Need Social Advice Please Feel Free to Ignore

[dutchdisease]

I really hate these threads with a passion but I don't know how to handle this. And before anyone asks there was no dating between us though I'm sure she wanted that.

Basically someone who i have recently cut away from my life has messaged me. To them I was some sort of understanding, caring, there for them type of friend. To me that person was just someone who was there to pass the time and I wished nothing more than for us to share our moments together and then part ways when the time came (I found the relationship unhealthy too much whoa is me and chronic self pity I find these to be evil and infectious). Perhaps this is wrong but non-the-less they were my actions.

As you can guess they failed to let go so I basically just ignored them out of my life. The calls and messages came and went but finally I thought it was over. But now the return with a vengeance.

MAIN POINT

She messaged me today telling me her parent is dying and she needs someone.

I feel bad for her I really do but I don't wan't to go back through all this. As soon as I talk to her everything I have done to avoid her will be for nothing and I will have another unhealthy leach sucking away the energy I desperately need to conserve. On the other hand it is a terrible situation for her and for all I know she might try something stupid.


Thoughts Please

not edited for typos

 

[Grayman]

So you feel guilty for not doing something. Will our opinion absolve you of this?

Everyone has their limits. You can push them and discover more about yourself but sometimes pushing too hard can break you.

 

[Fukyo]

I'd provide limited support from a distance but avoid getting too wrapped up into it.

 

[Sinny91]

Hmm... Can you relay to us the whole message that you got?

So we can attempt to gauge her neediness?

But yea in short, I'd do what Fukyo said.

It's all about the wording and firmness in your response back to her.

You could use the excuse that you have your own major issues to deal with.

 

[Grayman]

Oh gauwd don't open the door. She'll take it as an invitation to stay the night. Pretend you aren't home.

 

[dutchdisease]

Hmm... Can you relay to us the whole message that you got?

So we can attempt to gauge her neediness?

But yea in short, I'd do what Fukyo said.

It's all about the wording and firmness in your response back to her.

You could use the excuse that you have your own major issues to deal with.

i'll paraphrase " I know you probably won't care but my [Insert Parent] is in the hospital and they are dying"

"Please I really need someone"

 

[Grayman]

i'll paraphrase " I know you probably won't care but my [Insert Parent] is in the hospital and they are dying"

"Please I really need someone"

WTF! Shut the F up! She's a true cunt. Screw that.

I know you probably won't careI know you probably won't careI know you probably won't careI know you probably won't careI know you probably won't careI know you probably won't careI know you probably won't careI know you probably won't careI know you probably won't careI know you probably won't careI know you probably won't careI know you probably won't careI know you probably won't care

 

[dutchdisease]

So you feel guilty for not doing something. Will our opinion absolve you of this?

I didn't think it would do any such thing at first but now this is looking promising.

 

[Bad Itch]

i'll paraphrase " I know you probably won't care but my [Insert Parent] is in the hospital and they are dying"

"Please I really need someone"

I second Grayman's motion. And run.

 

[Sinny91]

Yea, I'd just reply back and say

"It's not that I don't care, I feel for you whilst you are in this current situation, however I have a lot of my own personal problems to deal with at the moment and I don't feel like I can offer you the emotional support that you require.. I'm sure there must be other people you can turn to during this time of need, all the best DutchDisease"

Chuthink?

 

[dutchdisease]

Yea, I'd just reply back and say

"It's not that I don't care, I feel for you whilst you are in this current situation, however I have a lot of my own personal problems to deal with at the moment and I don't feel like I can offer you the emotional support that you require.. I'm sure there must be other people you can turn to during this time of need, all the best DutchDisease"

Chuthink?

I don't know, it sends the right message but it assumes she will understand. I fear I would be opening Pandora's box. She might keep pushing and then i just have someone I have to shut down completely. This isn't some sort of INTP we are dealing with here. Really I just want to stopped being looked at as a friend or someone to turn to but I do believe my action can have rather large consequences and I wish no harm on anyone. So I am perplexed but I don't have any desire to talk to this person outside of some inner perceived obligation. Helping your fellow man in a time of need and whatnot. Not having to think someone will end up in the hospital from some botched suicide attempt. Ugh, too late to be dealing with these types of people.

 

[Bad Itch]

I don't know, it sends the right message but it assumes she will understand. I fear I would be opening Pandora's box. She might keep pushing and then i just have someone I have to shut down completely. This isn't some sort of INTP we are dealing with here. Really I just want to stopped being looked at as a friend or someone to turn to but I do believe my action can have rather large consequences and I wish no harm on anyone. So I am perplexed but I don't have any desire to talk to this person outside of some inner perceived obligation. Helping your fellow man in a time of need and whatnot. Not having to think someone will end up in the hospital from some botched suicide attempt. Ugh, too late to be dealing with these types of people.

It's a tough call... sending the message regardless of whether it's understood is at least an attempt to make your position clear. If she does end up pushing and you need to shut her down completely at least you will know that you did due diligence.

At the end of the day, are you going to be affected emotionally if she comes away with a negative opinion of you for your reasonable reasons for not being able to be her crutch through this event? Forget for a moment your concern over whether you would be contributing to her possibly harming herself- like if that wasn't on your mind, how would you feel if she "disliked" you tomorrow as a result.

I only ask that question because of the impression I get of her from your paraphrased message. Now... you did paraphrase so there could be some bias in how you communicated the message, and the impression I get from the message is in line with the impression I get from your description of her as basically being needy and maybe a little bit obsessed. IF those impressions are somewhat in line with reality then you might be in luck... I think that her brand of mindset (I want to say "flavor of cray-cray" but that would be presumptuous and maybe mean) can resort to anger/resentment/hatred in the face of this kind of... betrayal? Maybe she will just rationalize you out of her life because you're failing to meet her needs and then everyone wins. It seems like she already did that to a degree, but then reeled you back in when she started facing a crisis.

If she's the type to harm herself then it might also help you to keep in mind that you're probably just one straw on that camel's back, not a log.

In the same breath, I pretty much did the same to someone in the last 10 months under different circumstances and the results have been... colorful. During a late night drunken phone call (I was getting a lot of those from this person) I flat out told her

"I'm not good for this. I can't be your confidant, I can't do this small talk and I really think that you should see a doctor about [omitted] if you think it's serious."

As drunk as she was this stuck when she sobered up. She has subsequently dedicated a formidable amount of effort to collateral damage... it's actually pretty amazing. On the bright side, I'm like... totally off the hook. I feel bad for the innocents caught up in her counter attack (okay so not completely off the hook but pretty darn close... close enough for me).

So I would consider trying to communicate the message as compassionately as you can, and if that fails then you dust off and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

 

[Minuend]

WTF! Shut the F up! She's a true cunt. Screw that.

Would be my initial reaction too. Getting a manipulative text like that would piss me off. One of my peeves are people trying to guilt people into doing what they want with no regard but for themselves

Anyway. Even if that's not the case, there's only so much you can do for another person. Sometimes we just can't help them. Sometimes they don't even want help, they just want to be an emotional leech and use the pretense of chaos in their lives to force you back to them. Erm.

Helping others isn't always a good thing, or even useful. Sometimes it allows for a person to continue their disruptive path, sometimes it makes it worse. Sometimes not helping is helping. That being said, some people will just be lost to us regardless what we do or don't do. In which case some people are left with the feeling of "I should've done more", but in reality maybe they did the best action, but nothing would help anyway so the outcome was determined to be what it became.

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

i'll paraphrase " I know you probably won't care but my [Insert Parent] is in the hospital and they are dying"

"Please I really need someone"

It's fucked up how I both recognize how shitty and manipulative that is but also recognize that it would totally work on me.

Yea, I'd just reply back and say

"It's not that I don't care, I feel for you whilst you are in this current situation, however I have a lot of my own personal problems to deal with at the moment and I don't feel like I can offer you the emotional support that you require.. I'm sure there must be other people you can turn to during this time of need, all the best DutchDisease"

Chuthink?

Don't tell her you also have personal issues. She'll take that as you opening up and will try to form a dialogue of sorts in which you both help each other with issues and depend on each other.

I know it's fucked, but honestly I would probably just ignore everything entirely until it all went away (but feel really guilty about it for years to come (/me is clearly a paragon of maintaining healthy relationships)).

 

[Sinny91]

Perhaps a good point there Cheesums.

In comparison to some of you lot, I think I'm an extra nice person. It's really no skin of my nose to send a couple of messages that could greatly impact somebody else's life/emotional state.

In fact, I do it often. Some people just are emotionally needy/emotional train wrecks. Some people are emotional leeches. But I don't really experience many emotions, so good look trying leech off me, lol.

Send a nice but firm message, if it don't sink in, send a firmer one and just END IT. Somewhat harshly if that is what is required, but at least you can be safe in the knowledge that you tried the nice way first.

 

[The Gopher]

Run, run, run, run, run away, run away, run away leave and never come back. <---- to the tune of Thomas the tank engine.

It may be true but it's manipulative. I've dealt with my fair share of manipulative people and (while maybe not right now if it's true) generally a quick way to deal with it is tell them you don't care about them and/or find them boring. If you want to go the extra mile you can outline why they are manipulative. A quicker way would be to say you hope said parent dies.

Okay that's cold but you don't need to care. Helps deal with guilt by just escalating to the point you have to rationalize it to not feel guilt rather than having it in the gray area where you feel guilt for years to come like Cheesepuffs said.

Spoiler

Don't pretend like you didn't try to work out how that would have gone to the tune of Thomas before realising it doesn't work.

 

[Minuend]

Maybe so, sinny. I wont deny I'm a bit cynical toward people at times.

If you can pull that off without getting sucked in, manipulated or feel drained, then yeah that's an entirely fair thing to do.

It's fucked up how I both recognize how shitty and manipulative that is but also recognize that it would totally work on me.

You need to get in contact with that inner rage, that inner cheesebeast. Do you ever get annoyed or angry at people who are malicious? You can use that same feeling as defense against manipulative people. Or if you have an inner sense of justice, you can try to label them as "bad" or whatever in your mind. If you can't summon these thoughts and feelings on behalf of yourself, you could try imagining how you'd feel if the person treated a third person the way it treats you. It can work as a first step to be able to set better boundaries for yourself

Erm, I don't mean to tell you how to think or live your life. I just tend to write things like these if I think there is some tiny chance some person reading it might benefit from it (might not even be you).

Edit: I find that to get over negative feels of things that happened in the past/ recently, is just accept the bad things. Yeah, ok maybe someone is feeling sad but it's ok. It wont kill them and if they're angry with me that's ok too. The world keeps going and so forth. It's ok to feel shit and maybe I can find something good that came out of. Maybe focus on how I learned a lesson the hard way or see it as an opportunity to deal with difficult emotions. Etc

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

You need to get in contact with that inner rage, that inner cheesebeast.

I locked him away and stopped feeding him.

I wonder if he's still alive, even

Do you ever get annoyed or angry at people who are malicious? You can use that same feeling as defense against manipulative people.

Malicious, yes, that bothers me. I don't view behavior like this as inherently malicious, though (right or wrong as I may be). It's selfish, yes definitely, but it's not designed to hurt others first and foremost. It's the difference between a vampire and an axe-murderer. The vampire just wants to feed (needs to feed) whereas the axe murderer wants to kill.

Being an emotional vampire is certainly bad, but not evil (from my skewed perspective). The problem here is I'm oddly and uncomfortably still attracted to selfish, needy, manipulative emotional vampires despite the fact that I know they're bad news.

So yeah, I can't be mad at them, especially if I'm the only one they're hurting/feeding off. In a way I like the feeding part. It's when they actually hurt me that I end up getting mad, but mostly at myself for being vampire food yet again (tbh the only reason I ever vocalize distaste for my ex is because the alternative is feeling immense amounts of distaste for myself. Truth be told I feel incapable of hating her).

Whatever, fuck it, this isn't my thread ignore me.

 

[Grayman]

Malicious, yes, that bothers me. I don't view behavior like this as inherently malicious, though (right or wrong as I may be). It's selfish, yes definitely, but it's not designed to hurt others first and foremost. It's the difference between a vampire and an axe-murderer. The vampire just wants to feed (needs to feed) whereas the axe murderer wants to kill.

Being an emotional vampire is certainly bad, but not evil (from my skewed perspective). The problem here is I'm oddly and uncomfortably still attracted to selfish, needy, manipulative emotional vampires despite the fact that I know they're bad news.

So yeah, I can't be mad at them, especially if I'm the only one they're hurting/feeding off. In a way I like the feeding part. It's when they actually hurt me that I end up getting mad, but mostly at myself for being vampire food yet again (tbh the only reason I ever vocalize distaste for my ex is because the alternative is feeling immense amounts of distaste for myself. Truth be told I feel incapable of hating her).

Whatever, fuck it, this isn't my thread ignore me.Malicious, yes, that bothers me. I don't view behavior like this as inherently malicious, though (right or wrong as I may be). It's selfish, yes definitely, but it's not designed to hurt others first and foremost. It's the difference between a vampire and an axe-murderer. The vampire just wants to feed (needs to feed) whereas the axe murderer wants to kill.

Anger is never meant for anyone but yourself. Be angry. Feel good. Heal. Doesn't mean you have to shit on her. Hell you dont even have to be angry at her. Be angry at the situation.

Even so you can learn to put a wall up without resorting to steam.

Whatever, fuck it, this isn't my thread ignore me.

dont be such a wimp. You are as bad as the OP. Release be at peace.

 

[smithcommajohn]

I hate those kind of texts. I used to get them from an ex-gf of mine whenever she needed something/someone. You know what worked? I stopped replying. It instigated a string of texts for a couple of weeks that ran the gamut of emotions and abusive language, but eventually they stopped completely and she's out of my life for good now.

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

Doesn't mean you have to shit on her. Hell you dont even have to be angry at her.

I don't, and I'm not.

I occasionally "express distaste" which is a far cry from shitting on her.

 

[Grayman]

I don't, and I'm not.

I occasionally "express distaste" which is a far cry from shitting on her.

Lol, I know you don't. Unlikely for sure. My point was that you should let yourself feel. Whether she desrves your anger or not is irrelevant.

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

Lol, I know you don't. Unlikely for sure. My point was that you should let yourself feel. Whether she desrves your anger or not is irrelevant.

Okay yeah lol. I wasn't really trying to get at a feeling/not feeling angle of things. I think I allow myself enough feeling.

I honestly had just meant it as a throwaway comment that it was probably kind of fucked up how I know I'm still attracted to emotional vampires even though I'm aware of their impact. I didn't mean to cause multiple derail posts about it.

 

[Minuend]

Malicious, yes, that bothers me. I don't view behavior like this as inherently malicious, though (right or wrong as I may be). It's selfish, yes definitely, but it's not designed to hurt others first and foremost. It's the difference between a vampire and an axe-murderer. The vampire just wants to feed (needs to feed) whereas the axe murderer wants to kill. Being an emotional vampire is certainly bad, but not evil (from my skewed perspective).

I understand that reasoning very well. My RL friend of 10 years thinks similarly to you. It lead to a few situations where I had to "save" her from people who were potentially dangerous (the write with their own blood on doors type of potentially dangerous). Because she isn't able to judge their initial shitty behavior, even though she recognize the shittiness of it. She also tends to quickly blame herself for their shitty behavior.

Like she used to date this guy who was childishly unreasonable, but she still said "but I'm not perfect either". Yeah, no shit. I'm not expecting anyone to be goddamn saint mary to be allowed to think ill of other people's behavior. It might seem a bit primitive to think bad of other people's behavior, but I think for a lot of people it's important to protect themselves from it. At least at this point in history where we think and behave the way we do. There might be some alternative thinking strategy there, but I wont go on another tangent.

There do exists people that are incapable of being a good friend and partner, I see your point on that. It's just who they became and it's unlikely they'll improve much throughout their lives.

The problem here is I'm oddly and uncomfortably still attracted to selfish, needy, manipulative emotional vampires despite the fact that I know they're bad news.

So yeah, I can't be mad at them, especially if I'm the only one they're hurting/feeding off. In a way I like the feeding part. It's when they actually hurt me that I end up getting mad, but mostly at myself for being vampire food yet again (tbh the only reason I ever vocalize distaste for my ex is because the alternative is feeling immense amounts of distaste for myself. Truth be told I feel incapable of hating her).

Whatever, fuck it, this isn't my thread ignore me.

I can understand where you're coming from, and I don't consider it a bad thing to enjoy vampireness. Just remember to take care of yourself as well.

 

[dutchdisease]

Obligatory Update:

I have decided to continue ignoring her. I think I am dealing with someone who I can not possibly help and have no desire to handle. Still getting occasional calls but they appear to be thinning.

 

[smithcommajohn]

Obligatory Update:

I have decided to continue ignoring her. I think I am dealing with someone who I can not possibly help and have no desire to handle. Still getting occasional calls but they appear to be thinning.

Smart move. They will eventually stop.

 

[EditorOne]

Just a thought born from my curiosity, but if it were me, I'd check to see if she really has a parent in the hospital and if so whether it's life-and-death time or just a hangnail. For me, that would clarify and help me decide.

You don't just take someone's word for what the facts are when you're feeling manipulated.

I speak from experience. My first wife still calls when she's feeling particularly needy to fill me in on her latest afflictions or drama. To be fair, she is pretty screwed up, with a genetically transmitted situation that leaves her with blood vessels in the brain that periodically go splat, plus a mother, now thankfully dead, who was manipulative, domineering and gratuitously unpleasant. But I still check with some of her friends to see if I should get ready to attend her imminent funeral before I actually pack my bags.

 

[dutchdisease]

Her mother died apparently (not messaged to me, made public). Very mixed feelings.

 

[Bad Itch]

Her mother died apparently (not messaged to me, made public). Very mixed feelings.

One way to look at it now might be: If she can get through this without you (which she probably can) then she can get through lots of other things too. Chalk one up for "tough love"?

Do you work? If you do feel like you need to reach out in light of this information, you can maybe use that to fabricate a plausible reason for having been unresponsive in the short term to mitigate some of the awkwardness. You're still going to end up having to cut the cord later on though.

Or perhaps it's now safe to adapt Sinny's message to include a condolence and best wishes or whatever we try to convey when a relative of an acquaintance passes on, and then close the door again with a clear message of your unavailability.

That's a yucky mixed-bag of feelings you've got your hands in; not a comfortable place to be for certain.

 

[Grayman]

Id send flowers and card.

 

[Bad Itch]

Id send flowers and card.

Or this.

 

[Seteleechete]

I'd be as uncaring/blunt as I usually am and thereby probably ruin another relationship... yeah don't do as I in regards to social interaction.

 

[Pyropyro]

Her mother died apparently (not messaged to me, made public). Very mixed feelings.

It's probably best to continue what you are doing. Communicating even a condolence may change her perspective from "dutchdisease isn't available" to "I knew my efforts will pay sooner or later!".

It's unfortunate that her mother has passed but if the news have reached others then there will be no shortage of condolences and messages of comfort addressed to her.

 

[dutchdisease]

Really, I think I am just going to let this one go. There are people much better suited to all the love and condolences than I am. I'm going through a few rough patches in my life myself right now that must be attended to even though there is little I can do about them at the moment. I appreciate everyone's responses.

 

[The Gopher]

YAY! DuDi has successfully made the right decision.

 

[Ex-User (13503)]

This thread saddens me, but maybe something can come from it, so I'll try.

This situation was mishandled, imho (but we learn from our mistakes).

She could/should have been referred to a therapist or grief counselor. That would have 1) provided her with real, trained, professional support 2) effectively relieved OP of the burden they feared 3) provided OP with a precedent for future events in both this category and this relationship 4) not made OP look like an uncaring asshole 5) not hurt her anywhere near as badly, if at all 6) not hurt OP.

As soon as I talk to her everything I have done to avoid her will be for nothing and I will have another unhealthy leach sucking away the energy I desperately need to conserve.

mixed feelings

Ultimately, if you learn to handle people correctly, you can actually maintain real and meaningful relationships without having issues of feeling sapped or used, allowing the wrong people to get too close, escaping to isolation, or feeling bad/guilty afterward. These hold you back. All of them. You absolutely did the right thing by asking for advice, but keep in mind that sometimes it's best to ask people who are very different from you, because the more similar someone is to you, the more likely it is that they share the same weaknesses and can't actually offer much of use, even if you like or agree with what they have to say. This is a problem for most people, so no reason to feel bad about this experience, unless you don't learn from it. I think there's still opportunity to salvage, if you want, but that's entirely up to you.

The same awareness of perspective or lack thereof should apply to advisers as well, lest a thread become a tidal wave of groupthink lemmings.

"use the excuse that you have your own major issues to deal with"
"She's a true cunt"
"tough love"
"run"
"vampire"
"ignore"

 

[Seteleechete]

This situation was mishandled, imho (but we learn from our mistakes).

She could/should have been referred to a therapist or grief counselor. That would have 1) provided her with real, trained, professional support 2) effectively relieved OP of the burden they feared 3) provided OP with a precedent for future events in both this category and this relationship 4) not made OP look like an uncaring asshole 5) not hurt her anywhere near as badly, if at all 6) not hurt OP.

The same awareness of perspective or lack thereof should apply to advisers as well, lest a thread become a tidal wave of groupthink lemmings

You know, this is good advice and also advice I would probably never have thought of giving(at least while only casually and briefly thinking about the subject like I was). Kinda forgetful that unlike our group of introspective misfits therapists are actually useful for "normal" people.

Also, we did zero in on the OPs rather than the girls problem. He came "I don't want to deal with this girl" and that was the problem of focus, obvious solution don't. But if we actually were of the mindset "How can I help the girl when I am to unable to do so" we would have come up with a solution. Zeroing in, distractions, yup sounds like groupthink pressure. Then again I was taking this situation far too casually so I will blame things on that.

 

[Seteleechete]

Now I want to use that advice on my own parents...(They are majorly stressed/upset about me currently ruining my own life and their inability to do something about it). I have distanced myself sufficiently emotionally to where I can just ignore their plight and so anytime I talk to them I just make things worse(because I am blunt and refuse to change that).

Can't really see a way to convince them of course. They are ex-USSR people, see mental illness as akin to a death sentence and would get mad about me "ridiculing" them if I broached the idea of them seeking mental help because of their response to my mental troubles(lol). They would probably benefit from marriage counseling as well, but meh.

 

[dutchdisease]

Now I want to use that advice on my own parents...(They are majorly stressed/upset about me currently ruining my own life and their inability to do something about it).

Just out of curiosity how are you ruining your life?

 

[Seteleechete]

Just out of curiosity how are you ruining your life?

Depression, loneliness combined with being anti social, general apathy about everything and pretty heavy lethargy/lack of energy. I am doing little else but wasting my time away lying in my bed.(And this has been going on and off for years).

Oh, and as a side effect I will probably get kicked out of my current house/university soon. But meh, I really don't care much atm. I know for a fact that I can get by on a meal and a bed and there are multiple potential simple solutions for that.

 

[smithcommajohn]

You absolutely did the right thing by asking for advice, but keep in mind that sometimes it's best to ask people who are very different from you, because the more similar someone is to you, the more likely it is that they share the same weaknesses and can't actually offer much of use, even if you like or agree with what they have to say.

I think we all provided legitimate advice from past experience. You may consider my "ignore" advice to be a "weakness", but I found it to be extremely effective in ridding me of a person who was a huge liability in my life. From my gatherings of the original posting, he wasn't looking to salvage the friendship, so assuming such is just balderdash. I offered the quickest, most effective advice I could, as did others. While you see similarities of thought as something to be avoided, I see it as a boon, because I can offer advice that will be easy for someone like me to follow, not a long silly road of recommending therapy (which is a worse insult than silence, if you ask me).

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

a long silly road of recommending therapy (which is a worse insult than silence, if you ask me).

I agree. Recommending someone a therapist is hugely insulting, imo.


Also, Lago, I think you've misinterpreted my use of "vampire" as it was not meant to be derogatory nor was it directed at this girl in particular.

 

[The Gopher]

Ultimately, if you learn to handle people correctly, you can actually maintain real and meaningful relationships without having issues of feeling sapped or used, allowing the wrong people to get too close, escaping to isolation, or feeling bad/guilty afterward.

Hah no. I appreciate the ideal but that's very naive. If you have to expend seven hours of energy a day handling people you aren't actually handling people. The more people like that in your life to handle the worse it gets. Now sure it might take two years for it to finally take effect but in the end there are some people you need to cut off. You obviously haven't met anyone bad enough if this is your opinion.

Now sure you and I may be far better at handling people than the average INTPf person but keep in mind you and I wouldn't be asking for social advice on the forum. DD can't handle people in that way and has no social obligation to handle people in that way so he shouldn't handle people that way.

 

[Sinny91]

Yup, that ship has sailed.

If i were you I'd feel like a sucky, selfish human being.
But deal and move on.

 

[Minuend]

It's no really guaranteed a message would be a better thing than silence. It could just as easily hurt the girl worse because it's a definitive response where he cuts her off. Then she knows he doesn't care. Doesn't matter what package it comes in, that's how it will be read. "He doesn't care even though my mother died". Writing something like "I'm sure you have someone else to turn to" would be even more woundful if she indeed had nobody else. It would remind her that she is all alone now.

Recommending a therapist? I'm not convinced a message would actually make her see one. (I also agree for some it would be perceived as an insult, because in their mind they're looking for a friend, not a counselor. Especially self pitying people have a tendency to picture themselves innocent victims only wanting a "friend". Some would also take the suggestion as a slight they're crazy). It would still be a rejection in her eyes. If she wanted a therapist, why didn't she go see one already? (Maybe she already is). Why would a message from DD change her perspective on that? In some, few cases it might work, but I don't see it likely enough to use that as a reason to text her. That in combination with what I'll write below:

I find it more likely she would find a no response better, as she could put into it whatever she wanted. She could pretend he was too hurt to reply, didn't get the message or anything that made her feel better. Even when people -know- that's not the truth, they want to believe it anyway.

Observing and dealing with people like that has made it clear to me "kindness" is usually just more fuel for the fire. That's why I didn't champion the action of replying, not because it's necessarily what I'd do with any person, but because I didn't see any reason to send a message in this situation. Of course, you're always limited by the little info you're provided by one person, so there's only so accurate you can interpret something.

Ultimately, if you learn to handle people correctly, you can actually maintain real and meaningful relationships without having issues of feeling sapped or used, allowing the wrong people to get too close, escaping to isolation, or feeling bad/guilty afterward.

"Allowing the wrong people to get too close". That's what DD is doing. Or did you mean you should still keep them around, but not allow them close to you?

I disagree it's that simple. People are very different and comes with various baggage. An easy example would be a person who grows up in conditions (trauma, abuse etc) where they lack self esteem and the ability to set boundaries for themselves. Telling them they just need to learn how to handle people will generally make them sacrifice themselves even more for those who would take advantage. And I think it's risky giving such an advice, since it could make the "wrong" types of people feel guilty (other people than DD is reading these posts). The types of people who tend to let other people destroy them, even when they see it coming.

There are people you need to cut off, like gopher said. You have people who are violent, you have people who spread bad rumors about you to your friends and family, people who steal, people who'd rape you if having the opportunity (men are not safe from that either) etc. A lot of the times you wont know them until they do something. But surrounding yourself with emotional needy and volatile people, I would claim, increases the risk of ending up in such trouble. Especially if you're not talented in the ways of reading people. The average person is very clueless to what can be seen plain in people's faces and in what they say. Even more so if that person knows how to lie and pretend. Though, I wouldn't recommend anyone to play with fire, however talented in the ways of people.

You absolutely did the right thing by asking for advice, but keep in mind that sometimes it's best to ask people who are very different from you, because the more similar someone is to you, the more likely it is that they share the same weaknesses and can't actually offer much of use, even if you like or agree with what they have to say

In general, it's not about being same or different, it's about being able to read a situation better or worse. If you're good at reading situations and people, you will offer better advice, it's irrelevant whether you share the weaknesses of DD as you will be aware of that and take it into consideration as well. And with people who don't share the weakness, you risk meeting someone who can't read the situation and gives bad advice because they base their advice on own feelings and perceptions which could worsen things because they assume other people would respond the same as them.

 

[Ex-User (13503)]

You know, this is good advice.

Thanks. Yeah, basically, the OP's problem was the girl's problem, so solve that (or redirect to someone who can) and you solve both.

I think we all provided legitimate advice from past experience. You may consider my "ignore" advice to be a "weakness", but I found it to be extremely effective in ridding me of a person who was a huge liability in my life. From my gatherings of the original posting, he wasn't looking to salvage the friendship, so assuming such is just balderdash. I offered the quickest, most effective advice I could, as did others. While you see similarities of thought as something to be avoided, I see it as a boon, because I can offer advice that will be easy for someone like me to follow, not a long silly road of recommending therapy (which is a worse insult than silence, if you ask me).

Spoiler

That was not an attack on you or anyone else. I only mentioned "ignore" as an example of the tidal wave, not of weakness, and specific to weakness, I meant weakness in terms of ways of thinking, orientation, and perspective, not experience. It was legitimate advice, and the best you could offer. Why should you feel bad for doing your best? I don't think anyone should.

There's no denying that a more experienced similar peer can be very useful, but what I'm saying is that no matter how experienced a hammer is, it will rarely if ever think or function like a saw, even when doing so would be beneficial and efficient. Similarity invites good understanding where there is overlap in experience or intent (shared goals), and allows ease of communication, but it also invites bias because though you're sympathetic, it's difficult to objectively evaluate someone who thinks like you do.

I also didn't assume OP wanted to salvage. That sentence was actually the last one I typed, because I realized OP might feel that urge, so I addressed it ahead of time clarifying that such was fully his choice. My words are often literal. My goal ITT is simply to provide information and possible applications. Whether or how it's used isn't my choice or responsibility.

Otherwise, it seems like you've had a bad experience with therapy. Wanna talk about it? Really though, it probably would be a worse insult than silence to you and similar peers, but obviously this girl isnt one of those based on her actions, so then what would fulfill her needs from her perspective? Look at your own statement: "because I can offer advice that will be easy for someone like me to follow." Given that she's clearly different from OP & Clan, how would you go about providing the same for her? She'd prefer someone similar to herself to attach to instead, much like you'd prefer to ask a colleague in your field a technical database question instead of the ESFJ secretary down the hall. It's only upon realizing this that sending her to a therapist becomes an option, even if that option isn't suitable advice for you or OP personally.

I anticipate you or others possibly responding with something like "but ignoring her does the same thing: it makes her go away" to which my response would be that silence or any other indirect or passive method doesn't allow you to differentiate between malignant and benign intent on her part, and doesn't establish clear boundaries for yourself in the future.

I agree. Recommending someone a therapist is hugely insulting, imo.

Some people (YOU PEOPLE!?!?!) interpret "you should see a therapist" as an insult akin to "you're flawed" instead of just "I don't know how to help you, but I think they might." It's about context, wording, and perspective. I think I covered this sufficiently in my response to SCJ, "vampire" too in addressing "ignore", but if not, let me know.

Hah no. I appreciate the ideal but that's very naive. If you have to expend seven hours of energy a day handling people you aren't actually handling people. The more people like that in your life to handle the worse it gets. Now sure it might take two years for it to finally take effect but in the end there are some people you need to cut off. You obviously haven't met anyone bad enough if this is your opinion.
Now sure you and I may be far better at handling people than the average INTPf person but keep in mind you and I wouldn't be asking for social advice on the forum. DD can't handle people in that way and has no social obligation to handle people in that way so he shouldn't handle people that way.

"I'm not sure how to handle this. I think you should talk to a trained professional. I hope everything works out for you." takes... 30 seconds? And if they keep trying, you just repeat, maintaining your boundaries. They'll learn how to interact with you, which may be not at all if they come to see no value in you. "7 hours a day" seems like you're definitely talking about handling the issues, and if it's taking that much of an investment, issues you're possibly not equipped to handle, not the people. If you decide to invest time in helping someone, that's your choice and it sucks for you if your contributions aren't appreciated, but that's not what handling people is, it doesn't mean that feeling the urge to provide help is a choice or a bad thing, nor does it mean that someone rejecting help isn't choosing to hurt themselves.

How can you say what I or DD or anyone else can't do? That is for them to determine. Everyone ITT made the best possible decision based on the information available to them, imho. Knowledge is a limiting factor. My goal is to show what can be done if one so chooses, options they may not have realized existed before, from perspectives they may not have been aware of.

 

[Ex-User (13503)]

@Minuend
There's a lot there, so here's what I'll do: I think I addressed most of this in my replies to others above, so I won't repeat, but if you read my responses and think I've missed something, let me know.

If you know you're not competent in a given area, there should be no issue stating that and sending them to someone who is, and nothing about doing so says you don't care. If I were a carpenter and you asked me to perform a surgery, would you prefer that I attempted surgery without competence, that I remained silent while you stood by needing surgery, or that I told you to see a doctor? If sending you to a doctor is misinterpreted as not caring, that's not an issue with me, but with you trusting that I had the skills of a doctor while not trusting my knowledge of self.

I'm not convinced a message would actually make her see one.

That's her choice. It's not a bad reflection on you if someone makes the wrong choice counter to your best advice.

A lot of this is purely hypothetical. Because we can only act based on the information available to us, there's nothing wrong with recommending a therapist if she's already seeing one and we don't know that, for example. Information is limited, like you said.

"Allowing the wrong people to get too close". That's what DD is doing. Or did you mean you should still keep them around, but not allow them close to you?

We teach others how to treat us based on our actions, which is that simple. It's not about deciding whether to keep them around or shun them, but about allowing them to decide if they want to interact with us on our terms. If you assertively establish clear and consistent boundaries based on your competence, they adapt to you. It's very Pavlovian. Ignoring someone is far from clear or assertive.

I absolutely agree that some people need to be cut off, specifically the ones who don't respect the boundaries you create. If they come back after you explain that you're not equipped and sent them to the right person instead, it's time to drop them, because their actions indicate that they have other motives or otherwise have a more pathological irrational streak or perception issue.

The goal isn't to surround yourself with emotionally needy people at all, but the opposite: make the benign ones less needy and thus more tolerable by getting their needs met elsewhere, and separate yourself from the malignant ones; and I described above how to tell them apart based on their respect for your boundaries. Someone doesn't have to be gifted with people to learn how to manage them. Does that make sense? Some things just need to be learned. No one is born an expert.