Moved: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

[peoplesuck]

post your thoughts

 

[Cherry Cola]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

No. Evolution is slow, over-population is recent.

 

[peoplesuck]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

I thought i had a good question awell

 

[Cherry Cola]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

Well it wasn't a bad question, trying to find an evolutionary cause for homosexuality is quite interesting :P

 

[Grayman]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

Do larger populations show a greater percentage being homosexual?

 

[peoplesuck]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

someone check japan, its supper clustered.

 

[Grayman]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

No. Evolution is slow, over-population is recent.

Genetic mutations are slow but some adaptations exist as dormant genes that awake during specific situations.

 

[StevenM]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

I don't think it's an adaptation.

I thought there has been evidence of homosexuality existing in much earlier times. Perhaps, it has just always existed. A reason for it existing, unknown.

 

[Lot]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

Evolution is an unguided random process.

Do you even science?

 

[doncarlzone]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

someone check japan, its supper clustered.

Japan is an interesting example. They're barely having any kids anymore. This is not due to homosexuality but due to education and the fact that they prefer having intimate relationships with their modern tamagotchis.

 

[peoplesuck]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

Even the girls 0_o?

 

[doncarlzone]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

Even the girls 0_o?

No I think it's just the men

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An29bdpaY70

 

[kris]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

Do larger populations show a greater percentage being homosexual?

Currently, this is probably not reliably testable. It's been a methodological problem for many studies thus far. Homosexual identity relies primarily on self-identification, but as we know there are many factors which discourage openness.

Look at the demographic breakdown here, specifically age:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/158066/special-report-adults-identify-lgbt.aspx

Not saying there aren't clever ways to get estimates on incidence of homosexuality, but it would be difficult to use those estimates for this purpose, I would think.

 

[peoplesuck]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

that is interesting. japan sounds cool for desperate people xD(guys)

 

[Cherry Cola]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

Genetic mutations are slow but some adaptations exist as dormant genes that awake during specific situations.

Do you happen to know anywhere I might read up on this phenomenon?

 

[peoplesuck]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

does anyone know if drugs can make books better?

 

[kris]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

Evolution is an unguided random process.

It's not random. Mutations and other variables likely are, but not evolution on the whole.

 

[Grayman]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

Evolution is an unguided random process.

No evidence suggests this. In fact evolution tends to be more beneficial than not.

Edit: what he said....


Anyways, I wonder if the body can control its immune system with such positive proficiency adapting to the enviroment, why cannot it control the genes that we pass on?

 

[Hawkeye]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

that is interesting. japan sounds cool for desperate people xD(guys)

私は自分のベストを尽くします!






Evolution is guided by success.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

Genetic mutations are slow but some adaptations exist as dormant genes that awake during specific situations.

Reading up on it, I think it highly unlikely that homosexuality could've been triggered that way on a global scale in such short time.

It also begs the question of where these genes would've come from in the first place.

 

[Lot]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

No evidence suggests this. In fact evolution tends to be more beneficial than not.

Wishful thinking. Maybe you should join the Discovery institute

 

[Grayman]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

Wishful thinking. Maybe you should join the Discovery institute

Non beneficial evolution dies out. Or maybe you are speaking of the other stuff I posted. Just a creative thought.


I assumed nothing. You assumed that evolution is not guided by some means. . It is less plausible but not impossible until you can prove otherwise.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

Non beneficial evolution dies out. Or maybe you are speaking of the other stuff I posted. Just a creative thought.


I assumed nothing. You assumed that evolution is not guided by some means. . It is less plausible but not impossible until you can prove otherwise.

Nothing is impossible, you can never prove a negative. Is there any reason to think that evolution is guided by some means? Elsewise: spaghetti monster.

 

[Grayman]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

Nothing is impossible, you can never prove a negative. Is there any reason to think that evolution is guided by some means? Elsewise: spaghetti monster.

No more reason than you have to believe it random.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

Random is just a way of saying "we don't know" but with a label. I don't know.

I thought you just said a purpose-driven evolution was less plausible? That doesn't fit together with there being no more reason to believe it random.

 

[Hawkeye]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

Evolution isn't an actively intelligent design; it's merely a method of trial and error.

Mutations occur by accident and if the mutation survives, it is passed down to future generations. These mutations accumulate overtime to produce new species.

BOOM! Evolution.

It is not random. Nothing evolves randomly because there is a method to evolution which is genetic succession.

 

[Lot]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

Mutations occur by accident and if the mutation survives, it is passed down to future generations. These mutations accumulate overtime to produce new species.
.

Yes, random.

 

[Hawkeye]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

Yes, random.

Mutations are random; however evolution is an accumulation of successful mutations, ergo not random.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

Depends on where you draw the line.

 

[Grayman]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

To me

Random is just a way of saying "we don't know" but with a label. I don't know.

I thought you just said a purpose-driven evolution was less plausible? That doesn't fit together with there being no more reason to believe it random.

To me, random means without reason or design. Consequential.

Yes, I contradicted myself because I would rather it be random but it is possible that it is all planned. If it is all planned I worry what kind of planner we have. I realized my sway based on this emotion and came to the conclusion that both have equal evidence or no evidence.

 

[Hawkeye]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

MISCONCEPTION: Evolutionary theory implies that life evolved (and continues to evolve) randomly, or by chance.

CORRECTION: Chance and randomness do factor into evolution and the history of life in many different ways; however, some important mechanisms of evolution are non-random and these make the overall process non-random. For example, consider the process of natural selection, which results in adaptations — features of organisms that appear to suit the environment in which the organisms live (e.g., the fit between a flower and its pollinator, the coordinated response of the immune system to pathogens, and the ability of bats to echolocate). Such amazing adaptations clearly did not come about "by chance." They evolved via a combination of random and non-random processes. The process of mutation, which generates genetic variation, is random, but selection is non-random. Selection favored variants that were better able to survive and reproduce (e.g., to be pollinated, to fend off pathogens, or to navigate in the dark). Over many generations of random mutation and non-random selection, complex adaptations evolved. To say that evolution happens "by chance" ignores half of the picture. To learn more about the process of natural selection, visit our article on this topic. To learn more about random mutation, visit our article on DNA and mutations.

Béarnaise

 

[kris]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

Random is just a way of saying "we don't know" but with a label. I don't know.

I could agree or disagree with this statement.
Agree: true absolute randomness is a difficult concept to grasp. It may exist, but at the level of genetic mutation, perhaps it still falls within the realm of causal determinism. Truth be told, I'm not informed enough to meaningfully comment.

Disagree: in the context of evolution, it means that mutation is aimless with regard to the process of evolution. Gene insertion, for instance, doesn't happen for the sake of creating survival advantages in the host organism; it occurs and may incidentally be advantageous, neutral or disadvantageous. It's a random variable. Perhaps not all mutation is random, but unless I am mistaken, random mutation is still a prevalent and accepted concept.

 

[Base groove]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

Evolution is an unguided random process.

Do you even science?

Thank you, Lot! Fireworks and everything.

 

[Base groove]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

Mutations are random; however evolution is an accumulation of successful mutations, ergo not random.

I disagree strongly with this. Evolution is purposeless, random. Absolutely purposeless. Instances where it is deemed successful are a matter of probability AND happenstance, only.

Yeah I continued reading and saw your attempts to prove it. I remain unconvinced. Simply because there are complex/higher order adaptations that require successful implementation of earlier adaptations,

does not rule out the possibility that there exist many possible adaptations that could also enable the evolution of the same complex adaptation, a similar, or even a better one.

Explain how this is not just an application of the anthropic principle?

 

[Hawkeye]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

I disagree strongly with this. Evolution is purposeless, random. Absolutely purposeless. Instances where it is deemed successful are a matter of probability AND happenstance, only.

You are confusing mutation (isolated instances) with evolution; mutations are random.

 

[Base groove]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

I formally request THD to join this conversation; I am not well equipped to battle Hawkeye on this matter (affirmation that he is correct is sufficient).

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

rofl...

*reads thread*

 

[Base groove]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

Mutations occur by accident and if the mutation survives, it is passed down to future generations. These mutations accumulate overtime to produce new species.

BOOM! Evolution.

Well for one thing I've been told before this is actually speciation. We're not really talking about speciation here, are we?

 

[kris]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

I disagree strongly with this. Evolution is purposeless, random. Absolutely purposeless. Instances where it is deemed successful are a matter of probability AND happenstance, only.

Purpose isn't the point of contention; it's directionality. Evolution is directed toward survival and propagation. Success is defined by propagation due to its usefulness in the whole existence affair we have going on here. With no regard to purpose whatsoever, when we describe the process of evolution, we can see that there are random and non-random factors in how genetic changes occur over time.

It's not a purpose; it's a pattern. The confusing aspect is that humans may very well draw a large amount of our sense of purpose from that pattern.

 

[Hawkeye]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

Well for one thing I've been told before this is actually speciation. We're not really talking about speciation here, are we?

Speciation: the formation of new and distinct species in the course of evolution.

It's directly related to evolution and completely relevant. ^^

 

[Base groove]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

It's directly related to evolution and completely relevant. ^^

Oh ok so that's relevant but when you accuse me of 'confusing adaptation./mutation with evolution' it's the crux of your argument...

A reminder I referred to 'second-order/higher-order adaptations that compound previously existing adaptations'...
And that repetitive application of this logic ad infinitum finally results in the anthropic principle of cosmology....

Just so we can move forward I want to be clear that I am accurate on this.

 

[Hawkeye]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

Oh ok so that's relevant but when you accuse me of 'confusing adaptation./mutation with evolution' it's the crux of your argument...

Just so we can move forward I want to be clear that I am accurate on this.

I'm not saying that there isn't a random aspect to evolution. I've already stated that mutations are random accidents, although they are limited in their randomness*.

My point is that evolution is the overall process which is not random because it relies on natural selection. Survival of the fittest is not a random event, the fittest survive.

If it were all random, we would not inherit physical traits from our parents.


*Two humans could not conceive a puppy due to mutation (as awesome as that would be).

 

[Base groove]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

My point is that evolution is the overall process which is not random because it relies on natural selection. Survival of the fittest is not a random event, the fittest survive.

Fitness is random. It's directly determined by environmental conditions, which are random.

Fitness rises and falls with the tides.

It's relative fitness not absolute fitness, anyway. Relative fitness has very little to do with being tailored to the environment, itself.

 

[Hawkeye]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

Fitness is random. It's directly determined by environmental conditions, which are random.

Fitness rises and falls with the tides.

That is not how random works.

 

[Variform]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

No. Evolution is slow, over-population is recent.

But adaptability is fast. Research shows that plant species can adapt very quickly to changing circumstances, within a few generations.

 

[Variform]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

Evolution is an unguided random process.

Do you even science?

I don't know if I believe is is random and undirected. There are several ways I could argue for it not to be so.

 

[Happy]

Re: could homosexuality be an adaption of an overpopulated world?

Mutations are random; however evolution is an accumulation of successful mutations, ergo not random.

I agree with Hawkeye.

Mutations happen at random. Therefore, they are random.

Although the mutation may be random, evolution is dependent on a few basic conditions. Firstly, the mutated organism must live long enough to reproduce. Secondly, the mutated organism must be successful in reproduction. Thirdly, the gene containing the mutation must be passed on (which is not always the case). Therefore, seeing as the mutation can only continue to exist IF it meets these conditions, the evolutionary process is NOT random.

Evolution is instead the result of a sorting process.

This conclusion is independent of whether intelligent design exists or not.

Anyway, back on topic:

Could homosexuality be an adaptation of an overpopulated world?

I don't think so. The way I see it (and I very well may be wrong), is that homosexuality is the result of environmental factors. i.e. the homosexual individual's own life experiences. I'm not saying that I think there is some underlying cause of homosexuality. Rather, I'm saying that I think it's a result of the individual's thought processes as they develop into maturity.


I don't believe that a growing homosexual population is an adaptation to anything other than homosexuality being more widely discussed and tolerated/accepted.

[Tangent time! Yay!]
Imagine that sometime in the future, homosexuality did become a societal adaptation - i.e. people are homosexual for the purpose of reducing the population. This would need some sort of intelligent input. I wonder what would happen if the societal viewpoint on homosexuality somehow did shift this way - Someone would have to instigate change in world perspectives against homosexuality (tradition, religious beliefs, commonly held ideas, etc. would have to be rejected). How would this come about? What if people actually started making the choice to become homosexual in order to reduce the population? I feel this would make for an interesting future for our species.

[Tangent time again!]
Let's say that homosexuality is somehow a genetic adaptation. In order for homosexuality to be an adaptation, it would have to have been an inherited trait to begin with, yes? If that were true, then a decent number of the population would have to be homosexual AND still reproducing regardless. Therefore in this scenario - whether you're gay or not, your parent(s) might be gay

[And finally, here's a question that should probably have its own thread, but oh well...]
I believe that there will be a catalyst within the next say 50 years or so that will act to control human population. If this were true, what do you think it will be? Natural disaster? Disease? Famine? War? Zombie apocalypse? Aliens? Megafauna clones that take position at the top of the food chain?

 

[Jennywocky]

Well, there are multiple root causes for the expression of homosexual behavior. (Even a het person in terms of inclination could choose to have sex with a same-sex partner just by force of will, which is "homosexual behavior.") But self-identification as gay seems to be conjunction of bio and environment.

The thing is that gay behavior isn't just a puberty thing. For kids who express strong gender variant behavior, only about 25% of those who go LGBT end up as trans; the majority end up with a gay inclination but are secure in their bio gender identity. This kind of gender variant behavior happens so young as to seem inborn; for some reason, the child is modeling behavior of the other gender. It might be hard to accept that, until you see it happen in front of your face.

Sexual attraction and repulsion seems to be pretty deep-seated. People usually can't casually decide to long-term have sex with same-sex partners. The best example of the behavior I can think of is prison -- but typically it's an expression of power within the social structure of incarceration, and usually the partners are at best surrogates and are imagined as such and you can see people regardless of gender playing certain specific gendered roles to compensate for only one gender being imprisoned in the same locale. To cut to the end point, I really don't see straight males EVER being willing to be "gay" in order to reduce the world's population; I could see them choosing abstinence before exclusively having sex with other men to satisfy their sexual needs.

 

[peoplesuck]

If it was a genetic adaptation how would it be passed on?

 

[nanook]

do you think our bodies listen to the news, hear a mathematical figure somewhere around 7 something and the story of how that is just too much people (to be sustained by the animal product industry) and our bodies freak out and turn gay? they would sooner raise our sensitivity to how animal products are no appropriate food anyway, from a health perspective.

however overpopulation becomes visible be to our bodies, it's not a new signal.
it might be a shortage of nutrients. which is an old story. alpha monkey feasts, nothing left for omega monkey.

homosexuality isn't new either.

i make no claims about the actual cause of homosexuality, but it's a possible hypothesis.
it might be related to malnutrition.