My Theory of Free Will

[Black Rose]

Seems this is a claim you need to back up.

is there anything that god doesn't already have ?

does anything exist truly independently of an omniscient omnipotent god ?

Just because everything is contingent on God does not mean that God micromanages the universe. Creation does not entail dictatorship.

you are saying the creation is separate from god.

zombie is saying nothing can be seporate because that entails some kind of broken logic.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Just because everything is contingent on God does not mean that God micromanages the universe. Creation does not entail dictatorship.

OMNI - POTENT

it's funny how you seem to think god doesn't know what the hell is going on

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

If the discussion is about free will then "god" would "need" people who are truly good not people pretending to be good. people capable of disobeying but choose not to because that would be novel to god.

sure, so promising eternal reward for compliance

and promising eternal damnation for non-compliance

that doesn't seem the least bit coercive to you ?


isn't that a bit like me putting a gun to your head and then claiming you made a "free" choice ?

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

zombie is saying nothing can be separate because that entails some kind of broken logic.

right, if EVERYTHING was created by an omniscient omnipotent god

then that god knew the entire history of all things, BEFORE they were even created



for example,

i can't make a puppet, or a robot and then claim i'm not responsible for what that puppet or robot does, unless i claim to be incompetent



the only logical alternative is an imperfect god who makes a lot of mistakes

 

[Black Rose]

If the discussion is about free will then "god" would "need" people who are truly good not people pretending to be good. people capable of disobeying but choose not to because that would be novel to god.

sure, so promising eternal reward for compliance

and promising eternal damnation for non-compliance

that doesn't seem the least bit coercive to you ?


isn't that a bit like me putting a gun to your head and then claiming you made a "free" choice ?

you are making a big assumption

where do you get the notion that god rewards and punishes people? or that he does so in that particular way?

 

[Black Rose]

the only logical alternative is an imperfect god who makes a lot of mistakes

yes that is plausible

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

where do you get the notion that god rewards and punishes people? or that he does so in that particular way?

it's based on your premise - - "If the discussion is about free will then "god" would "need" people who are truly good not people pretending to be good. people capable of disobeying but choose not to because that would be novel to god."

are you suggesting that such a god would treat everyone exactly the same regardless of how "good" or "bad" they might act ?

 

[Black Rose]

it's based on your premise

I never said god eternally damns people, where did I say that?

 

[Black Rose]

are you suggesting that such a god would treat everyone exactly the same regardless of how "good" or "bad" they might act ?

depends on the type of god

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

I never said god eternally damns people, where did I say that?

the only god stories that involve written instructions for humans

involve THEISTIC gods

and all of these THEISTIC gods offer rewards to the "good"

and punishments for the "bad"

 

[Black Rose]

I never said god eternally damns people, where did I say that?

the only god stories that involve written instructions for humans

involve THEISTIC gods

and all of these THEISTIC gods offer rewards to the "good"

and punishments for the "bad"

what I am actually suggesting is that god would want a person to be morally good of their own accord. then god would want to interact with that person personally because they are special.

if god wants a special type of person they will create a universe to facilitate the creation of such persons.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

what I am actually suggesting is that god would want a person to be morally good of their own accord. then god would want to interact with that person personally because they are special.

if god wants a special type of person they will create a universe to facilitate the creation of such persons.

sure, that's very human

we want to think people like us and don't simply hang around and pretend to be our friends because they expect some reward or fear some punishment


but by all accounts, a god already knows everything about everyone

and any "immoral impulses" were placed there

very specifically by god

with the full knowledge of what behavior those impulses would lead to

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

if god wants a special type of person they will create a universe to facilitate the creation of such persons.

at no point can a god claim to be surprised that someone did something "good"

at no point can a god claim to be surprised that someone did something "bad"

 

[Black Rose]

if god wants a special type of person they will create a universe to facilitate the creation of such persons.

at no point can a god claim to be surprised that someone did something "good"

at no point can a god claim to be surprised that someone did something "bad"

a god may have an experience of qualia of good or bad events happening to any creature experiencing qualia.

so deciding what to create becomes important if god wants certain qualia experiences for themselves. (present and future)

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

a god may have an experience of qualia of good or bad events happening to any creature experiencing qualia.

sure,

however,

a god that has preferences cannot be omnipotent and omniscient

 

[ZenRaiden]

I had a major break, over the "if you are coerced its not free choice" I mean fuck this.
My life is a lie. NAAAAAAAH.
But how do I then know I made a free choice?

 

[Old Things]

Just because everything is contingent on God does not mean that God micromanages the universe. Creation does not entail dictatorship.

OMNI - POTENT

it's funny how you seem to think god doesn't know what the hell is going on

God knows everything. But Omniscience is different than Omnipotence. They are not synonymous.

I had a major break, over the "if you are coerced its not free choice" I mean fuck this.
My life is a lie. NAAAAAAAH.
But how do I then know I made a free choice?

It really is going to depend on your definition of Free Will. I have a different view than anything I have heard before because I do not believe it is a secret "power" that we have that allows us to choose outside of all circumstances, but I ground whether our will is free based on how close to the Truth we are. So I ground free will in truth rather than an invisible power. I think Truth literally is the power and that is not specific to any one individual. It is a transcendent thing, not an ingrained thing.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

I had a major break, over the "if you are coerced its not free choice" I mean fuck this.
My life is a lie. NAAAAAAAH.
But how do I then know I made a free choice?

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

God knows everything. But Omniscience is different than Omnipotence. They are not synonymous.

sure, but if god is the only actor (all power) = (omnipotent)

then god is the only force

this would seem to make god the only "micromanager"

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

I had a major break, over the "if you are coerced its not free choice" I mean fuck this.
My life is a lie. NAAAAAAAH.
But how do I then know I made a free choice?

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

God knows everything.

and is everything

 

[Old Things]

God knows everything. But Omniscience is different than Omnipotence. They are not synonymous.

sure, but if god is the only actor (all power) = (omnipotent)

then god is the only force

this would seem to make god the only "micromanager"

Do you believe, as a deist, that God takes a hands-off approach to his creation? Or he is intimately involved with everything that happens in creation? Or something else? What do you do with humans' ability to make choices? In other words, do you believe free will is an illusion like Sam Harris? If it is an illusion, then why would God give us this illusion in the first place?

 

[Black Rose]

In the Kabbalah, god recedes from himself to create.

So god gives some power to us by taking it away from himself.

In the beginning, god has all power but then gives some to us meaning god has less than he did before.

making choices is about god giving us some of his power.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Do you believe, as a deist, that God takes a hands-off approach to his creation? Or he is intimately involved with everything that happens in creation? Or something else? What do you do with humans' ability to make choices? In other words, do you believe free will is an illusion like Sam Harris? If it is an illusion, then why would God give us this illusion in the first place?

(IFF) everything is created by omniscient omnipotent creator (THEN) everything is necessarily part of and an extension of the ooc


free-will is simply an emotion


free-will is a feeling you get when you attempt to predict the future


ooc has perfect knowledge of the future, and therefore is not faced with the types of "choices" we face with our tiny human brains

 

[Black Rose]

(IFF) everything is created by omniscient omnipotent creator (THEN) everything is necessarily part of and an extension of the ooc

god contains all - but god gave us some of that "all"

free-will is simply an emotion

we all feel emotion to an extent - so would god

free-will is a feeling you get when you attempt to predict the future

most predictions come true at the base levels - higher uncertainty creates pleasant surprise but higher uncertainty creates noise and higher uncertainty creates fear

ooc has perfect knowledge of the future, and therefore is not faced with the types of "choices" we face with our tiny human brains

god would feel all things because god has all within god - then god would choose all things he would feel (as the one possible reality to exist ) but not be surprised by it.

 

[Old Things]

(IFF) everything is created by omniscient omnipotent creator (THEN) everything is necessarily part of and an extension of the ooc

That does not follow. It's like saying I can't create anything apart from my body which is not true. I can create a table, or a sculpture, or so many things and that does not mean I literally AM those things.

free-will is simply an emotion


free-will is a feeling you get when you attempt to predict the future

Free will is more than an emotion. If free will was only an emotion, then all our choices would be emotions and that is not true. I can tie my shoes without my emotions dictating a qualia of what it is like to tie my shoes.

ooc has perfect knowledge of the future, and therefore is not faced with the types of "choices" we face with our tiny human brains

Okay, I think you are wrong for this reason: miracles. They happen. I can demonstrate it. And these are things that require God to act withing time.

 

[Black Rose]

(IFF) everything is created by omniscient omnipotent creator (THEN) everything is necessarily part of and an extension of the ooc

That does not follow. It's like saying I can't create anything apart from my body which is not true. I can create a table, or a sculpture, or so many things and that does not mean I literally AM those things.

but god is not human.

what can be outside god?

things can be outside humans but not god.

free-will is simply an emotion


free-will is a feeling you get when you attempt to predict the future

Free will is more than an emotion. If free will was only an emotion, then all our choices would be emotions and that is not true. I can tie my shoes without my emotions dictating a qualia of what it is like to tie my shoes.

If you want to tie your shoe a want is a preference and any preference is by definition has to do with doing a thing because it is wanted. a want is an emotion to have it the way you want it to be because all subjective acts are things based on the qualia of it.

ooc has perfect knowledge of the future, and therefore is not faced with the types of "choices" we face with our tiny human brains

Okay, I think you are wrong for this reason: miracles. They happen. I can demonstrate it. And these are things that require God to act withing time.

a miracle is a choice god makes but god has perfect knowledge of all miracles god will do. humans cannot do miracles nor predict them thus a choice god makes (a miracle) is not a choice humans make.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

So god gives some power to us by taking it away from himself.

right, but before that happens, omniscient omnipotent god already knows how everything is going to play out

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

but god is not human.

what can be outside god?

things can be outside humans but not god.

bingo

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

That does not follow. It's like saying I can't create anything apart from my body which is not true. I can create a table, or a sculpture, or so many things and that does not mean I literally AM those things.

imagine you are omniscient omnipotent god

in the beginning

there is nothing

ex nihilo

just you and nothing else

and not "vast empty space"

because even "vast empty space" is technically SOMETHING
nothing
only god
alone


now, you make a cosmos

what do you make that cosmos out of ?

there is nothing

only god




nothing
only god
alone

 

[Black Rose]

If we want something we make a choice to get what we want and if we decide not to act that is also a choice because not acting was prioritised over acting. Any action or non-action based on choice is based on what is most important at a given moment even if we have long-term goals. We act in the moment and our memory gives us the ability to add up all choices for a goal. Prioritization is emotional because we do what we feel is necessary at any given moment. But prioritization is also a judgment, if we decide on something it is emotion and the awareness of causality together needed to reach some aim. I do x because I want y (and emotional judgment) and x will lead to y (a causal judgment). So long-term and short-term moment-to-moment emotional and causal choices are how we get to where we want to get to.

god knows all things he wants and all ways to get it. so god makes one decision because he has absolute certainty. humans are limited in knowing what to do and need to make multiple choices.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

so god makes one decision because he has absolute certainty

right, so, not exactly "free"

 

[Old Things]

imagine you are omniscient omnipotent god

I am not, so this is impossible.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

imagine you are omniscient omnipotent god

I am not, so this is impossible.

can you imagine being a computer programmer ?

 

[Old Things]

imagine you are omniscient omnipotent god

I am not, so this is impossible.

can you imagine being a computer programmer ?

Yes, but this does not mean I would know every single command let alone that it would mean I can actually program.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Yes, but this does not mean I would know every single command let alone that it would mean I can actually program.

sure, but you could run the program and see what the end result would be - - and then modify the program to achieve a different result

 

[Old Things]

Yes, but this does not mean I would know every single command let alone that it would mean I can actually program.

sure, but you could run the program and see what the end result would be - - and then modify the program to achieve a different result

Okay, sure. Now what?

 

[birdsnestfern]

Destiny and Free Will Work Together. You have destiny points that you have to go through on your chosen path before you are born, that YOUR SOUL chose to learn, but you have free will and can go off track as well.

 

[Old Things]

Destiny and Free Will Work Together. You have destiny points that you have to go through on your chosen path before you are born, that YOUR SOUL chose to learn, but you have free will and can go off track as well.

What is the evidence to support this?

 

[birdsnestfern]

Best one I know of is that saying 'on earth as it is in heaven'.


What you came to earth to learn is what your soul asked to learn.

But you can chose to go off your plan and make other choices which alter things.
If you chose to learn cooperation with others but your obstacle is avoidant personality, you are having to try harder than most people to learn that lesson. Free will and chosing not to cooperate might mean you will not get to learn cooperation for example. What Van Praagh says is follow your passion. This is how you know what your plan is by how passionate you feel about something. Synchronicity will guide you too.

For example, have you noticed how when you have a leap of faith and you are going in the right direction, everything falls into place? And obstacles will appear in areas to tell you you are off your track? Intuition helps guide you to your purpose. Free will are your actual choices. Intuition is your guide post. So now, think of what it feels like to use both. When something keeps repeating itself with relationships or situations, it might be guiding you to chose something.

 

[Old Things]

what can be outside god?

His creation.

If you want to tie your shoe a want is a preference and any preference is by definition has to do with doing a thing because it is wanted. a want is an emotion to have it the way you want it to be because all subjective acts are things based on the qualia of it.

What if I don't want to tie my shoes but I have to tie my shoes?

If we want something we make a choice to get what we want and if we decide not to act that is also a choice because not acting was prioritised over acting. Any action or non-action based on choice is based on what is most important at a given moment even if we have long-term goals. We act in the moment and our memory gives us the ability to add up all choices for a goal. Prioritization is emotional because we do what we feel is necessary at any given moment. But prioritization is also a judgment, if we decide on something it is emotion and the awareness of causality together needed to reach some aim. I do x because I want y (and emotional judgment) and x will lead to y (a causal judgment). So long-term and short-term moment-to-moment emotional and causal choices are how we get to where we want to get to.

god knows all things he wants and all ways to get it. so god makes one decision because he has absolute certainty. humans are limited in knowing what to do and need to make multiple choices.

This is just post-modern subjectivity.

 

[Old Things]

Best one I know of is that saying 'on earth as it is in heaven'.


What you came to earth to learn is what your soul asked to learn.

But you can chose to go off your plan and make other choices which alter things.
If you chose to learn cooperation with others but your obstacle is avoidant personality, you are having to try harder than most people to learn that lesson. Free will might mean you will not to learn cooperation for example. What Van Praagh says is follow your passion. This is how you know what your plan is by how passionate you feel about something.

You can't just take a Bible verse completely out of context remove from all ideas of what the person meant when they said it and call it Christianity. I don't have a problem with your new-age views but don't insult me by calling it Christianity.

I would simply ask you why you don't have a soul for your soul, and that that soul has a soul, etc. Your interpretation stops at just one prior experience before you are born because this life is all you know. So you are reaching for the mystical but completely unhinged from any and all evidence. It's like believing in the multiverse to get away from the fact that the universe had a beginning so therefore God exists. People can come up with all kinds of theories, but if there is no evidence to back up those ideas, there is zero incentive to believe them.

 

[Black Rose]

what can be outside god?

His creation.

If something is outside god then god would be unable to predict what that thing would do. It would become random to god, outside gods knowledge because things can only be known if they are inside you.

If you want to tie your shoe a want is a preference and any preference is by definition has to do with doing a thing because it is wanted. a want is an emotion to have it the way you want it to be because all subjective acts are things based on the qualia of it.

What if I don't want to tie my shoes but I have to tie my shoes?

Then that is a negative qualia.

If we want something we make a choice to get what we want and if we decide not to act that is also a choice because not acting was prioritised over acting. Any action or non-action based on choice is based on what is most important at a given moment even if we have long-term goals. We act in the moment and our memory gives us the ability to add up all choices for a goal. Prioritization is emotional because we do what we feel is necessary at any given moment. But prioritization is also a judgment, if we decide on something it is emotion and the awareness of causality together needed to reach some aim. I do x because I want y (and emotional judgment) and x will lead to y (a causal judgment). So long-term and short-term moment-to-moment emotional and causal choices are how we get to where we want to get to.

god knows all things he wants and all ways to get it. so god makes one decision because he has absolute certainty. humans are limited in knowing what to do and need to make multiple choices.

This is just post-modern subjectivity.

How so?

Are you saying we as humans have infinite knowledge?

Are you saying some things are not more or less important than others and that emotions and causality have no relation to each other?

What I said has a firm basis in neuroscience and I can explain that if you wish.

 

[Old Things]

If something is outside god then god would be unable to predict what that thing would do. It would become random to god, outside gods knowledge because things can only be known if they are inside you.

Why?

Then that is a negative qualia.

Never heard of that. Explain what it is.

How so?

Are you saying we as humans have infinite knowledge?

Are you saying some things are not more or less important than others and that emotions and causality have no relation to each other?

What I said has a firm basis in neuroscience and I can explain that if you wish.

Because you make desires the central focus.

What gave you the idea that I think humans have infinite knowledge? You know I don't believe that.

I'm saying qualia is more than just emotions.

Please explain how everything we do can be reduced to animalistic desires.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Yes, but this does not mean I would know every single command let alone that it would mean I can actually program.

sure, but you could run the program and see what the end result would be - - and then modify the program to achieve a different result

Okay, sure. Now what?

right, so if you're programming a universe

and you can run tests as many times as you wish

then when you finally get the result you want

then you would publish

 

[birdsnestfern]

I recommend that you watch the video - he talks to spirits on the other side and knows this stuff more than any of us.

If you know that you are created in Gods image, then everything he can do, you can do in macro vs microcosms.

 

[Old Things]

Yes, but this does not mean I would know every single command let alone that it would mean I can actually program.

sure, but you could run the program and see what the end result would be - - and then modify the program to achieve a different result

Okay, sure. Now what?

right, so if you're programming a universe

and you can run tests as many times as you wish

then when you finally get the result you want

then you would publish

Analogies of God and creation don't work. They all fail on some level or another. For example, in your example, you have already admitted that God is not omniscient. So it goes against your own idea of God.

 

[Black Rose]

If something is outside god then god would be unable to predict what that thing would do. It would become random to god, outside gods knowledge because things can only be known if they are inside you.

Why?

To have complete knowledge of something you need to have a full representation of it inside you. If not then some part of it may become something you did not anticipate.

Then that is a negative qualia.

Never heard of that. Explain what it is.

All qualia is something either that feels good feels bad or feels neutral.

Not getting what you want would feel bad and thus be a negative quality.

How so?

Are you saying we as humans have infinite knowledge?

Are you saying some things are not more or less important than others and that emotions and causality have no relation to each other?

What I said has a firm basis in neuroscience and I can explain that if you wish.

Because you make desires the central focus.

What gave you the idea that I think humans have infinite knowledge? You know I don't believe that.

I'm saying qualia is more than just emotions.

Please explain how everything we do can be reduced to animalistic desires.

Given what I said: Humans have limits in what they can know and must decide what they want based on some kind of priority. Wants do not need to be just animalistic but they do need to be based on good or bad feelings. You do stuff because it is wanted or not wanted and that means you have to base those wants on something and that means it has to be based on good or bad because you cannot just do stuff based on no reason at all. At all levels of good and bad, we decide what is and is not important on a hierarchy of values. Some things are more good or bad than others and the way we make choices is based on our relation to how we understand causality in achieving those prioritized aims. Qualia is either good bad or neutral meaning qualia and emotions cannot be separated. Emotion is not just "animalistic desire". Emotion is related to all qualia because any action we make depends on good or bad in regard to choice. Emotion is related to all higher values.

 

[Old Things]

I recommend that you watch the video - he talks to spirits on the other side and knows this stuff more than any of us.

If you know that you are created in Gods image, then everything he can do, you can do in macro vs microcosms.

He talks to demons.

The topic of what it means to be made in God's image is a very debatable thing. I don't think you came along and read it in Genesis once and now know what it means. You are taking your new-age beliefs and inserting them into the Bible. The Bible does not function that way. You have to understand what it is the author of the Biblical text was trying to say before you can give your interpretation. And this must be done by taking into consideration what the rest of the Bible says. You cannot just pluck a verse out of the Bible, give your own new-age take on that verse, and think you have exegeted the verse/passage.

 

[birdsnestfern]

That is really silly because NONE of us knows - so a new age thought is just as valid as any other. Religion is not science.
And, a demon has a very different feeling from a regular spirit that has passed on. That is why intuition is a far better judge than anything else. And now we are off topic because the topic is free will, not religion. JVP would understand the difference between a spirit and other entity, he is very spiritually adept.