountability:
Do your teachers hold you accountable when you fail to deliver on your homework obligations? If so, you need to address that. Ask them to be hard on you. They'll do it. They love that shit. If not, go to a better school.

Home Schooling:
If you can't motivate yourself to do work now, do you really think you'll be able to motivate yourself if there's nobody to report to?

Consider the purpose of your education:
(What follows is very subjective and representative only of my own opinion) The western education system is useless for passing on knowledge. That's not to say that its without its benefits. One of its many positive and less obvious outcomes is in giving you the opportunity to get good at being productive and actually getting things done. So far, you have not fulfilled this outcome. Fix that. Start now.

Feel free to agree/disagree/discuss. There is no cohesiveness in anything I've just written. I got a bit carried away.
 

onesteptwostep

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You know I always wanted to do fencing when I was in secondary school but I never had the money :[

Anyway I think the best way to procure motivation is through family. There's a conflict of values which needs to be solved somehow thorugh either through compromise or mutual understanding. That's most likely the cause of his disconnect with the family. Or else seek a mentor who share the same values. But yeah both of those routes are probably going to be harder then it sounds. I think the accountability with the teachers is a great idea, but it's probably going to take some courage to ask for it.
 

rainman312

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@Happy:

Thanks for the advice. I do compete with myself already, and it seems to help with the motivation, though not enough, I suppose. I've also been thinking about running, although where I live, that's not really a possibility at the moment, seeing as there's snow and ice everywhere and I would probably trip and break my skull. Also, at the school I go to, most of the teacher don't care at all about the students, so no, most of them don't hold me accountable, which I suppose I've come to like, although it certainly isn't a good thing. The reason I think homeschooling would be better isn't because it would motivate me in some way, but because it would give me plenty of freedom to do the work on my own timetable, which I think I could make work better than my current situation. I'm assuming homeschooling entails far less deadlines, which are my problem. I'd get into taekwon-do if I could, though my parents would assume it's just another one of my strange obsessions that I'll forget about in a few weeks and probably wouldn't agree to it. I'm also probably going to get a decent job this summer, as I'm getting certified in computer aided-design, which will allow me to work somewhere at which I'll actually be interested.
 

Happy

sorry for english
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@Happy:

Thanks for the advice. I do compete with myself already, and it seems to help with the motivation, though not enough, I suppose. I've also been thinking about running, although where I live, that's not really a possibility at the moment, seeing as there's snow and ice everywhere and I would probably trip and break my skull.

Indoor exercise is the way to go then. My suggestions are bodybuilding or martial arts. But that only scratches the surface. Theres plenty out there.

Also, at the school I go to, most of the teacher don't care at all about the students, so no, most of them don't hold me accountable, which I suppose I've come to like, although it certainly isn't a good thing. The reason I think homeschooling would be better isn't because it would motivate me in some way, but because it would give me plenty of freedom to do the work on my own timetable, which I think I could make work better than my current situation. I'm assuming homeschooling entails far less deadlines, which are my problem.
From the sounds of it, you need the pressure of deadlines. IMO forget homeschooling. Also, stay in school. You will be glad for it later. Try to just do better every day/session and the results will show. You just need to reflect on what you're not doing right and figure out how to fix it, its not an overnight process - actually, its more of a lifelong process. I've had professional help in this area and trust me when I say, theres no easy fix.

Also, look into the book: Getting Things Done by David Allen (aka GTD)

I'm also probably going to get a decent job this summer, as I'm getting certified in computer aided-design, which will allow me to work somewhere at which I'll actually be interested.

CAD is my life. I use it every-single-day. If you have any general queries about it, feel free to ask me.

I am the CAD wizard! :king-twitter:
 

rainman312

rice-eater extraordinaire
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Thanks Happy. Your advice is great. I'll definitely read that book, hopefully I get something useful out of it. :)
 

Ex-User (8886)

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Live in this hell for next 4 years. You're INTP, you're smart, and you'll survive.
 

Mordecai

Nostalgic Time Transcender
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Here's my strategy. It works amazingly well for me, but apparently my peers who have tried it cracked under the stress. Anyways, it gets me by with A's and B's in all honors. I also wouldn't say it's exactly a new, fantastic, unheard of strategy, but perhaps my explanation of it will help you.

I call it:

Procrastination.

I put things off. A lot. Just like many other INTPs.

However,

There is a state of mind, one of which is only achievable when it's needed desperately (at least for me), and by procrastinating I can unlock it.

It's a weird sort of zen mode.

Basically, I put off my homework until a ridiculous time like 5:30 AM. Then, I proceed to work constantly with no distractions until I finish.
So yeah.
Writing this out, I know this seems kind of lame and unworthy of posting.

But I'm horrendously sleep deprived.

Hope somehow this helped.
 
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